Electric cars 'won't cut global warming emissions'

[Javaman]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7764316/Electric-cars-wont-cut-global-warming-emissions.html

Success depended on the availability of ''green'' electricity and overcoming a number of major technical problems, said the Royal Academy of Engineering.

Professor Roger Kemp, from Lancaster University, who chaired the Academy's Electric Vehicles working group, said: ''Swapping gas guzzlers for electric vehicles will not solve our carbon emissions problem on its own.


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Nissan expected to build electric cars in UK''When most electricity in Britain is still generated by burning gas and coal, the difference between an electric car and a small, low-emission petrol or diesel car is negligible.

''We welcome the fact that the motor manufacturers are so ready to take on the challenge of developing mass market electric vehicles. We also welcome the new Government's commitment to mandating charging sockets for electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids, but establishing these as the technology of choice for personal transport is only one aspect of what is needed to reduce transport emissions.''

[no limit]

1. They will if the electric power is generated by nuclear in addition to renewable sources

[dmallind]

2. But they are necessary to do so effectively

I have never understood people, especially educated people, who think "this one thing will not solve the problem on its own" is a valid refutation of "we should do this thing to help solve the problem".

If Britain converted to wind and hydro and solar (hell there is SOME sun there I've seen it) but did NOT change to electric cars as well it wouldn't solve the problem either, because we'd still have the pollution from tailpipes.

And of course I find it rather disingenuous when people immediately jumpt to the upchain production of electricity as an issue for EVs but never seem to account for the pollution of the upchain production of gasoline when using ICE's as a comparsion (and I mean even normal pollution, not the topical risk of spills).

[kristopher]

3. They also never compare the use of gasoline to generate electricity for EVs.

However we do have a good analogy in the study below that compares the performance of ethanol used in an ICE or used to provide electricity for electric vehicles. The conclusion is that it is better to burn the hydrocarbon for electricity for EVs than to put it an an automobile's internal combustion engine.

In general, an electric vehicle powered with the typical coal natural gas mix in the grid will have approximately the same carbon emissions as an ICE auto getting about 50mpg. Of course that increases with any noncarbon generation added to the grid. In contrast, Ford might think they can provide consumers with vehicles that get 50mpg but I have to ask where do they go from there? That is the lower limit for electrics and it is the upper limit for internal combustion engines.


However that misses a much more important point, which is that electric vehicles are an enabling technology for a renewable grid. In aggregate an electric vehicle fleet represents a vast storage resource that enables large and rapid increases in renewable power generation.

Published Online May 7, 2009
Science DOI: 10.1126/science.1168885

Science Express Index
Reports

Submitted on November 24, 2008
Accepted on April 15, 2009

Greater Transportation Energy and GHG Offsets from Bioelectricity Than Ethanol
J. E. Campbell 1*, D. B. Lobell 2, C. B. Field 3

1 College of Engineering, University of California, Merced, CA 95344, USA.; Sierra Nevada Research Institute, University of California, Merced, CA 95344, USA.
2 Program on Food Security and the Environment, Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305, USA.
3 Department of Global Ecology, Carnegie Institution of Washington, Stanford, CA 94305, USA.

* To whom correspondence should be addressed.
J. E. Campbell , E-mail: ecampbell3{at}ucmerced.edu

The quantity of land available to grow biofuel crops without impacting food prices or greenhouse gas emissions from land conversion is limited. Therefore, bioenergy should maximize land-use efficiency when addressing transportation and climate change goals. Biomass could power either internal combustion or electric vehicles, but the relative land-use efficiency of these two energy pathways is not well quantified. Here, we show that bioelectricity outperforms ethanol across a range of feedstocks, conversion technologies, and vehicle classes. Bioelectricity produces an average 81% more transportation kilometers and 108% more emissions offsets per unit area cropland than cellulosic ethanol. These results suggest that alternative bioenergy pathways have large differences in how efficiently they use the available land to achieve transportation and climate goals.

[dmallind]

5. Good info - the key here of course is is symbiotic (metaphorically) solutions

It's not just EVs, but EV's with smart grids maximizing renewables focused where these sources CAN replace fossil fuels.

For example aircraft are going to take a lot longer to "green" than cars - so let's take away as much demand as we can for oil from cars so that we can keep flying. The last thing we want to do is use up all the oil on stuff where easy alternatives are sitting there waiting to be deployed.

[jtrockville]

4. It's a step in the right direction. Energy can be clean and safe if...

we abandon filthy fossil and risky nukes.

[JohnWxy]

6. Electric Cars Could Slash Global Warming by 2050 (but Harm Our Air)

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/4219512

[joshcryer]

7. It all depends on where the primary source of power comes from.

For the vast majority of people it would result in a net emission drop, simply because of efficiency.

[guardian]

8. Are you a tea bagger?

Why are you citing articles from a right wing newspaper? Don't you know articles published in the UK Telegraph are unreliable and not to be believed?

[wtmusic]

9. Bullshit title.

The forgot "on its own". Big difference. :eyes:

Also from the report: "Electric vehicles and plug-in hybrid electric vehicles stand at a crossroads in terms of becoming viable, mass market options for the UK to radically reduce CO2 emissions from transport."

[Zoroastor]

10. but provocative

we read it didn't we?

Latest news: New Wind Farm Experiences Massive Wind Spill. Nothing Affected, No One Minds.

[JohnWxy]

11. Electric Power REsearch Institute study speculated 42% of fleet could be PHEVs by 2030

IF on average, PHEVs reduced fuel use, say 80% that still would come to 32% emissions reductions BEFORE you considered the increase in emissions from the additional demand for electric power. There isn't a bigger promoter of wind-power and solar power than I am, but realistically, in 20 years we will be lucky if we can reduce coal's share of the power production from 50% down to 40%. Hopefully, we will. But even with coal down to 40% you still are going to have not inconsiderable emissions from generating electric power which reduces the GHG emissons reductions (stated above) for PHEVs. So even if we could get 32% reductions for automobiles, how much will electric power emissions reduce that 32%, down to 26% - 27%? (obviously, depends on the mix of fuel sources and how much wind and solar will be contributing .. in 20 years).

So, it's obvious that electric cars are not going to be able to do it alone. But I don't expect this to be realized by enough people until it won't matter. Once global warming get's going too fast, we won't be able to achieve enough emissions reductions to rein it in.



* http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/4219512

"today’s report, co-authored by the Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) and the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), considers a future where 42 percent of the total U.S. auto fleet consists of PHEVs by 2030"


"Of course, the NRDC-EPRI report assumes a drastic increase in plug-in sales in the next two decades (42 percent is admittedly high, EPRI’s Mark Duvall says)". ( Dr. Mark Duvall is Program Manager, Electric Transportation at the Electric Power Research Institute.__JW)

http://my.epri.com/portal/server.pt?open=514&objID=223132&mode=2">Electric Power Research Institute study site