Grand Opening of Hydrogen Fueling Station (Irvine, CA)

[jpak]

http://www.planetsave.com/ps_mambo/The_News/Alternative_Energy/Grand_Opening_of_Hydrogen_Fueling_Station_200702278538/

IRVINE, Calif., Feb. 27 (AScribe Newswire) -- UC Irvine today celebrated the grand opening of its automobile hydrogen fueling station -- the first of its kind in Orange County, and the first in California capable of dispensing hydrogen at 700 bar, or 10,000 pounds per square inch, which in some cases can nearly double a vehicle's driving range. Automakers Toyota, Nissan, Honda, General Motors and DaimlerChrysler are expected to use the station to fuel demonstration vehicles that are not yet commercially available. The station provides the newest in fueling technology to meet the demands of the vehicle development programs.

"The world looks to California as the testing ground for next-generation automobile technologies. The shift to a hydrogen economy is not an incremental change to society, but rather a dramatic and fundamental shift in the way that individuals will operate their vehicles in the future," said Scott Samuelsen, director of UCI's National Fuel Cell Research Center (NFCRC). "UCI has played an integral role in leading this transformation, and we are excited to be taking an important next step with the opening of this state-of-the-art hydrogen refueling station."

The NFCRC and Air Products of Allentown, Pa., designed, engineered and installed the station with funding from the U.S. Department of Energy and California's South Coast Air Quality Management District. The station is operated by the NFCRC and maintained by Air Products. Planning is under way for the addition of a separate liquid dispensing unit that can directly fill vehicles from BMW that carry liquid hydrogen on board as a fuel.

The station features dual-pressure technology that allows drivers to select the pressure at which to refuel their hydrogen vehicles. Fuel cell vehicles can achieve a greater range between refuelings by using hydrogen at higher pressures. Since January 2003, UCI has had the ability to dispense hydrogen at 350 bar, or 5,000 pounds per square inch. Air Products completed installation of a new 350 bar system in August 2006 and added the 700 bar system earlier this month.

<more>

[CountAllVotes]

1. I have a friend that lives in Holland

and they've been doing this for a long time now and he has a Mitsubishi and he drives a lot and he has no complaints whatsoever. Hydrogen is a great way to fuel a car - clean and cheap!
:D

:kick:

[Porcupine]

2. There will NEVER be a hydrogen economy ok?

Batteries are cheaper. Hybrids are cheaper. Biofuels are cheaper.

Hydrogen is a scam run by the oil companies to avoid moving away gasoline and towards electrics or hybrids.

[percussivemadness]

3. amen

nt

[jpak]

4. Sorry - H2 *will* be part of the Carbon Neutral Economy

And no - its not a scam run by Bil Oil.

Hydrogen technologies under development in Japan, Iceland and the EU that are not funded by Big Oil or ChimpCo.

H2, biofuels, batteries and hybrids all have their peculiar strengths and weaknesses.

All will be part of the mix.

[Skink]

5. Besides where else are you going to fill up your blimp?

[Porcupine]

14. Now there's a use of hydrogen I support. Zeppelins.

blimps are for wussies. Get a hard shell airship.

[GliderGuider]

6. Woohoo! The Hydrogen has arrived! We're saved!

My take on why Big Oil and Big Cars are so hyped on hydrogen is that they will use any green rhetoric they can say without spitting up to keep the issue of higher CAFE standards off the table. "Don't worry about that CAFE stuff - can't you see we're leapfrogging right over all those old-fashioned gas-driven concerns???"

Oh, and where is the hydrogen coming from? Not reformed fossil fuels by any chance?

Hydrogen is the fuel of the future ... and it always will be.

[jpak]

7. BC is going to have a Cracker Jack H2 bus system in place for the Winter Olympics

Did Big Oil fund that too????

Nope

How are they going to produce that H2???

(electrolysis using hydro power)

No Big Oil required...

The nattering nabobs of negativism gnash noisily on...

:evilgrin:

[phantom power]

8. I was just thinking

that the guy who coined the term "nattering nabobs of negativism" --





-- used it to denigrate his critics. Who turned out to be right.

Now, I'm not saying, I'm just sayin...

[jpak]

11. meanie

:)

[phantom power]

12. It was cheap, and wrong. But I know in my heart I would do it again.

:hide:

[amandabeech]

34. I thought that it was Tricky Dick's henchman, Spiro Agnew,

who brought up the nattering nabobs in the first place.

Sorry, I don't have a picture of his sorry face.

[GliderGuider]

9. I wouldn't react so negatively

if there was evidence of an iota of skepticism about anything in your posts.

I always wonder whether the cheerleaders are there to keep me from noticing what's actually happening on the field.

"The technical difficulties are in their last throes. The fact that the problems are so hard means we're winning. We'll soon have a Surge of unimaginable power!"

I value critical analysis a lot more than cheerleading. Cheerleading pisses me off.

[jpak]

10. When I post these articles, I don't editorialize (hence the lack of iotas)

and constant incessant negative rants piss me off too...

:evilgrin:

[GliderGuider]

13. OK, maybe we can work a trade here.

I'll post a positive assessment of a renewable energy source and you post a critical one. Then we'll call a truce.

Here's mine:

http://www.relocalize.net/node/2665

Solar power will get its day in the sun, according to Day4Energy chairman and CEO John MacDonald.

"Solar energy could enter the mainstream of electrical generation in 10 years," MacDonald told the Straight from the company's Burnaby office. "Wind, tidal, biomass are all possible alternatives, but we've got to start now."

MacDonald, cofounder and former CEO and chair of Richmond-based MacDonald Dettwiler and Associates Ltd., enters a photovoltaic solar-powered technology market that currently has a 0.03 percent share of total world energy production. Factory space for the company's solar panels is under construction in South Burnaby and should be complete in June, he said.

"Energy is a fundamental resource," MacDonald explained. "Human beings have fought for resources for the longest time. This is a big one. The U.S., as we know, is heavily reliant on a politically unstable part of the world , so this is a very dangerous situation. But to me it's so damn obvious that we have to do something."

MacDonald said he believes it won't happen overnight but "will take a number of decades" for alternative, renewable energy to come on-stream, go through trouble-shooting, and then come down in price sufficiently for Canadians to take it on as a primary energy source ahead of oil, gas, and coal.

The BC Sustainable Energy Association has invited MacDonald as one of the guest speakers Friday (March 31) for the BC Solar Summit 2006 at the SFU Harbour Centre. The event - its aim is to promote solar water-heating and eventually install 100,000 solar roofs in B.C.-runs March 31 to April 3, with other events taking place in Victoria.

I like this because it places PV in a realistic context. Further, the story is being promoted by a relocalization group, which is a realistic setting for the adoption of the technology.

Your turn.

[Dead_Parrot]

25. I hope you've not been holding your breath... nt

[GliderGuider]

26. Hey, it was worth a shot. Hypoxia set in and left me gasping, though.

I have nothing against people being enthusiastic about any technology, so long as they are prepared to entertain the ideas of limits, appropriate context of use and the risk/benefit balance. The inability to do that reveals the supporter as a cheerleader, and people like that contribute little to critical discussions. In fact I'd go so far as to say they are part of the problem, whether their pet technology is ethanol or nuclear.

[jpak]

29. Sorry - I don't respond to call outs

against the rules - and I can handle myself just OK in any E&E debate...

turning blue yet????

:evilgrin:

[amandabeech]

35. Um, do you guys really have the climate and location for solar?

I've seen the U.S. solar maps and the farther north and east the lower the energy available for capture.

You also have people in some cloudy spots. Vancouver couldn't be that different than Seattle. You also have quite a few people living around the cloudy Great Lakes region. Speaking as a former Michigoose neighbor, I don't see solar as the big thing if the southern Ontario climate is anything like western lower Michigan.

[GliderGuider]

37. Nope. PV is a non-starter up here.

A few people are trying off-grid houses here with PV, but they are most "demonstrations of faith". It's expensive because the array area needed is pretty big if you're going to get enough charge into the batteries to do much good. Wind also pretty much sucks where I am (Ottawa), so the opportunities for personal green electricity projects are pretty limited.

I buy my domestic electricity from Bullfrog Power, a local green supplier, but they finance wind parks in more favourable locations and feed that into the grid.

[jpak]

41. Ottawa is located at 45 degrees latitude and receives > 2 kWh/m2/day of solar energy in December

A 3 kW PV system would be adequate for that locale - which isn't huge.

It's at the same general latitude as the State of Maine - where >1000 off-grid homes were built in the 70's - early '90's and where hundreds of grid-tied PV home have been built since then.

Maine Solar is located at 44.7 degrees N and has installed over 700 residential PV systems in the state....

http://www.mainesolar.com/

http://www.mainesolar.com/Showroom.htm

There is no technical reason why PV should be a "non-starter" in Ontario...and as Ontario now has feed-in tariffs ($0.42 per kWh produced) for grid-tied PV systems (equal to those found in Europe), there is no reason why it can't be economic for many Ontario residents...

[GliderGuider]

42. Here, take a closer look at those "Standard Offer Contracts" they're giving out

From a lengthy analysis on The Oil Drum:

All generators under a SOC are required to have an Ontario Energy Board generator licence, at a cost of $100. They must also have a four quadrant meter with telecommunications capability in order to transmit the hourly data. The cost of the meter is likely to be between $1000-3000 and a dedicated phone line may well be required. In addition, generators must maintain separate utility accounts for generation and load, at additional cost. All connection costs, including a connection impact assessment and any upgrades to the distribution system required as a result of the connection, must also be carried by the generator.

Solar installations will be paid 42 cents per kWh and all other generation technologies will receive 11 cents per kWh, with prices to be fixed for the 20 years of the contract. An inflation adjustment is available for 20% of the price paid to non-solar installations, while solar generators will receive no inflation adjustment at all. The price could therefore vary significantly in real terms over the life of the contract.

Costs Versus Benefits for Small Generators

Even in today's terms, the price offered for non-solar generation is not particularly generous in comparison with the spot price for electricity, especially during peak seasons. It is approximately double the regulated price paid by electricity consumers, but the regulated price is itself effectively subsidized. During peak demand periods the spot price regularly exceeds 11 cents per kWh - in fact in the summer of 2005 there were entire weeks when the spot price averaged over 15 cents per kWh. Seen in this context, the SOC payments for non-solar generation hardly represent a premium, even without taking into account all the costs to be imposed on small generators. This is perhaps not surprising since the Ontario Power Authority (OPA) set the 11 cents per kWh rate by reference to the rates offered under the previous RPF system, which pertained to large commercial projects.

The payments for solar PV, which might seem generous at first glance, are not attractive for small generators. For instance, a homeowner with a typical 1.5kW system could conservatively expect to generate approximately 1500-1800kWh per year in Ontario (depending on whether or not the angle of the panels is fixed or optimized by season). That is equivalent to about 125-150kWh per month. At 42 cents per kWh, that would be worth $52.50-$63 per month.

To put that in perspective, the cost a dedicated phone line, which would probably be required under a SOC, could reach $40 per month. Added to the $10-30 cost of maintaining a separate utility account as a generator, and the capital cost of the required interval meter costs - $1000-3000 - it is clear that generators at a household scale would be lucky not to make a net monthly loss. It would be unlikely that the generator would even recoup the cost of the meter over the life of the contract, let alone the cost of the system. Needless to say, the numbers look even worse for small generators using any generation technology other than solar PV.

Ontario's SOCs are shit.

[Porcupine]

15. Good thing there's excess hydropower capacity.....

on the eastern seaboard where 2/3's of our population lives. That's going to be real useful in Florida. No, huh.

Unused electical capacity is in short supply everywhere but Iceland, Norway, Sweden and Finland. What percentage of the human race live s there anyway?

Hydrogen still has the problem that squeezing it into storage mediums available costs more than using the energy to charge a lithium battery. When hydrogen can get better power densities than supercaps or lithium batteries at a lower energy cost come back and talk to us.

[jpak]

16. Where's all the excess capacity to charge those Li batteries????

:evilgrin:

Florida - the Sunshine State - nuf said...

A recent study concluded there are 330 GW of off-shore wind potential in the US mid-Atlantic region.

Storage and UPS systems will be needed manage that amount of wind power.

H2 fuel cells and fly wheel UPS systems are the best options for grid management of that amount of wind capacity.

Low/med/high pressure storage tanks (or liquid H2) can store H2 for long periods. The existing propane distribution could handle much of this today.

No exotic H2 storage technology required.

[Porcupine]

17. You can't store hydrogen in propane tanks!!! WTF?

Propane tanks are only good to 150 PSI or so operating pressure.

You can't even store it in natural gas storage tanks because it eats the valves.

What kind of hydrogen shill are you anyway. C'mon. Try harder.

Also flywheel storage gives you better, cheaper, power density and energy recovery than hydrogen for periods under 48 hours. No fancy tanks needed.

To economically store hydrogen over 48 hours you need really large tanks with special insulation and valving. Little tanks leak too much.

A little hydrogen storage primer for you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Storage

[jpak]

18. Can't store H2 in propane tanks??? Don't tell this guy....

http://www.app.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070218/NEWS/702180313

The deluded folks at the Schatz Energy Center have been using low pressure tanks to store H2 for over a decade...

http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/trinidad.html

Shill no, informed and broad-minded yes...

[hunter]

19. Just for fun...

How big of a low pressure hydrogen tank do you need to store the same amount of energy as a plain old 20 lb propane tank?

Like say, you wanted to run your backyard BBQ grill on hydrogen...

[NickB79]

20. Jpak's first link says 10, 1000-gallon tanks

To fuel a 3500 sq. foot home.

Then there's this:

"Although the solar panels cost $80,000, a state rebate brought the cost down to about $25,000, he said. The hydrogen system equipment cost about $150,000.

The overall project cost about $500,000, including research, engineering, installation, administrative and other costs, Strizki said.

The state Board of Public Utilities gave him an approximately $250,000 grant, he provided probably about $100,000 of his cash and time, and he raised about $150,000 worth of donated equipment and services, he said.

If not for his solar-hydrogen and geothermal systems, his energy bills would be close to $10,000 a year, Strizki said."

:wow:

[jpak]

21. 10, 1000 gallon tanks for long term storage and winter use...

that could be replaced by 1 high pressure tank...

<snip>

The next generation hydrogen storage tanks will be high-pressure ones, he said. Although he has 10, 1,000-gallon tanks now, a single tank about half their size would be needed, he said.

<snip>

and yes, early adopters always pay a premium - his electrolyzers and fuel cells were not mass produced items.

This guy deserves a medal for his efforts...so flame on...

[hunter]

22. A one or two thousand gallon tank to run your BBQ.

This is your BBQ gas tank on propane:



The three 500 gallon tanks of the Schatz project at Humboldt hold roughly the equivalent amount of energy.

A small cage of 20# propane tanks in front of a bait and fishing tackle store holds more energy than these:


http://news.com.com/2300-11392_3-6151755-1.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

The really hard part about storing hydrogen is that without welded joints it is almost impossible to build a system that doesn't leak. Quick connects of any sort are very problematic, and situations in which hydrogen can become corrosive are more likely than with natural gas or propane. To achieve a level of safety comparable to that of natural gas or propane requires costlier components and much more care in the installation. But hydrogen does have the advantage that leaks quickly disperse, making them less likely to accumulate.

I notice in the picture above that Strizki's system seems to use stainless steel tubing and very expensive valves of the sort you can't buy at Home Depot. Curiously the tank system seems to be shut down.

It really doesn't make any sense to store hydrogen like this at any place with a reliable connection to an electric power network. From a simple standpoint of public safety, it's a better idea to feed surplus electricity into the network rather than store it as hydrogen. If there are surpluses of electricity on the network, it might be a better idea to generate hydrogen at larger scales, and immediately transform that hydrogen into more useful liquid fuels or industrial feedstocks.

Ah well, more useless American daft. Claiming to be some kind or environmentalist is oh-so-cool so long as you don't upset our national religion of mindless consumerism...

He may not use traditional energy, but that doesn't limit his comforts at home, where he has a hot tub, swimming pool and a big-screen TV. "I have all the amenities. I'm living large just like lots of Americans," Strizki said.

And to further prove that he's made no sacrifice in lifestyle, he can show off the horsepower in his hydrogen car. That's right. No more trips to the gas station. He fills up in the backyard.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2592352

So go ahead, buy more crap, everything will be just fine.

:eyes:

[jpak]

23. Maybe they should just build DYI molten salt breeder reactors in their basements

but wait, "someone" already has....

:evilgrin:

[jpak]

30. This deluded H2 dude runs ALL his electrical appliances, stove, space heaters, dryer and cars

with his solar H2 system.

a backyard BBQ is no problem...

[hunter]

32. Here's a "no problem..."

Barbecuing with Hydrogen Gas

Home Power #43 • October / November 1994

http://www.homepower.com/files/hp43p24.pdf (91KB)

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jpak]

28. Oh please

I've worked with high pressure H2 tanks for over 20 years (FID-GC) and know all about H2 embrittlement.

I've never know a single lab accident attributed to embrittlement failure of an H2 tank or plumbing.

High pressure electrolyzers and H2 storage tanks (>2200 psi) are in use today...

http://www.chewonkih2.org/index.shtml

google much????

:evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

31. Err, so?

high pressure H2 plumbing needs high quality steel that's very carefully machined. Were you in purchasing? Cos' if you've been nipping off to home depot for o-rings, it's a wonder you're your still alive.

[jpak]

33. No - to plumb lab instruments, all you need are standard H2 gas bottles, regulators, scrubbers

standard copper (or stainless steel) tubing and standard Swagelok fittings.

You can get these at local gas suppliers (or scientific supply companies).

None cost much more than other gas fittings/bottles/regulators etc..

It's not rocket science...and it's not the Hindenburg all over again.

Hydrogen is safer in many respects than other flammable gases.

[Dead_Parrot]

36. Whatever

http://www.secat.net/docs/projects/Materials_Solutions_for_Hydrogen_Delivery_in_Pipelines.pdf
http://www.humboldt.edu/~serc/h2safety.html
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/delivery/current_technology.html#pipes
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/delivery/pdfs/dtt_roadmap_11-05ver1_final_03-21-06.pdf
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/progress06/iii_a_3_das.pdf

Not that I expect you to read any these - Like a creationist confronted with a fossil, you'll jam your fingers in your ears, hum "Abide with me" very loudly, and if I'm really lucky, reply with a one-liner or maybe a smiley. It's what you usually do when presented with any sort of science.

However, I thought other people might be interested in where we're up to in dealing with the problems of hydrogen distribution and embrittlement. This is for their benefit.

[jpak]

38. Yawn - all old news to me

Also - you don't need pipelines to transport hydrogen.

The existing power grid could be used to transmit electricity from renewable sources to distributed electrolyzer and H2 storage facitilites....

electricity from your local PV/hydro/geothermal/wind farm -> power grid -> your home high pressure electrolyser -> your home high pressure storage tank -> your home H2 fuel cell -> electricity + heat

and *yawn* to the personal snark...

[Dead_Parrot]

39. So, you now don't want to use the existing gas infrastructure?

Just checking, 'cos that's what you said in #16.

Instead, you're now claiming the existing US grid could handle an extra 30EJ or so per year - even though it barely copes with the current load.

Again, whatever.

[jpak]

40. The propane distribution network is fundamentally different in many respects than NG

Propane storage utilizes tanks (RR tank cars, truck tankers, local distributor tank farms and consumer storage tanks) - not geo-storage - and tanks are used for much of the propane distribution network.

These same tanks and tank distribution networks could be used in the near term to store and distribute H2 from renewable sources.

And - thanks to foresight of many state energy offices - nearly all state Renewable Portfolio Standards have provisions to develop fuel cells for distributed CHP plants.

Connecticut alone is developing 100 MW of fuel cell capacity, and MW scale fuel cell plants are under development in OH, CA, NJ and NY.

Once this infrastructure is in place, the transformation from natural gas and propane to renewable hydrogen will be greatly facilitated.

Of course all this is lost on the Hydrogen Haters...

:evilgrin:

[Dead_Parrot]

43. Err... what?

We're talking about propane distrubution, right? "Propane usually goes by underground pipeline to terminals across the country." Things like the Dixie Pipeline.

So you're now back on to the propane distribution network, even though you want to chuck out the "network" part of it and shift everything by road or rail, in tanks? Have you any figures on how much this will increase transport energy? Or have you invented a solar-powered freight train nobody knows about?

For an encore, what's the hydrogen fuel cell capacity increasing by? I only ask because the last time you posted about a new MW-scale fuel cell, you totally missed the fact it will run off NG, not hydrogen.

Edit: I see where you are getting confused. For future reference, propane is normally a gas. As are NG and hydrogen, just in case you hadn't realised.

[RestoreGore]

27. So you can't use this without a hydrogen vehicle?