Should I install a gas water heater or an electric one?

[LiberalEsto]

I live in Maryland, and our gas hot water heater is really old - way past its expected lifetime. Time to replace.

But with gas prices soaring, would it be better to put in an electric heater, or stick with natural gas?

[Parche]

1. electric

Electric would probably be the best

[YDogg]

2. Electric.

Not that I have professional experience, but I prefer electric based on personal experience, having had both.

[politicat]

3. Electric tankless.

Or gas tankless. But tankless.

Try this one, or it's electric counterpart.

http://www.homeclick.com/showpage.asp?itemid=170214

[ET Awful]

6. You know, until I did a Google search just now, I never realized how

tiny those heaters really are :)

This is one of the Powerstream electric heaters



Damn that's cool :)

edit: Oh, that unit is only good for a sink . . . it's still pretty damn cool :)

[skids]

29. While you are installing.

...even if you have no immediate intentions to do anything solar, while you have the pipes apart and the plumber plumbing, put in the extra pipework needed for a solar preheat system. It'll be much cheaper to do it then than to rip up the system later to bodge it on.

http://www.theenergyguy.com/solar_reliability.html#4

[LiberalEsto]

21. $425 is a good price

I thought tankless would be too expensive.

Thanks.

I mean tanks!

[hatrack]

45. I had one of those when I lived in Japan

Very cool - small, effective and quite economical.

[NMDemDist2]

4. tankless is the way to go unless you have a bunch of kids

check it out

http://www.controlledenergy.com/#

[John Q. Citizen]

11. Tankless especially if you have a lot of kids. It's on demand so

there is no waiting for taking the next shower.

[NMDemDist2]

12. BUT it will only supply one (or two) locations at once. One shower

OR the Dishwasher OR the kitchen sink OR the washing machine

there are trade offs.....

[snippy]

15. Two or more "point of supply" tankless units will solve that problem.

Here is a very basic description of tankless water heaters and their advantages and disadvatages. http://www.chilipepperapp.com/tankless.htm

[NMDemDist2]

22. i already have one and have for almost two years.

and I do love it! but it's only hubby and I

[snippy]

28. They are great, but with a large family you do need one for the kitchen,

one for the laundry room and one for the bathrooms. The cost of the units will eventually be recovered in the energy and water savings. And because of the energy and water savings they are much better from an environmental standpoint than traditional tank units.

[NMDemDist2]

33. good grief! I had to add a 220 volt circuit for the darn thing, maybe

you mean some smaller 120v units for under sinks :shrug:

[snippy]

38. Yes, many of the point of supply units use 120 volts and just plug in.

It depends on how high a flow of hot water is necessary and how much the water needs to be heated. Whole house units will always require 220 volts. But even the 120 volt systems may require dedicated electrical lines because of the the high instantaneous current draw.

Even so, they will pay for themselves. The point of supply units save the most energy and water because there is less cool water standing in pipes before the hot water begins flowing. But another big advantage of the point of supply units in large families is when someone wants to do the dishes or do laundry at the same time that someone is taking a shower. Each use is using its own dedicated supply of hot water.

[KansDem]

5. What about one of those "instant on" or tankless water heaters?

Tankless instantaneous or "instant-on" water heaters are also available and gaining in popularity. These water heaters heat the water as the water flows through the device, and do not retain any water internally except for what is in the pipe. Installed at the point of use, these heaters can be far more efficient than the tank type. They are models powered by electricity, natural gas or propane. These type of heaters are also know as "in-line" water heaters.

http://www.answers.com/topic/water-heater-1

I'm thinking about installing one of these to replace my present water heater, which might go out any day now since I bought it 17 years ago.

[John Q. Citizen]

7. A gas on demand is what I'd like to get. No tank to keep hot and

nearly unlimited hot water.

[skids]

31. There's a super-responsive variant...

....basically a tankless with a tiny mini-tank that is much better insulated than a normal water tank. Supposedly this offers all the energy saving of tankless, but you get the hot water immediately on demand instead of waiting a few seconds for response.

But damned if I can find the URL.

[benburch]

8. Only get a demand (tankless) heater if your city water isn't too cold.

There is a limit to the temperature rise in a tankless heater. I can't use one here because our water is so cold.

[brainshrub]

13. I thought you lived in GA?

[benburch]

20. No!

Elgin, Illinois, the "Rhinestone of The Fox"

[brainshrub]

30. Now why did I think that?

Oh well.

[benburch]

32. Because Malloy and Joe Vecchio are in GA?

:shrug:

[brainshrub]

34. Y'know. That's probably it.

I was in GA this past weekend and I was kicking my self that I didn't look you up. I'm glad I didn't now.

[zalinda]

24. I live in Syracuse, NY

and I've had one for a year. The water certainly gets hot enough in the winter.

zalinda

[benburch]

27. Depends on how you get your water.

And what temperature it is. Not necessarily the seasonal air temperature. Pipes are buried deep enough that air temperature does not much effect them.

[zalinda]

40. I'm not really sure what the temp is

I know the water comes from a lake, but I guess it could be warmed up by the time it gets to me. Maybe I should run the cold water this winter and see what the water temp is.

zalinda

[havocmom]

25. DemoTex was curious about that due to cold well water

It was suggested to him to keep old tank heater, if it doesn't leak, to use (sans heating element) as a tank to bring cold water to nearly room temp before it goes into the tankless heater.

Might that be a help? Am curious as we are discussing going tankless when the current heater goes belly up.

Also putting in a modern, extremely efficient boiler system for heat for the house. Basically like the tankless heater for hot water, but a closed system to radiators in all the rooms. (New radiators are NOT like the bulky old fashioned ones)

[benburch]

26. Yes. A preheating tank is one solution.

As is a solar preheater.

[lastknowngood]

9. Electric does not blow up

n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

10. solar. Actually, even with REALLY HIGH PRICES, gas is more efficient

eclectic takes more energy to heat water, while something like 98.9% of the natural gas turns into usable heat. and with modern designs and newer heat exchangers, that is pretty damn good.

Another alternative, a bit costlier at the front end, but incredibly cheap later on is the
Euro and Asian system of Point of Use Heat. Either gas or electric, it heats the water at the end source, and only when you need hot water. It costs a bit to install, but you truly waste no heat or energy at all. It only turns on when you need it.


In fact, in Japan, baths have become almost unrecognizable compared to currently ancient american systems. Forget bidets. They have really comfy toilets that will wash and dry your butt, with nice warm water. Seriously, try it once, and you are fully sold on it. Their sinks turn on heat only when you seek it. They have these showers that are so luxurious with powerful jets that hit you from every direction and have great body blow dryers.

[htuttle]

16. Nearly all household appliances are more advanced in Japan

Plumbing, televisions, telephones, cars, etc...

The US lost the lead in househould and personal technology some years ago. I've been told that going to Japan nowdays can feel like stepping 10-15 years into the future.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

49. Tis true. I cannot understand why. Some puritanical streak?

where discussion of such matters is inappropriate?
Kinda like sex will be once Miers is appointed.

[bananas]

14. Utilities companies are recommending gas over electric

I'll update this message with links.

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20051012005756&newsLang=en
"Natural gas water heaters are less expensive than electric models to operate, and they heat water up to twice as fast: Homeowners can cut water heating costs by 50 percent by using natural gas," Sitherwood said.

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp
Consider gas. Based on national average fuel costs, gas heaters cost roughly half as much to run as electric models and can pay for their higher up-front cost in as little as a year. Factor in the cost of running a gas line to your home if you don’t have one. Also consider adding insulation to hot-water pipes and the cold water pipe exiting the water heater.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/femp/technologies/eep_electric_waterheaters.cfm
Where natural gas is available on-site, a gas water heater will almost always be more cost-effective than an electric model. Depending on the climate and energy costs, a solar-assisted or heat pump water heater may result in substantial energy and cost savings.

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:CLA-c2MgGZwJ:www.efficiencyvermont.com/Docs/Heating%2520Switch%2520Release_FINAL.doc+vermont+energy+heat+gas&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Joint Announcement from: Efficiency Vermont, Burlington Electric Department, Central Vermont Public Service and Green Mountain Power.
Considering a Switch to Electric Heat? – Think Again

[bananas]

18. LIFE-CYCLE COSTS FOR DIFFERENT TYPES OF WATER HEATERS

According to this table, even if gas prices double, it's still cheaper than electric.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:phkQxfV1xhcJ:www.aceee.org/consumerguide/water_heater_LLCs.pdf+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

There's an article accompanying that table at http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topwater.htm

[snippy]

17. If the cost of natural gas is an important consideration, you need to know

whether your electric utility uses gas for generation. If so, your costs for electricity may rise significantly in the next year or so. Even if it does not use gas your costs for electricity may be rising.

[msongs]

19. about our aquastar tankless gas heater:

water gets so hot you better not run just the hot.

we can run 2 showers at the same time no problem.

has no pilot flame either.

works just fine for 2 years.

cost about $500 and we did our own install, just like a tank heater except one has to bolt the tankless into the studs, which is way secure for us here in earthquake countyr.

based on our experience I recommend this item.

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[NMDemDist2]

44. I have an AquaStar too, haven't tried running both showers with it

but you ain't lying about HOT hot water

[LiberalEsto]

58. How is the maintenance?

I've read about complaints of deteriorating (valve?) screws on the Aquastar that are difficult to remove and replace.

[serryjw]

23. Consumer Report says Gas

http://www.consumerreports.org/main/detailv4.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=551259&FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=32523&ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=333135

[madrchsod]

35. gas or electric tankless

only way to go for the future. solar is a few more years away

[philb]

36. Solar water heaters are cost effective if can find good installer

Passive solar water heaters are the most cost effective if you have the right orientation and a compatible location for it. With electric backup or instantaneous backup.


If the utility that serves you uses mostly natural gas, natural gas is still more cost effective than electric.

[pstans]

41. I'd check out solar

Pays for itself eventually. At least check out the prices and I am not sure of Maryland's solar capability and your land.

[midnight armadillo]

50. Solar will work in MD

It works in Maine (www.mainesolarhouse.com) and in Minnesota (www.daycreek.com).

It'll work in Maryland, as long as the location has good southern exposure.

[philb]

52. Its possible to drain the water out of current tank and do some maintenanc

you run a garden hose to the bottom hose bib and drain and then replace the heating elements. Use existing water heater as backup to a solar system.

[Massacure]

37. Gas. Turning electricity into heat is terribly inefficient.

And that is true of any appliance.

[DemSigns]

46. I second this and more

Do not get an electric water heater. The conversion to gas into heat in your home is at least twice as efficient as generating and transporting electicity to the elements in water heaters. The elements do convert 100% of the electricty to heat however.

If you have a boiler, consider an indirect water heater that uses your boiler to supply heat to a coil in the tank. The smallest one made will be sufficient for two or three people unless you have huge tubs to fill.

If about 5 feet of your plumbing stack is exposed in the basement you could consider a waste water heat recycler called the Gravity Film Heat Exchanger or GFX from GFXTechnology.com. They have gotten pricier since I installed mine two years ago due to the increase in the price of copper, but they do recover a lot of heat from showers and dishwashing. Call them for the best price. With GFX you can get a smeller water heater and save money right off the bat.

[ladjf]

39. If you have as South facing roof top you might consider a solar

water heater.

[Digit]

42. I am checking out a Takagi tankless to provide my heat and hot water

http://www.tanklesswaterheaters.com/taktktanwath.html

My system was already set up for a similar system using an air handler w/hot water coils. My water heater acts as a storage tank.
I have a separate A/C unit which is only 7 years old, 12 SEER.

I just wish I could utilize solar technology with this system, but I can't find anyone with that kind of knowledge.

[AZCat]

43. I just went to a water heater seminar yesterday.

We spent quite some time on legionella and ways to prevent the bacteria from surviving in a hot water system. I don't know how much of a problem it is in residential hot water systems, but awareness of a problem in commercial buildings is growing rapidly. Toronto just had 17 people die in a nursing home from a legionnaire's disease outbreak (story here).

I'm going to discuss the implications today with my boss and I will ask about his recommendations for residential systems regarding legionella.

[DemSigns]

47. Use a mixing valve

Always install a thermostatic mixing valve at the hot water heater so you can heat the water to 140 degrees or more but have water going to fixtures at 120 degress or less. This will kill most bacteria and provide a safer temperature at the tap. Anti-scald faucets sould be used too as a safety precaution.

Even better, you can pipe the 140 degree water directly to your laundry and dishwasher to get better sanitizing there and your dishwasher won't have to use its electric heating elements to inefficiently heat the water. This assumes you don't already have an electric water heater.

[AZCat]

53. Powers Controls ran that part of the seminar...

So they made sure we were all aware of the benefits of thermostatic mixing valves.

We (my company) end up heating to 140 and then boosting to 180 in kitchens, although a lot of commercial dishwashers have their own booster heaters so we just run 140 (and 120 to the rest, via mixing valve).

[DemSigns]

57. Are you recycling waste water heat?

Have you looked at a Gravity Film Heat Exchanger or GFX from GFXTechnology.com for your company? Commercial dishwashing is a great use for a GFX or a ganged GFX system. Even if you sump pump the water up the to GFX it is very cost effective and saves a lot of BTUs and greenhouse gases. I pipe the GFX preheated water to the cold side of the mixing valve and the water heater so less water goes through the water heater so hopefully it will last longer and cycle less.

[AZCat]

59. With all the LEED projects popping up around the area...

it might not be a bad idea to look into this, especially when we're using 140 degree water. I'll bring it up with my boss, although we may use them in certain situations and I'm just not aware of it.

Thanks!

[LiberalEsto]

48. I write promo material for natural gas cooling technology

and from what I've heard and read, the legionella problem results from bacteria growing in excess condensation and poorly maintained condensation pans in large commercial cooling systems. Once circulating air in the HVAC system picks up that bacteria, it spreads all over a building and into people's lungs.

Solutions include increased maintenance and cleaning, piping the condensate to another location, more ventilation, and/or installing desiccant dehumidification that will reduce moisture in the air, and by doing so, condensation. Desiccant systems are costly and not usually built for residential use.

I'm not familiar with legionella being an issue in residential cooling systems, although uncontrolled condensation and moisture can lead to serious mold problems in homes.

SEMCO and Munters are two major manufacturers of desiccant dehumidification.

I think there are also devices that purify circulating air using ultraviolet light.

[AZCat]

55. We don't have too much of a problem with condensation here.

Tucson is pretty dry and we only have condensation for a month or so during monsoon season, but there are still a few applications for desiccants. Sometimes we use them for heat recovery when we have 100% outside air.



Edit: grammar

[bananas]

51. Let us know what you find out

If you search for "legionella water heater" you get hits like this:

"Even at 60 °C – the setting on most electric water heaters – an estimated 25% of all water heaters are contaminated by legionella bacteria."
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:B4ATcJyAXcIJ:www.hydroquebec.com/advice_hot_water/+legionella+water+heater&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

It also causes Pontiac Fever, which mostly goes unreported - people just think they caught a cold or flu.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/legionellosis_g.htm

[AZCat]

54. We didn't have much time to talk about it today.

We had conflicting schedules today (never in the office at the same time) but I did manage to get a quick moment with him. Basically we don't worry about it much other than in hospitals, but it can be a serious concern there mostly because of "dead" legs. Hospitals undergo a tremendous amount of renovation and plumbing fixtures are constantly being moved. If the piping that previously ran to those fixtures is not removed back to the hot water loop, the "dead" leg fills with water that stagnates - a perfect habitat for legionella. We have had contracts before to eliminate dead legs in hospitals for this very reason.

[Kolesar]

56. Similar thread from page two of E&E

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x32242

[DemSigns]

60. Read: "Tankless Electric are Brutal on the Grid"

Tankless Water Heaters are Brutal on the Grid When Popularized

Tankless water heaters draw energy on demand, and do not have a thermal energy storage facet. Multiplied by many customers' hot-water usage patterns, these surges of energy amount to a significantly higher peak load for utilities, resulting in increased costs and, more significantly, in increased waste during non-peak times.

"In the United States, the amount of energy vented (wasted) every day by the utilities due to lost energy of non-peak production, is enough to run all of the vehicles in the country."

by Sterling D. Allan and Paul Noel
Pure Energy Systems News - Exclusive
Copyright © 2005


The tankless water heater is one of
Krystal Planet's best-sellers.



While tankless water heaters do indeed usually provide a customer with substantial out-of-pocket savings on their fuel bill, a problem arises when a lot of people use such a system. It puts a heavy load on the grid during peak times.

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