I Didn't Really Think Much About Gun Control Until The Crazies...

[rucky]

started coming out of the woodwork, and threatening violence - gun violence - over taking guns away, of all things. Now I'm beginning to see a compelling case building for gun control.

I realize that a VAST majority of gun-owners are responsible citizens who would never use their guns for aggression. But this fringe that's rising up is starting to make private citizens feel more unsafe.

It's up to the responsible gun owners to put an end to this madness. Not as much by going against the people who are now calling for gun control, but by easing fears and going strongly against this fringe of gun nuts. They're heading towards a self-fulfilling prophecy, if the threats escalate. Gun-neutral people will become more anti-gun. Anti-gun people will get even more anti-gun as this threat escalates, and then there may actually be some gun-control legislation.

If you're in the NRA or some other organization, you should pressure your group denounce these threats of violence. They are hurting the rights of responsible gun owners and threatening you and other peaceful citizens.

[Junkdrawer]

1. "The Crazies" are buying the gun stores clean....

True story:

My Canadian friend is a sport hunter. He went to the gun store for bullets. The place was almost bare. On the counter was a picture of "Obama as Gun Grabber". When he asked the store owner what happened, the owner tapped the picture and said "Our best salesman".

Do you really think the NRA wants to ruin their best sales campaign ever? :shrug:

[walldude]

10. Another true story:

Buddy of mine fell for the "Obama is going to take your guns away meme. Here's a guy who is so deep in debt he had to change his phone number because he was getting 20 calls a day from creditors. He maxed out his last 3 credit cards so he could buy a semi-auto rifle, because Obama was going to ban them all.

[michreject]

65. It took him three cards to buy one rifle - WTF

What did he buy, a Barrett?

[walldude]

73. Well he was nearly maxed out on everything..

and I'm not a gun guy but it was some huge sniper rifle with a night vision scope and one of those tripos that fold into it. It was like 6 grand and he had to split it between his maxed out cards. I've been picking on him ever since, he's really not a neo-con just not too bright and easily manipulated.

[gorfle]

95. I'd watch who you were picking on...

I've been picking on him ever since, he's really not a neo-con just not too bright and easily manipulated.

I'd watch who you pick on.

Seriously.

The common thread of all of these mass murderers is that they felt picked on.

[doctor jazz]

2. Sure, there a few people who abuse the Constitution not just the Bill of Rights so let's just

burn the whole goddamn thing.

[tosh]

5. ???

So what does this have to do with this perfectly reasonable OP?:shrug:

[walldude]

11. What the fuck are you talking about?

Maybe you gun folks(whom I don't have a problem with) ought to re-read your precious second amendment. It says "a well regulated militia. Those words do actually mean something. But you know don't let the constitution get in the way of people wanting to own weapons that shoot 100 rounds per second.

[hack89]

12. Since all men over under the age of 45 are part of the militia

according to federal law, I guess I am covered.

[Terry in Austin]

26. Yes, but are you well-regulated?

:patriot:

[jmg257]

34. I am! Well armed and well-trained, sir!

[Statistical]

63. Wow. Someone else knows what "well regulated" means. I am impressed.

[michreject]

66. You oughta re-read Heller

the 2nd is an individual right, not collective.

[beevul]

84. In modern lanuage...

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, because a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state".

The words "well regulated militia" do not mean what you appear to think they do.

[gorfle]

96. That old chestnut?

Maybe you gun folks(whom I don't have a problem with) ought to re-read your precious second amendment. It says "a well regulated militia. Those words do actually mean something.

Ah, the old "guns are for the militia" chestnut.

First of all, the recent Heller Supreme Court decision has held that the right to keep and bear arms is an individual right irrespective of membership in a militia.

Second of all, even if it did apply only to militias, the militias as our founders intended them, that is, a decentralized military force suitable to eliminate or at least counter federal military power, no longer exists, and has not existed since 1903 with the passage of the Dick Act, which federalized the state militias and formed the National Guard.

Third of all, the Dick Act, in addition to creating the Organized Militia (the National Guard), also created the Unorganized Militia, which consists of all other able bodied men aged 17-45 not in the Organized Militia.

But you know don't let the constitution get in the way of people wanting to own weapons that shoot 100 rounds per second.

The only weapon I know of that is capable of that rate of fire is a minigun ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun ), and this is a non-transferable weapon not available for the public to buy. It is a crew-served weapon and does not fall in the category of "arms" spoken of in the second amendment.

[uppityperson]

71. Maybe you should read the whole OP

[customerserviceguy]

3. Instead of gun control, how about crazies control?

If we locked up anybody even suspected of being a crazie, this might not happen.

It's all a matter of which set of rights you want to violate, correct?

[tekisui]

7. Crazies control is quality, accessible mental health care.

That is where our energies need to go.

[redqueen]

37. Hear hear!

Address the cause rather than the symptom.

[jmg257]

4. "heading towards a self-fulfilling prophecy...". Exactly. And then what?

Crazies will become more crazy, and there will be more instances of violence, against the innocent & against 'the state'.

Leading to more and more-intrusive control, leading to...


I think some more gun control is inevitable now, too hot a subject, too many incidents not to feel they have to do SOMETHING.

And then watch things go spinning faster.

I do like your idea - about denouncing the actual violence, seems a no-brainer. But still, many have/will use those incidences as justification not only for more control, but for more guns too.

[Iktomiwicasa]

75. Any time

a politician feels that they by God have to "do something* we end up fucked.

[walkaway]

6. I think you are so right

If your average gun owner belonged to an organization that was willing to set strict and sensible standards for gun ownership and put serious restrictions on owners of the more extreme types of guns, the the rest of us wouldn't have much to say.

Instead they all belong to the NRA and their demands of no rules and deadly force makes them all look like lunatics to those of us who are not gun owners.

In a way, gun owners are correct. It's going to get more difficult every day to own a gun. Not because of Obama but because you can't and wont control yourselves and people are getting sick of it.

The NRA is well know for making up statistics to suit themselves but more people are for gun control than ever before.

[jmg257]

8. The problems are always agreeing on what is 'sensible' and 'extreme'.

While they make great buzz words, like 'reasonable', 'easy-access' & 'miltary-style'. chances are your notions are very different then mine.

Statistics seem to take a hit from both sides in this issue. They also have the nasty habit of not always agreeing with you.
Better off not trying to justify a right, or the infringement of that right, on most of them.

[derby378]

9. It depends on what those "strict and sensible standards" really are

Gallup took a poll in October 2008 indicating that support for gun control overall has dropped to its lowest point in at least 15 years, even with tragedies such as Columbine, VTech, and Stockton in mind:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/117361/Support-Gun-Control-Laws-Time-Lows.aspx

Also, gun owners have been gradually stripped of their rights since 1968, forced to compromise a little here and a little there while gun-control activists refused to give up any ground. This culminated in the semi-auto ban of 1994 that cost Democrats control of Congress and made the George W. Bush administration possible.

The current paradigm of gun control has failed - and a record number of Americans are aware of it. It's time to evolve new ideas.

[Statistical]

25. In the same sentence you blame NRA for "making up stats" you make one up yourself

In last 18 years support for "stricter gun control" declined from a super majority of 78% to 49%.
Even 49% is misleading because "stricter gun control" is different for some people.
For some they would support everything up to an including a ban on all weapons. Period.
Some wouldn't support a ban but would support some severe regulation.
Some are more interested in minor improvements say more rapid updates of mental health data to NICS.

Non gun owners tend to be less of a single issue voter than gun owners.
As a result an anti gun stance affects an elected offical more strongly than a pro-gun stance.

Put it all together and the 49% is more like high water mark.
When it comes down to a specific legislation support is likely going to be less.
Maybe just a little less for something more "sensible" and a lot less for something like a "Ban".

I know it may be hard for you to accept facts and not rhetoric but NRA was the leader in lobbying Congress for the NICS (Instant Background Check).
NRA also offers safety and defensive firearm course.

What exactly is "strict & sensible" standards?
Which "strict & sensible" standard is the NRA against? Please cite. NRA press releases are available on their website.

Please show one example where NRA is "demands no rules"?
NRA support for criminals to own weapons?
NRA support for removing background check system?
NRA support for removing mental health records for NICS?

[one-eyed fat man]

94. You didn't respond yesterday, but

please explain how any law would have stopped criminals like this, especially when they keep letting them walk on gun charges?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=213718&mesg_id=213790

You call for more laws the crooks won't obey and the prosecutors won't prosecute, and, apparently, believe with all your heart that it will solve the problem. By magic, career criminals will quit killing cops. Gangbangers will quit shooting up each other. Lone losers will quit getting even everyone they think wronged them and Code Pink will quit setting fire to military recruiting offices. Where are you buying that stuff you smoke?

[Tim01]

13. Gun owner here. I hear you.

I'll do what I can to let these people know I do not approve of the talk of violence.

[msongs]

14. racist gun wingnuts and fear of a black president - great for business eh gun shops? nt

[Tim01]

18. I actually know racists. The gun issue is not about race. Ridiculous.

[virginia mountainman]

44. Then why are the Racists, buying BLACK guns??? NT

[riderinthestorm]

15. NPR did a story yesterday on this issue. The gun shop owner was adamant that Obama was "socialist"

and that was the big reason everyone was buying guns and ammo... :crazy: It was the wildest, most far-fetched connection I'd ever heard but there it is.

The far right thugs are ramping up real fear out there amongst the gullible that Obama's going to bring "socialism" to the US, and that this is going to somehow jeopardize their gun ownership. Or that he's out to abolish the second amendment. The fact that Obama's a constitutional law scholar doesn't seem to have sunk into any of their minds....

I just have to point out that the left may have been upset and dismayed at Bush's mishandling of our constitution but nobody felt like they had to go out and stock up on weapons when he won. Not in 2000, nor even in 2004. We organized protest marches, wrote LTTEs, called our congresspeople (right fucking now!!11!!) but this crazy, violent, hyper manic reaction to Obama is pretty scary to watch.

I'm dead cert that Obama's never taking their weapons away but their weapons ownership (misuse?) could provoke more gun control than they'd like if they can't be responsible about it. The NPR story was talking about owners buying cases and cases (I think the term was "lifetime supply") of ammunition! That's wild.

Perhaps I missed it, was there a large faction of the left that got weaponized when Bush was elected?

It will be interesting if 4 years go by, and their weapons ownership is never challenged by the Obama Admin (as I expect), then what? If he gets re-elected, will there be another wave of crazy gun purchasing as the right wing thugs ramp it all up again?

I have to qualify all of this with the observation that terrible economic times may seriously damage our societal fabric. Combining the very real possibility of a depression, with this many weapons, is scary for me.

[lepus]

85. actually, I started stocking up on guns and ammo

after his reelection based on what he was doing with the constitution.

Based on the OP. If you are not willing to fight for the ability to fight for your rights, you lose the ability to fight for any of your other rights.

Check out how well popular demonstrations work in countries that have disarmed their populace.

[TwilightGardener]

16. It's a self-perpetuating problem now--crazies buying guns in droves, more

incidents of mass killing with guns (mostly due to economic hard times or paranoia or hate), more people see this and think, "I've gotta get me a gun" rather than "Geez, we really need stricter controls". If you attribute the problem of widespread gun violence to there not being ENOUGH guns in enough people's hands, then it's hopeless. And that's what's going on, even on DU.

[Junkdrawer]

20. The gunners are a minority on DU...BUT...

they have well coordinated talking points and almost no one wants to argue with them. So it looks like they're the majority.

Happens with many issues...

[Tim01]

21. I think you are wrong on this. I used to hold the same view.

[TwilightGardener]

22. Yes. What bothers me is that many on DU who disagree with the gun-o-philes

here still feel the need to reflexively bow and scrape to the second amendment bullies before they make their feeble contrary point ("I respect your right to own a gun, but..."). I guess we've just had it drummed into our heads for so long that increased gun control is a political loser that even on a stupid anonymous message board, we're reluctant to make a strong argument for it.

[Statistical]

23. Actually the last 2 polls on DU have shown the opposite.

Gun owners out number non gun owners.

Also second poll showed the majority of gun owners do not hunt.

[Junkdrawer]

24. Gun owners respond to DU polls more than non gun owners....

Like I said, most DUers avoid gun threads.

Gun ownership in the US was at 34.5 percent in 2006.

http://www.issuelab.org/research/shrinking_minority_the_continuing_decline_of_gun_ownership_in_america

[jmg257]

42. Yep - only 65+MILLION in 2006, Must be about 80+ MILLION now...atleast.

[mudesi]

27. They Should All Be Tombstoned

Sorry, but where is the pro life forum? Where is the defense of traditional marriage forum? Where is the pro capital punishment forum? Is this a liberal/progressive site or not? Why do the gun nuts get a place on DU to post their bullshit talking points?

Pro NRA talking point gun people can go to freeper land where they belong.

[X_Digger]

31. Nice.. just blow off 50% of the 80M gun owners who are (D)/(I)

Goodonya for being bigoted to those dems and independents who own guns.

And here I thought that 'if you don't agree with me go away' crap was unique to freeperville.

[mudesi]

33. Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit

There's a difference between owning a gun and being an NRA toady. Maybe you fuckers haven't realized that the NRA is an extreme right wing lobby group funded by Republicans? Or maybe you're Republicans straight up. Either way, this is a site for LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES, so take your anti gun control shit elsewhere. Just like the pro lifers and the anti gay marriage people don't have their own forum and are not permitted to spout their shit on this site, so the same should be for the NRA folks around here.

[aikoaiko]

46. I'm a paying DU member and a paying NRA member

Because the NRA supports guns ownership rights and Democrats who support gun ownership rights. And yes, they support Republicans who support gun ownership rights too.

[rvablue]

61. I can't fundamentally take issue with people owning guns as the 2nd amendment does exist

but you do realize that that NRA membership is going to smear and lie about Obama, right?

You can own guns and you will always be able to own guns (no one is going to ban guns ever, if one is being rational and realistic). But is it necessary to contribute to a group that is going to smear and lie and gin up fear about the President no matter what he does?

I give you this challenge: you will see for yourself that the Obama administration is not going to ban guns. If that remains the case, how long will it take for you to rescind your membership to an organization that continues to spew this falsehood in order to tarnish his image/reputation?

[aikoaiko]

74. Tough challenge.

If President Obama came out and said he would veto any new federal gun bans even if it were attached to other bills, I would honor the challenge and rescind my NRA membership.

But its not good enough to say, say in 4 years, that he hasn't banned guns yet, when it is still on his website as something he endorses. There is the matter of current gunbans too. We have, I think, reached a stalemate. Obama's inclination is to reauthorize the AWB (as his website states), but he realizes its a political nightmare that might change the Congress and possibly unseat him from the Whitehouse.

eta
I say its a tough challenge because if something works, its hard to give it up. I can promise I'd definitely give up my NRA membership if he worked to rid the nation of all federal gun bans and promise to veto and new ones. yep, that would empty the rolls of the NRA.

[gorfle]

99. There is no doubt.

I am a member of the NRA and I receive their monthly publications.

It does indeed annoy me every month to see more anti-Obama screeds. But President Obama has only himself to blame for it, because of his stance on firearms and the stance of his close allies. It has been his published stance both before and after the election to reinstate an assault weapons ban. President Obama could change the NRA into his biggest supporter overnight simply by publicly stating that he will veto any anti-firearm legislation that crosses his desk.

[virginia mountainman]

49. Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit and BULLSHIT...

There's a difference between Pro gun control and being in the Brady Campaign toady. Maybe you fuckers haven't realized that the Brady Campaign is an extreme right wing lobby group funded by Republicans? Or maybe you're Republicans straight up. Either way, this is a site for LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES, so take your anti gun shit elsewhere. Just like the pro lifers and the anti gay marriage people don't have their own forum and are not permitted to spout their shit on this site, so the same should be for the Brady Campaign folks around here.


ROFLMAO!!!!!
Isn't it amazing, you change just a couple of words, completely change the meaning, and it make more sense, and be much more truthfull than before

[X_Digger]

51. So it's 'toe the line or tombstone'?

Seriously? Who sets the line? Are you going to pick a side on every contentious issue that comes up at DU and say 'you, over there, on that side.. buh-bye!' Will there be a secret handshake to determine the 'real' democrats?

What a dull place this would be if we all parroted the same things and dissent was squashed.

How very progressive of you.

[virginia mountainman]

53. It is infuriating to me, that "so called" progressive say things like that

They would not know a REAL Progressive, even if one was to walk right up and give them a slap across the face...



Their, that is a REAL progressive.... None of this fake shit, posting around here as of late.

[friendly_iconoclast]

87. Some people are just bitter and clinging to their gun control

ISTR someone saying something like that recently.
I'm sure I'll recall who it was shortly...

[Caliman73]

89. Nice retort

I mean Eleanor couldn't have been a progressive despite her feminist views, work on civil rights during and after the presidency, and her pro Union stance...I mean she carried a firearm. We all know that supporting the right of self defense and carrying a firearm automatically makes you a Republican. :sarcasm:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

79. How about you take your bigotry and censorship elsewhere?

[pipoman]

104. Since when has restrictions on civil rights been LIBERAL OR PROGRESSIVE?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

32. Ha ha!

:rofl:

You're fucking hilarious. Owning guns is not a liberal/conservative thing.

[mudesi]

35. Again

Owning a gun and being an NRA toady are completely different things. Why don't you idiots get that?

[Celeborn Skywalker]

38. I don't see many here who are NRA toadies.

[gorfle]

100. On the NRA.

The NRA is the 800 pound gorilla on the block. No other organization defends the right to keep and bear arms as effectively as the NRA. If you want to protect your right to keep and bear arms, you ought to belong to the NRA.

[mainegreen]

45. Pro life and anti-gay marriage groups seeks to take away choice and rights.

Pro-gun rights groups seek to preserve a choice and right.

Your analogy stinks.

[virginia mountainman]

47. Defense of the Bill of RIGHTS, is a liberal position..

Restriction of a civil right is something a vile Rethug will do...


GO TO FREEPER LAND...Where you would fit right in...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

78. So you would like to censor those with a different opinion than you.

[Redneck Socialist]

82. Odd sentiment, seeing as you are the one spouting right wing talking points.

The idea that liberals/progressives are anti gun comes straight from the right. It always saddens me to see folks here are DU that have bought in the right's memes (or worse spreading them themselves.)

[AtheistCrusader]

90. Screw you pal.

I'm pro-choice, anti death penalty, pro gay marriage, not wimpy 'civil unions' full on fucking Marriage, and I speak out on it. I'm an Atheist, and I am not a member of the NRA.

I am a Democrat, and I own guns. I support ALL of our civil liberties.

Take your bigotry and shove it up your ass.

[Iktomiwicasa]

93. Pssst...

The right to keep and bear arms is progressive :)

[gorfle]

98. It is precisely this attitude...

Sorry, but where is the pro life forum? Where is the defense of traditional marriage forum? Where is the pro capital punishment forum? Is this a liberal/progressive site or not? Why do the gun nuts get a place on DU to post their bullshit talking points?

Pro NRA talking point gun people can go to freeper land where they belong.

It is precisely this attitude that drives people who would otherwise vote Democratic to vote for other parties.

The support of the Constitutional right to bear arms is not equivalent to being "pro life", or against gay marriage, or "pro capital punishment".

There are many, many people, like myself, who are pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage, and anti-capital punishment who are pro-firearm. I'm also anti-corporate welfare, pro-environment, anti-Iraq/Afghanistan-war, pro-education, and pro-national-health care.

I'm also a member of the NRA, and the NRA endorses Democrats just as easily as Republicans if they support the right to keep and bear arms. In the last election, both of my Democratic candidates besides the President were NRA-endorsed.

[krispos42]

103. You can be pro-life here, but not anti-choice.

You can be pro-death-penalty, or anti-death-penalty Etc.

In general, contemporary social democrats support:

• A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and government-owned or subsidized programs of education, health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.
  
• An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
  
• Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.
  
• Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.
  
• A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.
  
• A secular and progressive social policy, although this varies markedly in degree.
  Immigration and multiculturalism.
  
• Fair trade over free trade.
  
• A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.
  
• Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy#Ideology

[gorfle]

97. Yup!

they have well coordinated talking points and almost no one wants to argue with them. So it looks like they're the majority.

It's hard to argue with even a minority when the minority is right.

That's one of the greatest things about internet forums. You can't shout down the truth with numbers.

[L0oniX]

17. Unfair and unbalanced ...just like Fox.

There are many recent examples of civilians using guns in self-defense that don't make national news.
http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/blogger.html

[baldguy]

19. If you're in the NRA you're a supporter of the GOP.

[kctim]

29. And who do you support if you aide in a GOP win?

NRA membership pretty much doubled under Clinton, its around 4 million now. What happens if history repeats itself?
Should Dems be calling fellow Dems GOP supporters, crazies, gun-nuts, wingers, loons etc...?
Are you that confident those millions of extra votes won't be significant in the next elections?

[baldguy]

30. NRA=GOP

If you don't like that fact perhaps you should re-evaluate your political stance.

[kctim]

39. Ah, I get it

Believing in and voting on a single issue such as the 2nd Amendment is wrong, but driving people away to vote for the GOP because of that single issue is ok.

Yeah, you're probably right, those millions of extra votes probably won't have any bearing on the next elections at all.

[baldguy]

48. Some things are right, some things are wrong.

The loss of political power in the short term doesn't change that. However, people can be swayed by propaganda & lies, and the NRA is very good at that. Their primary tools are fear, hate & violence.

The question is - Will you allow yourself to be overwhelmed & defeated by the lies, or will you give up & actively support & engage the spread of fear, hate & violence - or will you work to spread what is right & true.

The GOP & NRA are on one side with the gun worshipers. We're on the other. Where are you?

[kctim]

55. Wow, that black and white huh

As almost all groups use fear as a tool to defend their cause, I will agree with you on that one. But could you show me some facts on how the NRA is inciting violence and hate? I'm not a member, but I have read their website and literature and seen no such thing.

Do you believe all who believe in the 2nd Amendment are 'gun worshippers?' If you do, what side do you want them on when its time to vote?

[friendly_iconoclast]

86. "Actively support & engage the spread of fear, hate..." Like this person here:

Spreading such gems of rationality, understanding and love as:


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x213954#213990

33. Bullshit Bullshit Bullshit
Edited on Thu Apr-09-09 12:22 PM by mudesi

There's a difference between owning a gun and being an NRA toady. Maybe you fuckers haven't realized that the NRA is an extreme right wing lobby group funded by Republicans? Or maybe you're Republicans straight up. Either way, this is a site for LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES, so take your anti gun control shit elsewhere. Just like the pro lifers and the anti gay marriage people don't have their own forum and are not permitted to spout their shit on this site, so the same should be for the NRA folks around here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x213954#213998

mudesi (1000+ posts) Thu Apr-09-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. Again
Owning a gun and being an NRA toady are completely different things. Why don't you idiots get that?

[mudesi]

36. THANK YOU

:applause:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

80. So gun owners that don't belong to the NRA are fine? Good I'm not a member.

Of course I own lots of semi-automatic weapons including an assault weapon. I'm glad you approve of me.

David

[aikoaiko]

40. I'm an NRA member -- the NRA supports Democrats when they are correct on the 2nd amendment.

Its really that simply.

[virginia mountainman]

43. Don't ruin their mantra..

By posting facts that mess up their preconceived opinions..

[baldguy]

50. For every dollor you send to the NRA 10 cents goes to Dems, 90 cents goes to the GOP.

You support the GOP.

[aikoaiko]

54. I check the little box for sending a few dollars to publicly fund elections too

Some of that goes to Republicans too.

I beg my Democratic candidates to get correct on the 2nd amendment and my US Rep has and gets NRA support.

Now if only I could get the Senatorial candidates to do the same will could kick out the Repubs from our state's federal delegation.

[baldguy]

56. The FEF supports all candidates equally.

The NRA does not.

[aikoaiko]

57. True, but the NRA appears, especially recently to apply the same rules to both parties

which is a distributive fairness, albeit not equality.

I get it though. I can see why people who are not keen on protecting 2nd amendment rights would be very unhappy with my position.

I don't like the way the NRA exaggerates and I join the small cadre of NRA members who are calling for less hyperbole and fear mongering in NRA political ads.

[baldguy]

58. I'm not "keen" on supporting the Republican Party. You are.

You helped George Bush get in the White House. Twice.

Torture
3000 American victims of terrorism
going on 5000 soldiers dead in Iraq
let the the global economy collapse
Fuck civil rights
Fuck privacy
Fuck the poor and the middle class
Fuck clean air, clean water, safe food, safe medications

Thank YOU, aikoaiko for all your help with that.


Your single-issue stupidity effects more than just one single issue. And you're dead wrong on that, too.

[aikoaiko]

60. If that is true, then you are too blame too.

If you supported gun control that reduced law abiding folks access to guns, then you too contributed to Gore and Kerry losing.

The NRA doesn't make people vote for anyone.

[baldguy]

68. Gore won in 2000, and Ohio in 2004 was mighty fishy.

Thank you for exposing the depths of you GOP indoctrination.

[aikoaiko]

72. Did it ever occur to you that if gun folks weren't avoiding a gun ban, ....

...they could have made the numbers more difficult for foul play to be successful.

The first time my pro-gun Democrat won his seat, he won by ~800 votes. A lot of my gun owning moderate friends who don't hold their party affiliation sacrosanct were willing to vote for him because of his pro-gun stance.

[yay]

88. Your hands are not clean yourself.

Why does it matter if I own a gun? How about you take away the problem rather than the tool? Why not focus on fixing the issues that cause people to resort to gun violence rather than taking the easy way out and taking away the object.

Your single issue stupidity effects more than just one single issue.

[rvablue]

62. Then how do you account for the misinformation they are spreading right now

that the Obama administration wants to take people's guns away?

You are financially contributing to that smear campaign. Hope you are proud of yourself!

[aikoaiko]

67. I am not proud of the exagerations, but the truth is Obama has endorsed banning some guns

Which is sometimes expressed as "taking away our guns". If that ban occurs, then I won't be able to acquire certain guns that are useful and desirable for self-defense (at least not in the configurations I desire). Some people say the phrase, "taking away our guns" is a lie. Is it any more of a lie than saying "take AK-47 off the streets" or "there is easy access to guns". These statements are simply rhetorical shortcuts to highlight a kernel of truth.

As far as I can tell, the anti-gun groups like the Brady Campaign exaggerate just as much.

I wish Obama would take a stand and simply say, NO MORE FEDERAL GUN BANS. And he avoids the trap.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

81. Show us an example of the misinformation they are spreading right now, let's see if you can do it.

[DrCory]

59. NRA Member Here...

And I vote straight ticket Democrat. How does that compute in your two dimensional brain?

[rvablue]

64. I fear you are the two-dimensional thinker, my friend

right now the NRA is fully engaged in a smear campaign against the Obama administration by ginning up fear that they want to take guns away from people.

There is no evidence of this. Therefore, as a card-carrying member you are financially contributing to this smear campaign.

You can pull that lever all you want for Democrats, but when the next paranoid looney-tune is sent over the edge by this false rhetoric, I'd like you to reconsider what your hard-earned money is actually being used to accomplish.

Put your money where your mouth is.

[Statistical]

69. Got a quote for that?

Provide a link to where NRA said Obama is going to ban and/or take away all guns.

Here is a link though:
http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?ID=12245

"Today in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder, 65 Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives, led by Congressman Mike Ross (D-AR), expressed their opposition to the reinstatement of the failed 1994 ban on semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines. These congressmen cited numerous studies that proved the 1994 ban was ineffective, and they strongly urged Attorney General Holder to stop his effort and instead focus on the enforcement of existing gun laws.

NRA would like to thank Congressman Ross for his leadership on this effort. We will continue to work with Members of Congress from both parties on this important issue. "

[DrCory]

70. Not Buying It...

Some of Obama's cabinet pics have a dubious record on the RKBA at best, which I'm sure you know. In addition, there is nothing hyperbolic about criticizing the administration's intent to reinstate an AWB, which I personally regard as arbitrary and a violation of the RKBA.

Oh, and by the way, you may wish to consider that people, insane or otherwise, are culpable for their own actions. The NRA has not "instructed" people to engage in mass murder. To suggest otherwise is usually a veiled attempt to silence dissent.

And yes, I do believe it is the eventual goal of many members of this current administration to severely limit the RKBA.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. So show us the lies they are putting out right now. A link to a website, flier from a mailing...

magazine article, anything to prove your assertion true.

David

[MercutioATC]

83. "No evidence"....Obama's AG has repeatedly said that he wants to reinstate the AWB.

...and this, from Change.gov.

"They also support making the expired federal Assault Weapons Ban permanent."

http://change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy_agenda/

[one-eyed fat man]

91. they are just joshin'?

From the Platform of Democratic Party 2008

"Firearms
12 We recognize that the right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition,
13 and we will preserve Americans’ continued Second Amendment right to own and use
14 firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation, but
15 we know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together
16 to enact and enforce common-sense laws and improvements, like closing the gun show
17 loophole, improving our background check system and reinstating the assault weapons
18 ban, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Acting responsibly
19 and with respect for differing views on this issue, we can both protect the constitutional
20 right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."

From Candidate Obama's website last fall

http://obama.3cdn.net/84b2062fc4a5114715_ftxamv9ot.pdf

As a long-time resident and elected official of Chicago, Barack Obama has seen the impact of fully automatic
weapons in the hands of criminals. Thus, Senator Obama supports making permanent the expired federal
Assault Weapon Ban.

In the past month, both the Secretary of State and the Attorney General have joined Senator Dianne Feinstein in claiming the Assault Weapons Ban needs to be reinstated to keep Mexican drug cartels from getting Rocket Propelled Grenades.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/26/2009-03-26_secretary_of_state_hillary_clintons_call.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=6960824&page=1

Let me see, party platform calls for a ban, President calls for a ban as a candidate, high administration officials call for a ban. They put it in writing, cover the airwaves in deceptive soundbites about "RPGs and machinguns" yammering about the need to reinstate the "expired ban on assault weapons," and that is not "ginning up fear that they want to take guns away from people."

They keep telling me they want my stuff and you say I am wrong to believe them? Who is the delusional looney-tune?

[Terry in Austin]

28. Circular firing squad

The phrase is taking on a whole new meaning.

The American populace, armed and dangerous... to itself.

[virginia mountainman]

41. Problem is...

Their is absolutely nothing reasonable, about a BAN...

And actually, their was a Poll released the other day, showing that people are becoming more pro gun, even after VA tech....

All stricter gun control tends to do, is disarm the honest civilians.

[Pullo]

76. and get Democrats booted from office

.....you forgot that one

[aikoaiko]

52. As a gun owner, I am open to suggestions to reduce gun violence that don't deny any civil rights.

In other posts, I've made some suggests that would reduce gun violence by reducing the amount of guns getting into the hands of the wrong people.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=211878&mesg_id=211908

[FudaFuda]

92. Does it even matter that the homicide rate in the USA is lower than its been in about 40 years?!?

The OP and most of those inclined to passing more gun control are coming from the premise that our society is off-the-fucking-wall dangerous due to gun crazies running around murdering willy-nilly. Does anyone even care about the actual numbers? The per capita murder rate in the USA right now is lower than its been since the mid-60's or before, and nothing like it was in the 70's, 80's, and early 90's ...



Here's the starting page for an interesting DOJ walkthrough of homicide trends in the USA.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/overview.htm

If you get in there and look around you'll find that the

per capita murder rate in the USA in 1960 was 5.1 per 100,000

per capita murder rate in the USA in 1966 was 5.6 per 100,000

per capita murder rate in the USA in 2005 was 5.6 per 100,000

but

per capita murder rate in the USA in 1980 was 10.2 per 100,000


Despite last month being a weird one for spree killing, and despite the sensationalized reporting on the issue in the MSM right now, we're actually back to a homicide rate this country hasn't seen for over 40 years.

[friendly_iconoclast]

101. This is "forced teaming", straight out of 'The Gift of Fear'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gift_of_Fear

Forced Teaming. This is when a person tries to pretend that he has something in common with a person and that they are in the same predicament when that isn't really true.


http://www.kidpower.org/ARTICLES/boundary-lowering-tactics.html


FORCED TEAMING. ... It is important to notice when someone with whom you have not chosen to be connected with talks as if you are together. Be careful when people try to connect by identifying you with them as an “us” and to separate you from others who are “them”. Remember what your relationship with this person truly is and is not....

[Tejas]

102. "I Didn't Really Think" (agreed)

Like doctor jazz said, let's just burn the whole BOR, would that make you happy?

By the way, what is your solution for all of the other crimes that are committed 24/7 that DO NOT involve firearms?

[umccoyw]

105. havent heard of the threats

but will more gun control stop them? if they are threatening violence then if more gun contrl was enacted they wouldnt follow it. the only people who follow gun control are law biding citizens and gun control makes it more difficult for themselves to defend themselves against the violent criminals