That's it I'm going to start writing letters on the NICS situation.

[Tim01]

This seems like a no brainer. Nobody wants felons or other miscellaneous badguys buying guns,nobody. True enough there are illegal guns available, but I don't want to sell my guns to somebody who might be a badguy. Either making the NICS available to everybody or putting a "allowed to buy guns" mark on a drivers license would make things so easy. It would dry up a lot of the gun trafficing we hear about.

Are there any gun guys who see a problem with this?

[slackmaster]

1. I like the idea of stigmatizing driver's licenses too

Either mark them as "OK" to buy a gun, or some other mark indicating "not OK".

There are those who feel it would be an invasion of privacy, but since driving is a privilege and not a right, it would be just one more condition on top of a whole pile of them that we already have.

[northzax]

3. then they'll use another form of ID

like a passport.

and no, you can't mark people's licenses to say, basically, 'convicted felon/stalker/wife beater' that's just not going to fly. but maybe we could make them wear some sort of marking on their jackets, hmmm, maybe a big red F! yeah, that's the ticket...

[slackmaster]

6. That would not fly in my state

The only acceptable forms of ID here are a state-issued driver's license or non-driver ID (basically the same thing), or a military ID with paperwork to prove that you are stationed here. Passports and foreign driver's licenses are absolutely not acceptable.

[northzax]

9. because the state wants the money

did you know that in 14 states a US passport is not legal proof of age to buy alcohol? a passport. I bet they would take a passport with paperwork to prove you are a resident, if you really needed to.

[gorfle]

34. It would not work that way.

and no, you can't mark people's licenses to say, basically, 'convicted felon/stalker/wife beater' that's just not going to fly.

The way I envisioned this plan, when you go to get a driver's license or state-issued ID, you would have the OPTION to OPT OUT of being approved to own a firearm. If you opted out, your license or ID would not have the approval mark on it.

So if you saw a license or ID with no mark, it would not necessarily mean they were a felon or mentally ill. It could simply mean they opted out of the approval process. No harm, no foul.

[Statistical]

5. Driver's license is used for many other things.

As proof of identity, employment, cashing a check, etc.

Marking "no OK" on a DL is basically saying:
I am a felon or mentally crazy.

If we are going to publish peoples felony status why not just cut to the chase.

Branding iron in shape of an F to the forehead.

If gun buyer has giant F on his forhead you can't sell him a gun.

[slackmaster]

8. Peoples' felony status is already available in public records searches

I'm looking for a realistic solution that doesn't involve having government keep track of every firearm that every person owns. There are fewer people than there are firearms, firearms are smaller and more mobile; therefore the difficulty of tracking them is much lower.

Since licenses in most states now have magnetic stripes, the OK/not OK status could be kept in a data area that is not permitted to be accessed by banks, merchants, etc. It doesn't have to be printed on the card (although that wouldn't work for private sales.)

[northzax]

12. well, how about people actually conduct background checks?

or is that too much of a hassle?

here's the potential problem with your plan. drivers licenses, as a general rule, are good for a long time. in DC, for instance, adults get them for five years. in New Mexico, they're good until you turn 60. (or is it 65?) a lot can happen in that time frame, and if you knew your license was going to be tagged, you'd probably wait as long as possible to get a new one. wouldn't it be just as easy for states to keep a record of anyone allowed to purchase firearms privately? you could pay five bucks to get on the registry, and any private dealer could call an 800 number, or go to a website, and check your status. no one would know how many guns you have, and if you did something to eliminate your eligibility (although let's be honest, if felons can vote, they should have other constitutional rights as well) it's easy to simply drop you from the list.

[slackmaster]

15. The state can recall your license if you have a disqualifying event

:hi:

My favorite plan is to make NICS available to the public. It would require safeguards to prevent misuse.

[rrneck]

24. Dupe Sorry nt

[Furyataurus]

10. Or how about making it an option

Those who don't have a CHL can have DPS do an NICS check on them and if they do "clear" they can have a mark imprinted on their DL that will be good for at least 2 years. If they don't want the mark then they don't get one.

[gorfle]

35. Nope!

Marking "no OK" on a DL is basically saying:
I am a felon or mentally crazy.

If we are going to publish peoples felony status why not just cut to the chase.

Branding iron in shape of an F to the forehead.

Nope! You don't mark "NOT OK" on the DL. You mark "OK" on the DL, and you allow people the option to opt-out of the firearm approval process.

So if you see a DL without the OK, it does not necessarily mean they are a criminal or crazy. They could have simply opted out.

[Tim01]

13. Put the mark on the back of the card

The only people who get the stamp on their ID are the people who go to the DMV and ask to get one. When you get your drivers license they can ask you if you want to apply for the 'ok' stamp. It doesn't cost you anything.

[Furyataurus]

2. I don't see a problem

I'm not opposed to it. I buy my firearms new anyways, but my CHL does exempt me from the NICS check. I do wish that certain states would get rid of the "waiting period" though, esp like Cali. 10 day waiting period!!!!!!


How do other states do it that have mandatory NICS checks for even private sellers. I would think the hard/difficult part would be finding a dealer to call NICS that doesn't charge a lot just for the call.

[slackmaster]

11. Dealers in California are restricted by law in what they can charge for a private transfer

It still adds up to a considerable amount of money when you buy out someone's collection as I did several years ago. They can charge the full fee amount for each firearm transferred.

I don't really blame them for charging the maximum allowed. The paperwork is a real PITA. That experience was the last straw leading me to get my C&R FFL.

[Furyataurus]

22. My condolences for you living in Nazifornia

[Statistical]

27. If nationwide all private sales/trades had to go through FFL same thing would happen

All FFL would raise price and eventually a cap would need to be placed and every FFL would charge the cap. Why not?

Any system to ensure private sales don't involve felons should not require an FFL.

[L0oniX]

4. The only problem is the cost. It just cost me $117 for a CWP app and finger printing and..

another $120 for a mandatory gun safety and CWP law training course. I guess it would create some jobs though.

[Furyataurus]

7. My CHL cost me

$140 to the state, and $90 for the class and I will have had it for two years this August.

[jmg257]

14. How about a federal Firearm Card? Shall issue to 'everyone' at age 18,

after an NICS check ($15 app fee?). Revoked immediately upon conviction of a violent felony, mental health declaration(?), etc. Judge's discretion at arrest for violent crime, order of protection etc.

Maybe the card is state issued, but applicable nationwide. Photo, DOB (handgun eligible at 21?), other pertinent info.

Show the card, pay for gun, away you go. No card no gun. Gun possession with no valid card available = 2-5yr mandatory per weapon.

[Tim01]

16. I like the shall issue.

People wouldn't surrender their cards though. Bad guys would just keep using the card until they got caught with a gun.
It would need to be renewed every year.

[Statistical]

18. No renewal.

I would vote/lobby against any system that has renewal.
Renewal would have fee and eventually anti-gunners would jack the fee.
Detroit has license system w/ annual renewal & $100 renewal fee.

No way.

Instead why not:
Card has an ID # on it.
Have a 1-800 number & website that allows seller to enter ID #.
System comes back w/ name of person (can be matched against name on card & photo ID) and validation status.

Card is FOR LIFE. Period. Never expires.
One time fee like $15

Damaged/lost/stolen cards can be replaced (new ID#, old# is invalid) for $15.

Of course system would be optional.
Don't want to get "easy check" card you can use FFL & normal NICS check system.

[Tim01]

19. So, I come to you to buy a gun.

We are at your house. I give you my card. You call the system and punch in my number. It says I am good to go and that's that. If I have been involved in something that causes problems, the system says it can not validate me at this time.

Something like that?

[northzax]

20. yep

and it gives the seller an authorization code for his/her paperwork. that way if there's a problem, the seller can prove he/she accessed the system and did due diligence. if you can't prove you accessed the system, you're pretty much screwed. you shouldn't be selling a gun in a place where you don't have a phone anyway.

[Statistical]

21. Yeah pretty much.

I mean exact details would need to be worked out but that is the idea.

Also key point for you is the system gives you an authorization code (just like CC system).
You record that in your paper work and if the system was in error, person lied, figured out a way to trick the system (i.e. stole card, and got fake ID to match it) you are covered.

Authorization Code would be a "good faith" effort on your part.

For safety you might even ask the guy to give you the ID over the phone so you can verify he is legit before you setup a sale.

[jmg257]

29. No we have that now. Cough up the card 'upon court order' or go/stay in jail

[Statistical]

32. I lost it. It was stolen.

Any system that relies on a criminal turning in a "get gun w/ no background check" card is doomed to failure.

[jmg257]

28. No way. TAKE the card - how hard is that?

You don't think someone going to jail can be made to turn over their card?

And someone not going to jail who refuses can then be sent to jail, until they do.

[Statistical]

33. Once again. That is no level useful validation.

If you get your driver's licensed revoke the court does take it but they are not STUPID enough to rely on that alone.
A cop doesn't look at your ID and go "yup looks real so no need to run it in. if it was revoked the court would have taken it by now".
What does the cop do? He calls it in.

Even though the court takes/destroys a revoked license the cop still calls it in to VERIFY IT.

How would you handle lost or stolen NICS cards. Losing you card is guaranteed jail sentence? For life?
People do legitimately lose items or have them stolen. Or simply misplace them. If someones NICS card is missing you going to have 3-4 LEO spend better part of a day trying to find it?

Of course courts/police will take a revoked card.
However relying on existence of card alone is not a useful level of security.
Without a way to verify validity of card at any point in time (just like LEO calls in a driver's license) the system would be useless within days.

[Statistical]

17. Getting better.

First:
The card would need some sort of ID # on it and there would need to be a system (internet & 1-800 number) where a private seller or dealer can enter the ID # and verify it is valid. Otherwise someone could use an invalid card (i.e commited felony after getting card and didn't destroy card) and system is useless.

Second:
When verifying ID the system would give buyer a verification code (which validates that at time of validation person was a legal buyer). Buyer can record code in records and that protects buyer if later person commits a felony or system was in error. Kind of like an authorization code on Credit Card transaction.

Third:
Card should be for life (or until revoked) no annual fees to harass gun owners.
Lost card should be available easily for modest fee (say $15).

Fourth:
Lastly I would want it entirely OPTIONAL. Call it "easy check card".
Not everyone wants to be in a govt db.
Card would be for buying weapons ONLY.

If I don't want to use Easy Check card I could still buy through an FFL (using existing system).
If I want to do a person to person sale and don't have "easy check card" we need to use FFL.

Easy check card would simply allow safe & legal sales between private individuals.
Possession is up to states. VA requires no license for possession and I don't want that changed.

If this system or similar system incorporates safeguards like this I have no problem.
This would be "sensible gun legislation".

[rrneck]

25. Best I've seen

The secret is to route sensitive information through the buyer and not through the seller. That way each individual has control of the process and can even "ping" the system from time to time to verify they are cool. All you need is a blind verification number to present to the seller and they can check with the system.

Hell, if I can buy a book with one click of the mouse at Amazon, surely the federal govenment could come up with something. (If we push on it hard enough.)

[jmg257]

30. But every time you call in the ID#, someone somewhere knows X just bought another gun.

Like what we now have.

It wouldn't be up to the criminal to destroy the card, the state takes it upon conviction/court order.

I do like further verification though, and the card ID for seller's records purposes.

Hmmm..

[Statistical]

31. Calling in the ID # is no guarantee of a sale.

Weapon is not liked to ID #.

You could call the 1-800 to verify status of your own ID#.

So at best the govt will know someone wanted to verify buying status of John Doe.
They have no idea if sale ever went through, or if so how many weapons, or if John Doe ever sold those in future.

It literally could be this simple

Call 1-800-GUN-CHECK
"Please enter ID#"
<you enter in ID# for card>
"ID# xxx-xxxx is valid as of 04/10/2009. This ID is registered to John Doe of Chesapeake, VA
Please verify a photo ID before commencing transaction.
Authorization number follows: A29-12345."

For an invalid card.
"ID # xxx-xxxx is not valid for an easy check transaction. Please have owner contact BATFE for more information.
Thank you".

[Jackson1999]

23. Why not go to your local gun shop....

And pay them $20 to handle the transfer, NICs check?

[Tim01]

26. A few reasons.

It takes time, money, and has the result of registration. Lots of people don't want a paper trail of every single gun in civilian hands, I agree.

[quiller4]

36. It would be nice if it were regularly available to gun shop owners

I'm not joking. NICS relies on old technology and is regularly overwhelmed by volume of requests and goes down. Then there is the problem about updating the data base. Most states are woefully behind on submitting data re individuals who have lost gun rights because of convictions.

If we want an instant check system to work, we have to fund it. The system has so many holes in it today because we haven't been willing to spend the money required.

[yay]

37. I'd be ok with that.

Just putting a mark "ok to buy guns" on EVERY eligible person makes sense and makes life easy.