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the "civilian AK47" is a deer rifle dressed up, so says John Lott

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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:34 AM
Original message
the "civilian AK47" is a deer rifle dressed up, so says John Lott


that when americans buy a AK47 or assault weapon that its not really like the military AK47/assault weapon. it really is a hunting rifle dressed up to look assaultish.

he told us that this morning on Wash. Journal.

he is a gun nut who was spouting all these gun stats to prove his point that a gun in every pocket brings crime down.

his pants were on fire.
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no limit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
1. He has a point on the AK-47 thing.
They are not fully automatic like military grade ones are.
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obiwan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #1
62. It is my understanding that a moderately clever person ...
...can make the AK-47 fully automatic.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
67. You have been misinformed.
Converting a semi-automatic rifle to fully automatic, when that rifle was not designed for such, is not at all easy. The urban legends of "converter kits" or manuals showing which firing pin to file down being sold at gun shows are just that.

To be sure, you can buy kits and manuals purporting to convert semi- to full-auto, but one check of your spam folder should convince you that not everything works as advertised.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
76. Your understanding
IS WRONG
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #62
130. then please explain why, in 20 yrs of law enforcement work
i have NEVER seen a converted semi-auto of ANY type, let alone an ak-47.

i have seen HUNDREDS of guns. not ONE conversion. and i've seen plenty of civilian ak's.

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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
2. To the gungeon in 3, 2, 1...
n.t.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
98. That is where posts like this belong.
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
3. Sometimes I need a 30 round clip to bring down a deer...
They just won't stay down.
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #3
6. and comparitively unreliable aim next to a regular hunting rifle.
The 30 bullet clip is totally needed!
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #6
30. What's a "regular" hunting rifle?
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #30
102. Depends on what is being hunted...
In my neck of the woods Winchester lever-action 30-30's and Remington scoped bolt action .243's,
.270's and 30-'06's are favorites of the "regular" deer hunting set.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
80. Not if you're comparing it to a .30-30 Winchester, which it resembles.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 04:04 PM by benEzra
My civilian AK can stay on an 18" steel ram at 200 yards, the longest distance available at my local range, with cheap imported 122-grain plinking ammunition. With quality hunting loads (154-grain softpoints), it is plenty accurate for deer hunting within 100-125 yards, and beyond 125 yards lacks the energy to humanely kill a deer anyway.

I currently don't hunt, but if I ever do take up hunting, it will be with my AK, shown below in hunting configuration with 4x scope and 5-round magazine:



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TXRAT2 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #80
145. Wouldn't have either for hunting.
Both are underpowered by my standards.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #145
146. It all depends on what you are hunting.
For the smaller white-tail deer, the .30-30 and AK are perfectly fine. For the bigger mule/black-tail deer, you would probably want something bigger. For elk and bigger game you would definitely need something bigger, like a .30-06 or .308.
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TXRAT2 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. Not even for Whitetails.
My standards require a minimum of 2000 ft-lbs at 100 yards minimum. And I would have to say they both display a trajectory of a poorly thrown rock. You can hunt with one if you chose, but not me. I'll stick with my Weatherby's.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #148
155. You're in Texas, though.
Edited on Sat May-02-09 09:50 PM by benEzra
Around here (eastern NC, medium-sized deer, thick pine woods, often short sight lines), I know people who hunt deer with buckshot. A .30-30 or 7.62x39mm is certainly suitable for small to medium sized deer inside 100 yards with 150-ish grain softpoints at 2000 fps or so.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 10:40 PM
Response to Reply #155
156. Hunting white-tail deer in Maine was the same way.
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TXRAT2 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #155
159. You're in Texas, though.
Fair enough! 200 plus yard shots are pretty common in this open country. Hell our fence posts are taller than our tree's.
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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #146
157. minor quibble
while blacktail deer are a subspecies of mulie, they are quite small, half the weight or less of a Rocky Mountain mule deer.
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. Thanks. Learn something new every day...
Edited on Sun May-03-09 04:25 PM by ManiacJoe
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Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
97. Correct, the sight radius somewhat too short - nt
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Does your state allow that?
Mine restricts hunting arms to five rounds. (And five-round magazines are available for AKs specifically for that purpose.)
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #11
24. In Michigan, a 5 round magazine is the max for hunting
There isn't much of a difference between deer hunting with a semi-auto version of the AK-47 and a lever action 30-30. Neither is considered to be high powered or very accurate.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #24
56. Hunters have told me the 30-30 has probably taken more deer than any other round
It's been available and popular for a very long time.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #56
60. It's a good choice where I live.
The thick woods, hills and gullies make long range shots uncommon. Plus the lighter weight of the 30-30 is a bonus when walking up and down the hills and gullies.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #24
103. Having never fired an AK type weapon...
I cannot attest to their accuracy or power. However, I have seen someone with a scoped 30-30
regularly hit bottle caps at 100yds. I thought that was pretty fair shootin'.
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TXRAT2 Donating Member (103 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
147. Texas has no magazine restrictions
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. They probably won't
if you shoot them with a .223. You need a thirty caliber bullet for deer. And those are available in both the standard and "scary" configruations as well.
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Ready4Change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
95. That's my thought too.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 08:03 PM by Ready4Change
The rounds typically used in an AK-47 (or the more likely to be purchased AK-47 look alike knockoffs) will have about half of the muzzle energy of the rounds hunters prefer to use hunting deer.

link: http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_ballistics_table.htm

In numbers, the 7.63x39 round most often used in AK-47 like rifles typically has muzzle energy of around 1500 ft lbs.

Whereas the 30-06 (prefered by hunters I talk to) puts out around 2,800 ft lbs.

The 30-30 mentioned above comes out around 1,800 to 1,900, depending on load.

BTW, the rounds used in American M-16/AR-15 rifles comes out around 1,300 ft lbs. (Not sure that's right. I'm looking for another source.)

Now, I'm sure some are thinking that CAN'T be right, because military rifles are supposed to be MORE powerful, right?

Not right. The rounds they use are sufficient to provide a battlefield kill, but aren't overpowered. That makes each round lighter, and that means the soldiers can carry more rounds, increasing how much they can fire in combat.

But when hunting deer you are usually required by hunting laws to use firearms with a restricted number of rounds (5-8 seems typical.) 30 round clips are frowned on at least, and illegal more often than not. So, since you are carrying fewer bullets, they can be more powerful, and that increases the odds of a quicker kill.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #95
131. actually not
most military ammo/gun configurations are designed to WOUND vs. kill, iow not to provide a battlefield kill, but a disabling injury.

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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #3
43. +1 Best comment of the thread...
:rofl:
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #3
45. And AP tracer to cook it on the fly.
Good luck in collecting your brass to reload.....
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salguine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #3
49. My Dadwho is a hunteralways said, "A good hunter should be able to
go into the woods with two bullets, and come back with a deer and one unused bullet."
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #49
81. Yup. Why do you think you can't do that with a civilian AK?
Anything a Winchester Model 94 .30-30 can do, a civilian AK can do just as well.
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obiwan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
63. Find another hobby.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
64. use a grenade next time...
kill and tenderized meat! :sarcasm:
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
86. Sorry most state hunting laws have limits on the number of rounds...
you can have in the rifle while hunting (usually 5 rounds). Five round magazines are available online and at gun shows.

From the Florida Hunting Regulations:

Prohibited methods and equipment for taking game

Centerfire semi-automatic rifles having magazine capacities of more than five rounds

http://myfwc.com/docs/RecreationActivities/08-09HuntingRegulationsHandBook.pdf





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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
105. Sigh.
Sometimes I need a 30 round clip to bring down a deer...

I am so tired of this meme.

First of all, most, if not all, states regulate the size of magazine that can be used for hunting different kinds of game.

I have a 5-round magazine for my semi-automatic AK-47, and I have 30-round magazines for it.

Guess which one I use for hunting?

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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
137. My goodness: someone who shouldn't have a gun and shouldn't hunt (nt)
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. That is true.
An "assault rifle" that you would buy at a gun show is not anything like a military weapon except in looks. It is a semiautomatic hunting rifle made to look like a Scary Military Gun.
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sammythecat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
50. Really?
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 12:07 PM by sammythecat
This is an honest question here. I really don't know, but I was under the impression that an AK-47 bought at a gun show was indeed a scary military gun but modified in such a way that it functions only in a semi-automatic mode suitable for hunting.

While I'm at it, let me ask you another question you might be able to answer. Is it easy, or hard, to undo the modification done to a fully automatic weapon to make it semi-auto? Is it just a matter of replacing the sear, or is there much more involved? I'm thinking, and hope, that it's more involved than just replacing a single part. Again, honest question, I really don't know. We're probably on the same side in this issue in that I have a problem with the misuse and misunderstanding of the term "assault rifle".
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Finding the specifics can be daunting, but generally enough changes have been made so it is not easy
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 12:23 PM by jmg257
"The hammer can be slightly different, as hammers made specifically for semi-autos don't have the notch for the auto sear. The sear/disconnector is slightly different in a semi auto as well, some material has been removed. There are also several other parts that have been ground down to keep someone from just dropping in the FA parts, as well as certain pieces that are built differently so as not to accept FA parts. It's not just a couple things, it's quite a few."

Guns like Thompsons and ARs have different receivers then full auto originals, plus a bunch of other parts. Keeps one from just 'dropping in' FA parts.


I am not too familiar with specifics, others here know way more.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #54
90. i have never seen a converted semi to full-auto gun
in 20 yrs of law enforcement.

however hard it is to convert, they are clearly NOT common.

i've seen/seized etc. hundreds of guns.

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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Nah, not easily convertible..
In either '86 or '94, the rules changed and now the BATFE treats any gun that is considered 'easily convertible' as thought it already had been converted (thus making the sale / transfer of these guns fall under the very strict 1934 National Firearms Act.)

A competent machinist with plans and access to quality tool steel and the means to case harden it could do it, but then again, if you have those kind of skills, you could build a much simpler machinegun from scratch far easier. (not to mention the 10 year vacation in club fed that would get you.)

re: the ak-47 knock-offs. Ex-com-bloc countries (mostly) produce non-automatic versions of the AK-pattern rifle in different configurations for the export market. Some have thumbhole stocks, some look like traditional hunting rifles, some a blend. Point is, they use different components than the fully automatic gun it's based on.

It's not like a Cadillac Escalade with or without a DVD player, it's more like a Cadillac Escalade with a DVD player versus a Chevy Avalance without a DVD player.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
96. It's not a modification.
It's not like there's a switch flipped inside it to turn an automatic into a semi-auto, or that these are military weapons repurposed for civilian use. They're built that way from the start. It's like the difference between a real Rolex and a $20 imitation.

Theoretically, if you had a full-auto sear which was compatible with a semi-auto gun, yeah you could: but semi-autos and full autos are deliberately designed to not have compatible parts. Here in the US, any gun which is easily converted to full-auto is considered to be full auto already. It's also illegal to possess a full auto sear and a gun into which it can be installed without the full National Firearms Act licensing that real live machine guns get.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
5. sure, when you want to shred the deer in advance..
... of getting it dressed, later...
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #5
27. Of course you know that most deer rifles are more powerful than a "civilian AK-47," right?
Of course you did.
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #27
42. hence the reason most hunters suggest not using AK-47's to hunt?
Which I assume you -- angry, gun-loving Raskolnik -- knew as well?
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
52. Which is why comments about "shredding" deer w/ an AK47 lookalike are so silly.
And you must have me confused with someone else. I'm actually a pretty happy fella, and I don't think I would characterize my feelings towards guns as "love," but since you've clearly taken a psych 101b course in your life, I suppose you are the expert. But, if you could point out an example of me being angry with you, or me displaying my "gun-loving," I would greatly appreciate you doing so.

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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #52
99. That's some funny shit.
:rofl:
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #52
119. Only an anti could "logcially" defend both sides of same coin
AK-47 will "shred a deer"
AK-47 is not powerful enough to hunt deer with.

BAN EM BAN EM

BAN EM because they will "shred a deer" and if that doesn't work BAN EM because they are not true hunting rifles, they are not powerful enough to kill deer.

Other funny (well not funny more like sad) thing is that antis never understand that caliber != weapon.

The original AK-47 was 7.62x39mm SOVIET which is a relatively underpowered cartridge.
The original AR-15 was 5.56x45mm NATO which also is not a powerful cartridge.

However the AK-47 platform is available in dozens of calibers as is the AR-15 platform.

From another forum:

AR-15, without bolt modification
.17 Remington
.20 Tactical
.204 Ruger
.221 Fireball
.222 Remington
.222 Remington Magnum
.223 Remington (5.56x45mm)
.223 Remington Ackley Improved
6x45mm
6mm Whisper
6.5mm Whisper
7mm Whisper
7mm TCU
.300 Whisper (.300/221, .300 Fireball)
.338 Whisper

AR-15, with bolt modification
223 WSSM
5.45x39mm (.21 Genghis)
243 WSSM
6mm PPC
6mm BR Remington
6.5mm PPC
6.5mm Grendel
25 WSSM
6.8x43mm SPC
.30 Herrett Rimless Tactical (6.8x43mm case trimmed to 41mm and necked up to .308; the 6.8mm version of the .300 Whisper)
7.62x39mm
.357 Auto
.458 SOCOM
.50 Action Express
.50 Beowulf

AR-15 using a simple blowback operation
.17 HMR
.22 LR
.22 WMR
9x19mm
40S&W
10mm Auto
45ACP
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
61. Depends on where you live and what you are hunting.
I wouldn't use a semi-auto AK-47 for deer hunting just as I wouldn't use a lever action 30-30 where long range shots are the norm but either would be a good choice in wooded, hilly areas where a long range shot would be the exception.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #42
82. If you forsee shots longer than 125 yards, yes, you'd need something more powerful.
But anything you can hunt with a Winchester .30-30, you can hunt with a civilian AK, which is the .30-30's ballistic twin. Here in eastern NC, .30-30/7.62x39mm are reasonable choices; out West where you might be looking at 200-yard shots, not so much.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
7. What stats
caused his pants to ignite?
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #7
17. you will have to listen to him, he spat out stats at the speed of an


AK47 civilian or military. really, it was sorta amazing.

c-span.org

Washington Journal

they have radio and video of it.
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Winterblues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
19. More guns means less crime...Look to Somalia or Iraq for that answer.
:shrug:
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #19
46. Yes, that is a great comparison...
Look at Somalia, a country that has ZERO law and order, no effective government,and some of the worst poverty in the world. You are completely correct in attributing the problems in that country with firearms ownership because other than that factor nothing else would create the condition of that country. :sarcasm:

Then you say Iraq, well yes, another paragon of stability but for the presence of guns. I mean if you can look past the fact that the region has been engaged in religious war for 1000 years, that the country was cobbled together out of groups of people with a deep animosity for each other, that it was held together by a brutal dictator for decades, that the populations poverty and illiteracy rate are extremely high, and that the country has been occupied by a foreign invader (from their perspective) for the last 6 years. If you can ignore the effects of all those factors and more, then your statement correlating guns with crime is completely accurate...:sarcasm:

I don't know if more guns equals less crime. Some statistics bear that out. Other statistics challenge that notion. I know that less guns does not necessarily mean less crimes, it just means potentially less crimes with guns. Though that may be appealing to people who are so vehemently opposed to guns, it does little to actually make a society safer. To make society safer you need to have a stable government, fairly equal and consistent economic opportunity, healthy social structures, and a connection by citizens to their fellow citizen. Perhaps the US has lost that balance on those issues and we need to address them so that we can decrease the level of violence in our society. The countries you want to use as models are in complete social and political chaos. Why not use Switzerland instead? They have a very high per capita gun ownership rate and have much less of a problem with violence than the US. What are they doing differently?
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #46
120. Well written
Crime is caused by:
poverty
lack of social safety net
poor enforcement of existing laws
drug trade
lack of good mental health resources.

If we tackled those issues (as other countries have) we could reduce crime.
There will always be crime. There will always be mass killings. We can ensure there is less though.

However looking at that list it is a bunch of hard to solve complex & expensive problems.
Easier (but less useful) to cry "BAN EM".

BAN EM is the left wing version of DRILL BABY DRILL. Short sighted but pointless.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #19
77. Or maybe Switzerland or Norway?
I can play that game too.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
91. or switzerland
an actual functioning democracy.

they have a lower crime rate than the UK, and a significantly lower violent crime rate

and practically every adult household has a full auto rifle in it.

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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
8. Eh, he's not lying but it's really more like a combat rifle that has been neutered
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 10:46 AM by slackmaster
So as to not fall under the authority of the National Firearms Act.

The real question is: What would a pirate use?
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. When blunderbusses are outlawed...
Only ----- will have -----

(fill in the blanks).

:smoke:

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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
59. They wouldn't use an assault weapon
They much prefer an actual assault rifle.
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. It's actually less powerful than a deer rifle
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #9
25. Depends on what deer rifle you are comparing it to.
The power and accuracy of the very popular lever action 30-30 I suspect is very similar to the semi-auto AK-47.
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #9
37. It's similar to a .30-30 one of the most (historically) popular deer rounds.
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formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. Unfortunately, good quality 7.62x39 hunting ammunition is scarce
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:55 AM by formercia
and expensive. Norma is good but try finding it in bumfuck USA.

A good hunter needs only one round. Auto-getem is for amateurs and idiots.

The 7.62x39 has a .310 diameter bullet, so reloading with commonly available .308 bullets is iffy unless you shoot it in a Ruger Mini-30, which is bored .308.
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yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
75. .311 NT
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #47
83. The new Wolf 154-grain softpoint load is reportedly very good
and quite accurate.
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Spider Jerusalem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
10. Technically, he's nearly right
An actual Kalashnikov is a select-fire military weapon. The version available for civilian purchase is semi-automatic; there is no functional difference between a semi-auto 'AK-47' and a semi-auto hunting rifle (although the 'AK-47' will be less inherently accurate due to a combination of shorter barrel length and the ballistic characteristics of the Russian 7.62x39mm round).
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SteelPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Canadians have lots of guns
The Swiss have the most guns per capita than anyone else, even us.

Our problem isn't guns. Our problem is that our culture creates right wing nutjobs who shoot up schools, banks, parks, police, etc. We need to figure out what it is that causes THAT, and fix that. otherwise the nutjobs will always find a way to get other guns.

I guess what I'm saying is that we could make assault weapons illegal, handguns illegal, have strict requirements on gun ownership, and safety ones, and people would still get those guns illegally and shoot up a church.

We need to address the cause not the symptom, imho.

But yeah nobody needs an AK-47, military fully auto, or otherwise.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #12
93. the issue is not
'rightwing nutjobs' with guns.

statistically speaking, they are less of a concern than your garden variety dirtbag criminal, most of whom are politically apathetic.

your average gangbanger, armed robber etc. is not a political creature.

i've been in shootouts and seen dozens of shooting victims.

you are correct that the problem is cultural, but it is not wackjob political ideologues (those are the exception), it is gangbangers, and garden variety criminal scumbags

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ThomWV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
14. He was exactly correct
Its not a 'gun nut' claim, its is in fact a valid claim. Have you ever seen those VW fiberglass body kits that they used to sell for do it yourself nuts to build a car? They looked like race cares but were just dressed up VWs, well, the AKs you see refereed to on the streets are the same thing. They are not the AK-47 assault rifle of warfare, they are look-alikes at best.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:45 AM
Response to Original message
15. Crazy thing is he is right.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 10:48 AM by Statistical
AK47 & AR15 sold in retail gun shops & gunshows are semi-automatic (one trigger pull = one bullet) rifles firing a relatively weak 5.56x45mm or 7.62x39mm cartridge.

The only difference between a well made AK47 clone and a semi-auto "hunting rifle" is:
Hunting rifle looks "less scary" (often w/ wood stock and traditional grip) and usually is chambered in a much MORE LETHAL round.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
16. Well, he's not really right about those "civilian AK-47's."
They are usually significantly less powerful than an actual deer rifle.
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Kaleva Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
66. There are many rifles used for deer hunting
Some are more powerful then an semi-auto AK-47 while others are about the same. On a side note, it's illegal to hunt deer in parts of lower Michigan with a rifle such as as semi-auto AK-47 because it's too powerful. One can only use a shotgun or handgun in those restricted areas.
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Raskolnik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Point taken, but the fact remains that a good number of deer hunting rifles
are significantly more powerful than a civilian AK47 lookalike.
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guitar man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:49 AM
Response to Original message
18. he's essentially correct
it wouldn't be my first choice to bag a deer with, but yeah, it's just a semi-auto rifle with a different type of stock and fittings than you'd see on an average hunting rifle.
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derby378 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
20. IMHO, Lott doesn't need to buy into this whole "deer rifle" malarkey
The Second Amendment doesn't restrict the right of the people to keep and bear only arms deemed suitable for hunting. This is no time to be coy.

If I were on Washington Journal instead of Lott, I'd point to the sheer reliability and versatility of the AK design. It may not be as pinpoint accurate as an AR, but it will perform in heat, cold, submerged in water or sand, etc. That means something to anyone who's had to carry a rifle for self-preservation in the woods, in the desert, or in terra incognito for an extended period of time.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
21. We're all going to need guns...
for the Zombie uprising.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCM9RDkHSEM

Sid


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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
22. do the americans that buy civilian AK47s know they are dressed up?


and less powerful.

is the buyer more interested in show and tell?
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. Can you tell which of the following are misnamed "assault weapons"?
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #22
39. Probably. There may some 'mystique' involved, but likely
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:22 AM by jmg257
it has to do with reliability, cost, availability/price of ammo, and abundance of accessories.

The quality usually just isn't on par with typical ARs, etc., and more recently they have been much cheaper.
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Caliman73 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
51. Typically, yes about the dress up. Not sure about show and tell..
American firearms owners tend to understand that the civilian versions of any rifle used by the military are going to function differently than the military version. The differences lay with the expected use. The civilian versions are semi-automatic, as they are typically used for target shooting, hunting, or home defense where you want precise shot placement. Military versions are selective fire and can be used as single shot for accuracy and burst or full auto for suppressive fire. Many firearms enthusiasts seek the civilian version of the AK because of the touted reliability and ruggedness. It is a simple design that can take a great deal of abuse and continue functioning. You can shoot much cheaper ammunition that would tend to foul up and jam other rifles. I am sure that some owners engage in the show and tell of their rifles, but I do not think that it is a major factor in the purchase of the AK.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
84. Yes. I own one.
It is an excellent carbine; think of it as an autoloading .30-30 Winchester with the reliability and durability of a bolt-action. Mine is my favorite rifle.

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
23. Apparently you support banning all guns or classes of guns. Please support your position with facts
proving that prohibiting law-abiding citizens from keeping and bearing arms for self-defense will take a single gun from the hands of a criminal.
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. its not the criminal with a gun that bothers me, its the alcoholic with a gun
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:15 AM by ensho

that does.

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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. OK, lets ban alcohol and solve your problem as well as DUI and domestic violence, agree? n/t
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #34
100. The criminals with guns kill thousands more than alcoholics with guns.
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
26. He's actually pretty close to the mark.
The problem with proposals to ban "assault weapons" is that you can't come up with a clean definition.

One gun's black and scary, the other has a wood stock and looks like grandpa's hunting rifle.

But they work the same and fire the same bullets.

The assault-weapon ban in the Brady Act was a total mess - it's definition of a banned assault weapon was a hodge-podge of various models of weapons, along with features such as collapsible stocks, flash suppressors, pistol grips and other such cosmetic features.

The gun manufacturers responded by changing their models a bit to comply with the law - pretty soon, you could buy an AR-15 without a flash suppressor that was perfectly legal, oh, and the flash suppressor's sitting on the shelf over there - it's illegal to install it, but all you need is a screwdriver.

I'm all for sensible gun laws - enhanced penalties for using firearms in crimes, refining the background checks and closing the loopholes, and so on. But the laws against "assault weapons" were nonsensical.

I know, I'm agreeing with a Republican - mmmmm, sacrelicious!
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Mopar151 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #26
68. I would confirm that.
I worked with Susie Webster, who was later assasinated in the town office by a Selectman's son thwarted in a little shady deal with reselling small lots taken for taxes.
Relevant because she was killed with a "replica" Thompson submachine gun (single shot .45) - useful only for it's fetish value. Yes, I said fetish! Try this test - in almost any statement about "Assualt Weapons", substitute "fetish weapon", see how much truer it becomes.
I don't know exactly what makes a fetish weapon, but we ought to be figurin' it out!

My Dad had strong feelings about the subject - 100th Div BAR man, and precision inspector by trade. He thought pistols should not be used by police or for personal protection - he would have a cop carry a carbine (like the Mini-14), and thought a pump shotgun was about right for home protection."That way, there's no doubt about what's goi'n on!" He told me also "Carrying your own ammo in combat will cure you of any desire for full-auto."
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-..__... Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
28. VEPR
Available in .308 Win and with a 5 round magazine (to the best of my knowledge, no state allows hunting with any mag greater than a 5 round capacity).

Try not to be too frightened!!! :scared:




(sorry bout that)

Okay... maybe this one is more soothing and politically correct?



And if deer hunting isn't your speed, it's also handy for dispatching those pesky wild pigs that keep rooting up your tomato patch and knocking over your trash barrels...



"This Super VEPR is taking a nap on a Pig which is also taking a nap".


http://web.archive.org/web/20060413110101/www.ak47.com
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greguganus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Are wild pigs tasty? We have lots of them here
They come out at night and tear up the yards. My neighbor shoots them and gives them to a friend of his for eating.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. YES, some wild pigs are tasty but some like the one below killed 25 miles from my farm are not.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
104. Holy Shit!...
I wonder if my .45-70 could even give that bad boy a headache!
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #36
118. Hogzilla! Yikes!
I've seen the picture before but never heard any of the details on that monster.

I had heard they buried it with a backhoe and had to dig it up for the picture when nobody believed them about its size.

When and where did they take that thing and with what? For something that size I think I'd prefer a crew served weapon and a reinforced firing position!
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MercutioATC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #28
128. Just TRY getting your hands on a Super VEPR, though.
I went crazy looking for one a couple of years ago. There's a rare used one for sale, but they've stopped making them.

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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
33. Somewhat, the 7.62x39 is comparative to the 30-30. With a scope, an Ak could be decent for deer.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:15 AM by jmg257
I would prefer a bit more ballisticly, and a little more accuracy. I think an AR-10 in .308 would make a better choice.

Most states limit capacity when hunting anyway, so he is pretty much right.

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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
35. He's right. It has roughly the same ballisitcs as a 30-30 which is a classic deer round.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 11:15 AM by Edweird
The actual facts don't support the screeching ideology of the gun grabbers.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
40. A semi-auto Ak-47-style rifle w/5-round mag is no different than a typical semi-auto hunting rifle

Its true.
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scrinmaster Donating Member (563 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
41. A normal semi auto AK47 clone is exactly the same as a Ruger Mini-30.
Although it's as accurate, cheaper, and more reliable.
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anonymous171 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:42 AM
Response to Original message
44. Why don't I care? nt
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
48. What he said is true. nt
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:10 PM
Response to Original message
53. Everybody has guns in Afghanistan and Somalia.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #53
58. Yes, fully automatic, genuine AK-47s
Not civilian semiautomatic ones.
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
57. Lott, as usual,is correct. The AK's imported and sold widely in the US
are specially made COPIES of the various military rifles, with receivers made for semi-auto use ONLY. They can easily be fitted with 5 shot magazines and used for hunting. Their 7.62x39 round is nearly identical to the over 100 year old .30-30 used in lever action "cowboy" rifles for hunting medium game. The .30-30 was a high velocity long range wonder cartridge when it was invented in the 1890's.
The AK's sold on the civilian market in the US are toys compared to the "real" military weapons that are available throuout Africa, the mid-east and far-east for very little money.
Anti-gun people hate John Lott because he stated crime would decrease when Shall Issue carry laws were passed. Turns out he was right.
mark
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tuckessee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
65. He's absolutely spot on correct 100% right on the money, etc.
Nice to see Mr. Lott understands firearms. Too bad so few Democrats do.
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solinvictus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
70. Civilian Kalashnikov action..
You can buy Kalashnikov action hunting rifles in .308 Winchester and .30-06. These rounds are much more powerful than the 7.62x39 M43 cartridge used in the AK-47/AKM and it's civilian clones.

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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #70
89. One in
7mm-08 would be perfect :toast:
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. You can get an AR in 7mm-08...
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Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #94
101. Oh, sweet.
7mm-08 is my favorite of all the .308/7.62 NATO derivatives.
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
71. It doesn't have enough power for a long range hunting rifle. Fine short range.
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quiller4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #71
78. OK flat shooting for short range but just OK
for hunting you want an expanding bullet which you can more easily find in 30-06, 308 30-30, etc.,. because you want to take down game with a single killing shot. Using an underpowered load increases the chance of wounding but not killing an animal and the need to track and kill with a second shot.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
85. Good 154-grain softpoints in 7.62x39mm are now widely available...
and are quite comparable to the 150-grain .30-30 loads. Muzzle velocity is around 2000 fps with the 154's, as I recall, out of a 16" barrel.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
72. John Lott, is correct......Ensho would do good to pay attention.
Would not seem so silly if he would.
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Xela Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
73. John Lott is correct and you are making a storm in a tea pot.
There are plenty of AK type variations suited for hunting, including many listed in the nefarious AWB that thankfully expired.

Xela
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #73
132. the OP will never admit they are wrong
this is the internet, after all.

metric assloads of evidence have been provided that lott is right.

will the OP issue an apology ?

of course not

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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
74. And Saiga
in 7.26, 7.62 nato, 5.56 nato, 20ga, 12ga
from varmints, dear, upland/water birds, hogs, prong horn, rabbits the saiga's got you covered

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
79. Yes. IDENTICAL to a Ruger Mini Thirty intermediate-caliber deer rifle.
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 04:15 PM by benEzra
And since I own a non-automatic civilian AK and have owned a Ruger Mini-14 in the past, I can speak directly to that comparison.

Ruger Mini Thirty, intermediate-caliber deer rifle:

Saiga (non-automatic civilian AK in a traditional 1800's-style straight stock):




My SAR-1 (non-automatic civilian AK in 1950's style stock):





Same caliber (7.62x39mm, similar to .30-30 Winchester).
Same rate of fire (once and only once when the trigger is pulled).
Same ammunition. Same range of magazine capacities.
Same accuracy (or if anything, the AK is better).
Same effective range.
Same (and relatively low) velocity and kinetic energy.
Same hunting utility and legality.

The main difference is, the deer rifle's gas system is upside down compared to the civilian AK's, allowing the gas piston assembly to be covered below the barrel by a cowboy-style wooden stock instead of being more visible above the barrel like it is on the civilian AK's.

Actual military AK-47's, and all other automatic weapons or those easily converted to automatic fire, are as tightly controlled in the United States as howitzers, tanks, and rocket launchers.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #79
88. there you go with the facts again
This thread has no room for facts.
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
87. I hereby declare this thread a wretched failure
I think the purpose of the OP was to gather a bunch of "like minded" people to decry what a RW A-Hole Lott is and how he's talking through his ass again. After all everyone knows that all AK-47s are death dealing killing machines that sneak out of the house at night and murder whole neighborhoods by themselves with their large capacity "clips"!.

Instead we got a bunch of posts not only confirming the accuracy of his point and reinforcing and expanding on it but also pointing out actual laws and hunting rules to support it.

Obviously the thread is a failure.

<sarcasm off>

(Me, I'm an AR kind of guy so I got no dog in this fight.)
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. AR deer rifle...
Remington R25, caliber .243 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington, or .308 Winchester:




http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/Model_R-25.asp
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #92
107. Gun tests gave it a "D"
This month's Gun Tests magazine gave the Remington R25 poor marks.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. I wonder what the beef was?
Other than the supplied paramecium-sized magazine and the price. Should be similar to a Bushmaster .308, since there is probably production commonality.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #109
110. Here are some quotes...
"Further examination of the barrel, a quick trip to the owners manual, and a call to Remington, confirmed an observation: although listed as a chrome-moly barrel, the R-25 isnt chrome lined. Were used to our ARs with steel barrels incorporating this feature to add corrosion resistance and durability. Although a deer hunter isnt going to put 100 rounds downrange on a hunting trip (at least we hope not), we found it odd that Remington would leave out the chrome plating on a $1500 gun.

A trip to the range gave us further disappointment. Our R-25 absolutely, positively, hated to fire our 175-grain Silver State loads. Soft-striking the primer, it would not complete a five-round group without emanating the ominous "click" on one of our rounds. We managed to collect an unlucky 13 rounds suffering from this malady until we moved on to other loads.

The Silver State 168-grain and Federal 150-grain rounds fared better, but still gave us three and one failures to fire, respectively. After our testing, we did contact Silver State regarding our issues with the R-25. They informed us that the 175-grain rounds were manufactured using a harder military primer. This might have gained the Remington some ground with us had the other guns experienced this same problem; however, our other guns ate the ammo just fine. This also did not explain it the Remingtons timid primer-strike on the other four rounds that failed to ignite."


They also complained that the camo finish had been marred by sliding around inside its unlined plastic shipping case.

Although stamped "Remington", these weapons are manufactured by DPMS and Bushmaster, both owned by the same parent company, Cerberus Capital Management.

They gave highest marks to the Fulton Armory Titan FAR-308 and the ArmaLite AR-10T 308 Win./7.62 NATO. They seemed to favor the Fulton Armory unit best.

The Fulton Armory gun got a A-, the ArmaLite got a B+, and the Remington got a D.



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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. Interesting quotes.
This is why i do not like most gun magazines. Authors who do not know the difference between chrome and chrome-moly should not be writing on the subject.

In a hunting rifle I would prefer chrome-moly as it should improve the accuracy with out sacrificing much durability.

On the other hand the soft primer strikes would worry me.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #112
114. Egads, you're right. I missed the chrome-moly vs. chrome lined screwup.
The light firing pin strikes suggest either lack of lubrication or a weak spring, I'd think?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #114
115. Yup, strange thing is..
DPMS hammers / hammer springs are usually the best choice for these kinds of problems.
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. Except if the springs were installed..
The wrong way. I have seen a few people do that when they build an AR from parts.

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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #116
117. True, true. n/t
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #110
113. People are buying them up because of the "panic"
I guess they figure they can make EVEN MORE $$$ by taking shortcuts.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-16-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. Here are some quotes...
"Further examination of the barrel, a quick trip to the owners manual, and a call to Remington, confirmed an observation: although listed as a chrome-moly barrel, the R-25 isnt chrome lined. Were used to our ARs with steel barrels incorporating this feature to add corrosion resistance and durability. Although a deer hunter isnt going to put 100 rounds downrange on a hunting trip (at least we hope not), we found it odd that Remington would leave out the chrome plating on a $1500 gun.

A trip to the range gave us further disappointment. Our R-25 absolutely, positively, hated to fire our 175-grain Silver State loads. Soft-striking the primer, it would not complete a five-round group without emanating the ominous "click" on one of our rounds. We managed to collect an unlucky 13 rounds suffering from this malady until we moved on to other loads.

The Silver State 168-grain and Federal 150-grain rounds fared better, but still gave us three and one failures to fire, respectively. After our testing, we did contact Silver State regarding our issues with the R-25. They informed us that the 175-grain rounds were manufactured using a harder military primer. This might have gained the Remington some ground with us had the other guns experienced this same problem; however, our other guns ate the ammo just fine. This also did not explain it the Remingtons timid primer-strike on the other four rounds that failed to ignite."


They also complained that the camo finish had been marred by sliding around inside its unlined plastic shipping case.

Although stamped "Remington", these weapons are manufactured by DPMS and Bushmaster, both owned by the same parent company, Cerberus Capital Management.

They gave highest marks to the Fulton Armory Titan FAR-308 and the ArmaLite AR-10T 308 Win./7.62 NATO. They seemed to favor the Fulton Armory unit best.

The Fulton Armory gun got a A-, the ArmaLite got a B+, and the Remington got a D.



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Redneck Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. What, no .260?
Sad to see that Remington isn't even supporting their own round any more. It's unfortunate, the .260 is perfect for deer IMO.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
106. he is correct.
the "civilian AK47" is a deer rifle dressed up, so says John Lott that when americans buy a AK47 or assault weapon that its not really like the military AK47/assault weapon. it really is a hunting rifle dressed up to look assaultish.

There is nothing particularly special about civilian AK-47s that differentiate them from any semi-automatic hunting rifle, other than the fact that they are generally more rugged and of poorer workmanship.

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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
121. My friend shot a deer last year with his AK47 clone.
He used soft points his shot was at about 60 yards. He said the deer wend right down with a big hole in it.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. How
big was the hole did it field dress it and knock the horns off :sarcasm:
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. That would be nice but
Deer have antlers.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:42 AM
Response to Reply #123
125. yes
Was going for some Okie sarcasm with a strong southern draw it got lost in text
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #122
124. Considering that a civilian AK is ballistically identical to a .30-30 Winchester,
I'd say the wound was comparable to that made by a .30-30 Winchester. You do know that a civilian AK is only about half as powerful as grandpa's .270 or a .30-06, yes?

If I ever take up hunting here in eastern NC, it will be with my "AK" as well.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #124
126. Yes
It is excellent brush gun and I have taken 3 doe with one but I prefer my marlin 30-30 I got it from walmart over 10 years ago for 280.00 bucks (Buddy's walmart discount card)but this year it will set in the safe and my sons .243 will get a workout he is ready to get his first dear
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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #122
127. Nothing quite so fancy.
But the hit was a little bit of a grazing shot. So it opened up the front shoulder more than if it had been a better hit. Still put it down though.
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adiabatic Donating Member (59 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
129. Are all gun owners "gun nuts" in your pathetic little hateful world?
All of them?
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cwcwmack Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:16 PM
Response to Original message
133. is it inappropriate to say
fuck the anti-gun NAZI's?
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. Yes...
Politeness is a virtue, especially when you have the far better argument.

Let the "anti-gun NAZIs" (also an insult) rant and rave and throw insults. It doesn't add anything to their side of the argument. Insults merely make them feel good, just like so many of their useless "feel good" ideas, such as another assault weapons ban, which do nothing.
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cwcwmack Donating Member (369 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #134
135. but
it's so hard to be nice to them. They're literally stupid... meaning they have a complete lack of deductive reasoning. When I hear this "So it takes a 30 round clip to hunt deer" type arguments I want to scream.

Truth be told, I want my 30 round magazine because it's fun. Yes, fun. It's fun to be at the range and blaze off 30 rounds at a target. It's just fun. And they don't want us to have fun.

puritans.
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-27-09 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #135
136. And
30 my not be enough when feral hog hunting if you come across a whole mess of them



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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #136
139. That's not edible but it can destroy farms and forests. n/t
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dashrif Donating Member (353 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #139
141. Yup
but the young ones are tasty
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 08:47 PM
Response to Original message
138. The "assault weapon" is becoming the new hunting weapon...
Don't you find it ironic that the gun-controllers who disingenuously argue that "we aren't going to take away your hunting guns" will have to face the fact that rifle manufacturers are now adopting the AR 15 (the semi-auto version of the M 16) platform for use in hunting? Some are chambered for larger, more powerful rounds suitable for deer and other American big game, like the new .260 Remington. I have fired an AK 47, which is minimally powerful for deer, and have examined a new Remington chambered for more powerful rounds. The ergonomics are superior to the traditional walnut & blue steel rifles with scopes, and now just as accurate.

When the gun-banners intentionally confused "assault rifle" (full auto) with "assault weapon" (who knows the banners' definition de jour?), they couldn't have imagined that the gun they so hated would morph into the "hunting guns" they aren't going to take away.

Chickens DO come home to roost.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. "Chickens DO come home to roost" and the stone that was rejected can become the cornerstone if party
leaders can be cured of their terminal case of stupidity.

If Obama will just promise to veto any bill to renew AWB or other bill that infringes on the 2nd, the Democratic Party can control congress for a decade or several decades.

There are over 80+ million gun-owners and most of them voted in the election that had about 130+ million voters.

Anyone who deliberately opposes a civil right so dear to the hearts of 80+ million potential voters and who influence how their families and friends vote has to have a political death wish.
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Meloman Donating Member (21 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
142. They're semi-automatic "clones"
Civilian variants of the AK-47 are the semi-automatic "clones" of the venerable assault rifle. That's the only differenece.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #142
143. Just like a Chevrolet Impala is a "clone" of a NASCAR race car.
Edited on Fri May-01-09 10:59 AM by benEzra
They may look similar externally, but they are functionally not the same. Civilian AK's are built on civilian receivers, and use civilian bolt carriers and civilian fire-control parts. Functionally, a civilian AK is identical to a Ruger Mini Thirty intermediate-caliber deer rifle.

FWIW, I own a civilian AK derivative, and shoot competitively and recreationally with it. It works just like any other gas-operated civilian rifle.

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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
144. It's a fashion statement.
But outrageous 10-in high heels aren't designed to kill people.
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SecularNATION Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #144
149. So?
Some objects were designed for warfare. So what? Doesn't mean there aren't other uses. Yes, the original fully automatic AK-47 was designed for war. So were swords, crossbows, and any number of other things. Does that mean they should be prohibited by the government?
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #149
150. When a gun worshiper chooses an "assaultish" weapon over a normally-styled one
it displays a profound sense of insecurity on his part.

All other things being equal, yes - a dangerous products should be banned by the govt. THAT'S WHAT WE PUT IT THERE FOR!
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. LOL. Is that why Olympic target shooters use "assaultish" weapons in competition?
Edited on Fri May-01-09 10:19 PM by benEzra
When a gun worshiper chooses an "assaultish" weapon over a normally-styled one

it displays a profound sense of insecurity on his part.

LOL. Is that why Olympic target shooters use "assaultish" weapons in competition? Because Olympic athletes are "profoundly insecure"?





And those vertical handgrips are "only useful for killing people" and only appeal to Rambo wannabes, yes?




:rofl:

And the top target shooters in America choose AR-15's because they look wicked and sinful to Puritanical eyes, and NOT because they are fantastically accurate, ergonomic, gentle to shoot, and modular?



BTW, quick question. Can you think of any reasons a shooter might choose a polymer adjustable stock over a walnut fixed-length stock BESIDES "a profound sense of insecurity"?

Like, you know, wanting a stock that adjusts for length?

I guess you also think the only reason that a shooter might choose a comfortable, ergonomic target-style handgrip, rather than a traditional straight stock that makes you bend your wrist like a chicken wing, is insecurity, too.

That's funny, right there...
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SecularNATION Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #150
153. "dangerous" products
Edited on Fri May-01-09 10:28 PM by SecularNATION
Well, that's a YES alright, baldguy. Ban those swords, crossbows, and anything else that can be deemed "dangerous" by the safety police. Tobacco, alcohol, fatty foods, fast cars, motorcycles, speedboats, etc. etc. etc. After all, THAT'S WHAT WE PUT IT THERE FOR!
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-04-09 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #153
161. bathtubs and swimming pools too
more kids die from drowning than firearms (unintentional and intentional) deaths
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-03-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #150
158. So you want firearm ergonomics to stay static? From, say, 1910 or so?
The protruding pistol grip on some rifles is generally considered more ergonomic than the "regular" grip, hence the development. When using your rifle as a spear or a club became a remote possibility, the military switched over to pistol grips on their rifles.

I personally like the traditional inline-stock, but I spend far more time taking about guns than shooting them. In fact, I haven't shot a long gun in almost 5 years.


The other aspects of an "assaultish" rifle are aspects that are desirable to pretty much all guns: ease of dissassembly and reassembly, reliability in feeding, firing, and ejection, accuracy, etc. And are you really going to be upset because the gun is designed to mount a flashlight or laser sight under the barrel?


You're basically cranky because the gun does well what a gun should do!
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-01-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. I do own one "weapon of war" that was "designed to kill people"...
Edited on Fri May-01-09 10:21 PM by benEzra
This one.



It's a Finnish M39 built on a 1905-dated Russian M1891 hex receiver still bearing the imperial crest of the Czar.

It likely saw action in World War I, possibly the Bolshevik revolution and the Finnish breakaway, definitely helped defend Finland from the Soviets in 1939-1940, and probably helped kick the Nazis out of Finland in 1944-1945. The highest sight setting is 2.0 kilometers/2000 meters, and it's twice as powerful as an AK-47.

It's also a bolt-action, functionally identical to both a high-powered sniper rifle and a deer rifle (which are essentially the same thing).

My SAR-1, however, is NOT a weapon of war, was NOT designed or manufactured to kill people, and has never been used by any military on this planet:



It is, however, an excellent rifle, combining the all-around versatility of a .30-30 Winchester with a more rugged and durable design, detachable magazines, and improved capacity.

(And no, it's not an actual AK-47, since AK-47's are as tightly controlled in the USA as howitzers and bombs are.)
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-02-09 12:43 PM
Response to Original message
154. He's right, too NT
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