Gunman kills at least 12 or 13 people in Binghamtom N.Y.

[TWiley]

BINGHAMTON, N.Y. – Gov. David Paterson says "12 or 13" people were killed in an attack on an immigration services center in Binghamton, N.Y.

A federal law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity also says the shooter has been found dead in the building.

Officials and media reports have said as many as 41 hostages were taken.

The law enforcement official says the gunman entered the building through the front while firing. He had already blocked the back door with his car.

___

Associated Press writer Devlin Barrett in Washington contributed to this report.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

BINGHAMTON, N.Y. (AP) — A gunman walked into an immigration services center in downtown Binghamton on Friday, killing an unknown number of people, wounding at least six and taking as many as 41 hostage, officials said.

Two handguns were recovered at the scene, said a law enforcement official who was not authorized to speak publicly about the details of an ongoing hostage situation and was speaking on condition of anonymity.

Mayor Matthew Ryan told the Binghamton Press & Sun Bulletin that the gunman had a high-powered rifle.

The FBI was sending hostage negotiators and an evidence response team to the scene. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives was also sending agents to Binghamton.

The gunman barricaded the rear door of the American Civic Association with his car before entering through the front door, firing his weapon, the official said.

"We do know that a gunman entered the American Civic Association in Binghamton this morning and that there are fatalities," Gov. David Paterson said in a statement.

The Binghamton newspaper reported 41 hostages in the building of the American Civic Association and said apartments were being evacuated.

Emergency dispatchers were in contact with some people inside by phone, WBNG-TV reported. The gunman might still be in the building, the newspaper reported. The Binghamton SWAT team responded.

Indications were that the shooter was a young male, and it wasn't immediately clear whether he was still in the building, the law enforcement official said.

Full Story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/hostage_shooting

[ChairmanAgnostic]

1. I can hear it now: "Guns don't kill . . . "

The hell they don't.

[villager]

2. Guns have *nothing* to do with gun crimes! Nothing, I tell ya!

n/t

[TWiley]

5. Pretty silly reasoning dude. By defination guns have everything to do with gun crimes.

Otherwise, we would be talking about asparagus crimes, or crimes attributed to the silent fart.

[villager]

8. um, guess I forgot my sarcasm icon?

:shrug:

[TWiley]

10. Evidently so, I thought you were serious. That type of reasoning is common on this board.

Sorry for my mistake

[villager]

12. it is -- much that ought to be satire is offered in all seriousness in the gungeon...

n/t

[ChairmanAgnostic]

32. the chasm creates by sar can be quite large.

[Hugabear]

33. Or "he woulda killed that many people with a knife"

When is this madness going to end.

[xchrom]

3. massacre. nt

[louis-t]

4. Somebody's anti-immigration.

Excuse me, WAS anti-immigration.

[TWiley]

6. Probably a nutjob of a right-winger dont you think?

It reminds me of a different mass murder this year who killed jewish kids at church because he was defending his race.

[FudaFuda]

9. I'm not familiar with that story.

Where/when was this "mass murder this year who killed jewish kids at church because he was defending his race?"


I tried google. can't find it.

[TWiley]

13. Google Keith Luke; here is his picture

Such a sweet boy.

[FudaFuda]

16. OK. But he didn't actually kill any jewish kids like you said.

He wanted to, but he was stopped by police after killing his neighbors. 2 murders and rape. Dude needs to be assraped daily with a backwards pineapple, for life. He's scum. But he didn't actually go on a shooting rampage in a synagogue. That's why I didn't know about it.

[TWiley]

18. I guess I remembered it wrong then.

I know he killed some people to defend his race, and that he made the comment about jewish people. Sorry for my mistake.

[TheWraith]

30. He was a Vietnamese guy who apparently didn't speak English.

They're still not clear whether he was an American citizen or not.

[AtheistCrusader]

38. I don't know. I don't profile without any evidence at all.

[Warpy]

7. Let me guess, a Lou Dobbs fan

Hate mongers need to be taken off the air.

[TWiley]

11. I agree totally ..... confiscate their guns too.

That would be a great first step in making America safer

[rl6214]

17. I've got an Idea

Why don't we make murder illegal?

Oh wait, never mind.

[bossy22]

25. umm

ever heard of the first amendment?

[Warpy]

28. Does the first amendment allow us to yell "FIRE"

in a crowded theater?

The effect of hate radio has been clear for a very long time. It's what started the massacres in Bosnia and Rwanda. It was Hitler's tool to whip up rage against the Jews.

While I respect the first amendment rights of a lot of people whose ideas I utterly despise, I also recognize that whipping up hatred against one's fellow countrymen for any reason, religious, political or ethnic, should be discouraged.

That hate has gotten acted upon too many times and too many places.

[Furyataurus]

34. So if there

WAS a fire in the theater you wouldn't yell "fire"?????

[Raskolnik]

37. Yes, it does.

Now, if one *falsely* shouts "fire" in a crowded theater, one may be punished for that speech.

As much as people like to trot out that old chestnut in their rationales for restricting free speech, you'd think they would at least get it right.

[X_Digger]

40. Discouraged, yes, legislated no..

Contact the sponsors, picket the studio, etc- you know, exercise YOUR first amendment rights.

[FudaFuda]

14. Shooter was an asian male, probably vietnamese.

If Yahoo hadn't censored the story, you'd know that.

sorry TWiley and Warpy ... I know you were hoping for a white guy with an AK47, his car radio tuned to Hannity and his freeper card in his wallet .. maybe next time.

[TWiley]

20. Well, I am glad you feel better now.

However, I don't understand how the race of the alleged shooter can bring you any comfort. It sounds to me like you fit the description that you are defending. If so, then rest assured that America is big enough for all of us, and welcome to DU.

[FudaFuda]

26. Doesn't bring me any comfort, I just don't assume something like that beforehand. n/t

[TWiley]

41. That is admirable.

I usually consider what seems like the obvious. It can be sterotypical in hindsight.

[FudaFuda]

42. Understandable.

I was just being a bit of a smartass about the 'white gun nut' assumption wisecrack. It's not like I don't understand where you're coming from, but spree killing really doesn't belong to any single demographic. We've still got a heavy majority caucasian population in the USA, so most spree killers here are caucasian males. But not all - the VA tech shooter was korean, the D.C. snipers were black, and yesterday's nutcase was vietnamese. That kid Jess Weise who went off in 2005 was American Indian (and a neo-Nazi. Make sense of that.) And the USA doesn't have a monopoly on crazy-ass mass murder, either. These kind of spree killings do happen ALL OVER THE WORLD, unfortunately. There was one in Germany about a month ago. If you read Wikipedia's article at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killing , it lists events like this happening in Japan, Australia, Korea, Germany, New Zealand, China, UK. In other words, everywhere. Perhaps we have more in the USA, but the causes and influences producing that situation are more complex than simply blaming it all on 'guns.' We don't have a homogenous society like a lot of other countries, and I believe that creates a lot of the tension. I lived in Japan for 2 years back in the 90's, and it is a remarkably law-abiding nation. But it's also a country with practically no racial minorities or cultural dissonance to contend with.

well, we've got a one-day window of sunshine here today between April showers. I'm taking my 5yo daughter out for some kite flying. Daddy needs some positive waves after yesterday.

[TWiley]

43. You will notice that the shooter, regardless of race, sounded like a Lou Dobbs Program

He was triggered by poor english, and job loss to "immagrants"

[TWiley]

49. Update .... he WAS a nutjob right wing racist after all .....

Richard Andrew Poplawski was a young man convinced the nation was secretly controlled by a cabal that would eradicate freedom of speech, take away his guns and use the military to enslave the citizenry.

His online profile suggests someone at once lonely and seething. He wrote of burning the backs of both of his hands, the first time with a cigarette, the second time for symmetry. He subscribed to conspiracy theories and, by January 2007, was posting photographs of his tattoos on white supremacist Web site Stormfront. Among his ambitions: "to accumulate enough 'I punched that so hard' stories to match my old man."

-----

"He was really into politics and really into the First and Second amendment. One thing he feared was he feared the gun ban because he thought that was going to take away peoples' right to defend themselves. He never spoke of going out to murder or to kill," said Edward Perkovic, who described himself as Mr. Poplawski's lifelong best friend.

Mr. Poplawski's view of guns and personal freedom took a turn toward the fringes of American politics. With Mr. Perkovic, he appeared to share a belief that the government was controlled from unseen forces, that troops were being shipped home from the Mideast to police the citizenry here, and that Jews secretly ran the country.

-----

Believing most media were covering up important events, Mr. Poplawski turned to a far-right conspiracy Web site run by Alex Jones, a self-described documentarian with roots going back to the extremist militia movement of the early 1990s.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

[TWiley]

21. Just curious .... does FundaFunda mean you consider yourself a Fundamental Fundamentalist?

Just curious, I mean no harm by asking.

[FudaFuda]

24. FudaFuda, not fundafunda.

long story. it's a nickname. comes from japanese.

[dashrif]

15. 10 bucks

Says he on serotonin reuptake inhibitors

[TWiley]

19. 10 bucks .... he has Rush Lip-balm on his chapped lips ..... burned by his own hot air.

[dashrif]

23. Uh hot air

[SsevenN]

22. It's too bad

NY has such strict carry and purchase laws.

IF it were easier to legally carry, some one might have been able to stop this psycho earlier in his rampage.

But I guess you guys are just thrilled that they were practically forced to be defensless victims.

[dmallind]

27. Dollars to donuts he actually had a low powered rifle.

High powered rifles are generally very unwieldy evry expensive things intended for big game.

What most sensationalists call high powered rifles are usually the ugly black plastic military looking knock-offs which even in the original version tend to have very low powered rounds relative to even common juvenile deer rifles let alone true high powered specialty guns. The AK'S et al are generally designed to maximize nonlethal damage over wide areas. Of course they can and do kill people but so can .22 snub nose revolvers.

This is not just esoteric arcana. Calling such things high powered generally means we start trying to ban the wrong things such as the laughable AWB that worried about folding stocks and bayonet lugs when the average rural 12 year old gets something more powerful than that for a first hunting gun.

[FudaFuda]

29. 2 handguns

Unless more facts come out, law enforcement sources are saying two handguns were recovered at the scene. The source of the 'high-powered rifle' claim was the town's mayor. Wonder why he said that, if he didn't know? :eyes:

Still could be possible there was some kind of long arm involved. I agree with you - people don't know shit about fireamrs and then throw terms around and make more trouble. But I wouldn't agree with you about "we start trying to ban the wrong things' which implies there are more things we should ban. I think the 1934 NFA banned enough - even most gun nuts are happy to live under that one. 1968 I don't like, and yeah like you said don't even get me started on 1986 or 1994.

[dmallind]

45. Well I'm perhaps a bit more amenable to some restrictions.

There really IS in my mind no legitimate civilian interest in full auto machine guns for example. They are not particularly well suited for hunting, target shooting, or for any even vaguely realistic self defense scenario. The only argument for having one is to say I have one because I can. I certainly realize they are rarely used in crimes, but then so are howitzers and I don't think I could make a convincing argument for unfettered access to buying one at Walmart.

My criteria would be the "reasonbly skilled reasonably safe reasonably specific" standard. Any weapon which in the hands of a reasonably competent hobbyist could reasonably be deployed in a self defense situation in a typical urban setting and be likely to harm only the lethal risk it was aimed at (a lethal risk of course being the only thing a gun used in self defense should ever be aimed at) and nobody else should be freely available to mentally competent people without violent felony pasts (one particular ban I do disagree with is that on felons automatically being denied their RKBA. When you can get felony traffic tickets these days - and by the way I have no felony convictions of my own so this is not a personal complaint - the felon=disarmed idea is woefully misguided). The tendency of machine guns to be inaccurate, jumpy and tough to control disqualifies them.

I guess if zombies take over the earth and come at me in groups large enough and mobile enough to take me down in between reloading a couple of 17rd magazines or 8+1 12ga shells I'll regret my lack of interest in civilian machine gun ownership, but other than that I can't think of a scenario where they would be anything but decidedly LESS useful and less responsible than what I already have.

Opinions vary of course, but I'm certainly not a purist all guns for all people type.

But banning things because they are black plastic or have a folding stock? Stupidity incarnate.

[FudaFuda]

47. I'm down with that. :)

Yeah, I'm pretty much in agreement with ya on fully automatic machine guns. The way the law actually is, they're not completely 'banned', but it's pretty durn hard to come by one, super expensive, and just about instantly traceable if ever used for a crime. So, as you noted, there's only been one or two instances of a fully automatic weapon being used in a crime since the NFA of 1934. Other factors in later laws further limit civilian access to fully automatic weapons, particularly the law from 1986 that cut off any further importation. If it wasn't here in the USA and already registered by 1986, it's illegal.

So, if you've got about $10,000 or more burning a hole in your pocket and just want one for your collection, and you can pass an in-depth FBI background check, you can obtain one. Wouldn't bother me a whole lot if they'd just been banned from civilian possession altogether, but since the current status of things keeps both sides of the debate staisfied and there's no criminal impact, good enough.

What I don't like is some of the other NFA designated prohibitions, especially suppressors (i.e. silencers). While suppressors are not totally 'banned', they are strictly regulated and for no really good reason. Jump through the legal hoops and you can own one, but the gubmint will be wanting it's $200 tax, thanks very much. ** by the way, anyone who thinks a suppressor silences a gun so it can't even be heard in the next room watches too much TV ** Ironically in Europe where firearms are strictly controlled, suppressors are totally legal and in common use among those who do shoot, because theyre major hearing savers.

I also agree with you about the ban on 'felons' is outdated these days. Violent felons - that's a no brainer. But you can get a felony conviction for stealing your mom's check and 'forging' it at the gas station for beer. Stupid, and criminal, but not exactly the kind of thing worthy of depriving a person of a constitutional right over.

Anyway, just wanted to say, I think we're on the same page. I just hope the current administration and Congress doesn't make the mistake of moving back into the gun control arena - there's so much good that needs to be done right now on so many other problems. Going back to gun control again would be like pissing in the wind.

[TheWraith]

31. Any kind of rifle gets called a "high powered rifle" in a media report.

Even if it's a .22 LR job that's best suited to killing rabbits.

In any event, the more updated reports say he actually had two pistols, one 9 mil and one unspecified.

[Caliman73]

35. This is tragic

Instead of being so quick to jump for joy about what tool this person chose to kill people with, why are people not figuring out what is motivating people to continue on these mass murder sprees. And NO it isn't guns. There are societal issues that obviously influenced this person's decision to act.

[Furyataurus]

36. I say its time

for NY to be a "Shall issue" state.

[TheWraith]

39. Good luck with that. I'd love for the Sullivan Act to be fixed, but...

It's been entrenched for a VERY long time. Plus the sherrifs would probably fight it tooth and nail, since having the power to issue and revoke permits for any reason is a huge perk for them. I've said it before and I'll say it again, "may issue" laws create a strong incentive for corruption, and don't stop crime, but good luck explaining that to anyone.

Twenty bucks says this guy came by his guns illegally. Another twenty says that most of the guns used in crimes in New York state are illegally obtained. But still we've got ineffectual laws on the books. I'd love for all the money spend on Sullivan enforcement and paperwork to be spent hunting illegal gun sellers.

[rl6214]

44. Latest report

Says the gunman was wearing body armor, ready for a fight. Even had been going to a gun range to practice in the weeks prior.

You can't regulate or legislate that type of mindset out of someone. If they want to commit such a horrendous crime they are going to find a way to do it.

[Taitertots]

46. But, New York has among the strictest gun control laws in the nation

[TWiley]

48. A right wing nutjob ..... Update here

Richard Andrew Poplawski was a young man convinced the nation was secretly controlled by a cabal that would eradicate freedom of speech, take away his guns and use the military to enslave the citizenry.

His online profile suggests someone at once lonely and seething. He wrote of burning the backs of both of his hands, the first time with a cigarette, the second time for symmetry. He subscribed to conspiracy theories and, by January 2007, was posting photographs of his tattoos on white supremacist Web site Stormfront. Among his ambitions: "to accumulate enough 'I punched that so hard' stories to match my old man."

-----

"He was really into politics and really into the First and Second amendment. One thing he feared was he feared the gun ban because he thought that was going to take away peoples' right to defend themselves. He never spoke of going out to murder or to kill," said Edward Perkovic, who described himself as Mr. Poplawski's lifelong best friend.

Mr. Poplawski's view of guns and personal freedom took a turn toward the fringes of American politics. With Mr. Perkovic, he appeared to share a belief that the government was controlled from unseen forces, that troops were being shipped home from the Mideast to police the citizenry here, and that Jews secretly ran the country.

-----

Believing most media were covering up important events, Mr. Poplawski turned to a far-right conspiracy Web site run by Alex Jones, a self-described documentarian with roots going back to the extremist militia movement of the early 1990s.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

[BigBluenoser]

50. Wrong gunman...

I was kind of wondering why people were posting to the forgotten massacre of 13 innocents when they could drool over their new "progressive antis wet dream" who killed three cops in Pittsburgh.

Edited: 14 to 13.

[TWiley]

51. oops, there are too many mass shootings to keep track of ....

[BigBluenoser]

52. I think it was more likely caused by the joygasm...

of bringing in information on a shooter who fits the "perfect storm" of characteristics as opposed to bringing information on a case that is far more difficult for us to fit into our worldview (edit: by which I mean "our understanding of the world"). Maybe I'm wrong.

The NT shooting will only be a numbers footnote on DU for the anti crowd, the shooter is not as meme-ingful.