Antis treat gun owners the way Freepers treat Democrats

[friendly_iconoclast]

Read some of both groups Net postings and you will find:

Fear, outright paranoia, half-truths, untruths, and generous dollops of cultural warfare
sprinkled with disdain and ill-concealed elitism.

The only difference is more racism from the Freepers and more misandry from the antis.

[virginia mountainman]

1. Yep.... The amount of bullshit flying is unreal.... nt

[villager]

2. And gun owners don't treat "antis" that way, when any reasonable discussion

of gun policy in an organized society comes up?

"Brady Bunch Clowns," "Gun grabbers," etc., etc. -- the name calling is a first recourse 99% of the time, and I think the automatic corrosiveness of the rhetoric is a byproduct of spending too much time with NRA propaganda...

[virginia mountainman]

3. I guess you just had your 1% just now???

Propaganda???

[villager]

55. Your indecipherable snark is a perfect example

...of what I'm talking about.

You are innately incapable of "discussion" on this issue...

[pipoman]

73. Yea, here's a prime example of 'reasonable discussion'..

from the very first post...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3860813#3860821

[Euromutt]

105. We do try, at least initially

Speaking for myself, I'm a reformed gun control supporter.
The main thing that made me flip was the realization that American government, at all levels, refuses to be held responsible for the safety of its individual citizens. As a political science major, I understand that authority (the legitimate exercise of power) and responsibility are two sides of the same coin, and that therefore, a government that refuses to accept responsibility for the safety of its citizens ipso facto abdicates the authority to deprive said citizens of the means to protect themselves.

Now, I do operate from the principle that most proponents of gun control are motivated by the best intentions, namely a desire to reduce violent crime and the attendant suffering. I detest terms like "gun-grabber," especially when applied indiscriminately to proponents of gun control, and I don't have a lot of patience for the idea that even advocates of prohibition of private ownership of firearms are by definition evil for wanting to do so. But that having been said, there is undeniably a tendency in more activist gun control/prohibition circles to regard privately owned firearms as the (note definite article) cause, rather than a (note indefinite article) tool, of violent crime. And this view all to readily becomes an article of faith, and the person holding it becomes highly resistant to empirical evidence that suicide rates are higher in certain countries with tighter gun control than the United States, or that violent crime rates (excluding homicide) are higher in many wealthy industrial nations with tighter gun control laws than they are in the US, or that if you factor out young urban black males, the American homicide rate isn't all that remarkable.

Dammit, we're all progressives here; is it really all that hard to imagine that the socio-economic inequalities in our society have fostered the creation of an underclass of black males in inner cities who opt for a life of crime (mostly related to the drug trade) because it provides them with a quicker and more certain return than seeking higher education? And that this is exacerbated by criminal justice policies that result in one black male in three having spent time in jail or prison, and has created several successive generations of "prison orphans" who are now six times as likely as their peers to land behind bars? And is it so unreasonable to be derisive of people who seem to think that banning private ownership of firearms could make these problems go away?

[doctor jazz]

4. So true. Thanks.

...

[Orrex]

5. FACT: Every person who ever died was killed by an automatic rifle

I swear it's true.

[NewMoonTherian]

94. That's an absolutely ridiculous claim.

In Britain they're all killed with butter knives.

[ShortnFiery]

6. Oh geeze, if both sides continue the hyperbole we'll not ever discuss and reach workable

compromises. :(

[virginia mountainman]

7. I am willing to compromise...

What is the Anti-gun side willing to give up???

I will be watching for suggestions...

[ShortnFiery]

14. I hope - want to believe - that now is the time for thoughtful and rational conversation

can be accomplished that serve both sides. Many of us are Pro-Gun and don't want ANY confiscated that are legally registered. However, as the economy slips lower and lower, SOME people are going to opt for "death by cop."

There should be a way that we can "work together" to keep the most dangerous automatic weapons MONITORED, not taken, just like the law enforcement people must always know where their firearms are at, some people with semi- or auto- rifles MAY consider working toward ensuring that their rifles are locked up in a gun safe.

Small measures like the above ... at least back and forth sharing of perspectives instead of YELLING past each other. :shrug:

[virginia mountainman]

19. Actually..

the most dangerous automatic weapons ARE TIGHTLY monitored....And highly restricted..

Read below...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act#Categories_of_Weapons_Regulated

I was thinking, If you want something "more tightly restricted" their should be something "given" back... In particular the "The Hughes Amendment"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Machine_gun_ban_.28The_Hughes_Amendment.29

Something along those lines..

Most of us, are reasonable, but don't expect us to compromise on things we already have. That is just silly, Offer us something we DON"T have now, than we can talk.

That is TRUE compromise.

[ShortnFiery]

20. Understood. And many times those of us who don't "keep up" are amusing, but we want to learn

what is and is not feasible.

Oh, and I forgot the glib, gallow's humor term is not "Death by Cop" but "Suicide by Cop." :blush: Seriously, that option seems to be increasing in frequency. I'd be interested in researching some statistics as this economic downturn plays out.

[Andy823]

11. You are right, and

It's not just the gun issue, but just about everything else also. There seems to always by two sides that are far left, or right, and nobody wants to meet in the middle. This country can not mend itself till both sides of any issue can get together and compromise! Our president is trying to compromise, yet there are two sides that are not willing to meet in the middle with him. It has to be their way or the highway, and no compromise. I see this all the time with politics, religion, guns, rights, etc. Those of us who do want to see things worked out and a compromise made, seem to be the minority these days! :-(

[Taitertots]

23. No compromise is offered

There is no compromise being offered to people who support gun rights. All the is ever asked is concession and every concession meets new concession demands.


Here is a compromise. Remove the 1986 ban on new machine guns in the civilian registry, and end the gun show loophole by allowing private inquiries into the NICS database.

[HALO141]

80. heheheh Good a place as any to start.

Don't think you'll get any takers, though.

[Callisto32]

88. Hole-Lee Crap

Officially nominated for best idea of the year.

[frebrd]

8. Agree with OP.....

Thank you!

[Buck Laser]

9. Geez! Talk about yer persecution complex!!!

The worst whining on the web comes from the gun people. You'd think they were being tortured or something. They seem to think the key to "peace" is giving everyone a gun. How did we ever come to this?

[MrPerson]

12. Bad potty training.

[SteveM]

76. Have you checked your own pants lately?

[friendly_iconoclast]

17. "They seem to think the key to "peace" is giving everyone a gun."

Sometimes, these things just write themselves....

"It's not what you don't know, it's what you think you know that ain't so"

[Mercracer]

110. Silliness

2nd Amendment groups are not advocating this. The same can be said about the advocating of eliminating college campus gun bans. It is not that they are advocating that everyone has to or should carry a concealed firearm. It is that they are advocating for mature reasonable responsible adults to have the ability to do so legally if they so desire. That is what the 2nd Amendment is about. The premise that we all have the right to bear arms and the duty to defend ourselves, our government and our way of life.

[rl6214]

38. And the gun grabbers think

that the key to peace is taking away every legally owned gun (mrperson for one)

[Tim01]

10. They remind me of homophobes and fundamentalists.

They just don't like guns. They don't know why, they don't care.
And they are unwilling to listen to anything.

[walkaway]

13. It's only going to get worse

little by little people are going to marginalize gun owners more.

The children in my family aren't allowed to visit homes with guns. More people are choosing to keep their kids away from gun owners who aren't trained professionals.

As people become more educated and confident they will give up this dangerous obsession with death toys. Bibles and guns will give way to reason and intellect.

The fewer guns in the world the safer it will be. I won't "take" you gun away but I suggest you give it up and stop exposing your children to it.

[ShortnFiery]

15. It doesn't have to. Communities need to get more involved and work WITH law enforcement.

We don't have to make this an "us vs. them" battle. Many of us are pro-gun but are concerned that as increasing numbers of stressed people become less "stable" mostly due to financial hardships of the time, we should WORK TOGETHER to ensure there are people to talk with and NOT easy access to the most dangerous automatic weapons. :shrug:

[Buck Laser]

21. But that's not what the gun nuts want, is it?

They seem to want guns everywhere. And engaging them in real discussion is fucking impossible. Most will become right wingers if someone tries to talk sensible gun laws.

[ShortnFiery]

22. Hey, there are extremes on most ever issue. We need to "get out more" and communicate.

That's why Rural America is seemingly so lost. They are isolated and MANY buy into what FOX news and their neighbors tell them. Not all, but if you don't interact with many people, it's tempting to assume the worst of us "city folk." :(

[pipoman]

74. I think one of the larger issues is misinformation

I have been hereabouts for quite a while. What I have seen over and over is that those who advocate gun control, by and large, have no idea what the existing laws are. They have not studied the issue and have come to the table with notions which are, very simply, erroneous. Case in point is the constant portrayal in MSM of assault weapons legislation having anything to do, what so ever, with automatic weapons (if the gun control advocate even understands the difference between automatic, semi automatic, etc). Very often when MSM runs a story related to assault weapons, they show stock footage of people shooting fully automatic weapons. This is no mistake, they are counting on people not understanding the issue and propagandizing the issue with falsehoods.

Right here in this very thread you have mentioned 'automatic weapons' twice. This indicates to many pro liberal 2nd Amendment advocates that you really don't have a grasp on this issue, nor existing firearms law. For instance:

1. automatic weapons fall under heavy restrictions created way back in 1934 known as NFA or National Firearms Act (with the support of the NRA, btw), requiring automatic weapons to be registered and their owners must jump through numerous hoops to own them. Further automatic weapons are subject to legislation passed in 1986 which closed the NFA registry for private ownership. This bit made it impossible to register new automatic weapons even if a person is willing to jump through all of the hoops necessary to legally own one. The result is that if a person wants to own an automatic weapon, the least expensive options on the market are somewhere just below $10k and up from there.

2. Automatic weapons used in crime are exceedingly rare in the US, in fact it has been well over 10 years since the last criminal incident involving an automatic weapon.

3. Regularly people make statements about "easily converted" semi autos to fully auto...is extremely difficult or impossible, simply doesn't happen.

I could go on but you get the idea. People get frustrated with the same people, even after being educated in one thread or another, who continue to propagandize this issue.

[friendly_iconoclast]

32. Two canards here for discussion, folks

Thanks for providing examples for me, Buck.

1. "Gun owners want guns everywhere"

They seem to want guns everywhere

I also advocate freedom of speech and First Amendment rights. Does that mean I want child pornography freely available to all?


2. "Leftist/progressives don't own guns, and have always advocated pacifism"

Most will become right wingers if someone tries to talk sensible gun laws.

Like well-known right wingers such as the Black Panthers, Mother Jones, the United Mine Workers
(see Barbara Koppel's Harlan County, USA), the Deacons For Defense and Justice, Harriet Tubman,
Eleanor Roosevelt, the White Panthers, and the American Indian Movement?

And, I would remind people of one number: 1994. The AWB of that year cost the Democratic party
control of Congress and helped torpedo Al Gore's Presidential bid in 2000.

Historical ignorance is not a pretty thing. Gun controllers, it seems, would rather have 100% of
nothing rather than 80% of something.

[SteveM]

79. "You have become your own enemy in the instant that you preach" -- B. Dylan

[konnichi wa]

84. It's ironic, I'm a gay senior citizen who's had guns for 55 years.

Nobody in real life has ever called me a "gun nut" but I have been called a faggot. It's exactly the opposite on DU where 'faggot' is no more tolerated than 'nigger' but every foul descriptive in the English language can be used on gun owners with no compunction or penalty whatever.

[X_Digger]

37. Easy access to automatic weapons?

See you had me until that last bit.. you're starting from a false premise. Kind of hard to meet in the middle if you're already standing on my toes.

[Tim01]

16. So,

if it was shown to you that guns are no worse than anything else, knives and baseball bats, would it make any difference to you?

[walkaway]

27. I think that if the man who just killed 13 people were carring a knife or a bat

there would be a very different out come. The important thing is for people who feel they need guns so desperately to find a better way to feel safe and in control of their lives.

As far as the "numbers" are concerned, they are easy to manipulate. If it makes you feel better to think a gun and a baseball bat are the same then I can see where you are coming from.

Hopefully, the next generation of your family will live in a world that isn't filled with guns. You may hope otherwise, that is your right.

I believe that the way to make that change is to make gun owners socially unexceptable. Not to allow our children in their homes and not to spend time socially with them. (unless they are law officers or serving in the military)

[Tim01]

48. I don't think so.

"The important thing is for people who feel they need guns so desperately to find a better way to feel safe and in control of their lives."
No, the important thing is for people to actually BE safe.
There is already plenty of violence against people who "feel safe" when they are not at all. And this false sense of security is used as a tool by violent criminals. The people who encourage this untrue info get people actually hurt and killed while making them "feel" safe.

You never answered my question.
I am going to assume you don't care what the truth is, you just feel you are right. You are afraid of guns so you want them gone, you don't want anybody else to have them either. After they are gone you will feel safe.

[SteveM]

81. Your prescription is to make hatred socially acceptable...

"I believe that the way to make that change is to make gun owners socially (sic) unexceptable."

This is a prescription for hatred and exclusion based on your own ignorance. I find very little difference between your belief and those of extreme religionists who refuse to allow their children to associate with those with whom they disagree. Haven't we had enough of that?

BTW, I have found greater acceptance of gun-owners among folks who were more suspicious a few years ago. They seem to have come up to speed on the issues surrounding gun-control, and realize that the gun-control "movement" is not only built on sand, but based on prohibition/animosity toward what the sociologists call "the hated Other."

Take a look in the mirror.

[konnichi wa]

85. You want to live in a society where only cops and soldiers can bear arms?

That's the stupidest fucking idea I have ever heard.

[pscot]

31. Absolutely

If you can show where ballbats or boyscout knives were used to kill a bunch of cops, or mow down a roomfull of innocents, I'll throw in the towel. The fact is, it don't happen. Baseball bats are made for hitting a ball. Their use as a weapon is purely incidental and unpremeditated. Guns are made for killing. That is their purpose. When someone shoots up a room full of people or kills a policeman with a gun, he knows what he's doing. That gun is being used for its designed purpose. Anyone who walks around with a gun on their hip is making a declaration, loud and clear: "I am prepared to take the life of another human being." Either that, or "I have a tiny dick and I'm sublimating.".

[Iktomiwicasa]

54. Another Mighty Penis award

to you.

[SteveM]

82. "He who first smelt it dealt it" -- Freud

[Tim01]

56. I don't know why you started insulting me, I didn't insult you.

[DrCory]

58. Your Towel Sir...

It happened in Shanghai:

http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Shanghai_knifeman_kills_five_police_in_revenge_attack_999.html

[DrCory]

71. Patiently Awaiting Your Towel Sir

Just in case you missed my earlier reply to this:

"If you can show where ballbats or boyscout knives were used to kill a bunch of cops, or mow down a roomfull of innocents, I'll throw in the towel."

Here 'ya go: http://www.sinodaily.com/reports/Shanghai_knifeman_kills_five_police_in_revenge_attack_999.html

[DrCory]

72. Forgot About This One...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/01/23/belgium.nursery.attack/index.html

Still waiting on that towel.

[benEzra]

75. Far more are murdered with baseball bats, knives, and bare hands than with "assault weapons."

Please check out the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, Table 20, Murder, by State and Type of Weapon. Bats and clubs would be in the "other weapons" category, along with bricks and rope. Nearly all so-called "assault weapons" are in the Rifles category.

2006 data:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2006/data/table_20.html
Total murders............................14,990.....100.00%
Handguns..................................7,795......52.00%
Other weapons (non firearm, non edged)....2,158......14.40%
Edged weapons.............................1,822......12.15%
Firearms (type unknown)...................1,465.......9.77%
Shotguns....................................481.......3.21%
Hands, fists, feet, etc.....................833.......5.56%
Rifles......................................436.......2.91%

[Euromutt]

106. Ever hear of Yang Jia?

He's a guy who stormed into a police station in a suburb of Shanghai last July and knifed nine policemen, six of whom died. Or Yan Yanming? He ran amok in a school dormitory in Ruzhou, China in November 2004 and knifed twelve boys, nine of whom died. How about Mamoru Takuma? He knifed 21 students and two teachers at a school in Osaka prefecture, Japan in June 2001, leaving eight children dead. Seven years later to the day, Tomohiro Kato ploughed a rented truck into a crowd in Tokyo's Akibahara district, killing three and injuring two, and then proceeded to attack members of the crowd with a knife, wounding eight and killing four, for a total of seven dead and ten wounded.

That's four incidents right off the bat that, according to you, "don't happen."

[doctor jazz]

18. Are your children allowed to visit police stations?

Just wondering because as a former policeman I can assure you that as a group they're no more 'professionally trained' than a typical mature long time 'civilian' gun owner/hunter.

[walkaway]

33. Trained by who?

As a former police officer I am sure that you must remember being monitored for temperament problems, alcohol abuse, even vision problems. Who is checking up on your buddies the hunters after they get their license?

Can you even imagine if I suggested that there should be a law that makes gun owners stand up to the standards we expect from our law officers?

[friendly_iconoclast]

40. What standards should Internet posters be required to follow?

Maybe we should license them, and ban "dangerous and unusual opinions".

It's a civil right, and if you don't care for it, you need to take it up with the Supreme Court.

Ignorance of what is and isn't Constitutionally permissable in regard to gun laws is ~not~
a positive virtue

[walkaway]

44. Just because a right wing court has been reading

unlimited gun rights into the wording of the constitution does not mean it's true. And I wouldn't even bother to try to take your gun away. I just advocate marginalizing gun owners. You will alway be accepted in the deep red states but you are becoming more of a dinosaur everyday.

[X_Digger]

51. Nice straw man..

Had you actually read Heller you'd know that's not what it says.

[friendly_iconoclast]

70. Of course they haven't read Heller.

Why mar the beauty of rhetoric with grubby facts?

[hack89]

95. Is that why gun sales are at record levels in Massachusetts

and other NE states?


http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2009/05/10/a_semiautomatic_sir_and_pass_the_ammo/


http://www.examiner.com/x-2398-Boston-Top-News-Examiner~y2009m5d10-Gun-sales-up-gun-owners-hoarding-ammunition


http://www.projo.com/news/content/BZ_GUN_SALES_UP_15_04-15-09_B9DTTJS_v122.28ed6df.html

http://media.www.tnhonline.com/media/storage/paper674/news/2009/05/01/News/Purchase.Of.Firearms.In.New.Hampshire.Increases.In.Response.To.Policies.Of.Obama-3733798.shtml

http://www.seacoastonline.com/articles/20090315-NEWS-903150345

[friendly_iconoclast]

108. That's unpossible! Obviously the NRA has paid the media to plant these articles.

Seriously, this just goes to show:

"The problem isn't what you don't know, it's what you *think* you know that isn't so"

Quite a lot of people who don't like guns actively refuse to educate themselves about them.

I say to them:
C'mon people, you won't be brainwashed into buying an MP5 by learning hard facts about what you're
talking about.

Others just engage in 'heavenly deception'. For the 'greater good', of course...

[spin]

104. In three months the USA bought enough firearms...

to outfit the armies of India and China.

Law abiding US citizens bought on average 3,177,256 guns every 3 months in 2008.
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/04/22/usa-buys-enough-guns-in-3-months-to-outfit-the-entire-chinese-and-indian-army/

update on story:

http://www.ammoland.com/2009/04/27/update-usa-buys-enough-guns-in-3-months-to-outfit-the-entire-chinese-and-indian-army/

Dinosaurs my ass. Gun owners are FAR from extinct.

[walkaway]

42. still no answer from the good doctor.

Who is testing and training you and your gun friends? No one. We will never know if one of your buddies is a drunk or hates his family enough to blow them away until it happens. And some innocent police officer gets blown away trying to save them.

I believe that the Police should not be required to answer call at homes where there are know guns. If these death toy make you feel safe then take care of yourself.

[doctor jazz]

59. You have to be shitting me...no former cop would ever refer to guns as "death toys"

that silly description can only come from someone who knows less than nothing about them. Are you unaware of the Supreme Court decisions (and the realities that prompted them) that clearly say police are not expected or required to protect you?

[HALO141]

83. Who's monitoring these policemen of yours?!?!

These are just the top FEW google results for "police officer arrested"

Child Pornography: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/04/09/2539549.htm

Brinks Holdup: http://www.nytimes.com/1993/11/13/nyregion/priest-and-ex-policeman-arrested-in-7-million-brink-s-car-holdup.html

Sexual Assault of a Minor: http://www.wbaltv.com/news/19254603/detail.html

Child Rape: http://www.king5.com/localnews/stories/NW_042409WAB-forks-officer-child-rape-TP.108e0b1b9.html?rss

Drug Trafficking: http://tech.mit.edu/V129/N13/damelio_police_arrest.html

Robbery: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/081308dnmetdpdarrest.3dd88298.html

DUI: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/25/leon-young-police-officer_n_160757.html

Another DUI: http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/19261886/detail.html#-

And a third DUI (I sense a trend): http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=706&sid=1635690

Domestic Abuse: http://www.detnews.com/article/20090504/METRO/905040405/1409/METRO


Furthermore, out of 240,000 fully automatic weapons in the ATF registry the ONLY incidence I've found of a crime being committed with a legally owned machine gun was committed by a police officer. (Supposedly there is a second but I haven't been able to nail down a source.) The law enforcement profession is notorious for it's high incidence of alcohol/drug/spousal abuse. Yet you hold these individuals up as the only ones that can be trusted with firearms.


As an aside... One could cause far more personal damage and infinitely more property damage with a couple gallons of gas than one can with a firearm.

[konnichi wa]

87. What are 'know guns'?

Never heard of that kind.

[Callisto32]

90. You have just suggested that gun owners not be offered equal protection of the law.

That is a VERY dangerous position to take. Doing that would require then that ANY other group that can be identified as "dangerous" not have police protection either. It's sometimes known as "similar interests will be treated similarly" in law. Under this rule, the spouse of a known...lets say crack dealer..would not be allowed police protection at their home. If I were you, I would reconsider, and start listening to the words I am thinking/saying/typing and considering the implications of those words before posting them out on the internet for all to read. You have, at least to some portion of the readers, totally destroyed any credibility you once had.

[spin]

103. The range I used to shoot at was an indoor police range...

but was open to civilian membership.

The police qualified on nights when the range wasn't open to civilians.

The police instructor managed to accidentally shoot a TV and a soda machine in the lobby on two separate occasions. He said he was unloading his weapon. One officer put a hole in the carpet when he was holstering his weapon. Note: there was a bullet trap in the lobby for safely unloading a weapon.

The civilian shooters had a better safety record than the cops.

[spin]

24. My child might be dead if not for a firearm...

and the training I gave her on how to use it.

She stopped an intruder who was forcing the sliding glass door of our home open by pointing a large caliber revolver at him.

Note: the burglar alarm was sounding and there was a 60 lb Black Lab in the house.

It's quite possible that without that firearm, I wouldn't have two great grandchildren to teach gun safety today.

[walkaway]

36. cold comfort to the parents and family members of children

who died of gun violence. Maybe you should get her a baseball bat instead. Isn't that another one of those "pro gun" mythologies. Bats are deadlier than guns!

[spin]

67. If she would not have had the firearm and the training...

she might have been a statistic rather than an anecdote.

At the time she was 17 years old and weighed less than 100 lbs.

But I will agree that her story is "cold comfort" to the parents of children who were killed by gun violence. I can easily imagine how I would have felt if she had been raped or murdered by the intruder. Devastated would be a understatement as she was my only child and means the world to me.

Fortunately, I taught her how to handle a revolver when she was very young. I started taking her to the range when she was only nine years old. The big Smith and Wesson.45 acp target revolver was and is her favorite firearm. She loved standing on the range and shooting the big N-frame revolver (the same size Dirty Harry's .44 mag.) because all the other shooters would stop and watch her. And she was and is very proficient with it.

But I can't take all the credit for how she acted that night. She also had extensive judo training with one of the best instructors in the country. This training and the experience of actual tournament competition gave her a lot of confidence that probably help to deter the attacker. I had told her to NEVER shoot a person unless he was entirely inside the house. Since he was only half way through the door, she didn't fire her weapon. All's well that ends well and I can only hope that he learned a valuable lesson.

After the incident, adrenaline did effect her. When the police arrived at the front door she told them that she had the revolver in her hand and was unable to release it. They told her to point it at the floor with her finger off the trigger. One officer had to gently pry her fingers off the weapon.

If the intruder had also been armed with a firearm, the story might have had a more tragic ending. Someone would have been shot. Even if she would have won the confrontation, the psychological effects of shooting or killing another human are very serious.

Many times very tragic incidents happen that involve firearms and many times firearms are used to prevent criminal attack. I'm very fortunate that the incident my daughter was involved in was an example of the correct defensive use of a firearm. It's hard to say how many such incidents occur as the tragic incidents receive much more publicity and the positive incidents are rarely reported or become statistics unless someone is shot.

You have every right to have your viewpoint although I, of course, have a far different view of firearms based on my personal experience. There is absolutely no question that we live in a violent society and the criminal misuse of firearms as well as the all too frequent misuse of firearms by the extremely mentally ill members of our society are the problem.

By tweaking the current laws and by enforcing the existing laws we can help to reduce firearm related violence. Attempting to eliminate all firearms is not a intelligent choice as all that would result would be more violence by the criminal element who would be empowered. The problem is far deeper than mere gun control can ever address. We need to address poverty, education, mental health issues and equal opportunity to really make headway in solving the violence problem that haunts our country. This is a very expensive and long term solution but "feel good" laws have had little effect on the problem. We also face a very significant problem with criminal drug gangs. First we need to treat gang members as terrorists (which they are). And we should also consider the legalization of some drugs to reduce the profit motive of drug dealing.

I showed my daughter your post and she insisted that I tell you that her response was, "Fuck you!!!". I promised her that I would include her comment but I would like to include my opinion that if you were in her position and had experienced what she did that night, you might well say the same thing.

[paulsby]

102. statistically speaking

bodies of water (to include bathtubs) are more dangerous to kids than guns.

significantly so. don't have any bathtubs in your house, don't live near a body of water, and don't take your kids to the beach or pool, and you have done more to prevent potential death than you could ever do by banning all handguns, even from the hands of criminals (which is impossible to do).

[rrneck]

28. Our culture appears to be trending

the other way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_of_Columbia_v._Heller

[rl6214]

41. I can tell you I am more highly trained

than most "trained professionals" in the use of firearms. In fact most "trained professionals" only shoot their firearms once or twice a year when they have to qualify. I shoot mine every week.


"More people are choosing to keep their kids away from gun owners who aren't trained professionals."

[SteveM]

78. The usual prohibitionist refrain: "Tis only a shower"...

Actually, your prohibitionist stand is quite predictable, given the failing gun-control movement. You are grinding your teeth down and digging your trench deeper in preparation for ever more conflict; this is what happens when prohibitionists see failure looming.

Here is some good stuff for you: the reason you and many of your gun-control friends post so stalwart prohibitionist policies about gun owners is because you know that DU's "Forum: Guns" is the biggest single threat to the remnants of gun control within the Democratic Party. Shattered in D.C., laughing stocks in Chicago, just plain weird in S.F.; the main media (long the strongest ally of the gun-control lobby) sinking faster than the Lusitania; even gun-control politicians forced to tremble in savage anger and hatred but remaining silent in the face of certain Party defeats -- gun controllers must look to the nearest threat. And that is progressive activists who are pushing for pro-Second Amendment measures and the expunging of anti-Second Amendment policies within the Democratic Party. You are in the right place if you think it is "only going to get worse."

BTW, several people over the last year have asked me about acquisition and use of firearms, some for their kids. They are taking responsible steps to protect their kids: knowing how to safely handle and use firearms is the best protection you can provide for children. Hiding them from a "threat" only promotes prurient interest.

[Callisto32]

89. Please do not propose false dichotomies.

Suggesting that one cannot be religious and a gun owner without giving up reason and intellect is a false dichotomy, they are not mutually exclusive.

Also, if by trained professionals you mean "state trained professionals" you may be surprised to see just how well trained they are in weapons protocol. yes, there are elite groups that can shoot circles around most anybody while maintaining safe handling and control, but they are few and far between. The amount of weapons training and practice had by most police is pretty laughable. I have read articles by police firearms instructors lamenting the poor level of proficiency by the average officer, especially when it comes to the shotgun issued by many departments. I have personal experience with several "experience" military men handling firearms in ways that made me very uncomfortable and culminated with me leaving the area.

Some of us are highly educated, religious, gun owners. We are also peaceful people of whom you have no reason for fear, or for keeping your children away. My personal foundational rule is "never initiate any kind of force against anyone for any reason." I am sure that I am not the only one.

[paulsby]

101. i am a police firearms instructor

and this is true. many cops shoot their gun once or twice a year (qualifications) and that's it.

they are competent, at best.

believe it that many cops are not "gun lovers" to use the term of the anti-gunners. they carry one as part of the job but have next to no interest in collecting them, shooting them for recreation, etc. they place no more interest in them than they place in their police radios or pepper spray. for them, guns are simply tools.

some others are quite proficient and avid IPSC etc. shooters. they are a distinct minority.

[Retired AF Dem]

92. The world is not a safe place

Hopefully the chidren in your family arent killed in a car accident enroute to a non gun owning house. Hopefully they are not abducted, raped, and beaten to death and buried in a shallow grave while they are walking to a nice safe non gun household. I tend to marginalize idiots, but they are many and I'm few.

[tortoise1956]

97. you're kidding, right?

You don't allow your children to even VISIT homes with guns? Haven't you learned that the forbidden fruit is the most enticing?
My father made sure that we children understood from a very young age that guns were not toys, but tools. He demystified them, at the same time teaching us how to properly utilize them.
I don't hunt, haven't for at least 30 years-the momentary thrill of the kill never quite made up for the guilt I felt afterwards. However, I still enjoy target shooting, seeing how accurately I can shoot. Kinda like I play golf as often as I can to try to become better at the stupid game.

Here's a suggestion - unless you really think that your children will never ever come in contact with a weapon, teach them what they are in objective terms-another tool. Explaining something doesn't mean you support its use, but it just might svae their lives some day.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. Ok all, tell me if this is paranoid or not, and give your reasoning

This is strictly my opinion, so it may be worth exactly what you paid for it...

1. Self-disarmament by the Left/Democrats/Progressives is not only ahistorical but possibly
suicidal in light of the recent rise of what can only be called the Pinochetist Right in the
US (you know, the folks openly talking about taking up arms against the government
'cause Obama's gonna get them if they don't).

2. If even 1% of the millions of gun owners in this country decide not to go along with
disarmament, they could run a terrorist campaign that would make the Red Army Faction,
the Gray Wolves, and the Provisional IRA look like so many 'firms' of football hooligans.

[Buck Laser]

26. What it is is bullshit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

35. Got something substantial to add, or just sticking to invective?

I gotta hand it to you, Buck. You're really helping me illustrate my arguments here.

Many thanks!

[Buck Laser]

43. Most of us don't want "self disarmament"...

We just don't want to walk down streets full of people packing guns. For most of the twentieth century, pretty reasonable gun regulation existed. In most larger cities, people had to go to great lengths to get handgun permits. And I've been a gun owner myself since I was twelve years old. Your scenario sounds hyperbolic.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. Hyperbolic? Perhaps...

Some of the stuff we've been hearing from the RW since President Obama got elected would not be out of place in late Weimar Germany.

And if 1% of gun owners decide not to play nice with others, this country would have problems
like that seen in the border cities of Northern Mexico.

I would point out that the violent crime rate has been going down at the same time as restrictions
on concealed handgun carry have been reduced or eliminated.

[konnichi wa]

86. If you really live in Austin, you walk down the street full of "people packing guns"

every time you walk down the street. I guess that explains why you get shot several times a month.
:eyes:

[hack89]

96. Gun ownership is up yet violent crime is falling

the number of people with concealed carry has increased tremendously in the past decade and, once again, violent crime rates have fallen.

So what rational reason do you have to believe that more people "packing guns" makes you more unsafe when the evidence actually shows the opposite?

[Mercracer]

111. Your Premise lacks evidence to support it.

There simply is no evidence to support your irrational fear of walking down the street with armed reasonable rational responsible adults. There are only 2 states which do not issue CCW permits to their residents. Most states are "shall issur" states. Unless there is a legal reason that someone can not possess a firearm through their crimes or mental competency adjudication they must be issued a permit.
There is simply no evidence of "Wild West" shootouts, "Mexican Standoffs", or any significant number of innocent deaths. There are already too many unreasonable gun control laws on the books. There are laws prohibiting children from accessing firearms yet children and young adults shoot themselves and each other. Adults legally arming themselves are not a source of crime nor of causing innocent deaths while defending themselves.
If there is no evidence to support the premise that an action is dangerous to society as a whole, then there should be no law prohibiting this action. Fuzzy feel good legislation being proposed by the Brady Campaign will not save lives. The 1994-2004 offensive looking gun ban did nothing to make people more save and only accomplished the infringement on the rights of reasonable rational responsible mature adults.

[Davis_X_Machina]

29. Be careful...

...some day there'll be a thread about a shooting by a hemp-growing Palestinian gunman who's a Catholic, and poof! -- DU goes up in a puff of smoke, never to rise again

[corruptmewithpower]

30. The way gun grabbers treat gunowners now is nothing compared to

their true long term goal.

History makes very clear, the long term result of gun control is DEMOCIDE.

Those anti-gun extremists really just want their neighbors defenseless so they can be exterminated.

Death by Gun Control


http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

:evilfrown:

[walkaway]

34. You sound like the perfect person

to own a gun.

And live far away from me!

[corruptmewithpower]

39. Too bad the KKK and Hitler weren't so moderate as you, so you say.

When they were the prime movers on gun control for their societies, they didn't want the Negros or Jews to live at all.

[Buck Laser]

46. My God, you guys are paranoid...

Once again, I'm NOT against people owning and using guns: I just want reasonable restrictions on their use. Though I don't want to have a handgun in my house for self defense (I have young grandchildren), it's OK with me if other people want to have them. I just think too many people obsess about them. I'm not impressed by the same tired old arguments.

Furthermore, I've had people actually say they hope I'm the victim of violence to "teach me." THAT'S WHAT IS JUST BULLSHIT!!!"

[corruptmewithpower]

50. You have no idea how many unarmed peoples have been murdered

because of gun control laws.

WAR ISN'T
THIS CENTURY'S
BIGGEST KILLER

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/WSJ.ART.HTM

[Buck Laser]

53. Neither do you, I'll wager. Where do you get your figures? NRA?

[corruptmewithpower]

57. You'll find various estimates and references here:

Deaths by Mass Unpleasantness:
Estimated Totals for the Entire 20th Century

http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat8.htm#Smoking

[rrneck]

61. "I just want reasonable restrictions on their use"

Sounds good. What'd you have in mind?

[paulsby]

100. obsession

in the cause of civil liberty is no vice (to paraphrase).

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. Yeah, we're just making up all that hatred coming from RW media

There is definitely a substantial chunk of the Right who wouldn't mind seeing
a Pinochet type coming to power. And would be happy to see the 'undesirables'
disappear. Feel free to pretend they don't exist.

Me, I'm with the Clash:

When they kick in your front door,
How you gonna come?
With your hands in the air,
Or on the trigger of a gun?

"The Guns of Brixton"

[Buck Laser]

47. You have a right to feel that way.

Please allow me the right to believe that you're wrong. I don't want to take your guns. I just want you to stop bloviating about them.

[doctor jazz]

60. Uh, how exactly does 'bloviating' adversely affect you?

That is, I must admit, a first for me.
:eyes:

[Furyataurus]

52. All I want is

to get rid of the 86 and 89 ban, get rid of having a CLEO having to sign off on Title 3 items. I know you can go the Trust/corporation route but this would be easier. Keep NICS, keep having to go through ATF for title 3 items and maybe see if they can reduce the amount of paper work and the amount of time it takes to get the tax stamp back. IMO, it shouldn't take more than 3 weeks for the ATF/FBI to do a background investigation.

[scentopine]

62. another perspective

Gun lovers love guns. No reason will change this. Like religion, their beliefs are what they are regardless of fact. Some gun lovers live in the intersection of fact and belief offering stories of homeowners shooting intruders, and certainly the shop owner in a horrible section of the city where guns are freely available may need a weapon close at hand. The most civil gun lovers carefully avoid any discussion of facts outside that narrow space and stick to these rare exceptions to make their case for widespread availability of guns. There are also millions of Americans who believe the earth was created 6,000 years ago and dinosaurs are made up by Disney. In either debate, guns or religion, facts are an unwelcome intrusion of faith.

I can recall my neighbor who after getting a speeding ticket was so angry he threatened to go shoot the cop and he proceeded to go on about liberty and federalism and his gun collection. I had a boss who had a terrible temper, obvious mental problems, had an affair with his married assistant and when I went to move some equipment dumped out his duffel bag stuffed full of bullets (kept in his office) from all sorts of guns. In the city I could hear gunfire just about once a month or so, kids shooting up the place.

Most of the hard core gun lovers tend to go on and on about federalism and the constitutional party, etc. And the NRA has turned into an anti-tax militia in waiting - legions of angry white "conservative patriots" each a paranoid army of one, ready to bear arms as soon as Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann give them marching orders. Another gun camp is stock piling guns in case the NRA militia decides to act out.

Guns and gun deaths tell you about our nations values. It shows we are a culture of violence, in fact we idolize it - in video games, movies, wars, etc. The USA loves watching people getting shot and killed by guns - maybe so many are suffering that they love to see others suffer. Whatever the reason, guns are here to stay and the violence will continue. That's because collectively as a nation we are very comfortable with guns and gun violence as an easy solution to complex problems. Some believe good problem solving skills come from education, experience, empathy, good parenting, etc. Other people think that's just nonsense and go buy a gun.

Here are some facts- the sources are below.

Children and Gun Violence

* America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
* In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
* The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)

From
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/statistics.htm#children

Most of the data is posted here
http://www.childrensdefense.org/publications-search/search.jsp?folderID=13415636&includeSubfolders=true&query=gun+death&submit=Submit

CDC mortality rates are here - firearm deaths can be selected as a filter.

http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html

[corruptmewithpower]

64. Does the long term safety of the children and their descendants figure in

your decision making?

Death by Gun Control


http://www.jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm

[scentopine]

65. with all due respect

The correlation between gun control and the onset of a totalitarian/fascist state is probably the weakest of much much stronger pre-existing indications which include -

1. Irrational nationalism and xenophobia.

2. Territories where power was wielded exclusively by family, emperors, dynasties, monarchies, religious/tribal chieftains and other systems that had no framework for changing political power other than violence or open warfare.

2. No recognition of inalienable human rights. These rights predate the invention of the gun.

3. No free press. Government sponsored/supported news organizations.

4. Dysfunctional and corrupt legal systems.

5. Concentration of wealth among a small number of industrial oligarchs.

6. Military loyalty to the ruler and ruling "party" rather than the nation as a whole.

And of course we can point to very civil societies where gun is far stronger than here in the USA and show that these nations are stable and safe and whose populations are productive, inventive and for the most part happy and not living in constant fear.

[scentopine]

66. correction

And of course we can point to very civil societies where gun *control* is far stronger...

apologies...

[corruptmewithpower]

68. Over two hundred million defenseless people were murdered by their

own governments in the twentieth century. How many kids will you save by endangering everyone with the same gun control mentality in the twenty first.


"Power kills, absolute Power kills absolutely. This new Power Principle is the message emerging from my previous work on the causes of war1 and this book on genocide and government mass murder--what I call democide--in this century. The more power a government has, the more it can act arbitrarily according to the whims and desires of the elite, the more it will make war on others and murder its foreign and domestic subjects. The more constrained the power of governments, the more it is diffused, checked and balanced, the less it will aggress on others and commit democide."

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.CHAP1.HTM

[raimius]

91. No wonder our discussions aren't fruitful

"...facts are an unwelcome intrusion of faith..."
"NRA has turned into an anti-tax militia in waiting - legions of angry white "conservative patriots" each a paranoid army of one, ready to bear arms as soon as Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann give them marching orders."
"Some believe good problem solving skills come from education, experience, empathy, good parenting, etc. Other people think that's just nonsense and go buy a gun."

Really?

You expect anyone who supports the right to keep and bear arms to engage in a civil discussion after that? You have just stereotyped gun owners as illogical, paranoid, conservative idiots who have no problem solving skills, do not value education, good parenting, empathy, etc.
Do you expect the people to whom you apply that stereotype to enter a discussion in a civil manner, willing to listen to all your reasonable arguments, and find a common ground? I really don't see that happening immediately after you imply all those things about us.

Some who advocate more restrictive laws complain that those who do not hold the same opinions are too angry, defensive, or fearful (or lack large reproductive organs...huh?).

Do you not understand why those who support the right to keep and bear arms get defensive? It's in your opening salvo! You aren't engaging in a civil debate. You are attacking the character of those across the ideological divide. Why? Are we THAT different from you? Do you feel the need to demonize and stereotype for the sake of "winning?" I'm interested in preserving my right to choose how I conduct my hobby and what I can defend myself with, why are you in this discussion?

[paulsby]

99. another canard

"gun lovers"

i'm not a gun lover. i am a lover of civil rights, to include the 2nd amendment

i am also not an abortion lover, but i support the right to choose

i am not a criminal lover (i'm a cop fwiw) but i support the right of criminals (suspected and convicted) to have civil rights (due process, right against unreasonable search and seizure, etc.)

this is not about loving guns. it's about loving civil rights.

[FLAprogressive]

63. They're preachy evangelists

[scentopine]

69. some sympathy for the devil

With each horrific outburst of random gun violence, legions of volunteers are mobilized to transform these events into evidence supporting the need for more guns and more powerful guns. It must be a fatiguing enterprise from an intellectual and physical perspective. With every tragedy its a constant refrain from these loyal soldiers, "if only everyone in the immigration center had a gun, if only everyone in the church had a gun, if only everyone at work had a gun, if only everyone at school had a gun, more guns = less violence...".

It is definitely working as here in Texas as you wouldn't know there is any other legislative priority - its all guns all the time. Schools and bars are the next legislative target for gun carrying. Sure Texas board of Ed doesn't believe in dinosaurs and neither does the Governor or ex-Governor and former president, but they all believe in guns.

Congratulations on beating liberals, progressives, and even many conservatives on this issue. You are definitely winning in your quest to keep America armed and dangerous. But, man, I feel for you brothers, you must be exhausted. So don't forget to take a rest, you've all been so busy lately. Don't forget the family - maybe take a break and go to a park or to the beach. And leave the gun locked up in the safe, just this one time. Everyone needs to get away form it all occasionally. I promise you won't need to shoot anyone. And no video first person shooter video games (not even as a tail gunner).

And Texas leg- how about y'all taking a break from guns too? Guns at work, in schools, in bars - whew, you accomplished so much! But there's lots of other things going on - a dead economy (no pun intended), legions of unemployed, infrastructure crumbling, jobs disappearing to India, etc. Its not good to be so obsessed with guns. Celebrate your success and take a well earned break and then please take a look at these other things.

[SecularNATION]

77. Anti Gun Fundamentalists

From what I've seen, the average anti-gun Democrat is like a fundamentalist creationist. They know about as much about guns as creationists know about evolution, which is next to nothing. Of course, that doesn't keep them from constantly wailing about how evil guns are and how the evil "gun nuts" are a scourge upon the nation. In both cases, these people are fueled by emotion, ignorance, and a sense of moral superiority.

[friendly_iconoclast]

93. FOLLOW UP: Some more examples from early May

All from the Gungeon, sadly:

The right to express our displeasure with gun fetishists'. It's pathetic and a bit obscene shoving your iron dicks in our faces.


I know that just really gripes some of you gun fetishers, but that's how I (and many other people) feel.

They should have phrased it, "Gun-gasm Gang Afraid 10,000 Rounds Not Enough -- Stocking Up"


Cowardly Americans agraid of their own shadows...

[paulsby]

98. perfect example

every post that engages in one of the three canards (one of which is penis/gun) is a PERFECT example of the very point of the OP.

[friendly_iconoclast]

107. Son of FOLLOW UP, or: Yet another fresh example...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=222768&mesg_id=222775

Honestly I can't tell between one political stripe of gun nut and another. As far as I can tell they're all part of a fetish subculture that basically hope for a legal excuse to murder someone.

Geez, go ahead and make my point for me, why dontcha?

As long as stuff like this keeps getting posted, I'll keep reposting it here

[anonymous171]

109. The "War on Guns" is the Left's "War on Drugs" nt