Stories of citizens who shoot badguys as they are killing police officers.

[Tim01]

Just a site with some stories I came across. Is some of the stories things have gone badly for the police and they are being murdered by the bad guys. Citizens with guns shoot the bad guys and save the lives of the officers.

It's a gun website, of course.
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2009/02/08/more-examples-of-armed-citizens-saving-cops-lives/


One example.

"The Morning Herald, Hagerstown, MD
Police officer Chris Haldeman entered a Chambersburg, PA gold and silver exchange to arrest a suspect in a stolen property case, but the man resisted and a struggle ensued. The 220-lb. suspect had Haldeman pinned to the ground and was choking him when storekeeper Ken Cummings pulled his pistol and shot the officer’s attacker in the leg. The man, a known felon, managed to escape, and Det. Haldeman was treated at a local hospital and released."


I thought you guys might like it.

[walkaway]

1. I'll bet more officers are killed by licensed gun owners every year. N/T

[Tim01]

2. You're wrong.

[jazzcat]

32. Wow.

Wow.

[X_Digger]

33. stop using the gungeon to pump up your post count :P

(that's what the lounge is for :P )

[fascisthunter]

3. most definitely

[pipoman]

15. The OP

has posted 22 incidents of CCW holders assisting police. The first paragraph on the page linked in the OP reads:

There is NO evidence to support the assertion that law enforcement officers are put at risk by law-abiding citizens carrying concealed firearms in their car. There are no studies, even ones with twisted statistics, that draw this conclusion. How can that be? Because there is NO record of a law enforcement officers having been injured by a CCW permit holder during a traffic stop, anywhere in the 44 CCW states.

Based on your post here, I am guessing you take issue with this statement? Any links, or supporting information, or just your biased, uninformed opinion?

[russ1943]

20. Don't believe the crap posted as fact by gun enthusiasts.

"there is NO record of a law enforcement officers having been injured by a CCW permit holder during a traffic stop, anywhere in the 44 CCW states".

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/lawyer_for_thompson_claims_sel.html


Lawyer for Thompson claims self-defense; defendant had concealed-carry permit
Posted by Karen Farkas July 14, 2008 14:04PM
Categories: Breaking News, Crime
The lawyer for Ashford Thompson, the man charged with murdering Twinsburg police officer Joshua Miktarian, said his client shot the officer in self-defense.

This is one discussed on this board,"concealed-carry holder shoots cop 4 times in head,claims self defense" including posts by this poster who now states "there is NO record of a law enforcement officers having been injured by a CCW permit holder during a traffic stop, anywhere in the 44 CCW states"
I guess an outright killing can be considered different from an officer being injured, if you are a gun enthusiast and you're used to distortions.

[Furyataurus]

21. And YOU are never wrong about anything????

[pipoman]

22. I stand corrected

you found ONE out of literally MILLIONS (Florida alone has issued nearly 1.5 million CCW permits, there are 48 states with CCW laws on the books). In addition, the bold lettering in my post indicates a QUOTE from the OP, your quotation marks attribute the quote to me. You have successfully proven that there may be a 1 in multiple millions chance of an incident...hardly makes a point don't ya' think?


Now since you bring it up, it appears you failed to respond to a question asked of you in the thread you are referring to. Care to respond with something other than crickets now...afterall you can't act as if you don't see it this time. In the other thread you posted this bit of circular logic"

(The bold, remember, means I am quoting YOU)8. logical & inexorable

All of the agreed (skimpy) facts known so far make for a fascinating scenario.

The gun enthusiasts have been pretty successful in creating a framework whereby the CCW holder may not be able to be prosecuted. How can his claim of, “SELF DEFENSE” be disproved? He apparently has no criminal record. The only other person known to have been present is dead.

"I was in complete and total fear for my life!"

What else does the CCW holder have to claim?

A conventional wisdom perspective so to speak allows me to think it is more likely than not, that this policeman was murdered by the CCW holder.

(I understand the CCW holder or at least his lawyer has made some reference to a witness but I’m putting that aside for this discussion & my assumption that the CCW holder killed the cop also precludes a rogue cop context).

More guns, in more peoples hands in more places more often, will inexorably lead to more people being shot, some dead some injured some scared s@#$tless.

to which I responded:

(This time the italic indicates I am quoting myself, and the bold italic indicates I am quoting YOU)11. Logical and inexorable?

More guns, in more peoples hands in more places more often, will inexorably lead to more people being shot, some dead some injured some scared s@#$tless.

Any stats from anyplace? Over the last 20 years CCW has compounded dramatically yet gun deaths have decreased to 40 year lows.

Here are some interesting stats and graphs related to gun crime compiled by the US justice department:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

and more

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/fidc9397.htm

Unless you have stats from some source other than gun control activists supporting your claim, the inexorable logic seems to be figments of your imagination.

To which you responded with


Any answers now?

[russ1943]

25. More than hardly.

You posted; “I stand corrected. You have successfully proven that there may be a 1 in multiple millions chance of an incident...hardly makes a point don't ya' think?”
I claim to have made a very significant point.
You were corrected after you’d requested “Any links, or supporting information, or just your biased, uninformed opinion?”

What you posted, (as if it was a fact), was;
“that there was NO record of a law enforcement officers having been injured by a CCW permit holder during a traffic stop, anywhere in the 44 CCW states. ……….

It’s not just that I posted one that proves your factoid wrong, truth is, instead of there being, as you claimed, “NO record of a law enforcement officer being injured by a CCW holder”, there not only was this incident that did result in an officers death committed by a CCW holder, but additionally you had specifically commented about that incident in a previous thread,………. and here (your #15) you post that this is something that has ...never …happened!

You nor I nor anyone can claim to know for certain that CCW holders haven’t committed all kinds of crime. Many/most states consider the names of CCW license holders to be protected or private information, unavailable to general public and importantly, reporters.

Some states reporting of CCW holders involvement in crime are seriously questioned http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/florida/sfl-gunmain28jan28,0,2918397.story

[pipoman]

23. Oh, and by the way, this is the definition of a "drive by poster"

never discusses anything, just slinks through occasionally, spews some bit of disputable yaw-yaw, then disappears until the next firearm thread he feels like throwing his lead nickle into.

[TWiley]

24. As usual, your argument is fallicious.

You are attacking the poster and not addressing his viewpoint. This is a logical fallacy

[jeepnstein]

30. Do you know the whole story on that shooting?

Context is important.

[paulsby]

26. i've been a cop 20 yrs

i have never seen nor heard of a licensed CCW'er assaulting a police officer with their firearm.

ever.

i have dealt with tons of people lawfully carrying

WA state

i have heard of several incidents of CCW'ers helping cops. in one incident, a female officer was attacked and the guy got her gun and they were wrestling for it.

the guy walked up and shot the robber in the head.

good for him

[Tim01]

35. I may quote you on this, here from time to time. If that is OK.

[virginia mountainman]

4. Stats please....

If you can't post proof, your full of shit...

[Schema Thing]

6. oh please, some things are self evident

[rl6214]

7. Self evident

Like posts like that are full of shit!

[yay]

8. So your full of shit, gotcha

[pipoman]

16. Like the 'self evident

claims that CCW would result in wild west shootouts? Never happened. Result in crossfire situations? Never happened. Result in road rage shootings? I have read about maybe 1 or 2. Result in domestic abuse? Never happened. Result in collateral deaths? Never happened. Result in CCW holders shooting each other because they think the other is a bad guy? Never happened.

All these claims and more have been (and are) common arguments against CCW based on 'self evident' theory, yet they have never come to pass with literally millions of private citizens carrying concealed every day. 'Self evident' = warped, biased, uneducated, uninformed, unprovable, erroneous conclusions.

[yay]

5. links/studies/something otherwise you're full of shit NT

[gorfle]

9. Actually...

If you look at the actual published statistics for CCW permit holders (most states do not license gun owners so CCW permit holders is a better metric) you will see that CCW permit holders are many times, sometimes hundreds of times less likely to be involved in firearm crime than non CCW permit holders.

[one-eyed fat man]

10. just one recent example

The clarion call has been sounded, both by the politicians in Philadelphia, and by the Philadelphia media, that the only way to prevent cop killings is to pass more gun laws. You seem to agree. Let's look at the three paragons of virtue that were responsible for the shooting death of Sergeant Liczbinski.



Howard Cain was the trigger man in the Liczbinski murder. You can see his fifteen page criminal record here. Howard Cain
Look at all the violations of the Pennsylvania Uniform Firearms Act that Cain has been arrested for. Keep in mind, these are only gun charges. Over Cain’s criminal career he had thirteen arrests for unlawfully carrying a firearm, that were listed “Nolle Prossed,” meaning the prosecutor chose not to bring charges. In a further eleven arrests for violations of Pennsylvania’s firearms laws, the charges were either withdrawn or dismissed. In only three cases was he prosecuted and either plead guilty or was found guilty. On weapons charges alone, he could have done 12 years in prison, in which case he would not have been on the streets to kill a police officer.

You can find Levon Warner’s criminal record here. Levon Warner
His is only six pages. Warner is facing three charges for being a felon in possession of a firearm, and for unlawfully carrying firearms, in his latest arrest for conspiring to murder a police officer. Do you think Ms. Abraham’s office will make them stick this time? Previously, the Philadelphia DA’s office thrice declined to prosecute Warner for gun law violations. The Philadelphia judicial system chose not to try him for six other violations of Pennsylvania’s gun laws.

And last, but certainly not least, Eric Floyd. Eric Floyd
Again, hopefully this time, he’ll actually face weapons charges, in addition to the murder charges. But again, in 1994, he was arrested for robbery, and the prosecutors declined to prosecute him for carrying firearms illegally in two counts. Also in 1994, the courts declined to try him for two counts of carrying firearms illegally.

Now keep in mind, this is only weapons charges. The rap sheets of these scumbags total twenty six pages, and contains all manner of things that should have kept them off the streets for good. Maybe you should look at about how absolutely and utterly broken the City of Philadelphia’s criminal justice system is.

This blind faith in the efficacy of gun control is unjustifiable, especially, since the system is currently not using the laws already in the books in prosecutions. Don't you think you deserve better from your political leaders? You going to fight hard to pass more gun "restrictions" the crooks won't obey and your prosecutors won't prosecute?? Maybe that's why all your sophisticated and forward-looking "big city" restrictions aren't quite working. Or is this some kind of stimulus package? The cops and the courts don't have enough to do so you have "Catch and Release" that way they can recycle violent criminals through the neighborhood until they kill somebody.

[jmg257]

11. I think walkaway...walked away. nt

[jmg257]

12. When 90% of gun offenders in Chicago have serious criminal histories, it is hard

to imagine more cops being shot by licensed gun owners then criminals.



"Between 1996 and 2005, of the 575 officers killed --

26% were in arrest situations
18% were in ambush situations
18% were making traffic pursuits/stops
17% were on disturbance calls
12% were investigating suspicious persons/circumstances
10% were in other situations


Of the 662 assailants identified in the killing of law enforcement officers from
1996-2005 -- more than half had a prior conviction, 2 out of 5 had a prior arrest for a violent crime.

"Most law enforcement officers are killed with firearms, particularly handguns
The greatest proportion of the recent decline in murders of law enforcement officers is attributable to the decline in handgun murders."
yr #killed
1996 61
1997 70
1998 61
1999 42
2000 51
2001 70
2002 56
2003 52
2004 57
2005 55

[Tim01]

27. I'll bet is isn't only Chicago.

[rl6214]

29. I'd be willing to get in on that bet

How much? $100, $1000. I'm in.

[24601]

34. I'm in for $1000 that it's more than Chicago

The stats are from the US DOJ and are nationwide. If there had been 575 Chicago Officers killed between 1996 and 2005, they aould be patrolling in Bradleys and carrying Uzis.

Link: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/leok.htm

[Hoopla Phil]

13. Interesting site. Thanks

I remember back in the early 80's an incident that was in the newspapers. A cop had pulled someone over on the interstate. The guy turned out to be a real bad, and real big, dude. A struggle ensued with them rolling around on the ground. The bad guy eventually got the cops gun and stood up and took aim at the cop on the ground when he was shot by a (real) high powered rifle in the chest. A passing motorist on the opposite side of the interstate was going home from a deer hunt. He saw what was going on, pulled over and retrieved his deer rifle. He took aim at the bad guy while resting the rifle on the hood of his truck and waited for an opportunity to shoot.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Washington State actually has a separate statute for justifiable homicide

just for citizens aiding a police officer. I don't think it gets dusted off too terribly often, but it does happen.

[CarinKaryn]

17. Wanking Material

These kind of "I was there" stories are common among the Walter Middy gun lovers. Gives them something to dream about in between cleaning their "weapons."

They are usually cited as "I heard about someone who...." and rarely have supporting citations.

Sadly, the only time most gunlovers will shoot someone is when they cap their own foot while drunk or shoot their teenager who is sneaking in after curfew.

But it's nice to dream...

[spin]

18. "Wanking" is British vulgar slang...

is it possible that you are from Great Britain or Canada?

If so, I doubt that you actually know many gun owners and your only experience of them might as the boggeymen in your dreams.

If you did know anything about "gun lovers" you would know that they consider cleaning firearms about as pleasurable as washing dishes.

[Tim01]

19. Hysterical much?

[yay]

28. Source? Nt

[rl6214]

31. Wanking material huh?

What class.