Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The Evolutionary Advantage of Menopause Explained: Children Cause Death.

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:16 PM
Original message
The Evolutionary Advantage of Menopause Explained: Children Cause Death.
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 11:20 PM by NNadir
I am posting this in the E&E forum rather than the Science forum because all of the fabulous energy schemes and environmental notes posted here are actually about the same thing: Population.

We could all live in biofuel nirvana if the planet had less than a billion people, but biofuel nirvana is pure nonsense with 6.5 billion people.

Anything I can do to discourage indiscriminate breeding is probably more helpful than anything else I could say.

Here is an article from the Washington Post:


What exasperated or overworked parent hasn't declared to a child at least once: "You'll be the death of me!"

Now we know -- with unprecedented precision -- just how true that can be.

A pair of researchers, drawing on the experience of nearly 22,000 couples in the 19th century -- has measured the "fitness cost" of human reproduction. This is the price that parents pay in their own health and longevity for the privilege of having their genes live on in future generations...

...Not surprisingly, women paid a bigger price than men. Older mothers were four times as likely to die in the year after having a child than their mates. Having lots of children was especially risky. A mother of 12 had five times the risk of dying prematurely as a mother of three...

...The later-born children in very large families had less chance than their older brothers and sisters of surviving into adulthood and having children themselves. Losing a mother raised every child's risk of dying young...

...Big families were hard on children, too. Twenty percent of children in the largest families died before age 18, compared with 10 percent in the smallest. About 15 percent of first-born children died by 18, compared with nearly 25 percent of 12th-borns.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/14/AR2007011400480_2.html

I will now offer an anecdotal (and not in any way systematic) comment.

One of my grandmothers gave birth to 14 children. (I have many hundreds of cousins.) She died in her early fourties, after 4 of her children had died.

Of the ten children she had, 3 of them, including my mother, were dead by the time they were 55. Three lived into their 80's, and four are still living in their 70's. One of those children who is living has more than 30 living decendents herself, having borne 4 daughters, one of whom died before she was 55.

My other grandmother had nine children, four of whom survived past the age of 4. One died at the age of six, one at the age of 60, one (my father) at 67 and one (the oldest) lived into her 80's.

I note that if either of grandmothers had used birth control and stopped at two - which in modern times is not quite as ethical as having zero or one - I would not exist. Of course this wouldn't be especially tragic, given that as a person who did not exist, I would have no opinion on the matter.

For the record I have two children. I have had myself sterilized. I very much regret the world I am leaving for my boys.

The article suggests that the evolutionary advantage of menopause is that in enables social animals to help their existing children to survive.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. I suggested once on DU that having more than 2 children was not such a great
idea for the mom or the children and got sorely abused for my thoughts. I am still right.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I'm sure I will be abused as well.
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 11:24 PM by NNadir
Still both you and I are still right.

The fact is that I had two. I love both my boys more than I love myself, but it was probably less than ethical to have them - an indulgence in the optimistic Clinton era.

I don't mind being abused by the way.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
efhmc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. I suggested adoption for those that wanted more children and was informed
that unless one was rich and famous that that was not an option. I goggled older children wanting to be adopted in the US and came up with over a million hits. Suggested that and was informed that some people just wanted to have their own children and that those other "unwanteds" (not the exact term that was used but closer to the truth) were too iffy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. I have no children at all
My decision was arrived at after years of wondering if there was something wrong with me -- after all, I don't have the "mommy" gene. I had NO desire to have children of my own, and I document this knowledge as far back as my senior year in high school. I am the oldest of three daughters. Both of my sisters have one child apiece. I am facing menopause, and I anxiously await the next stage of my life. I have never regretted the decision to not reproduce. At the same time, I had to respond after reading this.

>I very much regret the world I am leaving for my boys.<

I admire those who are thoughtful, caring, involved and conscientious parents. Even though we are all leaving the children a less than optimal world, I still have hope that they will effect positive change in their lifetimes.

Julie
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Well thank you for swimming against the stream.
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 11:41 PM by NNadir
Anyone who thinks that having children is not for them and who acts accordingly is to be admired.

Many people feel pressure to become a parent. I know I did. This is not why I had children, but I am aware of the pressure nevertheless. I love being a father a great deal, but I must confess that my decision to have a second involved pressure - from a 4 year old. My first son pressed hard for my second child. I cannot in any way regret my second son - who is a fine human being who I love a great deal independently of my first - but I would have helped the odds of survival of the oldest were he an only child. (His happiness may have been a different issue, though.)

I know many people who thought they really didn't want to be parents at all who became parents in any case just to avoid the pressure from relatives and friends. I think they were less ethical than you have been.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 05:45 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I am often (indirectly) excoriated for no children...
Edited on Mon Jan-15-07 05:55 AM by hlthe2b
and since I'm now single, people who don't know me well assume: professional single woman without children, MUST be lesbian.

I don't really care one way or another about the latter. However when some see the time and care I give to my doggies, it seems to really push a button. I guess the assumption must be that if I have dogs and no children, I must HATE children! :shrug:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-14-07 11:31 PM
Response to Original message
4. Childbirth is still a risky proposition
Edited on Sun Jan-14-07 11:32 PM by Warpy
and although we're better off than we were 100 years ago, we still lag behind much of the world in its survivability. That's one reason we prochoicers insist it must be voluntary.

It's obvious why later children were less likely to make it to adulthood. Children had become a burden and the youngest were often turfed off to the eldest for care. Mama was tired and her health was wrecked.

No one who hasn't been through it, and certainly not the half of the population which remains anatomically exempt, knows how much it costs a woman to produce a child. Trips to cemeteries in New England are sobering: one headstone for a long lived man plus thee to five headstones for women who had died quite young, one after the other, each with a series of tiny headstones for her children who also died.

So hell yes, menopause has a great evolutionary basis. Any woman who had survived many pregnancies and hit the age of 50 deserved to live the rest of her life without that burden and risk to her health and life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. I guess this explains why Roman Catholic nuns in the US
have the longest life expectancy of any group.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Is that actually true?
I didn't know that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
laruemtt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. my aunt is a nun and
she will be 97 this year!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Mrs. Overall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. I just tried to Google this and I did find
Edited on Mon Jan-15-07 12:30 PM by paxmusa
an article from Australia about longevity. Here's a quote:

Speaking of single women, studies show that nuns live significantly longer than other women, as shown by the Nun Study, a long-term research project involving 678 nuns from six US convents conducted by Dr David Snowdon of the University of Kentucky. This could be due to their abstemious lifestyles; though faith in God seems to increase happiness, and happier people seem to live longer.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/seniorshealth/so-you-want-to-live-forever-/2006/03/15/1142098530530.html?page=3

I know this from direct experience of having lived in a convent during my twenties. We would run across articles in the newspaper about studies of nuns living a long time and we would agree as our infirmary was filled with sisters who were in their nineties and well over one hundred years old. Now that I'm married with children, I have so much more stress in my life when compared to the years I spent as a nun, which were truly peaceful and meditative.

An interesting side note from the Australian article: men actually benefit by having a woman in their lives and tend to live longer if they are married.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
9. Indeed, I read that it was enable an elder female "wise" population to survive
who had undergone cycles of famine, drought, etc. and managed to survive by watching their elderly great-grandmothers who had watched theirs, and so the cycle continues...
Supposedly only the "wisest" of the animals undergo menopause...humans and whales and elephants! I never checked the veracity of that claim though.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-15-07 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. What's funny is, that menopause comes too late.
At least, assuming that the parent's health is in play as a selection pressure. It ought to come around age 40, or maybe even earlier.

I've always thought that a more effective solution would be for humans to not become fertile until they are 25 or 30. But that assumes a technological society where most people can expect good health into their 50s or beyond. That may turn out to be a temporary condition for humanity. For those that ever had such a society to begin with.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri May 03rd 2024, 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Environment/Energy Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC