20/20: Easy Access: $5,000 and One Hour Buys 10 Guns

[RamboLiberal]

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Immediately following the tragedy, Virginia Governor Tim Kaine and other authorities called on lawmakers to close the so called "gun show loophole" -- by which anyone can buy a gun from a private dealer with no background check and no questions asked. Two years later, that loophole is still very much open, in Virginia and 32 other states around the country.

So just how easy is it to buy a gun at a gun show?

For over a year, ABC News has followed Omar Samaha on a very personal quest to hold those lawmakers to their word. Omar's sister Reema was one of 32 shot and killed at Virginia Tech. We went with Omar to a gun show in Richmond, Va. -- one of hundreds held every weekend across the state of Virginia and the country. We gave Samaha $5,000 and one hour to see how many guns he could buy, and how many questions he would be asked.

By 9:30 in the morning, the parking lot was already packed full of cars. Groups of men, couples and even families with children in tow streamed toward the quickly growing line out front. Samaha, 25, joined the crowds and while waiting on line, he was approached by a seller and given the opportunity to make a quick purchase. He bought a Glock handgun, with no background check, and no questions asked.

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For Samaha, the Glock handgun was a particularly painful purchase. It was the same kind of gun used to kill his sister Reema when she was a freshman at Virginia Tech. Just holding the gun in his hand was difficult.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7297745&page=1

All gun buys should have to go through an FFL IMHO. I'm sure they won't, but the NRA should get behind this as well. It would be a good PR gesture.

[slackmaster]

1. I wish I could buy them that easily in California

My background was thoroughly checked when I applied for my Federal Firearms License. I believe anyone who has an FFL of any kind should be exempt from background checks and waiting periods.

As for requiring all private sales to go through an FFL - We have that system in California. It is workable, even with the background checks and 10-day wait. It is possible, though somewhat more of a hassle, to buy firearms at gun shows here. But I am quite sure it would be a hard sell in most states.

However, in my case it is far simpler and less expensive for me to simply order curios and relics over the Internet or through the mail and have them shipped to my house. No DROS fee, no 8.25% California sales tax, no dealer markup, no 10-day wait, no multiple documents to prove residence, no ridiculous trigger lock requirement.

I wish 20/20 would do a followup show on how much of a hassle the state of California has made it to buy a firearm, especially a handgun, at a gun show.

[TXRAT2]

24. Question?

Had he actually purchased any of these firearms from a FFL he would have had to fill out and sign ATF Form 4473. By signing that form he and 20/20 would have committed a felony straw purchase? Looks like it to me. Kind of like the Bloomberg purchase which is still in the courts.

[slackmaster]

29. That's a great question, and I don't know the answer

:hi:

[yay]

2. Problem is

FFL's like to charge up the ass for co-signing. I know my local one charges $100.

But if you buy something online and have it shipped to them it's only $25...

[slackmaster]

4. A curio and relic collector's FFL costs $30 for three years

It usually pays for itself with the purchase of one or two inexpensive rifles.

[yay]

6. Don't those just apply to well... curio's and relics though?

And not new or modern weapons?

[slackmaster]

8. Yes, curios and relics

Which includes lots of nice things like the M1 Garand rifle.

[yay]

9. Was going to say

It would be pointless for me... but then I realized how many WWII era firearms I was planing on adding to my collection...

Eh I'll have to look into it when I get my 3 gun competition setup.

[slackmaster]

10. A decent Garand is a great competition rifle

With a collector's FFL and a membership in the Garand Collectors Association, you can buy them direct from the Civilian Marksmanship Program.

http://www.odcmp.com

[yay]

11. I'd be a bit outgunned in 3 gun competition.

Something like the AR-15 is a bit better suited, 30 round magazine and the minimal recoil of .223 makes it better suited than a garand.

[rrneck]

3. When will Mr. Samaha

be a witness for the prosecution at the trial of the gun dealers that sold him the guns?

I wonder if this is another symptom of an underfunded federal government? Those fuckers should be locked up.

[slackmaster]

5. Those individuals were not gun dealers

They were unlicensed individuals selling used firearms.

If they were in fact operating a business without a Federal Firearms License, that would indeed be a serious crime.

[RamboLiberal]

12. No law was broken in Virginia

Federal and Virginia laws require licensed gun dealers to screen customers through instant background checks. Felons, mentally ill people and domestic abusers are barred from buying firearms. But the state does not require background checks for people who buy guns in private sales at gun shows. State police say that 22 percent to 35 percent of people who sell guns at shows are unlicensed.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/18/AR2008011801881.html

[primavera]

45. Precisely

I thought it was interesting to see a prospective buyer approach the 20/20 crew in the parking lot with their carful of guns and ask whether they had any .22s for sale. Or the guy who sold the Glock to them while standing in line. No one is trying to hide anything here, as no one is doing anything that's illegal. It just kind of makes one wonder what the point is of requiring gun dealers to jump through hoops if a significant percentage of firearm sales can legally be transacted so causally out of the back of cars, no questions asked. So a licensed dealer can't legally sell you the gun, well and good, but if you can just amble out into the parking lot and buy the same gun legally from somebody who isn't licensed, it renders the efficacy of the gun dealer's precautions laughably ludicrous.

[Hangingon]

7. What is a "private dealer"?

The supposed "gun show loophole" is in fact a private citizen selling a gun. The "gun show loophole" is a straw man. Give me $5,000 and a year and I can buy 10 guns without going to a gun show. Guns are advertised in newspapers, on range bulletin boards and any number of other places. The BATFE can and should enforce the present laws. The requirement for involvement of an FFL in every gun transaction is an expensive, harassment of gun owners. I look forward to seeing the 20/20 piece. If this is an indication of the slant of the piece, I will be sadly disappointed in thee objectivity of ABC News.

[yay]

13. Come to think of it

Didn't the VT shooter get his pistols from a gun shop following all the rules? If that's the case then why are we worried about the gun show loop hole exactly?

[RamboLiberal]

14. I would think if you are a criminal or if you want to purchase

to sell a gun illegally and not take a chance of getting charged as a strawman cause you are recorded as purchaser of that gun that turns up in a crime then this would be a way of doing it. Or you just have something on your record that prevents you from getting a gun but your really, really, want one.

Also a way to get a gun if you're from a state who has stricter purchase laws.

Then Virginia is the place to go.

I know VA is one state that NYC has traced many of the guns involved in crime in NYC have come from.

[Statistical]

15. Or you buy one of the tens of millions of illegal/street guns

Far easier, far faster, and far more convenient than waiting for next gun show.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/fuo.pdf

The DOJ "Firearm Use By Offender Report"

Source of firearm
Retail Gunshop: 8%
Pawnshop: 4%
Fleamarket: 1%
Gunshow: <1%
Friend/Family: 40%
Street/Illegal: 40%

The truth is black and white 80% of firearms used in crime were obtained from family & friends or from the streets.

[RamboLiberal]

16. What would be the harm in having a law in every state

that all gun transactions go through FFL? Or require a NICS table at every gun show.

I think probably all states you have to go through a state transfer of ownership for a private auto sale.

Interesting Reading in ATF report on their investigation of Gun Shows.

http://www.usdoj.gov/oig/reports/ATF/e0707/final.pdf

[ManiacJoe]

17. The problem is the "gun show" mentality.

There is nothing special about gun shows. Gun laws are not specific to geography. The same laws apply to gun shows as they do to dealer stores, private homes, and church parking lots. The "gun show" loophole is actually the "private seller" loophole, and it is not a loophole.

The NICS check should be opened to the general public so that private sellers would have a better way of screening their buyers since the same laws governing eligibility of the buyer apply equally to both dealers and private sellers.

[yay]

18. Indentity theft

I've told you this a few times dude. You have to get a LOT of personal information about a person to run a background check. DL#, SS#, name, address, ect. Opening NCIS to the public would be a stupid move.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. You aren't doing a background check, you are doing an NICS check.

It comes back approved or disapproved. Not with all their private information and their credit report.

David

[Statistical]

27. The problem is that to DO an NICS check you need personal information

Name, address, dob, SS#

that is enough to open a checking account in someones name or get a CC.
It is enough to access their credit report and call their creditors and change address and have new card issued.

I am not sure I would feel comfortable giving my personal info to just about anyone.

Maybe a reverse NICS system?
I register myself and get an NICS card.
It has my name and NICS verified #.

Anyone can ask to see my NICS card and enter the verified # into a website or NICS automated phone line.
System will give indicate if the verified # is valid and who it is assigned to.

I am sure there are loopholes in the system but it could be refined.

Any system involving private NICS checks should NEVER require me giving information to enable identify theft.

[slackmaster]

30. I would use a mail notification system and severe penalties for misusing NICS

If someone checks up on you through NICS, you get a letter saying who did so and when, with information sufficient to identify the individual.

Think about this - There really isn't anything (other than the threat of loss of license) to prevent an 01 FFL from using NICS to check up on someone who has applied to rent an apartment that the FFL holder owns. I would not be surprised if that happens.

[Statistical]

36. True but an FFL is at least a tracked trusted person.

Imagine this scenario.

I want to steal someones identify.

I buy a popular weapon then offer it for sale for an incredible deal.

Of course I am responsible seller so I ask slcakmaster to provide the following
Full Legal Name
Address
DOB
SS#

Of course this is so I can complete NCIS check.

"Great slackmaster you passed. here is your incredible deal of a firearm".

Within a week I have a copy of slckamasters birth cert which i use to get a DL in his name.
I have a credit card and bank account in slackmaster's name.
At this point I am slackmaster.

The info required for an NICS check is EXACTLY the info professional thieves use to steal identity.

[slackmaster]

37. Under my system, I have your personal information in hand

So I call the cops on you.

[Statistical]

39. Of course somone stealing your info for identify fraud likely is not using their correct identity.

All I am saying is that any system that requires me to either:
a) be unable to complete person to person transaction on legally owned private property
b) requires be to give over personal information and risk Identity theft

is unacceptable. I would lobby/vote/donate against it.

It is not acceptable to force law abiding gun buyers to risk identity theft in order to do the right thing.

[X_Digger]

34. You know, that might just work..

No personal identification received by private seller other than name (assuming you enter your own NICS # into the person's phone). The only qualm I would have is that NICS has information on _all_ legal gun owners rather than just the prohibited persons.

Tough nut to crack, but it seems like a novel solution worth thinking about further.

[rl6214]

43. You don't need to have a SS#

to do the NICS check but it is helpful especially for common names.

[old mark]

44. My understanding is that the SSAN is not "necessary", but it really

is highly recommended on the background check.
Supposedly it is illegal to use the Social Security Account Number for identification purposes if you are not the Social Sxecurity Administration, but this practice has become so widespread the law is pretty much ignored.

mark

[aikoaiko]

28. Sure, then you can use a FFL who gets the same information.

I've had private seller require that they photocopy my driver's license to complete the sale. I didn't like that so I walked away. Its a choice.

In my state at least, I have to prove residency so I show my DL license so I do, but I don't let them copy the information or photocopy the license.

Plus NICS does not require that you provide SS#, and if it were a private sale one wouldn't be forced to leave the private information with the seller.

[Statistical]

35. My parents were not very original.

Both my first and last name are incredibly common.

Yellow pages shows about 60 just in my local area. Maybe 400-500 in the state.
If I don't use SS# for NICS it comes back invalid.

I don't mind private individual having a system to "check me" before selling me a gun.
No problem at all.

I won't be for a system that require me giving:
Name
Address
DOB
SS#

to a COMPLETE STRANGER so he can do an "NICS check" and then next day open bank account, CC in my name, request copy of my birth cert, and get driver's license in my name.

Identity thieves would quickly learn a fool proof way to steal someones identity would be to buy a gun then offer it for sale as a scam to get those 4 pieces of info.

[aikoaiko]

38. In the case with your level of desired confidence you and the seller could go to a FFL.

For the rest of us, we could just do it over the phone.

Like I said, in GA I am responsible for making sure my buyer is a GA residence and of proper age, and I ask to see a GA issued ID when privately selling. It provides me everything except the #SS. I don't know of any other way to be sure of legal residency so I assume most people do require a state issued ID (perhaps not). In most ways, except the SS which is optional, you already have to provide this information to sellers.

But how about this, when its time to give the SS#, the seller hands the phone to the buyer, the buyer says the number discreetly, and then the seller won't know it.

[ManiacJoe]

41. You are not thinking this though far enough.

I want to buy your gun.
You ask for the required info, write it down.
You phone the NICS system, do the check.
You write down the confirmation number.
I give you the money; you give me the gun.
You keep the confirmation number, I get back the paper you wrote everything else on.
You have what you need for your records, I have everything else about me.
No problem.

[Furyataurus]

50. The only "loophole" there is

is when an FFL dealer is being forced to shut down by the ATF and they are ALLOWED to sell off their remaining firearms WITHOUT an NICS check!!!! Now THAT is a "loophole". Since private citizens aren't an FFL dealer they are NOT required to do the NICS check, thus, no "loophole". I agree, if people WANT to do an NICS check they can before they sell a gun to someone, if not, well then they are just going to sell it anyways.

[slackmaster]

51. I don't believe that

I believe unsold inventory of an 01 FFL with a revoked license gets seized by the BATFE and returned to the manufacturer or wholesaler.

Cite, please.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. You could also do the same by looking at the classifieds in the newspaper.

They sell guns there too. It's the same loophole. Individuals selling personal property to other individuals.

[scrinmaster]

19. Meh. I've bought a few guns from friends of mine.

They wouldn't really be that great of a deal if we both had to drive to a gun store and have the FFL call in the transfer. I really don't want to spend an extra $25 per gun.

[slackmaster]

32. I bought six or seven firearms from a biker, none were C&Rs

It was a hassle doing it legally. The temptation to just bypass the system and exchange weapons for cash must be very tempting for some people.

For example, handguns in California have been registered starting with transfers in 1968. But I own a pre-'68 handgun, and there are a lot of people who still do. Those are not on the books, so the Cali D0J doesn't know about them until someone does a transfer the way it is supposed to be done.

A post-'68 handgun brought illegally into California can be made legal by transferring it through a dealer. Only the residency of the seller is checked, not the registration status of the gun (which makes sense because it is likely that the state's database has errors).

As for non-C&R long guns, the state doesn't know anything about them. There is no effective way to enforce the requirement to transfer them through a dealer.

I like doing it the legal way because it covers you in the event that the weapon is being sought by law enforcement as evidence in a crime investigation. I'd rather have the DOJ find out about it during a lawful transfer than in a traffic stop later.

[Hoopla Phil]

20. I've NEVER had this kind of experience at a Gun Show!!

----------------
Samaha was never asked to fill out any type of background check. At one point he was asked to show identification. When Samaha said he didn't have any, the seller quickly relented, not wanting to lose a sale.

"He's like, 'Give me $100 more and I'll let you go and take the risk.' I got two guns for $600 without any identification check," Samaha said.
----------------

I seriously question the validity of this story because I've seen first hand the exact OPPOSITE happening at gun shows. People trying to buy "without papers" and getting the response that everything is papered from the dealer. This is contrary to my experience with gun shows and I go to a LOT of gun shows.

[X_Digger]

21. Same here.. has to be a private seller, not FFL dealer

As a private seller and as a private buyer, I've been asked for personal details, and as a private seller, I always asked for and recorded ID details.

Nobody wants to sell a gun to a prohibited person on the chance that it may come back on you, or buy one from a prohibited person who may have used it in the commission of a crime.

[benEzra]

25. Did they point out that the VT shooter did NOT buy his guns from private sellers

at gun shows, but bought them from licensed dealers and passed a background check because the state of Virginia flubbed getting their mental health records into NICS?

If they didn't, the "VT angle" was downright dishonest, as the private-sales issue had nothing whatsoever to do with the VT shootings.

[aikoaiko]

26. Just open NICS to private sellers and states can require it as part their laws.

No FFL needed.

[Tim01]

31. This seems like such a good solution. I'm going to start writing letters on this one.

[slackmaster]

33. Thanks for that Tim - I've been doing so for years

Of course Senators Boxer and Feinstein both have me on their kook lists, so they just ignore me.

[MercutioATC]

46. Open an FBI crime database to the public??

It'll never happen. The potential for abuse is too great.

[slackmaster]

52. NICS is not a crime database - It is a list of prohibited persons

When a sale is denied because of a failed NICS check, the specific reason is not communicated to the dealer or the wanabe buyer. That can only be determined through the appeals process.

[virginia mountainman]

40. This is NOT the gun show loophole...

It IS, a PRIVATE SALE. Open up NICS to all of us.

Private Sale, means just that if my neighbor, wants to buy something, I can sell it too him. I Will resist any laws that require private sales go thru an FFL dealer.

The ONLY way to enforce such a law, is registration...And since registration is so far out of the question, it is a non-starter...The government does not have any justification for trying to control my private property, or family heirlooms...It is NONE of their beeswax.

All I see is another "hit peice" on guns....Nothing new...

[rl6214]

42. I have gone to 3 or 4 gun shows a year

for the past 25 years or so and have NEVER had anyone walk up to me or seen anyone walk up to anyone and ask them if they want to buy a gun.

[primavera]

47. Different states have different laws

It may well be the case that your state has laws on the book which make that sort of transaction less customary. That doesn't alter the fact that, in other parts of the country, different practices exist.

[X_Digger]

48. Here's a good link for laws by state..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)

[spanky_bear]

49. That was nuts!

It is so scary that guns are this easy to get

[jeepnstein]

53. What's the big deal?

You can go to Wal Mart and get one almost any time.

If you can't pass the NICS check, you can always buy one from your friendly street corner crack dealer. Most folks who buy guns from their drug dealer are already prohibited from owning a firearm for a variety of good reasons.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

54. Finally an honest gun control person. Welcome to DU.