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AP: As climate talks drag on, more ponder techno-fixes (geoengineering)

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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 06:03 PM
Original message
AP: As climate talks drag on, more ponder techno-fixes (geoengineering)
Edited on Sat Dec-04-10 06:05 PM by OKIsItJustMe
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CLIMATE_BROKEN_TABOO
Dec 4, 7:08 AM EST

As climate talks drag on, more ponder techno-fixes

By CHARLES J. HANLEY
AP Special Correspondent

CANCUN, Mexico (AP) -- Like the warming atmosphere above, a once-taboo idea hangs over the slow, frustrating U.N. talks to curb climate change: the idea to tinker with the atmosphere or the planet itself, pollute the skies to ward off the sun, fill the oceans with gas-eating plankton, do whatever it takes.

As climate negotiators grew more discouraged in recent months, U.S. and British government bodies urged stepped-up studies of such "geoengineering." The U.N. climate science network decided to assess the options. And a range of new research moved ahead in America and elsewhere.

"The taboo is broken," Paul Crutzen, a Nobel Prize-winning atmospheric scientist, told The Associated Press.

Whatever the doubts, "we are amazingly farther up the road on geoengineering," Crutzen, who wrote a 2006 scientific article that sparked interest in geoengineering, said by telephone from Germany.

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pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Why not?
All we have to do is re-create the biosphere. :banghead:
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Re: All we have to do is re-create the biosphere.
We've already done that.

How about if this time, we do it with some forethought about what we're doing? eh?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 03:37 AM
Response to Original message
3. Yep, the elites don't give a shit about averting, it's all about adapting now.
The number of geoengineering research papers is skyrocketing. The scientists are now finding that's where the real grant money is.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Or put another way
Scientists have come to realize that society will not stop burning carbon overnight, just because it might kill them, any more than many individuals will quit smoking tobacco (even though the science is clear.)
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Scientists still do not consider geoengineering the right way to go.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Well, that's a rather vague statement
How many scientists?

Of what sorts?

Are they dead set against any sort of geoengineering? Or do they simply feel that it would be best if the ecosystem were able to handle things on their own?

Are any reputable scientists seriously looking at geoengineering?

http://www.issues.org/26.4/jackson.html
ROBERT B. JACKSON
JAMES SALZMAN

Pursuing Geoengineering for Atmospheric Restoration

Geoengineering is fraught with problems, but research on three approaches could lead to the greatest climate benefits with the smallest chance of unintentional environmental harm.

A few decades ago, the notion of actively controlling Earth’s climate resided primarily in the writings of science fiction authors such as Frank Herbert, Isaac Asimov, and Arthur C. Clarke. Today, planetary engineering is being discussed openly by scientists and policymakers in Congress, the UK House of Commons, and many other settings. Clarke’s advice apparently struck a chord: “Politicians should read science fiction, not westerns and detective stories.”

Geoengineering can be thought of as intentionally manipulating Earth’s climate to offset the warming from greenhouse gas emissions. Its activities can be divided into two loose groups. One set of options cools Earth by removing carbon dioxide (CO2) and other greenhouse gases from air, essentially reversing the process of fossil fuel emissions. The other cools the planet by blocking or reflecting sunlight, offsetting the consequences of increased greenhouse gases for temperature but leaving the buildup of greenhouse gas concentrations unchecked.

Several developments have fueled the rise of geoengineering from fiction to possible reality in a remarkably short period of time. The first is our inability to reduce greenhouse gas emissions in any substantive way. A wealth of scientific evidence shows that Earth’s climate is already changing because of such gases, posing a threat to people and other animals and to plants. A second factor is the concern that some planetary engineering may already be needed to reduce the harmful effects of climate change, even if emissions fall in the future. A third is the hope that geoengineering could be cheaper than cutting emissions, even if it treats only a symptom of climate change, not the root cause.

The promise and peril of geoengineering raise a host of unanswered questions. Will such approaches actually work? If they do work, who will control Earth’s thermostat? What other environmental consequences might arise? Where would effects be the greatest, keeping in mind that the environmental consequences should be compared not just against our world today but against a future world with rapid climate change?



Our climate is already changing, and we need to explore at least some kinds of carbon-removal technologies, because energy efficiency and renewables cannot take CO2 out of the air once it’s there. Some scientists increasingly argue that we need to do research on sunshade technologies as a backup plan if climate change starts to accelerate dangerously. This argument has merit. However, the sooner we invest in and make progress on reducing greenhouse gas emissions today and promote ways to restore the atmosphere through carbon-scrubbing technologies in the future, the less likely we are ever to need global sunshades. The principle of atmospheric restoration should guide us in curing climate change outright, not in treating a few of its symptoms.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. Climatologists maybe?
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 04:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. I'm looking into my crystal ball
and I am seeing that any possible geoengineering solution big enough to make a difference will wind up fucking us sideways.

I think we should leave that shit the hell alone.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. That's a real risk
On the other hand, at this point, if we don't try geoengineering, we are certainly going to be.

Before we got into the picture, the ecosystem disposed of about 1ppm in oh… 1,000 years or so…

Now, we have fewer sinks, more carbon sources… how long do you suppose it would take for nature to clean things up if we all stopped burning carbon tomorrow (as if that would happen?)
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Goodbye red sunsets.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. What exactly do you mean by that?
The sunset will still be red.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. I probably should've said blue skies.
Edited on Mon Dec-06-10 04:39 AM by joshcryer
The sunset will still be red on clear days but it will be more orange typically.
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I agree
I think we should focus on low tech, proven methods of carbon sequestration. Reforestation, coppicing for biochar production, and converting our tilled monoculture corn & soybean farms to grass would be a good start.
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Which is also geoengineering
Edited on Sun Dec-05-10 09:23 PM by OKIsItJustMe
Biochar (for example) is not natural. It's still humanity attempting to shape the climate.

So, you're not against geoengineering, you’re simply against certain methods of geoengineering.
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AlecBGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. correct
I should have been more clear. I oppose the methods being discussed: seeding the oceans with iron & micronutrients; space-based solar shields, intentional large-scale release of sulfur dioxide; carbon sequestration into underground geologic formations.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
9. Honestly, very soon geoengineering will be our only option.
Edited on Sun Dec-05-10 02:20 PM by jimlup
This is serious and getting more so with each passing year. When we hit 2050, I think it will be geoengineering or death of species human. Well, that choice is kinda obvious isn't it?
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OKIsItJustMe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Much better to start work earlier...
...rather than trying desperately when it's already too late.
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jimlup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Yeah, lots of luck with that...
Edited on Mon Dec-06-10 02:27 PM by jimlup
I'm not being cynical just realistically reacting to what I'm seeing happening before my eyes. I honestly don't see the necessary changes happening before it is on the verge of seriously too late. The powers that be seem incapable of action and the people have haplessly little to offer in the way of democratic change. I'm all in favor of changes to make geo-engineering unneeded. But on the other hand, I'd rather my great-grandchildren actually have a planet that they can live on.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
12. Pathetic
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-05-10 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. As A Kid
I thought that the stories of lemmings was fiction. How could an animal be so stupid.

I now might believe anything.

Science requires that an experiment be documented such that it may be repeated and the results be the same.

Then engineering may take those scientific findings and implement them for society.

The whole thing is screwed up. And politicians now define every thing.

It is probably too late to reverse the change for the foreseeable future. Our only hope now is not to make it worse.

Lemmings are smarter than humans.

At least ants and bees exist for the community.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Geoengineering will always have uncertainity.
It's not like engineering a bridge, where materials have known properties. We can never ever know the full properties of a chaotic atmospheric system.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-06-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
21. "Gosh, really?"
Thanks to the deliberate delays from the pro-commercial parties in charge
of most major nations, there is now more "incentive" than ever to plug
any hare-brained plan to continue with "Business As Usual" - as long as there
is a short-term profit in it.

Bastards.

:grr:
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