The police shooter had a bullet proof vest on - IT WAS A SET UP

[MrPerson]

Someone called in a domestic. The cops came. Got shot.

He had an AK-47.

[Pullo]

1. So we should ban body armor....

even though the average deer rifle will perforate it

[MrPerson]

2. Gun knowledge doesn't impress me. Peace knowledge does.

[opihimoimoi]

3. So Rare these daze....the art of peace.....Mongo 1327

[rl6214]

19. Constantly screaming for a gun ban

Does not constitute "peace knowledge".

[bbinacan]

23. What the hell

does that even mean?

[57_TomCat]

62. Peace is guaranteed by force of arms.

Gun knowledge doesn't impress me. Peace knowledge does.
Posted by MrPerson

As a soldier and cop I used firearms to promote peace by defending my country and the citizens under my care. When off duty I also use firearms to protect myself, my family and others as/if necessary.

My official title under state law is "Peace Officer", under Federal law it is "Police Officer".

You seem to be lacking peace knowledge to think firearms are not a intergral part of the modern peace process.

[villager]

7. Does the NRA instruct you in deliberately misinterpreting things?

n/t

[virginia mountainman]

10. Does brady tell you to lie???? nt

[villager]

32. Viginia Mountainman, you are one of those incapable of "discussing"

the issue...

You rage, you snark, you misinterpret, you name-call...

Nary a discussion bone in your body when it comes to talking about gun policy....

[virginia mountainman]

36. Their is a very good reason for that..

I have been fighting for this issue for almost 2 decades, and I have been a active Democrat for many years before that. And a while back, I got sick of being treated {by a few in here} like a second class citizen, who's views are perceived to be so wrong, that they did not even rate discussion. So a while back, I decided that when met with incredibly ignorant statements, repeatedly, from those who REFUSE to have a civil discussion, or even acknowledge basic facts, and they just kept tossing barbs and making snide comments, and repeating Certain Republicans over and over again, I decided just to stop sugar coating it, and be blunt. In other words I decided to;

"Let'em have it, and tell them in very plain language, just the way it is."

I still am HIGHLY ENGAGED in this issue, and very active, in State, and National politics on this issue. I have had an extremely good repertoire with Democratic Politicians and Candidates here in Virgina,

Just because I get "short" sometime, does not mean I am unwilling to have an honest debate, I cannot help that I am a sarcastic asshole at times, I have just learned to embrace my dark side.

And to be honest, I really enjoy rippin' idiots a new one...from time to time....

Villager I have made strong comments toward you in the past, did you ever stop to consider that we down here, in the Gunguon might just be correct about this stuff??

Please consider the following statement.......

It is very frustrating to try to have a discussion, about a red car, a red car that you OWN,and drive, with someone that has never seen it, but is convinced that it is a black car, and your just crazy if you disagree, because your some kind of "car nut".

[villager]

40. Well, VM, this may be the first time we've ever "talked"

...so that's something.

Yes, online lends itself to ripping folks a new one. I've done it myself.

But more and more, over gun issues, it seems utterly futile, and a kind of enmeshment.

I get pissed off, after each massacre -- and sorry, but they're coming more and more frequently, and the proliferation of guns isn't, uh, helping matters in that regard -- the "gun nuts" (to riff of your car nut phrase) rush to the board, showing not the least bit of empathy for the victims,, but instead caterwauling about "Gun, How Great Thou Art!," and using recycled NRA snark to imagine the Founding Fathers meant for psychopaths to have unchecked access to military-style weaponry at every backwater gun show.

Sorry. They didn't. And it is entirely reasonable for a society to impose reasonable limits on the proliferation of such weapons.

My thinking that doesn't mean I believe you are innately a bad person -- so quit being so goddamn defensive! But I am going to disagree with you on these policy issues.

Because, no, I don't want "car nuts" making transportation policy, quite frankly. Bichin' late 60's/early 70's V8s may be cool in their way, but you know, society can't always subsidize the road building, and the lack of alternative fuels and the absence of mass transit to please the car nuts.

And frankly, the same analogy applies here.

I know you disagree. But no name-calling is required for that disagreement.

[krispos42]

47. If I may enter your conversation here...

...the "gun nuts" (to riff of your car nut phrase) rush to the board, showing not the least bit of empathy for the victims...

This is factually true, but incomplete, as anti-gun people also do the same thing. It's become something I look for, and all the chaos I've unfortunately have a lot of recent stuff to look at.



...and using recycled NRA snark to imagine the Founding Fathers meant for psychopaths to have unchecked access to military-style weaponry at every backwater gun show.

Nobody wants psychopaths to have guns, and nobody will argue that the 2nd Amendment will protect their rights. The problem is that sometimes we don't know who the psychopaths are until too late.

I find the term "military-style" to be curious. Many "military-style" features are simply improvements in design to make guns more ergonomic, more balanced, more comfortable to shoot, more durable, or more reliable. It's easier to hold a gun with a protruding pistol grip than a traditional in-line grip, although in my personal experience I find the traditional grip quite comfortable. The reason I think they don't put a protruding pistol grip on a bolt-action rifle is because it's easier and faster to work a bolt from an inline grip.


Because, no, I don't want "car nuts" making transportation policy, quite frankly. Bichin' late 60's/early 70's V8s may be cool in their way, but you know, society can't always subsidize the road building, and the lack of alternative fuels and the absence of mass transit to please the car nuts.


Excellent point, actually. However, I'll note the corallary here. I don't want car-hating bike-riding hardcore enviromental activists making transportation policy either.

[virginia mountainman]

64. Well.....

I do have empathy for the victims, Virginia Tech cut extremely close to home for me and my family, but unfortunately I get very little time to to express it, because their is an instantaneous "up rising" to farther restrict gun rights. And yes, I am defensive, but I am constantly under attack by some in my own party, just because I believe in the Bill of Rights, without exception.

With in minutes of a mass shooting somewhere their is a talking head on the news, talking about "common sense" that in reality is pure ineffective bullshit. Actually I have noticed as of late, their appears to be a bit more balance on the news but that probably is because all but ONE of the recent rash of shootings where made by people using hunting arms, and common handguns. not the "feared" assault rifles

But that has not stopped the calls for a ban, from SOME in our party, and a few noisy Republicans.

Just for the record, I have no issues with people that don't like guns, and don't want them around, the problem is when those same people try to impose their views on the rest of us, and they start meddling in our gun cabinets, while deriding us as gun nuts.

I consider it a victory, to talk to an anti-gun person, and get them to at least understand where I am coming from, and to learn the facts, of the gun debate,and for them to realize that "the guns" are not pointed at them, and for them to respect my views. I don't want them to go out and buy a gun...

But I want them, and by logical extension, ME, to have that option if wished.

I want them to know the TRUTH, about guns....IE I want them to know about that "red car" that is red, and for them to point and laugh when Sara Brady tells them it is a black one.

All I want is to educate, the facts, and reality will carry the day.

Even if the person remains Anti-gun...They will at least be able to spot the bullshit..

[MrPerson]

12. They got the talking points down. They come with the gun.

[rl6214]

20. They've got the talking points down

It comes with the rhetoric, or it is the rhetoric.

[hedgehog]

11. If a deer rifle will perforate a bullet proof vest,

1. what are our troops wearing in Iraq?

and

2. What is left of the deer after being shot, presumably sans vest?

[Taitertots]

16. 1.Bullet resistant vests

2.The vast majority of the meat

[rrneck]

24. They're different

Ballistic vest

A ballistic vest is an item of protective clothing that absorbs the impact from firearm-fired projectiles and shrapnel fragments from explosions. This protection is for the torso. Soft vests are made from many layers of woven or laminated fibers and protect wearers from projectiles fired from handguns, shotguns, and small fragments from explosives such as hand grenades.

When metal or ceramic plates are used with a soft vest, it can also protect wearers from shots fired from rifles. In combination with metallic components or tightly-woven fiber layers, soft armor can offer some protection to the wearer from stab and slash from a knife. Soft vests are commonly worn by police forces, private citizens and private security guards or bodyguards, and hard-plate reinforced vests are mainly worn by combat soldiers in the armies of various nations as well as police tactical units and hostage rescue teams.

Hard vests are hot, heavy, expensive and uncomfortable (I think soldiers call them "full battle rattle"). Also, even thought the hard vests are better, they are designed to stop a medium powered rifle cartridge. Your grandad's hunting rifle is a lot more powerful than a military rifle.

Interceptor body armor

Two small-arms protective inserts may also be added to the front and back of the vest, with each plate designed to stop up to three hits from 7.62x51mm NATO M80 ball ammunition, with a muzzle velocity of 2,750 feet per second (838 m/s). The plates are the most technically advanced body armor fielded by the U.S. military, and are constructed of boron carbide ceramic with a Spectra/Dyneema shield backing that breaks down projectiles and halts their momentum before reaching the wearer.

What is left of the deer after being shot, presumably sans vest?

Dinner. :)

Seriously though; I believe a bullet, when properly placed, creates a wound channel through the area of the heart and lungs, killing the deer through massive internal hemmoraging. It is, of course, possible to kill a deer with a shot through the central nervous system, but the spine and brain present a smaller and more difficult target.

[hedgehog]

27. OK - I guess I was thinking that bullets tend to shatter when they

enter a body so my conclusion was that a bullet forceful enough to penetrate a Kevlar vest would make hamburger of the deer.

[Taitertots]

31. Your conclusion is wrong

A round weak enough to be stopped by a police bullet resistant vest would be inhumane to be used against deer.

[rrneck]

34. Although it doesn't take long

to get beyond my knowledge of ballistics, military bullets can shatter. I think it has something to do with the way the brass is crimped around the bullet creating a weak spot that will allow it to break up. Hunting bullets expand (mushroom) to slow the bullet, create more damage, and transfer as much of the energy from the bullet as possible to the target.

A bullet resistant vest is designed to distribute the force of the bullet throughout the vest. Dissipating the force is actually what stops the bullet. If a bullet is very heavy, very fast, or even really pointy (that's what makes knives and axes work), that can help beat the vest. Hunting rifles use ammunition designed to shoot a lot farther accurately by utilizing a larger heavier bullet that travels faster and that will retain its energy and accuracy over long distances. If I'm not mistaken, many military sniper rifles are basically hunting rifles, since snipers usually don't have to shoot a lot of rounds fast.

Here's a youtube video of a 30.06 (hunting rifle) into a gelatin block. (Gelatin blocks are used to test ballistics because they are about the same consistency as living tissue). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8Laf-A6HMY&feature=related The shot happens about half way through.

The movies tend to exaggerate the effects of bullets with bodies flying about. Whoever or whatever gets shot usually just falls down and that's it. When you think about it, people wouldn't have been hunting with rifles for hundreds of years if the rifle made the game useless to eat.

Sorry about the long post. I probably told you a lot more than you wanted to know. And I may have told you more than I know. :)

It's a pretty grisly subject all the way around.

[X_Digger]

25. Civilian LEO / non-swat 'bulletproof vests'..

are designed to stop _handgun_ caliber rounds. Virtually _any_ rifle above 22lr will penetrate the 'bullet proof' vest.

[Furyataurus]

26. Basically two types of vests

1. Soft armor like most police officers wear and most(????) S.W.A.T. and normally holds against handgun rounds favorably while it might stop just one or lessen the damage of one rifle round.

and

2. Plate carriers. Just like the name implies its an actual "plate" of ceramic armor to keep weight down and it will successfully stop at least 4 rounds of Armor Pierceing ammo before its "compromised" to the point to where the next round just passes completely through.



Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=861L7Ly-gR4

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. You aren't really understanding the physics involved here.

"Bullet" proof vests in some cases can easily be penetrated by knives. They have made changes in the past ten years or so that has made the vests more protective against knife attacks. They aren't designed to stop high velocity rounds (rifle rounds). They are designed to stop relatively low velocity rounds (pistol rounds). The armor our troops are wearing in Iraq is fortified with ceramic plates over key areas to stop higher velocity rounds. Many of the troops though have complained about the increased weight that causes problems with mobility.

David

[krispos42]

52. What the cops wear is designed to stop the most common guns...

...used to kill people; namely, handguns and pistols.


The stuff the cops wear will stop common handguns round (except maybe for the really, big stuff) and buckshot and slugs from a shotgun. Won't stop really any kind of rifle, though. Too much energy concentrated into too small of an area.


The Box 'O Truth has a section of Type IIIA vest material going through it's paces. Even if the vest keeps you from being perforated by the bullet, you're going to feel like a steroid-enhanced mule just kicked you in the chest!

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

[virginia mountainman]

4. To bad a bullet proof vest does not cover the head...

Where two of the cops where shot..

And besides, piercing a bullet proof vest is small potatoes, I have DOZENS of firearms, only about 4 of them will not... Practically ALL, rifles will go thru both sides of one, like a hot knife thru butter.

Every Deer rifle in the US, will slice and dice one.....

[MrPerson]

5. Keep your gun knowledge to yourself. It doesn't impress me.

This guy was sick.

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrPerson]

8. To call gun ownership a civil right is a perversion of the term.

[virginia mountainman]

9. People that fight to restrict civil rights...

Are Republicans...

[Mira]

13. So very well said.

:yourock:

[jefflrrp]

14. Un huh. yeah. Agreed.

And blathering idiots who speak nonsense is a perversion of the 1st Amendment. Lets ban them too:sarcasm:

[bossy22]

15. well technically it is

gun ownership in america is not a privalege, its a right

you can argue whether it should or should not be...thats fine...but currently its a right

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. Take it up with the 7 members of SCOTUS that disagree with you.

[MrPerson]

50. I've argued before them but not on gun issues.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. I hope for your clients sake you were better at it than you are here.

[Raskolnik]

66. Ha! Now *this* is the funniest thing I've seen you post.

You've made dozens (hundreds?) of incoherent, rambling posts in the last two days or so, but this has to take the cake.

Here's a hint: if you're going to lie, at least make it a lie within the realm of possibility. Maybe tell us that you ran off some copies for a guy who argued before the Supreme Court. Or, maybe you thought you saw David Souter at Burger King once.

[dairydog91]

67. Could it be?

Is this the legal equivalent of the http://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/">Mall Ninja?

[rl6214]

21. This is the first truthfull thing you have said

This guy was sick.

[Iktomiwicasa]

28. What I shoot for fun 'n games are

big bore black powder cartridge rifles and even larger bore muzzleloading rifles. It's very doubtful that a .69 caliber patched round ball would penetrate a hard vest, but the person wearing it would likely suffer a serious or even fatal injury from blunt force trauma.

[X_Digger]

29. zomg! satellite / plane killing gun!! over .50 cal! < sarcasm > n/t

[Iktomiwicasa]

30. Hahaha!

[zbird]

17. I thought it was the Binghamton NY shooter with the body armor.

Different nut, different day.

[rl6214]

18. Where is your proof

That it was an ak47. I haven't seen that in any report.

[jedr]

22. It's true...he had three guns;

an AK-47, a 22 long rifle and a hand gun, as per Pittsburgh Police news conference at 3 PM. But what is bothering me about this whole discussion is that it isn't totally about guns. This is a young man with mental problems ( heath care) lost his job (economy) and right wing propaganda (they're going to take our guns away)and white supremacy (racism)...what a wonderful nation the Bush administration has left us with. Pittsburgh is a tight knit community and we will grieve this for a few days, and the national implications will go on for weeks.

[Taitertots]

33. He had a 50+ year old fully automatic weapon? n/t

[jedr]

35. Not sure of your point;

I still hunt hunt with a 30-30 that's about 80 yrs old and is fully functional. My point was that's this is not just a gun issue, it's about of generation of disfranchised people. No apologies for this persons actions, I hope that he rots in hell, but systematically destroying the middle class has it ramifications.

[Taitertots]

37. My point is that is was more than likely not an AK-47

I don't believe the AK-47 was ever imported as a semi-auto rifle and he didn't have an NFA registered piece. This means it was very likely not an AK-47.


I still hunt with my great grandpa's shotgun.

[X_Digger]

38. There are many semi-auto clones..

Many com-bloc countries exported AK pattern rifles, and many ended up here. There are relatively few 'true' AK-47s in semi-auto in the US (they do command high prices), and danged fewer in full auto on the NFA registry (nobody's 100% sure, since the registry isn't public.)

[Taitertots]

39. Why say AK-47, when they mean semi-automatic clone?

The gun he used is no more an AK-47 than my Browning shotgun is a street sweeper.

[X_Digger]

44. Agreed.. but hey..

This is the MSM we're talking about.. every black rifle is an M-16, and anything with a curving banana magazine is an AK-47.

[Taitertots]

45. It is even worse than that

Mexicans are buying grenades and automatic weapons from our gun show loop hole. Any curved magazine is a clip, any clip a magazine. Any semi-automatic is a assault rifle, any bolt action is a sniper rifle, and every round is a high powered cop killer bullet.

[57_TomCat]

61. The AK47 as a descriptor...

has passed the media test and is even considered correct to collectors to describe a class of full auto AND semi-auto firearms. Most of the semi-auto AK varients did NOT meet the assault weapon definition as long as they did not have the folding stock, bayonet lug and flash hider. They were easily available even during the ban. As such the name AK47 has come to mean any of the type.

I dislike the term being used for them all but AK47 does cover the description well. When I hear that term I think of my egyptian Maadi version in semi-auto trim but I still think of the style.

What gets my goose is calling the SKS carbine a AK. That is just sooooo wrong.

[virginia mountainman]

65. We know it is a Descriptor...

But what about the masses??

They don't, they take it at face value...

[jedr]

43. O.K. ...don't know for sure, just what was reported on the news;

I do know that a local gun shop advertised ak-47's for $300 a few years ago. I don't know what model or where they were made. Thanks for the information.

[spin]

46. While true AK-47 rifles are full auto, semi-auto variants are available...

AK-47 collectors in the U.S. have faced numerous obstacles over the years. Since a true, all original, fully automatic Kalashnikov is not available to the ordinary citizen, several U.S. companies make semi-auto versions compliant under gun control laws using a mix of imported and domestic parts. Rifle quality and pricing varies drastically. From parts kits to complete AK-47 rifles, we’ve got buyer tips for the novice and serious collector in this Firearms First semi-auto AK47 buyer’s feature.

True AK-47 rifles are fully automatic, however, with the exception of class III dealers it is illegal to posses them in the U.S. despite the constitution. The full auto Class III Tax Stamp is, for all intents and purposes, next to impossible for the average U.S. citizen to get. Enter the semi-auto variants, from Chinese imports to U.S. manufactured receivers and parts, this is as close to legally owning a true AK-47 as the ordinary private citizen can get, in most states.

Under current federal law a semi auto AK-47 with sufficient U.S. parts made with a commercial receiver is legally available to the private citizen, in most states, without conviction of a felony. It is also legal to build an AK-47 yourself from a manufactured receiver provided by companies such as Tapco and Precision Metal Works.

Current market prices on complete rifles vary from around $300 to $1800. There are many available variants on the market today of varying quality and in many configurations. You will hear terms like “pre-ban” and “post-ban” also reflecting significant price differences.
http://www.firearmsfirst.com/?p=16

Considering this advertisement, it's understandable how the weapon was described as an AK-47. It might be more accurate to use "semi-auto AK-47", but the media and many officials will always say AK-47.

[krispos42]

48. Civilian-legal AK-47

Made from AK-47 blueprints but semi-auto-only, not readily convertable to fully-automatic fire.

[MrPerson]

49. The cops here said AK-47. I'm in Pittsburgh.

[MrPerson]

51. here's the link

http://post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960749-53.stm

[krispos42]

53. Thanks for the link

I'm busy with my kid on weekends and am only able to sporadically follow news events like this. No cable, either... :-(




He apparently lay in wait, armed with an AK-47 assault-style rifle, a .22-caliber rifle and a revolver and wearing a bulletproof vest.



So it was a semi-automatic-only AK-47. What I expected... actual military-issue fully-automatic AK-47s are very rate and cost thousands of dollars even for a beater. If he could affort a full-auto AK-47, he wasn't in economic hardship.


I see that the 3rd officer died. :-(

[MrPerson]

54. He let go 100 rounds

[krispos42]

55. I've done that before...

...but with a bolt-action .22 rifle. A fun day at the range... $11 for a brick of 500 rounds of bullets, $2 range fee, 99¢ to fill up my mug with soda, and about three hours of fun.


It's a lot of bullets, but you'll note he didn't get anybody past his initial sucess with the first-on-the-scene officers.

One reason I would prefer mass-shootings to terrorist bomb attacks is that with shootings you have time to run. Bombs go off, and within milliseconds you're either hurt or you're not. Oklahoma City and London Subway bombings come to mind. But with guns... people have time to react, to run and hide and takce cover.

[MrPerson]

56. It took the SWAT team 45 minutes to get there.

[57_TomCat]

58. Excellent point

Original Message
It took the SWAT team 45 minutes to get there.
Posted by MrPerson

So true...when seconds count the cops are only minutes away.

[57_TomCat]

59. I am off to the range later this morning with

250 rounds in the bag for my pistol and another 150 for the rifle. I plan to bring back the brass only.

[57_TomCat]

60. Sometimes this job does...

have a down side. Still I will continue to respond to calls for service.

[AlinPA]

63. From what I've read so far the shooter seemed to know exactly what he was doing. He had on

his bulletproof vest and was ready for the police. I am not a psychiatrist but question whether this guy in Pittsburgh is really "mentally ill". He has a political agenda and was acting it out.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm