Do you believe that any attempt by Obama to control guns will cause us to lose our majority?

[NightWatcher]

Poll question: Do you believe that any attempt by Obama to control guns will cause us to lose our majority?

Dems have been portrayed by the NRA, repukes, right wing radio and tv wack jobs, et cetera, as "gun grabbers". Even the coward who put on body armour before luring the police to their deaths believed that Obama was going to come for his guns.

My fear is that if Obama or the Democrats in Congress even MENTION any type of responsible gun control legislation, that the reich-wing noise machine will have all the ammo that they need to get mobilized for 2010 and 2012. Hell, even Newt- the same Newt Gingrich who stole the majority from the Democrats under Clinton's first term, is getting ready for another onslaught against us.

Here's the question:

Is it worth it for Obama and the Democrats to attempt to control firearms at the risk of losing the majority after being perceived as "gun grabbers"? Would gun control cause us to lose our majority?

I think that we need the Democrats to retain control of the WH and Congress and while the gun crimes are horrible, there are bigger problems. Do you think that if Al Gore won in 2000, we would have lost 4500 American soldier's lives in Iraq?



*Please keep this in GD, as few ever venture into the Gungeon. This is not about guns, but a discussion of tactics and maintaining our majority*

[Dennis Donovan]

1. Despite what the paranoid freaks at the NRA think, this country is READY...

...for SANE gun laws!

[quiller4]

43. We already have sane gun laws. Now we need real enforcement.

People who should not pass instant check do while others that should be granted purchase are denied because data bases are incomplete and hardware and software are so badly out of date. Enforcement isn't free and has been underfunded for years.

[AlinPA]

46. The guy in Pittsburgh is not mentally ill. There is no way to prevent him getting a gun.

all he needed to do was to go to a "gun bash". There are lots of them around Pittsburgh and lots of activity in the parking lots of those events. Laws don't work. Anyone can get guns with no trouble.

[JVS]

47. Nothing to prevent him from getting a gun except an extensive criminal record and a dis discharge

According to Mr. Perkovic, Mr. Poplawski tossed a lunch tray at a drill instructor.

snip

Court records show that on Sept. 14, 2005, Mr. Poplawski attacked Miss Gladish outside 1016 Fairfield St., the same address at which he would later be accused of killing the three police officers.

Miss Gladish said she had gone to Mr. Poplawski's house "and he began to argue with me and call me names. When I argued back he grabbed me by my hair and said, 'Do you think I'm going to let you talk to me like that? I don't let anyone talk to me like that."'

He threatened to kill her, the records show. In a form asking Miss Gladish to list all weapons Mr. Poplawski had used, she listed "gun that the defendant says is buried in the park near his house."

Less than a month later, police sought Mr. Poplawski for violating a protection-from-abuse order after he went to Miss Gladish's workplace, a King's Restaurant, and asked her to marry him. He then moved to the West Palm Beach, Fla., area. Mr. Perkovic said he worked there as a glazier for two years.

Two years later, back in Pittsburgh, Mr. Poplawski wrote on MySpace of the episode: "She's lucky I didn't kill that broad myself. Hahaha."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

[AlinPA]

50. His background would be a factor if he went to a place where they actually check

it. Guns are so accessible anywhere that those checks and laws are useless.

[rl6214]

59. Thats just bullshit

You are spewing out the new media talking points.

Have you ever purchased a gun? Do you really know what the process entails?

[L0oniX]

53. In Florida you can't pass a background check for a gun if you've been dishonorably discharged.

[Statistical]

72. Not all discharges are dishonorable.

There are many types of discharges:
Honorable
General
Other than Honorable
Dishonorable
Entry Level Seperation
Order of Release from the Custody and Control of the Military Services


The only one that is automatically considered a felony is Dishonrable.

A recuit in basic training almost NEVER (even for hitting a DSG) gets a Dishonorable.

Most likely they just gave him an Entry Level Sep = military life & you don't fit together.

If they wanted to make it hard for him maybe an OTH.
Unless he had a General Court Martial and was imposed a sentance of >1 yr an OTH can't be a felony.

[SteveM]

67. YOU may be ready for more gun laws, but the country ain't (nt)

[JVS]

2. If I had to pick between Gay Rights, Gun Control, Unions, and Universal Healthcare...

for one issue to get the shaft on (and lets be honest, we're likely to get the shaft on all of these), Gun Control goes on the chopping block first. There is only so much political capital and Gun Control is not worth sacrificing any of those issues over.

[NightWatcher]

6. I would so much rather risk it for Universal Healthcare or Civil Rights

[spoony]

9. I think we could get some traction on Universal Healthcare

by emphasising the role a lack of accessible mental healthcare plays in these tragedies. We'd be attacking the same problem a different way and it'd probably be more effective than a AWB-style law.

[HopeOverFear]

21. excellent point n/m

[immoderate]

26. Unfortunately, ANY move we make on gun control...

will be amplified and demagogued by the right. And it will change little as far as violent crime goes.

--imm

[Joe Steel]

65. Abandon Gay Rights and Choice

If I had to pick between Gay Rights, Gun Control, Unions, and Universal Healthcare...

for one issue to get the shaft on (and lets be honest, we're likely to get the shaft on all of these), Gun Control goes on the chopping block first. There is only so much political capital and Gun Control is not worth sacrificing any of those issues over.

Abandoning gay rights and choice in favor of gun control could bring back a number of voters who now vote Republican.

[hendo]

73. and what would our new slogan be?

"We are just like republicans, only we want to take your guns"?

[spoony]

3. I don't think it's necessarily so, depends on the specifics

RWers are ALWAYS going to fear Dems taking their guns, and we can't help people like that. But I think if Obama were to endorse better background checks (that is, with states compelled to share mental health committment records, iirc this would've made it harder for the VT shooter to get guns) people in general would be behind him.

[jefflrrp]

64. as someone who worries about more "feel-good" legislation . . .

on firearms always proposed by some Dems (Feinstein and the ilk), I would very much suport better background checks. And maybe an opening of the NCIS system to common sellers at gunshows. And Im very sure the NRA would support that too.

[wyldwolf]

4. it's possible. It was a contributor in 1994

[BlooInBloo]

5. Concern noted.

[rrneck]

7. "responsible gun control legislation"

What'd you have in mind?

[janx]

8. I've never heard Obama say anything about this.

It's an idea ginned up primarily by the NRA and RW talk show hosts.

[NightWatcher]

11. Obama never has said anything about it. He cant

if he even mentions "guns" the reich wing- NRA'ers would lose their shit and mobilize. This is the point of my OP

[polichick]

From whitehouse.gov...

"Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy/

[Tim01]

20. It is well documented and still on his website.

If you are shown the the idea that Obama wants to ban some/most guns is HIS idea, as he has chosen to make it public, and not something dreamed up by the NRA, would you believe it then?
If Obama says he wants to bring back the AWB and make it permanent, would you believe it is not some conspiracy theory against him?

[janx]

24. That's a far cry from the "gun grabbing" rhetoric that

is regularly mailed to gun owners by the NRA.

[Tim01]

51. He says he wants to make a whole bunch illegal to buy.

There is a very long list of rifles and ammo he says he wants it make illegal for civilians to buy. Some shotguns too. And restrictions on magazines for semi-auto pistols. He wants to make the most popular rifles in America illegal to buy. That's what he says.
Is that what you understand him to say? Not so far from what the NRA says.

[gorfle]

56. No, it is not.

As a member of the NRA, I receive their monthly publications.

Fear of bans is precisely what is published, and given his published agenda, there is no reason not to take him at his word.

[X_Digger]

57. Agreed- you can argue..

.. if he is willing to spend the political capital, or whether or not the house would pass it, or whether or not the senate would, or whether or not he would actually sign it, or whether or not the SCOTUS would throw it out..

but arguing that he doesn't want a ban in spite of the statement to the contrary on whitehouse.gov is just plain silly.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. Do you have a link to some of those mailings?

[janx]

61. No, but I can assure you that my daughter received

a mailing about ten years ago that explicitly stated Clinton would try to take her gun away. The NRA of today is not what it was when I was a kid, when the NRA was about gun safety and education as opposed to politics.

I have lived with firearms and without them, but one thing I can tell you now is that I have ZERO interest in the NRA.

[corruptmewithpower]

10. Screw the politics, gun grabbing is immoral. It enables genocide.

[depakid]

68. What a bizarre thing to say!

Just when I think this forum can't get any more DELUSIONAL.

:crazy:

[glinda]

12. Read somewhere recently that the NRA member numbers are actually pretty small

and I would think that if more controls were put into place and then covered publicly as to why and how this does not "hurt" many of the regular gun users, then should be ok. IT WILL NOT be ok if it doesn't get the publicity and explaining and is taken over and distorted by the crazy Republicans.

[AZ Criminal JD]

49. What do you call "pretty small"?

They have four million members. How many organizations out there have that many?

[SteveM]

69. Some four million members, I believe. About publicity...

You can propose whatever you want and explain why it does not 'hurt' many of the regular gun users, but it will do little good. Gun-control organizations have relied heavily on mainstream media for years to push their agenda -- what more can you expect of publicity -- and these organizations have by-and-large failed. Even the (then) Knight-Ridder chain, NY Times, LA Times, Christian Science Monitor, AP, CBS, Washington Post (the virtual agitprop-of-record for gun prohibition), and many other media have run what can only be described as campaigns, the "fix" was never in. The result: a great expansion of the right to keep and bear arms, esp. regarding concealed-carry, and the smack down of the Democratic Party.

Gun-control is really culture war wherein the operative policy is prohibition. That is a combination for failure.

NOTE: according to historians Kennett and Anderson in Kates & Kleck's THE GREAT AMERICAN GUN DEBATE (1997), "three quarters of the nation's newspapers, and most of the periodical press" support gun control. Specifically, the historians cite 77 consecutive days of pro-gun-control editorials in the Washington Post.

[polichick]

13. Heck no - what a line of bull those gun clingers keep trying to sell...

Most civilized people would be grateful for a little sanity on the subject ~ just as most civilized people would be grateful for a little sanity on the subject of marijuana legalization. It's crazy to keep letting right-wing crazies hold us hostage on this culture war stuff,

[X_Digger]

55. Can you smell the irony?

"Let's ban this, but unban this other thing.."

(I say unban both.)

[hendo]

74. yeah, lets unban marijuana

pot smokers are funding crime rings now.

[AlinPA]

14. If the right wing and gun nuts keep shooting up this country like the Pittsburgh

guy did, there may be public outcry against the so called "defenders" of the second amendment as this guy was. That action makes them look downright crazy. It won't fly in this country, it's too extreme. He thought he was a hero of the "defenders" but it's not playing that way here in the Pittsburgh area.

[napi21]

15. I don't want to wound like I'm on the NRA side, because I'm not!

I think they've turned into a bunch of raving idiots. Bit I do think we're trying to attack the wrong problem. There are so many guns out there alreadym trying to curb their sales now wouldn't do much. From what I remember of the mass killings in the recent years, the perps were all mentally disturbed. Something had pushed them over the top. A job loss, others picking on them, even hatered of some other group of people. Wouldn't it be better if we worked to help people who have mental problems?

[AlinPA]

16. The guy in Pittsburgh was not mentally ill. He was acting out his right wing agenda.

[napi21]

19. Where did you hear that? Sorry, all I've hears so far didn't give

a reason why they thought he was shooting. The only link to mental illness I did hear was that the police had been called to that residence several times before, and all were domestics.

[AlinPA]

22. Read this: The son of a bitch knew exactly what he was doing. He had an agenda.

He was equipped with bulletproof gear. He ambushed the police. Mental illness my ass. Everybody I've talked with here in Pittsburgh agrees. Every time there is a big shooting its always "mental illness"- not all of them are. Especially this bastard. He left widows and kids without fathers. "Defending his 2nd amendment rights" - bullshit.
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09095/960750-53.stm

[rvablue]

32. Read a little about the backgrounds of the three cops in the NYT today.

So, so sad! :cry:

The one guy was about to get married, for god's sake.

Another one lived just four blocks away. His wife and kids probably heard the shots that killed him and they'll have to live with that nightmare for the rest of their lives. He was actually on his way home after finishing his shift and turned around to go back and help.

From the NYT account, these officers never stood a chance.

What a fucking (excuse my language) coward the shooter is. Blathering like a baby into the phone to his friend, worrying about whether he was going to die when he had just plowed down three innocent people -- and wanted to, but failed to kill a fourth.

I'm sure you've seen/heard all of this locally, but the article also said that neighbors heard the mother screaming, "What are you doing with my son??"

So even though she had been the victim of his violent rage in the past, she was still condoning and defending his behavior after he had cold-bloodedly murdered three cops in her front yard.

Unbelievable and sick.

[AlinPA]

37. I am sick of the same old crap of the gun nuts calling these people mentally ill. They know what

they are doing. That's bullshit.

[napi21]

34. I hadn't seen that. Thans for posting. I can't call it mental illness, but

trying to control gun sales isn't going to eliminate people like this. They're no different that McVeigh. Conspiracy nuts! As long as we have freedom of speech, you'll have people like this too. I don't want to give up MY freddom of speech just to try to control these nutballs!

I grew up in Pgh. and lived there 43 years. I know where Stanton Hgts is. I am somewhat surprised that there are white supremists there, or anywhere in Pgh. Yea I know there are some racists, but at least when I lived there, they weren't violent.

I staNd by my statement though. Trying to control guns isn't going to make any difference.

[AlinPA]

36. I'm not for controlling guns. I just can't see defending slime like this guy in the interests of

"the 2nd amendment". It's bullshit.

[imdjh]

63. I'm glad you said that.

An old Jewish man once said to me, "We all like to believe that those who commit crimes against us and those who hate us are mentally ill. This is how we know we are good people, because we can't bear to hate others. We don't really know how it feels."

This is why hate crimes laws make no sense to me. How can we decide what is hate and what is mental illness? Where is the line between anger and hate? All we can really know is if we are convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that a man committed a crime.

[one-eyed fat man]

71. 3 Philadelphia cop-killers

Since these guys were thieves that means they were "Redistributing Wealth" and isn't that a left wing agenda? :sarcasm:


Cain Howard rapsheet

Warner Levon rapsheet

Floyd Eric rapsheet

Catch and release let these criminals out to commit more crimes. Their decades long criminal histories prove they had no regard for the law. I don't think it matters two hoots in hell whether it's a thug inner-city gangbanger, the Symbionese Liberation Army, the Aryan Brotherhood, or some loner loser who figures blasting away will make him famous, the law won't hinder them much.

Every so-called, "common sense gun control" proposal so far is either like trying to stop drunk driving by taking the keys away from sober people or preventing rape by castrating all male babies at birth.

[TankLV]

17. Obama is the only one who HASN'T talked about this topic...

"funny" (as in "sad") isn't it...

[polichick]

18. He's addressed it on his website...

"Address Gun Violence in Cities: Obama and Biden would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment, which restricts the ability of local law enforcement to access important gun trace information, and give police officers across the nation the tools they need to solve gun crimes and fight the illegal arms trade. Obama and Biden also favor commonsense measures that respect the Second Amendment rights of gun owners, while keeping guns away from children and from criminals. They support closing the gun show loophole and making guns in this country childproof. They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

http://www.whitehouse.gov/agenda/urban_policy /

[scarletwoman]

23. There are plenty of more pressing problems to be dealt with. It would be suicidal to bring up guns

at this juncture. It would be far better to let this issue be raised by the public first. Let it be the people who demand some better gun laws and then listen to what they want. Doing anything about guns from the top down would only drive up the crazy level.

sw

[The Traveler]

25. Yes. Gun control is a losing issue for us.

First, it is constitutionally ambiguous at best. That point can (and has) been debated at length between some of our finest legals minds, with no clear resolution ... hence, the constitutionality of gun control at a federal level is at best in a gray area.

That being the case, we must bear this in mind. Largely due to our own efforts, adherence to the Constitution has become an issue of greater importance to the general public than it has been in a long time. The peeps have learned something from 8 years of Bush administration malfeasance ... the Constitution is important.

So now we press this issue, one already well exploited as a wedge issue, one which feeds into the totalitarian narrative the Conservawhacks are trying to weave out there, and push our policy into the constitutional gray zone ... can we get the gun control some people want?

Yes.

What are we willing to lose to attain that victory?

Health care reform?

Gay rights?

Economic reform?

Green energy?

Make no mistake ... one or more of those issues will be lost if we press the gun control issue, because the issue itself will successfully divide us and right now is no time for division. Apparently, about 66% of the country agrees with that proposition ... but that does not mean provocative action cannot change that figure.

I genuinely believe that. But I must disclose, in all honesty, that I am dubious about gun control. Governments should remain a little afraid of their people, and I don't see how widespread gun control contributes to that worthy objective. I am, of course, a left winger. But I am a well armed and well trained left winger, and I prefer to remain that way. I see no reason why my support for the issues cited above should require my disarmament, and I will not disarm voluntarily.

Trav

[aquart]

27. No, let the gun maniacs keep shooting our majority.

That should take care of it nicely.

[FudaFuda]

28. What is your objective? To save lives, or just to ban guns?

Be honest. Which matters to you more - preventing as many needless deaths as possible, or just taking guns away from gun owners cuz you hate them?

If your objective is to prevent needless, random, violent deaths, then work on DUI prevention. We lose about 17,000 people a year to DUI. Pres. Obama practically has control over GM now, so let's start requiring all cars be built with a breathalyzer. That will save many, many thousands more lives each year than even the complete elimination of all gun crime (as if that were possible).

Again - is your objective to improve the safety of our society and prevent the most needless deaths possible, or do you just hate guns?

[Hello_Kitty]

29. There are so many guns out there that trying to 'grab' them would be wholly unfeasable

The fact is that American culture is enamored with firearms and that toothpaste is not going back in the tube.

[slackmaster]

30. It depends partly on what you mean by "attampt to control firearms"

We do have gun control in this country already.

[Pavulon]

31. Yep, People are done with the stupid shell game that is "gun control"

the shuck and jive will fail. We all know a gun ban will not accomplish jack shit. If it did I could not still buy weed, coke, hookers, or the blueprints to a thermonuclear weapon. All are available at varying prices. All are BANNED. People buy drugs that will put them in prison for years. Someone smoking a crack rock as you speak about a new ban.

Every ban instated fails, drug war, joke, prohibition, flaming success...

Everyone knows that new gun control is a scam, look good feel good pile of dog shit.

Now what do we need to ban to stop rape. Possession does not a criminal make.

Solving the problems that cause gun violence will take some work. Start with social medicine and move forward.

Or just bullshit us back to a minority.

[Jack_DeLeon]

33. Yes gun control is a losing issue, which doesnt work, it wont stop the root problems...

Gun control doesnt work and even if it did it would be targeting the symptoms of the problem and not the root cause.

War on Drugs, mental health, and the economy are what the real problems are.

[AlinPA]

40. I'm not advocating "gun control" but calling the shooter in Pittsburgh "mentally ill" is bullshit;

he knew full well what he was doing. He put on his bulletproof vest and waited for the cops. Mentally ill my ass.

[quiller4]

44. You can be delusional and still plan ahead. n/t

[Caliman73]

60. Mental illness is not a defense. It is a possible explaination

I don't see anyone defending or excusing what this person did. It looks as if he has a history of paranoia (a symptom of mental illness), He is also prone to extreme thinking (which is a symptom of mental illness), He had a violent temper and impulse control problems, which caused his discharge from the military (Intermittent Explosive disorder?) Finally, he had a persecutory delusion that the government was planning to take his firearms (which he fed through his fixation on Right Wing propaganda) So, are you saying that this man was making a rational, sane decision to kill these police?

Look, mental illness is a clinical term but it is also a social term. When you go against the norms of society in an extreme way then you are exhibiting anti-social behaviors. If those behaviors are also dangerous to yourself or others then it can be argued that you are mentally ill. Are you still responsible for your actions? Yes. Should you be separated from society as a protection to the rest of us? Yes. He is still scum, just sick scum.

[rrneck]

62. It doesn't take any longer

or require any more planning to make a tinfoil hat than to put on a kevlar vest.

But then, you don't have to be delusional to be mentally ill either.

[Taitertots]

35. A better question is...

Will giving up on gun control cement democratic victory in 2010, 2012, 2014?

All the democrats need is to stop being anti-second amendment and the NRA will have no choice but to endorse them. That would cut the legs out from under the republicans while giving Obama and the dems much needed political capital.

[-..__...]

48. Food for thought.

If not for the strong pro-RKBA stance by a few Dem candidates (Jon Tester, Jim Webb), during the 2006 elections, we never would have won
the Senate majority.

Both Tester and Webb won by very slim margins; both were from states with a large percentage of pro-RKBA voters (point being... does anyone believe they would have won had they supported gun control?).

As it is right now... 65 Dem House members and 9 Dem Senators have signed letters that have criticized Holder for his statement regarding the AWB WRT Mexico, and/or they will not endorse further gun control legislation.

This is the direction we need and should be going in... furthering/advancing rights... not denying or restricting them.

[rucky]

38. Maybe we should do more to treat mental illness?

seems to be the common thread with these killings - just as much as the guns

[AlinPA]

41. He know what he was doing. Mentally ill my ass.

[rucky]

42. Do you think there were any points of intervention?

with any of these cases?

at any step of the way?

[AlinPA]

45. The Pittsburgh guy is a goddam cop killer who believed that someone was

going to take away his guns. He is a brainwashed rightwing gun nut, and he knew exactly what he was doing. Intervene? Who would or could? Certainly not his friend who sounds just like him. People are getting fed up with defending these bastards as being "mentally ill". Believe me, here in Pittsburgh, there is no defense for this guy.

[one-eyed fat man]

70. Lovelle Mixon

the Oakland cop killer was a "Freedom Fighter" fighting against the opressors in the Oakland PD, according to some. How is one cop killer somehow morally superior to the other? As far as I can see one was crazy delusional loser, the other was crazy criminal loser!

One had a Dishonorable Discharge and was thereby prohibited from buying a gun; the other had a criminal record of assault, murder, rape, car-jacking and parole violations and was also prohibited from owning a gun.

What both of them had in common is they apparently didn't have a moment of trepidation in acquiring guns they knew they weren't supposed to have or in using them to kill anyone who got in their way. Of all the laws they both brazenly ignored, what possible law could anyone pass they would suddenly obey?


Rally in Support for Lovelle Mixon

[Sebastian Doyle]

39. Two things will cause us to lose the majority

1) Electronic "voting" machines (and other methods of right wing fraud like Choice Point, etc.)

2) The corporate whore media.

It's time to eliminate both, as they are weapons used against the American people, as surely as an AK 47 or a nuclear missile are.

[L0oniX]

52. If Obama wants gun control he should end the fucking wars first!

Control the bombs too while yer at it!

[TexasObserver]

54. Yes! That's why he's not going to do it.

[Xenotime]

66. Taking a stand against guns would lock in the 2010 and 2012 elections.

Pugs wouldn't even stand a chance.