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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:54 PM
Original message
How far we have come...
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 06:55 PM by virginia mountainman
The Next Step for Gun Control
Published: Saturday, July 9, 1994

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/07/09/opinion/the-next-step-for-gun-control.html

Take careful note of date....

Hopefully, we can keep another editorial from being published like that,I much preferred the "hand wringing" one I read the other day.
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep, we must be ever vigilant against the gun grabbers.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Remember "Brady II" ? It was mentioned in the article above..
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 07:02 PM by virginia mountainman
Man O Man, it was outrageous.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
3. Thank goodness!
I love the oh-so-smug attitude. I'd love to see their faces now.
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yep, that artical was written at the "high water" mark for;
Gun Control.....It has been all down hill from their (for the Brady Campaign)

Those where dark days for us gun owners.
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Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wow....the '94 AWB was the NRA's Alamo
.....it finally became the political force Harlon Carter had envisioned.



It was helped along greatly when anti-gun polititians were more than eagar to shit talk the 2nd and demonize gun owners in front of cameras.
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Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
5. NBC News laments popularity of "Black Rifles"
Edited on Tue Apr-14-09 07:47 PM by Pullo
This is from over a year ago, a story NBC News ran about the popularity of AR-15's.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM7dy7JbsX8


Notice how the story portrays the sales boom was created because the ban expired in '04. Anybody paying attention knows the "black rifle" boom started with the '94 ban.

Its also quick to point out how the DC snipers used used a black rifle, but completely fails to mention that gun was purchased new - wait for it - during the ban.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. And still with the schtick..
..about pistol grips being about firing from the hip.

Cripes, wrap your hand around an unopened can of soda. With your hand down at your waist, which is more comfortable- holding the can vertical at an awkward angle (pistol grip) or holding it horizontal (straight stock)? At the level of your waist, horizontal grips make sense, at your shoulder, vertical grip make sense.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-14-09 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
7. Never underestimate the power of armed citizens who are determined to defend themselves. n/t
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tucsonlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. Who Said That?
Wait. Don't tell me.....I know - David Koresh! Right? No? Um....Randy Weaver!! Wrong again? Hmmmm...Michele Bachmann? Mahatma Gandhi?.....

Anyhow, Congratulations! Victory!! The AWB is officially off the table! And it's all thanks to you and your right-wing handlers. So now that the battle has been won, why not do us all a favor and announce the good news to your gullible and paranoid followers. Thank them for a job well done, shout "Mission Accomplished!" and reassure them that "Since Obama has agreed to temporarily postpone his plan to take away your guns, the hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammo you recently purchased and stockpiled should be sufficient to protect our liberty and freedom. For a couple of months, anyway."
Maybe then us gun owners who prefer reality to your world of fantasy, falsehoods and fear mongering will be able to find a couple of boxes of semi wadcutters on the shelves and be free to go plinking again.

And don't you find it ironic that this sudden scarcity of firearms and ammunition, along with their skyrocketing prices, was caused not by those evil "gun-grabbers", but by you. You are solely and undeniably responsible - You who encouraged panic buying and hoarding; you who flamed the fires of fear and paranoia.

For me and thousands of others, you have effectively revoked and/or restricted our RKBA.

Nice going.


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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Someone's got their panties all in a wad
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Do you need to call for medical help? n/t
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Um...
"Since Obama has agreed to temporarily postpone his plan to take away your guns".

Just checking but if it is only temporary wouldn't it makes sense to continue to stockpile?

Obama could come out tomorrow and say "AWB served no law enforcement purpose. I will veto any AWB to comes across my desk".

He hasn't however.

I think due to a combination of lack of support and other priorities the AWB along with other draconian gun control is off the table until after midterm elections but nothing indicates that antis won't still push an AWB and if it reaches his desk Obama likely WILL sign it.
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tucsonlib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Re: "Just checking but if it is only temporary wouldn't it makes sense to continue to stockpile?"
Sense? Only if 10 thousand rounds makes you feel "safer". Or maybe more "free"? And if 10 thousand rounds is good, 100 thou oughta make ya feel like a real patriot, eh?

You call it stockpiling. I call it hoarding. It's selfish, pointless and idiotic. And those who do it deserve to be labeled Gun-Nuts.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Who the hell has ten thousand rounds? I'd like to visit them.
Certainly they can't miss a few hundred. I've only got 80 at home, and that's plenty for the moment.
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inkool Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. How may round do I need to be a gun nut?
It does not take that long to get up to 10k rounds for someone who target shoots often or is in competitions.

I am not up to 10k yet, but I can foresee being there some day. Ammunition has a very long shelf life and can be expensive. With that in mind I buy when it is on sale and in bulk to save money.

I do the same with most consumable good I buy.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. Damn, I *wish* I had bought a few thousand rounds at $99/1K
instead of the $250-$300/1K it is now.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. Yeah, Jody, it is ALL YOUR fault! Now say you're sorry, so we can buy more ammo again!
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 07:47 AM by jmg257
;)

I need more rounds for my .32acp.
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. I'm blaming you!
I need some test ammo for my annual qualification and it's a bit difficult to find. A little 9mm a bunch of .45 and a dash of 12 gauge, you'd think it would be a simple. Times like this I wish I were an ammo hoarder.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Hmm...you SAY you didn't hoard, but how do I know? I think it's your fault!
Seriously, that sucks. You don't get qualification ammo supplied to you? We had a great sargent, handed out all kinds of 'practice' stuff (small pd though). I have boxes of 9mm from like 20 years ago, when that "subsonic" shit was popular. (not alot mind you, but some)
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jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Specials pay their own way.
They used to give us enough details to pay for the stuff but with the state of the economy that isn't happening. Yeah, I pay for each and every round. Oh, and we have to pass the hat to pay our instructors a little something even though they'd do it for free. I have to make up our targets tonight after church.

It's all fun and games like that until they need a transport or have a huge detail and need bodies. Then all of a sudden we're vital members of the team and all that. If I weren't so hooked on it I'd sell all my gear and call it a day.

That ID card that says I'm a cop is nice for carry in all fifty states. Oh, and I really like giving back to a community that has given me so much. And then there's part of me that feels strongly that local police departments should be made up of regular citizens who have interests outside the institutional survival of the police department. And then there's that feeling of pride you get when you get a chance to really make the law work the way it's "supposed" to work, priceless.

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Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
15. There was no ammo/gun shortage until the 1994 AWB.
The anti 2nd amendment folks prove they really do want to take away guns. And they have proved they still want to.
They caused the shortage.
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jmg257 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
13. But it's all NRA/RW propaganda, remember? Move along. Nothing to see here.
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 07:45 AM by jmg257
Hopefully, the internet will keep the pro-gun public well aware of what is coming this time.
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dairydog91 Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. You forgot Brady II: The Brady Bunch Strikes Back
Edited on Wed Apr-15-09 11:01 AM by dairydog91
It would have brought magazine size down to 6 rounds (Anything more and the mag was legally a Class 3 device), and imposed restrictions on the maximum number of guns one could own. Anything more than 20 guns or 1000 rounds would have been an "arsenal", which would require a license and was open to random inspections by the police. By the way, under Brady II "gun" was legally defined as any individual gun, magazine, or major firearm part. So an AR-15, four magazines, and a replacement barrel would legally be counted as six firearms.

http://www.nytimes.com/1994/09/19/opinion/l-brady-bill-2-would-overhaul-gun-business-272728.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss">NY Times Bit on Brady II
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/brady2.html">Brady Bill II (Actual Text)
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virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Boy,there is a juicy Sara Brady quote in that article!!
More important, it represents an end to incrementalism. The Brady law has proved a tremendous success in keeping guns out of criminal hands at the retail level. And the recent ban on military-style assault weapons will have a similar impact. The essence of Brady 2 is responsibility -- from gun makers, dealers and owners. SARAH BRADY Chairwoman, Handgun Control Inc. Washington, Sept. 14, 1994


That flies in the face of some of the BULLSHIT she and her minions has been sprouting as of late..
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Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. The NRA was undergoing full-blown internecine warfare in the early '90s
Its was disorganized, and lacking direction. The anti's felt emboldened, as they mistakenly felt the NRA's influence was waning. But their key error was the inability understand where the organization's political power comes from. Its not from the NRA's leadership, lobbyists, or money, its from gun owners. In autum of '94, gun owners didn't rely on the NRA's leadership to stop the Brady's, they took things into their own hands.

Here's a some clips from an article I dug up about the conflict going on inside the NRA, which is far from sympathetic.
http://www.franksmyth.com/A5584C/clients/franksmyth/frankS2.nsf/ad6eb2ddfbe72a8285256b6c00561193/e45165e76e92dfba85256b7b00790691?OpenDocument">Crossfire: The War Behind the Closed Doors of the NRA
by Frank Smyth, June 1994

For three days of its annual convention last month the National Rifle Association (NRA) paraded its cheerful public face, showing off such varied supporters as actors Richard Roundtree and Paul Sorvino, baby-toting housewives, gospel singers, and an African American policewoman. And when that was done, the 123-year-old group convened its annual board of directors meeting in Ballroom D of the Hilton Hotel. Unbeknownst to the 74 directors, eight officers, and 25-odd NRA staff and VIP members assembled, the Voice was present, there to witness the inner workings of the most powerful single-issue lobby in the nation.

Most of the people in the room were beefy white men. And the atmosphere was tense. The NRA's eight executive officers sat behind banquet tables on a raised platform, looking down on the assembled board. The printed agenda called for reports by each executive officer -- but surprinsingly, all but the treasurer claimed to be unprepared. Lack of preparation, however, had nothing to do with it. Everyone was anxiously awaiting the nominating committee's report on its choice for the NRA presidency. Normally, this is matter of simple procedure, as the NRA rotates officers in an established order of succession. Tradition dictated that 1st Vice President Thomas L. Washington, a big-game hunter from Michigan, should be president next.

But this year was different, thanks to the behind-the-scenes maneuverings of NRA firebrand Neal Knox, who is far more powerful than his position as a board member would suggest. As the rumors swirling throughout the convention for days hinted, Knox had exercised his influence on the nominating panel. Instead of Washington, committee chair T.J. Johnston nominated 2nd Vice President Marion P. Hammer, a hard-nosed, 55-year-old grandmother who helped pass the law in Florida that allows modestly trained residents to carry loaded guns. The motion for Hammer was seconded and opened to discussion.

"This is nothing more than a total power struggle. It's a palace coup," Robert K. Brown protested to the board. As a hardline gun advocate, and the editor and publisher of the mercenary magazine Soldier of Fortune, Brown should know.

The internecine conflict was further evidence of the growing crisis at the NRA, which has 3.3 million dues-paying members and assets of $160 million. Last year, it spent a whopping $22.4 million on lobbying alone. The NRA supports political candidates who abide by its views, and mercilessly tries to punish those who don't. Its appetite for loyalty is insatiable: Republica senator Robert Dole, an NRA member and honored guest at its banquet in 1986, has been branded a traitor for softening on gun control.

Once considered the most powerful lobby in Washington, the NRA is on the defensive now. For decades, it has succeeded in crushing almost any form of gun control legislation, but the recent passage of the Brady law and the success of the "assault weapons" ban bill in both the House and Senate confront the NRA with its most severe challenge yet. The gun-owning community it purports to represent has split, with fissures between sport shooters and Second Amendment "fundamentalists" cracking visibly open for the first time. All major national law enforcement organizations have already withdrawn their support from the NRA. Dissent is also on the rise internally, with many of its, state associations directly challenging national leaders. Meanwhile, most dues-paying NRA members have little sense of how the organization is run .....

..... In the race for the NRA board of directors in 1991, Knox and his slate succeeded in winning 11 of 21 open seats, with nine more hard-liners led by Soldier of Fortune's Brown taking all but one that remained. Knox also enjoyed support among incumbents. Pugnacious and unapologetic, he was back .....

..... It is a measure of Knox's grip that, even in the midst of heated debate, not one elected director raised the substantive issues about his administration. Much of the criticism comes from other hard-line gun rights activists who believe that he is misinanaging, some say destroying, the NRA. This view is growing among state-affiliated NRA leaders, and even among veteran staff members of the organization .....

..... But apart from mismanagement, much of the criticism also has to do with the NRA's ardent defense of the Second Amendment. On this point, the gun-owning community that the NRA claims to represent is now split wide open. And some hunters, a potentially large group, believe that it's time the NRA returned to its sporting purpose -- promoting marksmanship, collecting, and other forms of gun-related recreation.

David E. Petzal, for one, thinks the present radicalization of the NRA is hurting the interests of gun owners. Petzal, who has given thousands of dollars to the NRA, writes the "Endangered Tradition" column in Field and Stream, another centenarian institution, many of whose 2 million readers are also in the NRA. This June, the magazine made a landmark decision to break with the NRA. "it took tremendous courage," says executive editor Petzal.

"The bugle call known as reveille is a cheerful, energetic tune that, when I was in the Army, few soldiers actually got to hear," he writes in an editorial. "Real-world reveille came for gun owners this February," in the form of the assault weapons ban. Petzall like the NRA, believes that this legislation is too broad. This is partly because it would ban weapons like "the AR-15/M-16, and the MIA in modified form, which are highly accurate, and have a legitimate place in organized target competition."

But assault weapons are also implicated in terrible acts of violence, like the Stockton, California, shooting in which a deranged man killed five children and wounded 29 others using a semiautomatic AK-47 clone. "Gun owners -- all gun owners -- pay a heavy price for having to defend the availability of these weapons," writes Petzal. "The American public -- and the gun-owning public; especially the gun-owning public -- would be better off without the hardcore military arms, which puts the average sportsman in a real dilemma" Petzal concludes by advocating compromise, something that Knox and other members of his regime say they will never accept .....


Notice how the VPC's Sugarmann had succeeded not only in playing on the ignorance of the public and press about "assault weapons," but had split the NRA itself. Just imagine where we'd be at today had this been anything other than a limited and temporary setback.

..... The NRA is bleeding -- but like any wounded beast, it is likely to be more dangerous now than before. Knox's radicalism may not win him any friends in Congress, but incendiary rhetoric is still a force to reckon with .....


It seems the champaign corks were starting to pop at the demise of NRA.

As the saying goes, however, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."

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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-15-09 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger."
.. and now only 20% of gun owners hunt, and the AR-15 or derivatives are the most popular rifles in the US, being used for home defense, target shooting, and yes, even hunting.

Who'da thunk it?

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