the "civilian AK47" is a deer rifle dressed up, so says John Lott

[ensho]

that when americans buy a AK47 or assault weapon that its not really like the military AK47/assault weapon. it really is a hunting rifle dressed up to look assaultish.

he told us that this morning on Wash. Journal.

he is a gun nut who was spouting all these gun stats to prove his point that a gun in every pocket brings crime down.

his pants were on fire.

[no limit]

1. He has a point on the AK-47 thing.

They are not fully automatic like military grade ones are.

[obiwan]

62. It is my understanding that a moderately clever person ...

...can make the AK-47 fully automatic.

[Raskolnik]

67. You have been misinformed.

Converting a semi-automatic rifle to fully automatic, when that rifle was not designed for such, is not at all easy. The urban legends of "converter kits" or manuals showing which firing pin to file down being sold at gun shows are just that.

To be sure, you can buy kits and manuals purporting to convert semi- to full-auto, but one check of your spam folder should convince you that not everything works as advertised.

[rl6214]

76. Your understanding

IS WRONG

[paulsby]

130. then please explain why, in 20 yrs of law enforcement work

i have NEVER seen a converted semi-auto of ANY type, let alone an ak-47.

i have seen HUNDREDS of guns. not ONE conversion. and i've seen plenty of civilian ak's.

[YOY]

2. To the gungeon in 3, 2, 1...

n.t.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

98. That is where posts like this belong.

[rfranklin]

3. Sometimes I need a 30 round clip to bring down a deer...

They just won't stay down.

[YOY]

6. and comparitively unreliable aim next to a regular hunting rifle.

The 30 bullet clip is totally needed!

[Kaleva]

30. What's a "regular" hunting rifle?

[east texas lib]

102. Depends on what is being hunted...

In my neck of the woods Winchester lever-action 30-30's and Remington scoped bolt action .243's,
.270's and 30-'06's are favorites of the "regular" deer hunting set.

[benEzra]

80. Not if you're comparing it to a .30-30 Winchester, which it resembles.

My civilian AK can stay on an 18" steel ram at 200 yards, the longest distance available at my local range, with cheap imported 122-grain plinking ammunition. With quality hunting loads (154-grain softpoints), it is plenty accurate for deer hunting within 100-125 yards, and beyond 125 yards lacks the energy to humanely kill a deer anyway.

I currently don't hunt, but if I ever do take up hunting, it will be with my AK, shown below in hunting configuration with 4x scope and 5-round magazine:

[TXRAT2]

145. Wouldn't have either for hunting.

Both are underpowered by my standards.

[ManiacJoe]

146. It all depends on what you are hunting.

For the smaller white-tail deer, the .30-30 and AK are perfectly fine. For the bigger mule/black-tail deer, you would probably want something bigger. For elk and bigger game you would definitely need something bigger, like a .30-06 or .308.

[TXRAT2]

148. Not even for Whitetails.

My standards require a minimum of 2000 ft-lbs at 100 yards minimum. And I would have to say they both display a trajectory of a poorly thrown rock. You can hunt with one if you chose, but not me. I'll stick with my Weatherby's.

[benEzra]

155. You're in Texas, though.

Around here (eastern NC, medium-sized deer, thick pine woods, often short sight lines), I know people who hunt deer with buckshot. A .30-30 or 7.62x39mm is certainly suitable for small to medium sized deer inside 100 yards with 150-ish grain softpoints at 2000 fps or so.

[ManiacJoe]

156. Hunting white-tail deer in Maine was the same way.

[TXRAT2]

159. You're in Texas, though.

Fair enough! 200 plus yard shots are pretty common in this open country. Hell our fence posts are taller than our tree's.

[Iktomiwicasa]

157. minor quibble

while blacktail deer are a subspecies of mulie, they are quite small, half the weight or less of a Rocky Mountain mule deer.

[ManiacJoe]

160. Thanks. Learn something new every day...

[Tejas]

97. Correct, the sight radius somewhat too short - nt

[slackmaster]

11. Does your state allow that?

Mine restricts hunting arms to five rounds. (And five-round magazines are available for AKs specifically for that purpose.)

[Kaleva]

24. In Michigan, a 5 round magazine is the max for hunting

There isn't much of a difference between deer hunting with a semi-auto version of the AK-47 and a lever action 30-30. Neither is considered to be high powered or very accurate.

[slackmaster]

56. Hunters have told me the 30-30 has probably taken more deer than any other round

It's been available and popular for a very long time.

[Kaleva]

60. It's a good choice where I live.

The thick woods, hills and gullies make long range shots uncommon. Plus the lighter weight of the 30-30 is a bonus when walking up and down the hills and gullies.

[east texas lib]

103. Having never fired an AK type weapon...

I cannot attest to their accuracy or power. However, I have seen someone with a scoped 30-30
regularly hit bottle caps at 100yds. I thought that was pretty fair shootin'.

[TXRAT2]

147. Texas has no magazine restrictions

[rrneck]

13. They probably won't

if you shoot them with a .223. You need a thirty caliber bullet for deer. And those are available in both the standard and "scary" configruations as well.

[Ready4Change]

95. That's my thought too.

The rounds typically used in an AK-47 (or the more likely to be purchased AK-47 look alike knockoffs) will have about half of the muzzle energy of the rounds hunters prefer to use hunting deer.

link: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

In numbers, the 7.63x39 round most often used in AK-47 like rifles typically has muzzle energy of around 1500 ft lbs.

Whereas the 30-06 (prefered by hunters I talk to) puts out around 2,800 ft lbs.

The 30-30 mentioned above comes out around 1,800 to 1,900, depending on load.

BTW, the rounds used in American M-16/AR-15 rifles comes out around 1,300 ft lbs. (Not sure that's right. I'm looking for another source.)

Now, I'm sure some are thinking that CAN'T be right, because military rifles are supposed to be MORE powerful, right?

Not right. The rounds they use are sufficient to provide a battlefield kill, but aren't overpowered. That makes each round lighter, and that means the soldiers can carry more rounds, increasing how much they can fire in combat.

But when hunting deer you are usually required by hunting laws to use firearms with a restricted number of rounds (5-8 seems typical.) 30 round clips are frowned on at least, and illegal more often than not. So, since you are carrying fewer bullets, they can be more powerful, and that increases the odds of a quicker kill.

[paulsby]

131. actually not

most military ammo/gun configurations are designed to WOUND vs. kill, iow not to provide a battlefield kill, but a disabling injury.

[Junkdrawer]

43. +1 Best comment of the thread...

:rofl:

[formercia]

45. And AP tracer to cook it on the fly.

Good luck in collecting your brass to reload.....

[salguine]

49. My Dad—who is a hunter—always said, "A good hunter should be able to

go into the woods with two bullets, and come back with a deer and one unused bullet."

[benEzra]

81. Yup. Why do you think you can't do that with a civilian AK?

Anything a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 can do, a civilian AK can do just as well.

[obiwan]

63. Find another hobby.

[fascisthunter]

64. use a grenade next time...

kill and tenderized meat! :sarcasm:

[spin]

86. Sorry most state hunting laws have limits on the number of rounds...

you can have in the rifle while hunting (usually 5 rounds). Five round magazines are available online and at gun shows.

From the Florida Hunting Regulations:

Prohibited methods and equipment for taking game

Centerfire semi-automatic rifles having magazine capacities of more than five rounds
http://myfwc.com/docs/RecreationActivities/08-09HuntingRegulationsHandBook.pdf

[gorfle]

105. Sigh.

Sometimes I need a 30 round clip to bring down a deer...

I am so tired of this meme.

First of all, most, if not all, states regulate the size of magazine that can be used for hunting different kinds of game.

I have a 5-round magazine for my semi-automatic AK-47, and I have 30-round magazines for it.

Guess which one I use for hunting?

[SteveM]

137. My goodness: someone who shouldn't have a gun and shouldn't hunt (nt)

[Occam Bandage]

4. That is true.

An "assault rifle" that you would buy at a gun show is not anything like a military weapon except in looks. It is a semiautomatic hunting rifle made to look like a Scary Military Gun.

[sammythecat]

50. Really?

This is an honest question here. I really don't know, but I was under the impression that an AK-47 bought at a gun show was indeed a scary military gun but modified in such a way that it functions only in a semi-automatic mode suitable for hunting.

While I'm at it, let me ask you another question you might be able to answer. Is it easy, or hard, to undo the modification done to a fully automatic weapon to make it semi-auto? Is it just a matter of replacing the sear, or is there much more involved? I'm thinking, and hope, that it's more involved than just replacing a single part. Again, honest question, I really don't know. We're probably on the same side in this issue in that I have a problem with the misuse and misunderstanding of the term "assault rifle".

[jmg257]

54. Finding the specifics can be daunting, but generally enough changes have been made so it is not easy

"The hammer can be slightly different, as hammers made specifically for semi-autos don't have the notch for the auto sear. The sear/disconnector is slightly different in a semi auto as well, some material has been removed. There are also several other parts that have been ground down to keep someone from just dropping in the FA parts, as well as certain pieces that are built differently so as not to accept FA parts. It's not just a couple things, it's quite a few."

Guns like Thompsons and ARs have different receivers then full auto originals, plus a bunch of other parts. Keeps one from just 'dropping in' FA parts.


I am not too familiar with specifics, others here know way more.

[paulsby]

90. i have never seen a converted semi to full-auto gun

in 20 yrs of law enforcement.

however hard it is to convert, they are clearly NOT common.

i've seen/seized etc. hundreds of guns.

[X_Digger]

55. Nah, not easily convertible..

In either '86 or '94, the rules changed and now the BATFE treats any gun that is considered 'easily convertible' as thought it already had been converted (thus making the sale / transfer of these guns fall under the very strict 1934 National Firearms Act.)

A competent machinist with plans and access to quality tool steel and the means to case harden it could do it, but then again, if you have those kind of skills, you could build a much simpler machinegun from scratch far easier. (not to mention the 10 year vacation in club fed that would get you.)

re: the ak-47 knock-offs. Ex-com-bloc countries (mostly) produce non-automatic versions of the AK-pattern rifle in different configurations for the export market. Some have thumbhole stocks, some look like traditional hunting rifles, some a blend. Point is, they use different components than the fully automatic gun it's based on.

It's not like a Cadillac Escalade with or without a DVD player, it's more like a Cadillac Escalade with a DVD player versus a Chevy Avalance without a DVD player.

[TheWraith]

96. It's not a modification.

It's not like there's a switch flipped inside it to turn an automatic into a semi-auto, or that these are military weapons repurposed for civilian use. They're built that way from the start. It's like the difference between a real Rolex and a $20 imitation.

Theoretically, if you had a full-auto sear which was compatible with a semi-auto gun, yeah you could: but semi-autos and full autos are deliberately designed to not have compatible parts. Here in the US, any gun which is easily converted to full-auto is considered to be full auto already. It's also illegal to possess a full auto sear and a gun into which it can be installed without the full National Firearms Act licensing that real live machine guns get.

[villager]

5. sure, when you want to shred the deer in advance..

... of getting it dressed, later...

[Raskolnik]

27. Of course you know that most deer rifles are more powerful than a "civilian AK-47," right?

Of course you did.

[villager]

42. hence the reason most hunters suggest not using AK-47's to hunt?

Which I assume you -- angry, gun-loving Raskolnik -- knew as well?

[Raskolnik]

52. Which is why comments about "shredding" deer w/ an AK47 lookalike are so silly.

And you must have me confused with someone else. I'm actually a pretty happy fella, and I don't think I would characterize my feelings towards guns as "love," but since you've clearly taken a psych 101b course in your life, I suppose you are the expert. But, if you could point out an example of me being angry with you, or me displaying my "gun-loving," I would greatly appreciate you doing so.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

99. That's some funny shit.

:rofl:

[Statistical]

119. Only an anti could "logcially" defend both sides of same coin

AK-47 will "shred a deer"
AK-47 is not powerful enough to hunt deer with.

BAN EM BAN EM

BAN EM because they will "shred a deer" and if that doesn't work BAN EM because they are not true hunting rifles, they are not powerful enough to kill deer.

Other funny (well not funny more like sad) thing is that antis never understand that caliber != weapon.

The original AK-47 was 7.62x39mm SOVIET which is a relatively underpowered cartridge.
The original AR-15 was 5.56x45mm NATO which also is not a powerful cartridge.

However the AK-47 platform is available in dozens of calibers as is the AR-15 platform.

From another forum:

AR-15, without bolt modification
.17 Remington
.20 Tactical
.204 Ruger
.221 Fireball
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.223 Remington (5.56x45mm)
.223 Remington Ackley Improved
6x45mm
6mm Whisper
6.5mm Whisper
7mm Whisper
7mm TCU
.300 Whisper (.300/221, .300 Fireball)
.338 Whisper

AR-15, with bolt modification
223 WSSM
5.45x39mm (.21 Genghis)
243 WSSM
6mm PPC
6mm BR Remington
6.5mm PPC
6.5mm Grendel
25 WSSM
6.8x43mm SPC
.30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (6.8x43mm case trimmed to 41mm and necked up to .308; the 6.8mm version of the .300 Whisper)
7.62x39mm
.357 Auto
.458 SOCOM
.50 Action Express
.50 Beowulf

AR-15 using a simple blowback operation
.17 HMR
.22 LR
.22 WMR
9x19mm
40S&W
10mm Auto
45ACP

[Kaleva]

61. Depends on where you live and what you are hunting.

I wouldn't use a semi-auto AK-47 for deer hunting just as I wouldn't use a lever action 30-30 where long range shots are the norm but either would be a good choice in wooded, hilly areas where a long range shot would be the exception.

[benEzra]

82. If you forsee shots longer than 125 yards, yes, you'd need something more powerful.

But anything you can hunt with a Winchester .30-30, you can hunt with a civilian AK, which is the .30-30's ballistic twin. Here in eastern NC, .30-30/7.62x39mm are reasonable choices; out West where you might be looking at 200-yard shots, not so much.

[rrneck]

7. What stats

caused his pants to ignite?

[ensho]

17. you will have to listen to him, he spat out stats at the speed of an

AK47 civilian or military. really, it was sorta amazing.

c-span.org

Washington Journal

they have radio and video of it.

[Winterblues]

19. More guns means less crime...Look to Somalia or Iraq for that answer.

:shrug:

[Caliman73]

46. Yes, that is a great comparison...

Look at Somalia, a country that has ZERO law and order, no effective government,and some of the worst poverty in the world. You are completely correct in attributing the problems in that country with firearms ownership because other than that factor nothing else would create the condition of that country. :sarcasm:

Then you say Iraq, well yes, another paragon of stability but for the presence of guns. I mean if you can look past the fact that the region has been engaged in religious war for 1000 years, that the country was cobbled together out of groups of people with a deep animosity for each other, that it was held together by a brutal dictator for decades, that the populations poverty and illiteracy rate are extremely high, and that the country has been occupied by a foreign invader (from their perspective) for the last 6 years. If you can ignore the effects of all those factors and more, then your statement correlating guns with crime is completely accurate...:sarcasm:

I don't know if more guns equals less crime. Some statistics bear that out. Other statistics challenge that notion. I know that less guns does not necessarily mean less crimes, it just means potentially less crimes with guns. Though that may be appealing to people who are so vehemently opposed to guns, it does little to actually make a society safer. To make society safer you need to have a stable government, fairly equal and consistent economic opportunity, healthy social structures, and a connection by citizens to their fellow citizen. Perhaps the US has lost that balance on those issues and we need to address them so that we can decrease the level of violence in our society. The countries you want to use as models are in complete social and political chaos. Why not use Switzerland instead? They have a very high per capita gun ownership rate and have much less of a problem with violence than the US. What are they doing differently?

[Statistical]

120. Well written

Crime is caused by:
poverty
lack of social safety net
poor enforcement of existing laws
drug trade
lack of good mental health resources.

If we tackled those issues (as other countries have) we could reduce crime.
There will always be crime. There will always be mass killings. We can ensure there is less though.

However looking at that list it is a bunch of hard to solve complex & expensive problems.
Easier (but less useful) to cry "BAN EM".

BAN EM is the left wing version of DRILL BABY DRILL. Short sighted but pointless.

[rl6214]

77. Or maybe Switzerland or Norway?

I can play that game too.

[paulsby]

91. or switzerland

an actual functioning democracy.

they have a lower crime rate than the UK, and a significantly lower violent crime rate

and practically every adult household has a full auto rifle in it.

[slackmaster]

8. Eh, he's not lying but it's really more like a combat rifle that has been neutered

So as to not fall under the authority of the National Firearms Act.

The real question is: What would a pirate use?

[-..__...]

31. When blunderbusses are outlawed...

Only ----- will have -----

(fill in the blanks).

:smoke:

[Kaleva]

59. They wouldn't use an assault weapon

They much prefer an actual assault rifle.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

9. It's actually less powerful than a deer rifle

[Kaleva]

25. Depends on what deer rifle you are comparing it to.

The power and accuracy of the very popular lever action 30-30 I suspect is very similar to the semi-auto AK-47.

[Edweird]

37. It's similar to a .30-30 one of the most (historically) popular deer rounds.

[formercia]

47. Unfortunately, good quality 7.62x39 hunting ammunition is scarce

and expensive. Norma is good but try finding it in bumfuck USA.

A good hunter needs only one round. Auto-getem is for amateurs and idiots.

The 7.62x39 has a .310 diameter bullet, so reloading with commonly available .308 bullets is iffy unless you shoot it in a Ruger Mini-30, which is bored .308.

[yay]

75. .311 NT

[benEzra]

83. The new Wolf 154-grain softpoint load is reportedly very good

and quite accurate.

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. Technically, he's nearly right

An actual Kalashnikov is a select-fire military weapon. The version available for civilian purchase is semi-automatic; there is no functional difference between a semi-auto 'AK-47' and a semi-auto hunting rifle (although the 'AK-47' will be less inherently accurate due to a combination of shorter barrel length and the ballistic characteristics of the Russian 7.62x39mm round).

[SteelPenguin]

12. Canadians have lots of guns

The Swiss have the most guns per capita than anyone else, even us.

Our problem isn't guns. Our problem is that our culture creates right wing nutjobs who shoot up schools, banks, parks, police, etc. We need to figure out what it is that causes THAT, and fix that. otherwise the nutjobs will always find a way to get other guns.

I guess what I'm saying is that we could make assault weapons illegal, handguns illegal, have strict requirements on gun ownership, and safety ones, and people would still get those guns illegally and shoot up a church.

We need to address the cause not the symptom, imho.

But yeah nobody needs an AK-47, military fully auto, or otherwise.

[paulsby]

93. the issue is not

'rightwing nutjobs' with guns.

statistically speaking, they are less of a concern than your garden variety dirtbag criminal, most of whom are politically apathetic.

your average gangbanger, armed robber etc. is not a political creature.

i've been in shootouts and seen dozens of shooting victims.

you are correct that the problem is cultural, but it is not wackjob political ideologues (those are the exception), it is gangbangers, and garden variety criminal scumbags

[ThomWV]

14. He was exactly correct

Its not a 'gun nut' claim, its is in fact a valid claim. Have you ever seen those VW fiberglass body kits that they used to sell for do it yourself nuts to build a car? They looked like race cares but were just dressed up VWs, well, the AKs you see refereed to on the streets are the same thing. They are not the AK-47 assault rifle of warfare, they are look-alikes at best.

[Statistical]

15. Crazy thing is he is right.

AK47 & AR15 sold in retail gun shops & gunshows are semi-automatic (one trigger pull = one bullet) rifles firing a relatively weak 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm cartridge.

The only difference between a well made AK47 clone and a semi-auto "hunting rifle" is:
Hunting rifle looks "less scary" (often w/ wood stock and traditional grip) and usually is chambered in a much MORE LETHAL round.

[Raskolnik]

16. Well, he's not really right about those "civilian AK-47's."

They are usually significantly less powerful than an actual deer rifle.

[Kaleva]

66. There are many rifles used for deer hunting

Some are more powerful then an semi-auto AK-47 while others are about the same. On a side note, it's illegal to hunt deer in parts of lower Michigan with a rifle such as as semi-auto AK-47 because it's too powerful. One can only use a shotgun or handgun in those restricted areas.

[Raskolnik]

69. Point taken, but the fact remains that a good number of deer hunting rifles

are significantly more powerful than a civilian AK47 lookalike.

[guitar man]

18. he's essentially correct

it wouldn't be my first choice to bag a deer with, but yeah, it's just a semi-auto rifle with a different type of stock and fittings than you'd see on an average hunting rifle.

[derby378]

20. IMHO, Lott doesn't need to buy into this whole "deer rifle" malarkey

The Second Amendment doesn't restrict the right of the people to keep and bear only arms deemed suitable for hunting. This is no time to be coy.

If I were on Washington Journal instead of Lott, I'd point to the sheer reliability and versatility of the AK design. It may not be as pinpoint accurate as an AR, but it will perform in heat, cold, submerged in water or sand, etc. That means something to anyone who's had to carry a rifle for self-preservation in the woods, in the desert, or in terra incognito for an extended period of time.

[SidDithers]

21. We're all going to need guns...

for the Zombie uprising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCM9RDkHSEM

Sid

[ensho]

22. do the americans that buy civilian AK47s know they are dressed up?

and less powerful.

is the buyer more interested in show and tell?

[jody]

29. Can you tell which of the following are misnamed "assault weapons"?

[jmg257]

39. Probably. There may some 'mystique' involved, but likely

it has to do with reliability, cost, availability/price of ammo, and abundance of accessories.

The quality usually just isn't on par with typical ARs, etc., and more recently they have been much cheaper.

[Caliman73]

51. Typically, yes about the dress up. Not sure about show and tell..

American firearms owners tend to understand that the civilian versions of any rifle used by the military are going to function differently than the military version. The differences lay with the expected use. The civilian versions are semi-automatic, as they are typically used for target shooting, hunting, or home defense where you want precise shot placement. Military versions are selective fire and can be used as single shot for accuracy and burst or full auto for suppressive fire. Many firearms enthusiasts seek the civilian version of the AK because of the touted reliability and ruggedness. It is a simple design that can take a great deal of abuse and continue functioning. You can shoot much cheaper ammunition that would tend to foul up and jam other rifles. I am sure that some owners engage in the show and tell of their rifles, but I do not think that it is a major factor in the purchase of the AK.

[benEzra]

84. Yes. I own one.

It is an excellent carbine; think of it as an autoloading .30-30 Winchester with the reliability and durability of a bolt-action. Mine is my favorite rifle.

[jody]

23. Apparently you support banning all guns or classes of guns. Please support your position with facts

proving that prohibiting law-abiding citizens from keeping and bearing arms for self-defense will take a single gun from the hands of a criminal.

[ensho]

34. its not the criminal with a gun that bothers me, its the alcoholic with a gun

that does.

[jody]

38. OK, lets ban alcohol and solve your problem as well as DUI and domestic violence, agree? n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

100. The criminals with guns kill thousands more than alcoholics with guns.

[backscatter712]

26. He's actually pretty close to the mark.

The problem with proposals to ban "assault weapons" is that you can't come up with a clean definition.

One gun's black and scary, the other has a wood stock and looks like grandpa's hunting rifle.

But they work the same and fire the same bullets.

The assault-weapon ban in the Brady Act was a total mess - it's definition of a banned assault weapon was a hodge-podge of various models of weapons, along with features such as collapsible stocks, flash suppressors, pistol grips and other such cosmetic features.

The gun manufacturers responded by changing their models a bit to comply with the law - pretty soon, you could buy an AR-15 without a flash suppressor that was perfectly legal, oh, and the flash suppressor's sitting on the shelf over there - it's illegal to install it, but all you need is a screwdriver.

I'm all for sensible gun laws - enhanced penalties for using firearms in crimes, refining the background checks and closing the loopholes, and so on. But the laws against "assault weapons" were nonsensical.

I know, I'm agreeing with a Republican - mmmmm, sacrelicious!

[Mopar151]

68. I would confirm that.

I worked with Susie Webster, who was later assasinated in the town office by a Selectman's son thwarted in a little shady deal with reselling small lots taken for taxes.
Relevant because she was killed with a "replica" Thompson submachine gun (single shot .45) - useful only for it's fetish value. Yes, I said fetish! Try this test - in almost any statement about "Assualt Weapons", substitute "fetish weapon", see how much truer it becomes.
I don't know exactly what makes a fetish weapon, but we ought to be figurin' it out!

My Dad had strong feelings about the subject - 100th Div BAR man, and precision inspector by trade. He thought pistols should not be used by police or for personal protection - he would have a cop carry a carbine (like the Mini-14), and thought a pump shotgun was about right for home protection."That way, there's no doubt about what's goi'n on!" He told me also "Carrying your own ammo in combat will cure you of any desire for full-auto."

[-..__...]

28. VEPR

Available in .308 Win and with a 5 round magazine (to the best of my knowledge, no state allows hunting with any mag greater than a 5 round capacity).

Try not to be too frightened!!! :scared:




(sorry bout that)

Okay... maybe this one is more soothing and politically correct?



And if deer hunting isn't your speed, it's also handy for dispatching those pesky wild pigs that keep rooting up your tomato patch and knocking over your trash barrels...

"This Super VEPR is taking a nap on a Pig which is also taking a nap".

http://web.archive.org/web/20060413110101/www.ak47.com

[greguganus]

32. Are wild pigs tasty? We have lots of them here

They come out at night and tear up the yards. My neighbor shoots them and gives them to a friend of his for eating.

[jody]

36. YES, some wild pigs are tasty but some like the one below killed 25 miles from my farm are not.

[east texas lib]

104. Holy Shit!...

I wonder if my .45-70 could even give that bad boy a headache!

[DonP]

118. Hogzilla! Yikes!

I've seen the picture before but never heard any of the details on that monster.

I had heard they buried it with a backhoe and had to dig it up for the picture when nobody believed them about its size.

When and where did they take that thing and with what? For something that size I think I'd prefer a crew served weapon and a reinforced firing position!

[MercutioATC]

128. Just TRY getting your hands on a Super VEPR, though.

I went crazy looking for one a couple of years ago. There's a rare used one for sale, but they've stopped making them.

[jmg257]

33. Somewhat, the 7.62x39 is comparative to the 30-30. With a scope, an Ak could be decent for deer.

I would prefer a bit more ballisticly, and a little more accuracy. I think an AR-10 in .308 would make a better choice.

Most states limit capacity when hunting anyway, so he is pretty much right.

[Edweird]

35. He's right. It has roughly the same ballisitcs as a 30-30 which is a classic deer round.

The actual facts don't support the screeching ideology of the gun grabbers.

[aikoaiko]

40. A semi-auto Ak-47-style rifle w/5-round mag is no different than a typical semi-auto hunting rifle

Its true.

[scrinmaster]

41. A normal semi auto AK47 clone is exactly the same as a Ruger Mini-30.

Although it's as accurate, cheaper, and more reliable.

[anonymous171]

44. Why don't I care? nt

[DevonRex]

48. What he said is true. nt

[alfredo]

53. Everybody has guns in Afghanistan and Somalia.

[slackmaster]

58. Yes, fully automatic, genuine AK-47s

Not civilian semiautomatic ones.

[old mark]

57. Lott, as usual,is correct. The AK's imported and sold widely in the US

are specially made COPIES of the various military rifles, with receivers made for semi-auto use ONLY. They can easily be fitted with 5 shot magazines and used for hunting. Their 7.62x39 round is nearly identical to the over 100 year old .30-30 used in lever action "cowboy" rifles for hunting medium game. The .30-30 was a high velocity long range wonder cartridge when it was invented in the 1890's.
The AK's sold on the civilian market in the US are toys compared to the "real" military weapons that are available throuout Africa, the mid-east and far-east for very little money.
Anti-gun people hate John Lott because he stated crime would decrease when Shall Issue carry laws were passed. Turns out he was right.
mark

[tuckessee]

65. He's absolutely spot on correct 100% right on the money, etc.

Nice to see Mr. Lott understands firearms. Too bad so few Democrats do.

[solinvictus]

70. Civilian Kalashnikov action..

You can buy Kalashnikov action hunting rifles in .308 Winchester and .30-06. These rounds are much more powerful than the 7.62x39 M43 cartridge used in the AK-47/AKM and it's civilian clones.

[Iktomiwicasa]

89. One in

7mm-08 would be perfect :toast:

[benEzra]

94. You can get an AR in 7mm-08...

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/Model_R-25.asp

:D

[Iktomiwicasa]

101. Oh, sweet.

7mm-08 is my favorite of all the .308/7.62 NATO derivatives.

[Tim01]

71. It doesn't have enough power for a long range hunting rifle. Fine short range.

[quiller4]

78. OK flat shooting for short range but just OK

for hunting you want an expanding bullet which you can more easily find in 30-06, 308 30-30, etc.,. because you want to take down game with a single killing shot. Using an underpowered load increases the chance of wounding but not killing an animal and the need to track and kill with a second shot.

[benEzra]

85. Good 154-grain softpoints in 7.62x39mm are now widely available...

and are quite comparable to the 150-grain .30-30 loads. Muzzle velocity is around 2000 fps with the 154's, as I recall, out of a 16" barrel.

[virginia mountainman]

72. John Lott, is correct......Ensho would do good to pay attention.

Would not seem so silly if he would.

[Xela]

73. John Lott is correct and you are making a storm in a tea pot.

There are plenty of AK type variations suited for hunting, including many listed in the nefarious AWB that thankfully expired.

Xela

[paulsby]

132. the OP will never admit they are wrong

this is the internet, after all.

metric assloads of evidence have been provided that lott is right.

will the OP issue an apology ?

of course not

[dashrif]

74. And Saiga

in 7.26, 7.62 nato, 5.56 nato, 20ga, 12ga
from varmints, dear, upland/water birds, hogs, prong horn, rabbits the saiga's got you covered

[benEzra]

79. Yes. IDENTICAL to a Ruger Mini Thirty intermediate-caliber deer rifle.

And since I own a non-automatic civilian AK and have owned a Ruger Mini-14 in the past, I can speak directly to that comparison.

Ruger Mini Thirty, intermediate-caliber deer rifle:

Saiga (non-automatic civilian AK in a traditional 1800's-style straight stock):




My SAR-1 (non-automatic civilian AK in 1950's style stock):





Same caliber (7.62x39mm, similar to .30-30 Winchester).
Same rate of fire (once and only once when the trigger is pulled).
Same ammunition. Same range of magazine capacities.
Same accuracy (or if anything, the AK is better).
Same effective range.
Same (and relatively low) velocity and kinetic energy.
Same hunting utility and legality.

The main difference is, the deer rifle's gas system is upside down compared to the civilian AK's, allowing the gas piston assembly to be covered below the barrel by a cowboy-style wooden stock instead of being more visible above the barrel like it is on the civilian AK's.

Actual military AK-47's, and all other automatic weapons or those easily converted to automatic fire, are as tightly controlled in the United States as howitzers, tanks, and rocket launchers.

[rl6214]

88. there you go with the facts again

This thread has no room for facts.

[DonP]

87. I hereby declare this thread a wretched failure

I think the purpose of the OP was to gather a bunch of "like minded" people to decry what a RW A-Hole Lott is and how he's talking through his ass again. After all everyone knows that all AK-47s are death dealing killing machines that sneak out of the house at night and murder whole neighborhoods by themselves with their large capacity "clips"!.

Instead we got a bunch of posts not only confirming the accuracy of his point and reinforcing and expanding on it but also pointing out actual laws and hunting rules to support it.

Obviously the thread is a failure.

<sarcasm off>

(Me, I'm an AR kind of guy so I got no dog in this fight.)

[benEzra]

92. AR deer rifle...

Remington R25, caliber .243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, or .308 Winchester:




http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/Model_R-25.asp

[gorfle]

107. Gun tests gave it a "D"

This month's Gun Tests magazine gave the Remington R25 poor marks.

[benEzra]

109. I wonder what the beef was?

Other than the supplied paramecium-sized magazine and the price. Should be similar to a Bushmaster .308, since there is probably production commonality.

[gorfle]

110. Here are some quotes...

"Further examination of the barrel, a quick trip to the owner’s manual, and a call to Remington, confirmed an observation: although listed as a chrome-moly barrel, the R-25 isn’t chrome lined. We’re used to our ARs with steel barrels incorporating this feature to add corrosion resistance and durability. Although a deer hunter isn’t going to put 100 rounds downrange on a hunting trip (at least we hope not), we found it odd that Remington would leave out the chrome plating on a $1500 gun.

A trip to the range gave us further disappointment. Our R-25 absolutely, positively, hated to fire our 175-grain Silver State loads. Soft-striking the primer, it would not complete a five-round group without emanating the ominous "click" on one of our rounds. We managed to collect an unlucky 13 rounds suffering from this malady until we moved on to other loads.

The Silver State 168-grain and Federal 150-grain rounds fared better, but still gave us three and one failures to fire, respectively. After our testing, we did contact Silver State regarding our issues with the R-25. They informed us that the 175-grain rounds were manufactured using a harder military primer. This might have gained the Remington some ground with us had the other guns experienced this same problem; however, our other guns ate the ammo just fine. This also did not explain it the Remington’s timid primer-strike on the other four rounds that failed to ignite."

They also complained that the camo finish had been marred by sliding around inside its unlined plastic shipping case.

Although stamped "Remington", these weapons are manufactured by DPMS and Bushmaster, both owned by the same parent company, Cerberus Capital Management.

They gave highest marks to the Fulton Armory Titan FAR-308 and the ArmaLite AR-10T 308 Win./7.62 NATO. They seemed to favor the Fulton Armory unit best.

The Fulton Armory gun got a A-, the ArmaLite got a B+, and the Remington got a D.

[inkool]

112. Interesting quotes.

This is why i do not like most gun magazines. Authors who do not know the difference between chrome and chrome-moly should not be writing on the subject.

In a hunting rifle I would prefer chrome-moly as it should improve the accuracy with out sacrificing much durability.

On the other hand the soft primer strikes would worry me.

[benEzra]

114. Egads, you're right. I missed the chrome-moly vs. chrome lined screwup.

The light firing pin strikes suggest either lack of lubrication or a weak spring, I'd think?

[X_Digger]

115. Yup, strange thing is..

DPMS hammers / hammer springs are usually the best choice for these kinds of problems.

[inkool]

116. Except if the springs were installed..

The wrong way. I have seen a few people do that when they build an AR from parts.

[X_Digger]

117. True, true. n/t

[Statistical]

113. People are buying them up because of the "panic"

I guess they figure they can make EVEN MORE $$$ by taking shortcuts.

[gorfle]

111. Here are some quotes...

"Further examination of the barrel, a quick trip to the owner’s manual, and a call to Remington, confirmed an observation: although listed as a chrome-moly barrel, the R-25 isn’t chrome lined. We’re used to our ARs with steel barrels incorporating this feature to add corrosion resistance and durability. Although a deer hunter isn’t going to put 100 rounds downrange on a hunting trip (at least we hope not), we found it odd that Remington would leave out the chrome plating on a $1500 gun.

A trip to the range gave us further disappointment. Our R-25 absolutely, positively, hated to fire our 175-grain Silver State loads. Soft-striking the primer, it would not complete a five-round group without emanating the ominous "click" on one of our rounds. We managed to collect an unlucky 13 rounds suffering from this malady until we moved on to other loads.

The Silver State 168-grain and Federal 150-grain rounds fared better, but still gave us three and one failures to fire, respectively. After our testing, we did contact Silver State regarding our issues with the R-25. They informed us that the 175-grain rounds were manufactured using a harder military primer. This might have gained the Remington some ground with us had the other guns experienced this same problem; however, our other guns ate the ammo just fine. This also did not explain it the Remington’s timid primer-strike on the other four rounds that failed to ignite."

They also complained that the camo finish had been marred by sliding around inside its unlined plastic shipping case.

Although stamped "Remington", these weapons are manufactured by DPMS and Bushmaster, both owned by the same parent company, Cerberus Capital Management.

They gave highest marks to the Fulton Armory Titan FAR-308 and the ArmaLite AR-10T 308 Win./7.62 NATO. They seemed to favor the Fulton Armory unit best.

The Fulton Armory gun got a A-, the ArmaLite got a B+, and the Remington got a D.

[Redneck Socialist]

108. What, no .260?

Sad to see that Remington isn't even supporting their own round any more. It's unfortunate, the .260 is perfect for deer IMO.

[gorfle]

106. he is correct.

the "civilian AK47" is a deer rifle dressed up, so says John Lott that when americans buy a AK47 or assault weapon that its not really like the military AK47/assault weapon. it really is a hunting rifle dressed up to look assaultish.

There is nothing particularly special about civilian AK-47s that differentiate them from any semi-automatic hunting rifle, other than the fact that they are generally more rugged and of poorer workmanship.

[Tim01]

121. My friend shot a deer last year with his AK47 clone.

He used soft points his shot was at about 60 yards. He said the deer wend right down with a big hole in it.

[dashrif]

122. How

big was the hole did it field dress it and knock the horns off :sarcasm:

[rl6214]

123. That would be nice but

Deer have antlers.

[dashrif]

125. yes

Was going for some Okie sarcasm with a strong southern draw it got lost in text

[benEzra]

124. Considering that a civilian AK is ballistically identical to a .30-30 Winchester,

I'd say the wound was comparable to that made by a .30-30 Winchester. You do know that a civilian AK is only about half as powerful as grandpa's .270 or a .30-06, yes?

If I ever take up hunting here in eastern NC, it will be with my "AK" as well.

[dashrif]

126. Yes

It is excellent brush gun and I have taken 3 doe with one but I prefer my marlin 30-30 I got it from walmart over 10 years ago for 280.00 bucks (Buddy's walmart discount card)but this year it will set in the safe and my sons .243 will get a workout he is ready to get his first dear

[Tim01]

127. Nothing quite so fancy.

But the hit was a little bit of a grazing shot. So it opened up the front shoulder more than if it had been a better hit. Still put it down though.

[adiabatic]

129. Are all gun owners "gun nuts" in your pathetic little hateful world?

All of them?

[cwcwmack]

133. is it inappropriate to say

fuck the anti-gun NAZI's?

[spin]

134. Yes...

Politeness is a virtue, especially when you have the far better argument.

Let the "anti-gun NAZIs" (also an insult) rant and rave and throw insults. It doesn't add anything to their side of the argument. Insults merely make them feel good, just like so many of their useless "feel good" ideas, such as another assault weapons ban, which do nothing.

[cwcwmack]

135. but

it's so hard to be nice to them. They're literally stupid... meaning they have a complete lack of deductive reasoning. When I hear this "So it takes a 30 round clip to hunt deer" type arguments I want to scream.

Truth be told, I want my 30 round magazine because it's fun. Yes, fun. It's fun to be at the range and blaze off 30 rounds at a target. It's just fun. And they don't want us to have fun.

puritans.

[dashrif]

136. And

30 my not be enough when feral hog hunting if you come across a whole mess of them

[jody]

139. That's not edible but it can destroy farms and forests. n/t

[dashrif]

141. Yup

but the young ones are tasty

[SteveM]

138. The "assault weapon" is becoming the new hunting weapon...

Don't you find it ironic that the gun-controllers who disingenuously argue that "we aren't going to take away your hunting guns" will have to face the fact that rifle manufacturers are now adopting the AR 15 (the semi-auto version of the M 16) platform for use in hunting? Some are chambered for larger, more powerful rounds suitable for deer and other American big game, like the new .260 Remington. I have fired an AK 47, which is minimally powerful for deer, and have examined a new Remington chambered for more powerful rounds. The ergonomics are superior to the traditional walnut & blue steel rifles with scopes, and now just as accurate.

When the gun-banners intentionally confused "assault rifle" (full auto) with "assault weapon" (who knows the banners' definition de jour?), they couldn't have imagined that the gun they so hated would morph into the "hunting guns" they aren't going to take away.

Chickens DO come home to roost.

[jody]

140. "Chickens DO come home to roost" and the stone that was rejected can become the cornerstone if party

leaders can be cured of their terminal case of stupidity.

If Obama will just promise to veto any bill to renew AWB or other bill that infringes on the 2nd, the Democratic Party can control congress for a decade or several decades.

There are over 80+ million gun-owners and most of them voted in the election that had about 130+ million voters.

Anyone who deliberately opposes a civil right so dear to the hearts of 80+ million potential voters and who influence how their families and friends vote has to have a political death wish.

[Meloman]

142. They're semi-automatic "clones"

Civilian variants of the AK-47 are the semi-automatic "clones" of the venerable assault rifle. That's the only differenece.

[benEzra]

143. Just like a Chevrolet Impala is a "clone" of a NASCAR race car.

They may look similar externally, but they are functionally not the same. Civilian AK's are built on civilian receivers, and use civilian bolt carriers and civilian fire-control parts. Functionally, a civilian AK is identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty intermediate-caliber deer rifle.

FWIW, I own a civilian AK derivative, and shoot competitively and recreationally with it. It works just like any other gas-operated civilian rifle.

[baldguy]

144. It's a fashion statement.

But outrageous 10-in high heels aren't designed to kill people.

[SecularNATION]

149. So?

Some objects were designed for warfare. So what? Doesn't mean there aren't other uses. Yes, the original fully automatic AK-47 was designed for war. So were swords, crossbows, and any number of other things. Does that mean they should be prohibited by the government?

[baldguy]

150. When a gun worshiper chooses an "assaultish" weapon over a normally-styled one

it displays a profound sense of insecurity on his part.

All other things being equal, yes - a dangerous products should be banned by the govt. THAT'S WHAT WE PUT IT THERE FOR!

[benEzra]

152. LOL. Is that why Olympic target shooters use "assaultish" weapons in competition?

When a gun worshiper chooses an "assaultish" weapon over a normally-styled one

it displays a profound sense of insecurity on his part.

LOL. Is that why Olympic target shooters use "assaultish" weapons in competition? Because Olympic athletes are "profoundly insecure"?





And those vertical handgrips are "only useful for killing people" and only appeal to Rambo wannabes, yes?




:rofl:

And the top target shooters in America choose AR-15's because they look wicked and sinful to Puritanical eyes, and NOT because they are fantastically accurate, ergonomic, gentle to shoot, and modular?



BTW, quick question. Can you think of any reasons a shooter might choose a polymer adjustable stock over a walnut fixed-length stock BESIDES "a profound sense of insecurity"?

Like, you know, wanting a stock that adjusts for length?

I guess you also think the only reason that a shooter might choose a comfortable, ergonomic target-style handgrip, rather than a traditional straight stock that makes you bend your wrist like a chicken wing, is insecurity, too.

That's funny, right there...

[SecularNATION]

153. "dangerous" products

Well, that's a YES alright, baldguy. Ban those swords, crossbows, and anything else that can be deemed "dangerous" by the safety police. Tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, fast cars, motorcycles, speedboats, etc. etc. etc. After all, THAT'S WHAT WE PUT IT THERE FOR!

[paulsby]

161. bathtubs and swimming pools too

more kids die from drowning than firearms (unintentional and intentional) deaths

[krispos42]

158. So you want firearm ergonomics to stay static? From, say, 1910 or so?

The protruding pistol grip on some rifles is generally considered more ergonomic than the "regular" grip, hence the development. When using your rifle as a spear or a club became a remote possibility, the military switched over to pistol grips on their rifles.

I personally like the traditional inline-stock, but I spend far more time taking about guns than shooting them. In fact, I haven't shot a long gun in almost 5 years.


The other aspects of an "assaultish" rifle are aspects that are desirable to pretty much all guns: ease of dissassembly and reassembly, reliability in feeding, firing, and ejection, accuracy, etc. And are you really going to be upset because the gun is designed to mount a flashlight or laser sight under the barrel?


You're basically cranky because the gun does well what a gun should do!

[benEzra]

151. I do own one "weapon of war" that was "designed to kill people"...

This one.



It's a Finnish M39 built on a 1905-dated Russian M1891 hex receiver still bearing the imperial crest of the Czar.

It likely saw action in World War I, possibly the Bolshevik revolution and the Finnish breakaway, definitely helped defend Finland from the Soviets in 1939-1940, and probably helped kick the Nazis out of Finland in 1944-1945. The highest sight setting is 2.0 kilometers/2000 meters, and it's twice as powerful as an AK-47.

It's also a bolt-action, functionally identical to both a high-powered sniper rifle and a deer rifle (which are essentially the same thing).

My SAR-1, however, is NOT a weapon of war, was NOT designed or manufactured to kill people, and has never been used by any military on this planet:



It is, however, an excellent rifle, combining the all-around versatility of a .30-30 Winchester with a more rugged and durable design, detachable magazines, and improved capacity.

(And no, it's not an actual AK-47, since AK-47's are as tightly controlled in the USA as howitzers and bombs are.)

[Recursion]

154. He's right, too NT