What are the gun buyers afraid of?

[SHRED]

Hell they cheer on our government:

Labeling anyone as an "enemy combatant" and then...
Removing Habeus Corpus
Indefinite imprisonment
Extraordinary Rendition
Torturing
Spying on Americans

Not a peep during these Bush years events.

---

Yet somehow they "fear" the government to the point of record setting gun purchasing when a black man with a "D" after his name takes office.

I guess as long as the Prez has an "R" after his name then everything is OK.

---

[baldguy]

1. They think their pop-gun will protect them from the full might of the $600 billion/yr US Military.

They forget - or ignore, dismiss - the fact that this is a republic. The only REAL way to protect your rights is to participate in the electoral process.

[SHRED]

2. and yet another irony

I would wager quite a few, if not the majority, are ex-military and law enforcement.

The very wings the government would use to go after them.

[old mark]

8. I don't agree with that - although some might be. Many are just

kind of dumb guys - and women - who have never had much in life and believe that somehow someone has taken things from them that they deserve. They are remarkabky disassociated from the reality most of us experience in America - they claim to cherish small town "family" values, but mostly they are repressed angry haters of anyone they feel is different - blacks, democrats, gays, different religions, different regions, etc. Yet there are many other pro gun people who are regular everyday people just like you who have rights to self defence and who choose to use that right as you take opportunities to use your right of free speech.

mark

[Hangingon]

31. What a crock of horse shit!

[spin]

40. And exactly how many firearm owners do you know?

[Hangingon]

44. Quite a few.

Obviously i know many, many more than you do.

[spin]

52. I would doubt that...

I've enjoyed the sport of shooting for forty five years and regularly shot at many target ranges through the years.

Shooters compose a wide cross section of our society. I've known doctors, lawyers, ministers, factory workers, taxicab drivers, teachers, truck drivers, police officers, members of the military, college students etc, etc who owned firearms and loved to shoot. Old Mark pointed out that while there are some who are racist and angry, most are "regular everyday people just like you who have rights to self defense and who choose to use that right as you take opportunities to use your right of free speech."

I should point out that minorities were always welcome to shoot on the range. I introduced several to shooting and they found an enjoyable hobby and made friends at the range. Most of the really good shooters would bend over backward to help other newbie shooters learn the skill required. Race, gender, religion and sexual preference were irrelevant.

I do remember one individual that we were unfriendly to. His comments and attitude toward others led us to believe that he was quite possibly a member of a radical militia organization. He took the hint and went elsewhere.

I live in Florida where gun ownership is VERY common. Almost everyone I worked with owned at least one firearm, many had gun collections and a large number had concealed carry permits. The majority of my neighbors own firearms. Since I've moved to a rural area of Florida, hunters are very common. Deer and hog are the game of choice and since many of these people are relatively poor, provide an important part of their diet.

If indeed you know as many shooters as you say, I suspect that you may suffer from a form of prejudice that applies to those who chose to own firearms for sport, hunting or self defense. Or it could be that since many shooters are Republican, you despise their political views. While you may disagree on their ideology, if you were fair you might find them good people. You might find them misguided, but you could try to open their eyes to your views on many topics.

Of course, the firearm owners you know may use their weapons primarily for criminal enterprise. In that case I can understand your revulsion. If so, you need to broaden your circle of acquaintances.

[Hangingon]

62. I think you, me and Old Mark are more or less on the same line.

I have been involved in shooting and hunting for 60 years. I belong to three shooting clubs and hunt regularly. I am also a Texas chl holder - guns are as common here as Florida. I take exception to SHRED.

[spin]

65. Well between us, we've put a lot of rounds downrange...

I am curious as to your reply to old mark. Why did you label it as "a crock"?

If I had any criticism of his post it would have been directed to the statement, Many are just kind of dumb guys - and women - who have never had much in life and believe that somehow someone has taken things from them that they deserve. They are remarkabky disassociated from the reality most of us experience in America - they claim to cherish small town "family" values...

I met very few shooters who fit this description, perhaps because my shooting was at ranges located in large urban areas. I just recently retired and moved to a more rural area. Yet the people I've met here who own guns strike me as good people who love hunting. Hunting and college football are the two main topics of conversation.

(Note: I'm unfamiliar with the acronym SHRED.)

[Caliman73]

76. Not an acronym

That is the username of the poster who said most of the people purchasing firearms are ex military and LE to which exception was taken.

The problem is that a run is a run. Once a run starts, everybody gets in on it. I have been scouring the internet, and shops for ammo too. I work in social services, am pro-choice, pro-women's rights, anti-death penalty, pro-minority rights, LGBT rights, etc... I shoot. I own firearms for sport and self defense.

There was some validity to the idea that the new administration was potentially looking to further restrict gun ownership. So far is has proven untrue as they have backed away recently from enacting new laws. However, the idea is already in people's heads and a shortage increases demand. Just like a run on the banks would spread and grow as in the 1930's. It is mass activity. Hopefully more will be done to assure gun owners that new restrictions aren't forthcoming so that calm will prevail.

Typically people who are irrationally opposed to private gun ownership will present the most extreme arguments and will be undeterred by logic, common sense, or facts.

[spin]

83. The run on firearms reminds me of the run on toilet paper...

Well, whether you believe it or not, there was a toilet paper shortage in the United States in 1973. The entire episode started with a Johnny Carson Tonight Show monologue. On December 19, 1973, the writers for the show had heard earlier the federal government was falling behind in getting bids to supply toilet paper and that it might be possible that in a few months the United States could face a shortage of toilet tissue. They took the words of this Wisconsin congressional representative, Harold Froehlich and decided to add a joke for Carson for the evening show.

Carson did in fact use the joke in a monologue stating, "You know what's disappearing from the supermarket shelves? Toilet paper. There's an acute shortage of toilet paper in the United States."

Much to the amazement of not only the show but of toilet paper factories across America, 20 million people that watched the Carson show that evening ran out in the morning and bought as much toilet paper as they could carry. By noon on December 20, 1973, practically every store in America was out of stock. Many of the stores tried to ration this valuable paper but they could not keep up with the demand no matter what they did.
http://thelongestlistofthelongeststuffatthelongestdomainnameatlonglast.com/trivia74.html

While I knew the paper shortage was bogus, I still had to buy more toilet paper than normal (when I could find it). The alternate choices such as a Sears Catalog were not appealing.

[Hangingon]

86. SHRED was thye original poster

Yep, I have know some shooters who fit the desc ription " Many are just kind of dumb guys - and women - who have never had much in life and believe that somehow someone has taken things from them that they deserve They are remarkabky disassociated from the reality most of us experience in America - they claim to cherish small town "family" values... " I have found a few of those people in the golf, aviation, fishing communities too. I suspect the are in all areas of society. I didn't like that part of Old Mark's psot either.

[jmg257]

38. Hmm...wonder if they know something you don't??

[one-eyed fat man]

85. nice anti-veteran bias............

goes right along with Janet Napolitano and her official assessment stating that American combat veterans are a threat to the country.

That elitist bullshit of "military service is only for hicks" should have no place in the Democratic party.

[one-eyed fat man]

99. didn't you get the memo?

Janet Napolitano already said veterans were right wing terrorists.

Back in 1994 a Navy War College student circulated a survey as part of a research paper he was writing.

http://www.29palmssurvey.com/survey.html

The speed with which reports and rumors of this survey percolated through the military community was amazing. That it was being discussed at Fort Knox, Kentucky by Army tank crewmen within a week of being administered to Marine infantrymen at Twenty-nine Palms, California is testimony to the stir it caused. Just freshly retired from active duty then, many of my fellow soldiers and I were troubled not only by the questions but also who wanted to know the answers and why. That the questions were framed in the context of confiscation of firearms from American citizens was especially alarming.

One thing was clear, the whole premise of the survey caused a lot of debate among service members and it was clear that in any scenario where such orders were issued some level mutiny was highly probable.

[cliffordu]

22. Smartest fucking answer on this question EVAH.

:applause:

[Lorien]

24. That always struck me. Why does Billy Joe buy a whole arsenal

expecting to "defend" his home against the might of the U.S military. How many guns can he manage at one time? Meanwhile he just raised the risk of being killed by a gun in his own home 40 fold. I had one friend whose four year old boy got into his gun collection and accidentally killed himself. My friend then took his own life with that same gun a few years later. Gun hoarding gives a person a VERY false sense of security.

[kudzu22]

117. So do gun laws n/t

[jmg257]

36. More likely they fear such a notion is even necessary - that they would need protection from their

own military.

Now THAT is scary!

[Xenotime]

122. And, to let the militia take care of security.

[Fuzz]

3. Nearly everything

[Lex]

4. Blacks, gays, immigrants, solar power, organic food, and their own shadow

basically everything. I've never seen a more scaredy-cat bunch in my life.

[Motown_Johnny]

6. beat me to it...

and yes, everything is the easy answer

[Richard Steele]

14. Ultimately, they are afraid of thinking for themselves.

They scream real loud about their "fierce independence",
while they cling blindly to the poison teat of any authoritarian
willing to tell them WHAT to scream, and when to scream it.

[Zenlitened]

48. Ding!!!

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. Should they believe the President? If so what should they believe.

[Hoopla Phil]

71. Are you referring to the contradiction between the speeches and the web site?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

72. or the speeches and the other speeches, or the admin officials and the other admin officials.

[krispos42]

74. Or perhaps the contradiction...

...in the Democrats, who have historically worked towards more personal freedom, putting such a contradictory plank in their party platform.


Okay, the reich wing will explain this away as environmentalism taking away rights to pollute, or whatever. Banning trans-fats. Anti-smoking campaigns or whatever.

:shrug:


Doubtless the anti-gun democrats see their work in the vein as water-purification standards, inter-racial marriage, or the 40-hour work week... "we know it's good for everybody so we're going to push it through".


A new "Assault Weapons Ban" is part of The Official Democratic Party Platform so it's no surprise it's on a website someplace... after all, the proponents have unanimously declared it "reasonable", so it must be true, right?

[Iktomiwicasa]

104. Authoritarian?

:rofl:

It's the gun grabbers who are in love with authoritarianism.

[Bigmack]

5. They are afraid of a black....

President.... who is a Muslim.... born in Kenya.... who's a Marxist/socialist/fascist....

Oh.... and he's Black, too.

Dumbshits!

[rrneck]

7. "Gun buyers" are not some

monolithic group defined only by guns. To assert such is to indulge in bigotry.

A lot of gun buyers are Republican wing nuts who fear a Democratic president will restrict the purchase of firearms.

A lot of gun buyers are, and have been, Democrats who saw their civil rights eroded by the Bush administration and thought it not a bad idea to establish a last line of defense.

A lot of gun buyers see an investment opportunity. You know, supply and demand and all that.

There has been a trend toward the codification of the ownership and proper management of firearms in this country for several years now. The Supreme Court, state legislation, and the marketplace seem to indicate that Americans are trying to work out how to deal with a difficult to regulate piece of dual use technology. Crying about it and insulting people won't help.

[ET Racer]

18. Thank you

As a hunter and experienced shooter who IS always shopping for a gun bargain,
I really resent the inclusion in miguided angst over those who are buying firearms.
Wasn't that long ago everybody was gonna retire on thier Benie Baby riches...

[DustyJoe]

43. agreed

And a lot of gun owners live in sparse rural areas and do own multiple guns.

Around here I know of many that own a shotgun,
a deer rifle,
and a .22 for varmints

I count myself among these. I am also a veteran, not disgruntled or mad at anyone, but do not consider these guns anything other than normal country living. Not hoarding or weapons caches, or gun nut.

[Caliman73]

77. True

The problem is, as with Prohibition, people are trying to regulate complex behaviors with the regulation of objects. Complex problems need more thoughtful solutions. Regarding "gun buyers" as I said in another post, I work in social services, have been a Democratic party voter since I registered at 18. I consider myself liberal and have participated in many ways to promote progressive causes. Because I own firearms for sport and self defense I am suddenly considered the same as racist right wing crazies? That just shows the limits in thinking of some people.

[CountAllVotes]

9. they are afraid of themselves

and the rotten destinies they create with their stupid guns. :puke:

Note: No dead bodies/mass killing of families today YET in the USA.

:dem:

[FailureToCommunicate]

12. "No dead bodies yet today"? "Death by gun" has claimed 36 since midnight. 82 per day

on average. Around 30,000 killed with a gun each year. But hey, Congress loves the NRA. Why rock the boat. "Let's blame it on the REASON folks use guns: 'mental problems' "

[CountAllVotes]

15. thanks for correcting me

sad as all hell isn't it? We must shoot one another these days. If you have a mental problem, no problem - go buy a damn gun! :sarcasm: (well .... not really) ... :(

:dem:

[cliffordu]

23. yawn.

[SsevenN]

101. Psssst.

Hey gun-grabbers, your ignorance is showing.:rofl:

[backwoodsbob]

102. guns since I was twelve

haven't shot anyone yet.

Around here guns aren't something you think of any different than the chainsaw or tractor.It's a tool and nothing else.

[gratuitous]

10. What are they afraid of?

Whatcha got?

[jody]

11. Your subject suggests gross ignorance of the RKBA issue. Govt. is not obligated to protect an

individual unless she/he is in custody, i.e. self-defense is a personal responsibility.

Over 800,000 sworn law enforcement officers use handguns for self defense including semiautomatics.

Obama supports renewing the ill-named Assault Weapons Ban (AWB) that could effectively ban semiautomatic firearms if the bill is like H.R. 1022 that died in the last congress.

Obama and his gun-grabber supporters propose taxing and restricting ammunition such that it would effectively be unavailable.

Suggest you participate in lively discussions on DU's Guns forum.

When attacked by a criminal and seconds count, police are only minutes away.\

RKBA (Right to Keep and Bear Arms)

[east texas lib]

13. Why don't you buy one and find out?

Be sure to give us an update.;-)

[Lex]

16. So buying one triggers the fear?

Interesting theory.

[east texas lib]

21. Unknown...

I haven't bought one in several years. I do enjoy watching the debate, however.

[Scout]

113. yup

and of course, if you shoot a gun, well then you will grok the gun nuts and become one of them!

bwaaaaa haaaaa haaaa haaaa! :rofl:

[hack89]

17. They fear attacks on their constitutional rights. nt

[frebrd]

19. Quite a few of us are Liberals/Dems who don't fit into.....

any of the OP's categories and choose to avail themselves of their Constitutional rights. I for one enjoy target shooting. I also live at least a half-hour's wait away from any law enforcement assistance (and that's before the expected imminent layoff of four deputies).

I'm not afraid, just sensible.

[alarimer]

20. The live in some Red Dawn fantasy world.

Gun nuts are little people, afraid of everything.

[DustyJoe]

45. tell that

to my neighbor across the road shooting coyotes mauling his goats in the goat pen. He would have had a 'red dawn' if he hadn't used a 'gasp' firearm. Darn hungry coyotes and Mtn. Lions around here don't take to you opening your door and yelling 'scat'.

[gorfle]

94. Do you consider...

Do you consider our founders, who wrote the second amendment, to be "gun nuts" and "little people" who were "afraid of everything"?

If not, why do you consider people who support the second amendment to be "gun nuts" and "little people" who are "afraid of everything"?

[jmg257]

25. Not finding a good deal on a decent weapon when they want one

and, much worse - losing the opportunity to ever buy that weapon.

[Tejas]

34. Come on jmg257, enough with common sensible answers,

you know good and well that's not what the OP wants to hear.

:rofl:

[jmg257]

39. Well - I just figured the question wasn't rhetorical...who knew?

[Caliman73]

78. Unfortunately the OP and people like the OP don't tend to hear anything

the presents firearms and firearms owners in an objective light. Some people are so prejudiced against things that they block out any information that challenges their assumptions.

[inwiththenew]

26. The reason for the big rush now

Can be split into two groups with some overlap among them. Group 1 is the buy it while I can before they ban it group and Group 2 is the buy now and sell it at a higher price.

[spin]

41. With real estate and the stock marker going in the dumpster...

investors are looking at firearms, ammo and gold.

I'm hoping they create another "bubble". When it bursts, I'll be able to pick up some real good deals on an evil looking, black "assault weapon" and enjoy taking it to the range for some target shooting.

[Mari333]

27. Miscegenation!

[X_Digger]

28. Much easier to group all 'others' under one banner..

..so that you can make fun of them. Two dimensional cutouts are much more fun to throw darts at.

About half of all gun owners are dems / independents, and gun owners cut across all classes of US society.

[Tejas]

35. True - go to any NFA shoot and

one will indeed see a cross-section of society, no lines drawn as to race/creed/etc.

[X_Digger]

37. Or even your local gun range..

I went to bass pro shops pistol range a couple of weeks ago, and in the stall to the right of me were an older, well dressed white couple trying out a couple of handguns. To the left was a 'good ol boy' with a revolver of some sort. To the left of him were a couple of young black guys with a semi-automatic. On my way out, I looked at those in line for the range- a soccer mom, a black guy and his teenage son, a white guy in business casual..

[L0oniX]

29. Do not post broad-brush - statements ...see DU rules.

About half the DU members own guns so just who are you attacking?

[Tejas]

32. correct - the OP is as transparent as it gets

Funny how firearms collectors are so easily swept aside, far easier to just accuse anyone with an actual collection of being a knuckle-dragging militant that dares the gubmint to try and take them away.

[Zenlitened]

49. I think the OP is attacking the hordes of people who...

... ran out to buy guns and ammo of every sort, when it became clear the black-librull-democrat was going to be president.

The ones motivated by fear and paranoia.

In other words, the gun *nuts.*

[SHRED]

53. This is exactly what I meant...THANK YOU

[X_Digger]

55. Is it paranoid to buy on the expectation of scarcity?

The last time a democrat had the white house and senate, the AWB was passed. Then candidate Obama talked about renewing the AWB, then moved that statement to change.gov after the election, then to whitehouse.gov after the inauguration.

Even now, we've had mixed statements from AG Holder, SoS Clinton, DHS Sec Napolitano, Sen Feinstein, Rep McCarthy, and now PA Gov Rendell. Not that any of those folks by themselves have the power to make a new AWB happen, but it does go to show that it's still on the agenda, just not a top priority.

The panic is out of proportion to the chances of an AWB, I'll grant you that. And it is counter-productive to those of us who were interested in these items to begin with.

[SHRED]

57. I was posting in response to people who propagate this...

...leaflet at gun shows.
The true hypocritical paranoids.
Not gun collectors or sports enthusiasts.

[X_Digger]

60. Yah, that's toucan sam grade fruit loopy. n/t

[Caliman73]

88. Perhaps you should have included that information in the OP

then asked what the firearm owning progressives who post on this site thought about it. Instead you posted a general statement that people who are currently buying firearms are all doing so out of irrational, and most likely racist fears. In regards to the leaflet, attributing those ideas to President Obama is certainly false and sensationalistic. It is propaganda to stir up fear and get people to act in a certain way. I can't speak for everyone, but I think that many of the posters in the Guns forum do not believe the propaganda. At this point we are just trying to secure the firearms and the ammunition that we want so that we can continue to participate in hobbies like target shooting, or hunting, and have self defense tools.

However, as I have said in other responses, there has been a history with President Obama of supporting gun laws that have not made any impact on violent crimes with guns, but have made the legal purchase and use of those firearms very difficult for people who were never inclined to commit crimes. Democratic party leaders have brought up their support of expanding restriction of firearms to please a relatively small, but very vocal group of people who, like most of us, are appalled by crime and violence, but who unlike many of us think that the solution is to merely take away a potential tool in crime, thinking that the violence will go away with it.

I think that many of the progressive and moderate posters on this forum are willing to engage in a reasoned discussion, but when names are called and labels are applied, when generalizations are made painting our characters, then the possibility of a reasonable debate is greatly minimized.

[gorfle]

95. Now let's take a close look at that ten point plan.

Now let's take a look at that ten point plan as published by the NRA.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/nra_targets_obama.html

1) Ban use of firearms for home defense.

"The NRA bases this overheated claim on a vote Obama cast on March 24, 2004, in the Illinois state Senate. He was one of 20 who opposed SB 2165. That bill, which passed 38 - 20 and became law, did not make it a crime to use firearms for self-defense, however. Rather, it created a loophole for persons caught violating local gun registration laws.

It states that in any Illinois municipality where a gun ban is in effect, it shall be an "affirmative defense" if the person accused of violating the ban can show that the weapon was used "in an act of self-defense or defense of another ... when on his or her land or in his or her abode or fixed place of business.""

So, President Obama voted against a law that would protect people who used a banned firearm to in self-defense or defense of another in their home or place of business.

Clearly, for President Obama, gun bans trump home defense.

2) Pass Federal laws eliminating your Right-to-Carry.

"Obama has called for national legislation against carrying concealed firearms..."

Obama has called for Federal legislation to eliminate your Right-to-Carry.

3) Ban the manufacture, sale, or possession of handguns.

"Obama says he does not support any such handgun ban and never has. He supports "reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns" (not manufacture) and has said a ban is not "politically practicable."

The NRA bases its claim on a disputed 1996 questionnaire that Obama's Illinois state Senate campaign filled out for the nonprofit voting group, Independent Voters of Illinois-Independent Precinct Organization. On it, somebody filled in the word "yes" in response to the question, "Do you support legislation to ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns?" But the Obama campaign said that the survey was actually filled out by his then-campaign manager who "unintentionally mischaracterized his position," adding that Obama never saw the survey."

Riiiight. Obama didn't say it, one of his staffers did. But later, Obama said:

"Obama, 2003: While a complete ban on handguns is not politically practicable, I believe reasonable restrictions on the sale and possession of handguns are necessary to protect the public safety. In the Illinois Senate last year, I supported a package of bills to limit individual Illinoisans to purchasing one handgun a month; require all promoters and sellers at firearms shows to carry a state license; allow civil liability for death or injuries caused by handguns; and require FOID applicants to apply in person. I would support similar efforts at the federal level, including retaining the Brady Law.""

Note here that he doesn't say that a complete ban on handguns is not proper, he says it is not politically practicable.

I think it's pretty clear here that as soon as President Obama found it to be politically practicable, he would implement such a ban.

4) Close down 90% of the gun shops in America.

"This claim also is based on the1999 Defender article. It reported Obama was pushing "all federally licensed gun dealers sell firearms in a storefront and not from their homes while banning their business from being within five miles of a school or a park." The NRA states that the 5-mile limit would have resulted in the closing of 90 percent of gun shops in the country. But as a U.S. senator Obama hasn't pushed for a 5-mile limit and isn't proposing one as part of his presidential campaign.

We asked the Obama campaign about his current position on imposing a five-mile limit on gun shops but have received no response."

5) Ban rifle ammunition commonly used for hunting and sport shooting.

"This claim is based on Obama's vote on S. 397 in the U.S. Senate. Obama was one of 31 senators who voted in favor of S. Amdt. 1615 to S. 397 which sought to "expand the definition of armor piercing ammunition."

The amendment applied only to handgun ammunition "capable of penetrating body armor" and to rifle ammunition that is "designed or marketed as having armor piercing capability," however."

There is a lot of waffling here that you can read at the above link where the folks at Fact Check attempt to backpedal and claim that this is only about handgun ammunition, or "high velocity" ammunition, or "marketed as armor piercing" ammunition.

The bottom line here is this is clearly an attempt to ban ammunition based on the criteria of penetrating body armor. Since just about any rifle ammunition can do this, you're setting yourself up on a slippery slope. And it's obvious where this is going.

6) Increase Federal Taxes on Guns and Ammunition by 500 Percent.

"This claim is based on an article that appeared in the Chicago Defender on Dec. 13, 1999, when Obama was in the Illinois state Senate. According to the Defender, at an anti-gun rally, Obama "outlined his anti-gun plan," which, among other things, sought to "increase the federal taxes by 500 percent on the sale of firearm, ammunition -- weapons he says are most commonly used in firearm deaths." As a U.S. senator, however, Obama has not pushed for any such tax on ammunition.

We asked the Obama campaign about his position on an ammunition tax but have received no response."

7) Restore Voting Rights for Five Million Criminals Including Those Who Have been Convicted of Using a Gun to Commit a Violent Crime.

"Mostly true: We could find no NRA citation to back up this statement. We note, however, that Obama was a cosponsor of the Count Every Vote Act of 2007. The section of the legislation, "Sec. 701. Voting Rights of Individuals Convicted of Criminal Offenses," states that the purpose of Title VII of the legislation was "to restore fairness in the Federal election process by ensuring that ex-offenders who have fully served their sentences are not denied the right to vote.""

8) Expand the Clinton Semi-Auto Weapons Ban to Include Millions More Firearms

Since it's part of his published Urban Policy to renew the Assault Weapons Ban, and, given how ineffective it was the first time around, it's a pretty safe bet that if re-enacted it would be much more sweeping than the first go-around.

9) Mandate a Government-Issued License to Purchase a Firearm.

"Misleading: Obama indeed has spoken in favor of licensing handguns, but so far as we can determine he hasn't called for registration of hunting weapons. And he's said a national gun registration law isn't politically possible: "I just don't think we can get that done.""

Note that he doesn't say, "I just don't think that's right.". He says, "I just don't think we can get that done." This implies to me that if he did think he could get it done, he'd be all over it.

10) Appoint Judges to the U.S. Supreme Court and Federal Judiciary Who Share His Views on the Second Amendment

Presidents generally appoint judges who share their political views. I think it's pretty clear what President Obama's political views are concerning firearms. I think it's a pretty safe bet that when he has the opportunity to appoint such judges, he will appoint ones who match his own politics, and that probably doesn't bode well for the right to keep and bear arms.

[kudzu22]

118. I hate to break it to you

but Mr. Obama has supported legislation to ban all semi-automatics (#8), handguns (#3), concealed carry (#2), and FFLs within five miles of a school or a park, which is 90% of the current FFLs (#4). Ted Kennedy supported banning of any cartridge capable of penetrating a bullet-proof vest, which would mean all hunting ammunition (#5). Nancy Pelosi called for national registration this month (#9, sorta).

#1, #6, #7, and #10 are specious at best. So, the Repugs are only 40% crazy on this point.

[Caliman73]

79. Then why post here?

This is a website for liberals, progressives, moderates, and independents who typically support Democratic candidates. People who own firearms here are cautious and watching to see what President Obama does because he has indicated on his website that he wanted to revive the useless AWB from the 90's. Recently some of his administration have backed away from that stance, while other Democratic leaders have continued to call for it. The response to tragedy always seems to be "ban" or "restrict" it never seems to be, "we need to investigate and address what is motivating people to commit these acts of violence to prevent them in the future". People have been buying firearms and ammunition at record pace for the various reasons already stated in this thread, yet we have people lumping all gun buyers into one group of "crazy" or "paranoid" nuts. Paranoia is excessive anxiety or fear to the point of irrationality or delusion. It is typically characterized as thoughts of impending doom despite any evidence to support the thought process. As I stated earlier, there have been mixed messages from the Democratic leadership about firearms legislation that would further restrict the ability of citizens to own some of the most common firearms despite the fact that those firearms are used in crimes substantially less than any other firearm or weapon. That people continue to argue ideas that have been debunked, and that organizations like Brady have stated their intent to eliminate private firearms ownership through an incremental process gives people pause. There are paranoid people in the wide spectrum of gun owners, just as there are paranoid people in the spectrum of those opposed to firearms. If you honestly want to know what is motivating the buying then just ask the question without resorting to labeling people.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

68. So the ones that believed the President elect are racist, according to you?

[Zenlitened]

73. Racism would only be the start of their problems...

... if they heard Obama say he was going to take guns and ammo of every sort off the market and out of their hands. Paranoid and delusional would be part of the diagnosis there, too. Toss in easily-manipulated, politically naive and downright tiresome, and we've got the outlines of a full-fledged Syndrome going.

Hell, some of them might even be bed-wetters. Lord knows there are plenty of cry-babies in that crowd.

And listen, before you write me off as a "gun-grabber," forget it. Some of my best friends are gun-owners. (That's only partly a joke, son.) But some of the most repulsive people I know aren't simply gun owners, they're gun-fondlers, fetishists who've lost all sense of scale or proportion.

And yeah, they're the ones "stockpiling" rifles, shot-guns, pistols and matching ammo... "because of Obama." I guess I missed his thinly-veiled warnings of a coming Buckshot Ban.

[benEzra]

87. The concern is not and never has been about "taking guns and ammo of every sort off the market."

The concern is primarily over the possibility of new restrictions on the most popular civilian rifles in America (aka "assault weapons"), and guns with post-1860's magazine capacities.

[Zenlitened]

90. "The concern is not and never has been..."

Sadly, though, it currently IS. Thus the shortage of all types of ammo. And, as others have stated in this thread, once a run on any product begins, it can become self-perpetuating.

IMO, this whole issue is a matter of responsible gun owners getting dragged down by the gun fetishists. But the gun fetishists are loud, unrelenting... and well-funded, it appears.

[benEzra]

92. The shortage of ammunition began in 2005, when post-Katrina hedging collided with Iraq war demand.

That was when availability began to be short on the most popular rifle calibers, and prices took off then. The recent surge in new owners of small-caliber rifles and full-sized handguns has led to hedging of ammunition for those newly purchased firearms, which piled even more demand on an already stretched supply.

Noncritical calibers have been affected by diversion of production to the critical calibers, i.e. .30-30 production has nosedived as lines have been shifted to .223 Remington, 7.62x39mm, 7.62x51mm/.308, and the popular handgun calibers (.380, 9mm, .40, .45, .357). The ammunition microstamping proposals that have been floated in some states, which would severely bottleneck already-overstretched ammunition production, have also increased hedging.

[Hoopla Phil]

93. Thanks, 100% correct on when the ammo "shortage" started.

[Zenlitened]

103. Yes, the trend precedes election. But the trend ACCELERATED...

... around the time of the election. "The recent surge," as you've noted.

[benEzra]

106. Quite so. And it is driven by sales of small-caliber rifles and full-size pistols

and the ammunition they use, and the diversion of ammunition production capacity to meet the vastly increased demand in those calibers.

There is one other factor I forgot to mention, and that is concern over new import bans on Eastern European ammunition. The Clinton administration banned ammunition importation from China by executive fiat as a bone to the gun-control lobby, and there is concern (whether justified or not) that importation of ammunition from Russia and the former Yugoslavia could be similarly halted, which would vastly increase prices on 7.62x39mm ammunition for SKS's and civilian AK lookalikes (the second most popular rifle caliber in America, after .223 Remington/5.56x45mm).

[Zenlitened]

107. Agreed. Small-caliber rifles and full-size pistols...

... NOT 'assault weapons.'

That, IMO, is where the craziness shows up, the "Obama Is Gonna Grab All the Guns!!!" sort of wingnuttery that's so creepy.

And I've seen it first-hand, more often than I'd care to. There's a look in the eyes of these "stockpiling because of Obama" folks that isn't quite entirely sane.

[benEzra]

108. Ummm, those ARE "assault weapons," and yes, those are driving the sales surge.

"Assault weapon" is scare-speak for the most popular non-automatic, small- and intermediate-caliber civilian rifles in the nation, and more Americans lawfully own "assault weapons" as defined by H.R.1022 et seq than hunt. It's concern over new AWB/capacity limit legislation that is driving the post-November sales surge in small- and intermediate-caliber rifles (like AR-15's) and full-size pistols.

The AR-15 platform was the most popular civilian centerfire rifle in the United States even BEFORE 2008, and sales have probably tripled since then.

What did you think most gun owners were concerned about? Deer rifles? Fewer than 1 in 5 gun owners hunts.

With regard to the ammunition shortage, the top three rifle calibers in the United States even before 2008 were (1) .223 Remington/5.56x45mm (AR-15, Mini-14), 7.62x39mm (SKS, civilian AK, Mini Thirty), and .308 Winchester/7.62x51mm (civilian FAL/CETME/AR-10, plus precision rifles and deer rifles). And all those people buying AR-15's/mini-14's/SKS's/AK's now are buying ammunition to go along with them, further straining supply and causing production to be shifted away from less popular calibers like .30-30 toward the more popular calibers, thereby causing shortages across the board.

[Zenlitened]

112. "What did you think most gun owners were concerned about? Deer rifles?"

Yep, you got me. I'm all about Bambi. And dead legislative proposals. :D

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

111. They did the same thing when Clinton was elected so why are they racist?

[jmg257]

115. He WAS the 1st black president, ya know. n/t

[Scout]

114. did you alert on the post and notify the mods of this gross violation of the DU rules? n/t

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

116. The rules say you shouldn't post about it when you have alerted on a thread.

[frebrd]

30. Interesting - looks like this thread didn't get moved .....

until more gun owners started posting.

:shrug:

Edited for spelling. :(

[X_Digger]

33. Yah, we're used to that here in the gungeon..

As long as the topic tends toward penises and 'OMG the gunz', it stays in GD. As soon as someone throws cold water on all the emotional flailing, it ends up here.

[spin]

42. Can't have all the nice people on GD bothered by facts. (n/t)

[frebrd]

46. I guess GLBT's, Atheists and Gun Owners......

are cordially invited to go hide in their respective closets.

[X_Digger]

47. We should have a virtual pot luck..

invite everyone to get to know their neighbors in their respective enclaves :)

I'm in for chili and nachos. hehe

[AtheistCrusader]

66. Man, one issue shy of the hat trick.

Oh well.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

51. If you alerts on the post in General Discussion that belong in the Gun Forum...

they are pretty good about moving them. I was told to stop posting self defensive gun posts in general discussion on risk being banned. Now I make sure that all gun posts in general discussion are immediately alerted on so they get placed where they belong. According to the DU rules, that is the way to handle it, in my opinion.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

50. Am I supposed to think that someone who labels all buyers as racists is any less bigoted...

than those he condemns?


David

[SHRED]

54. Not what I meant

Yes I should have been clearer but I meant the recent hordes that have ran to buy guns, in record numbers, because of Obama being elected.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

58. It would appear that some believed him during the campaign and what was on his website.

I don't necessarily fault people for being confused at this point.

David

[jmg257]

89. Because they believed him & his agenda? Damn - what fools!

:sarcasm:

[jody]

56. Thanks for posting an attractant that draws gun-grabber idiots who display ignorance that borders on

sheer stupidity.

How can the Democratic Party continue to offer a beacon of Hope and Change when outspoken party members continue to ignore the obvious concern of 80+ million gun-owners and their relatives and friends who know from experience that self-defense is a personal responsibility and firearms are the most effective, efficient arms for that job?

[Iktomiwicasa]

63. Gun beetle

pheromones?

:rofl:

[HALO141]

109. Beacon of hope?

"How can the Democratic Party continue to offer a beacon of Hope and Change when outspoken party members continue to ignore the obvious concern of 80+ million gun-owners and their relatives and friends who know from experience that self-defense is a personal responsibility and firearms are the most effective, efficient arms for that job?"

Quite simply, it can't. And I really wish the gun-grabbers would quite fucking up our party. Perhaps they should start their own party - the Because I Said So Party.

[kudzu22]

120. I agree they should go

join the GOP so they can be the complete anti-liberty party. No guns, no gays, no abortions, no drugs, no nothing. Let the Dems be the people's party again.

[chrisa]

61. Most people just like to shoot.

Not living out some idiotic civil war fantasy, or being paranoid.

[paulsby]

64. the fear canard

i don't fear my house catching on fire.

i have fire insurance

i don't fear the government.

i still exercise my rights via "gun insurance"

the "fear canard" one of the holy 3 of the illogical gun grabber fallacies.

[AtheistCrusader]

67. Rust. Fire. ... um.. Velociraptors.

(Full disclosure, I haven't bought any firearms since Bush left office, and have only replaced expended ammo)

[Hoopla Phil]

70. Confession

I finally got off my butt and ordered receivers for some AK parts kits I've been sitting on for a while now. I bought my wife a S&W revolver that she wanted. I've purchased a decent scope for a .308 rifle to replace the cheep one that was "just until something better can be found at a decent price". I also bought a scope and base for my FN-FAL rifle and a couple sets of scope rings. Oh, and I bought some slings too. I think that's about it since November.

[AtheistCrusader]

75. I should probably get an AK

and a Dragunov. However, I refuse to pay collectors prices for that shit, which is essentially the situation we are in now.

I'll wait. I don't think anything is going to happen.

[Tejas]

69. Nice racist accusation there SHRED

WTF has race got to do with qualifications?

[benEzra]

80. They're concerned about new bans on the most popular civilian firearms in America...

you know, like Senator Feinstein and a few other corporatist/Third Way types have promised to pass?

Tens of millions of gun owners were burned by the original Feinstein non-ban in 1994, and are not so naive as to believe that similar idiocy couldn't happen again.

[Tim01]

81. Obama said he would ban assault weapons,still has it on his web site.

And at various times during his political career he has said he wants to get rid of other guns and ammo. That is why people are buying them. He is responsible for record sales of guns and ammo.

And I am laughing AT you for trying to make this about him being black.

[one-eyed fat man]

91. "Hooked on Phonics" worked for me.....

I can read!

From the Platform of Democratic Party 2008:

"Firearms
12 We recognize that the right to bear arms is an important part of the American tradition,
13 and we will preserve Americans’ continued Second Amendment right to own and use
14 firearms. We believe that the right to own firearms is subject to reasonable regulation, but
15 we know that what works in Chicago may not work in Cheyenne. We can work together
16 to enact and enforce common-sense laws and improvements, like closing the gun show
17 loophole, improving our background check system and reinstating the assault weapons
18 ban, so that guns do not fall into the hands of terrorists or criminals. Acting responsibly
19 and with respect for differing views on this issue, we can both protect the constitutional
20 right to bear arms and keep our communities and our children safe."

From Candidate Obama's website last fall:

http://obama.3cdn.net/84b2062fc4a5114715_f...

As a long-time resident and elected official of Chicago, Barack Obama has seen the impact of fully automatic
weapons in the hands of criminals. Thus, Senator Obama supports making permanent the expired federal
Assault Weapon Ban.

President-Elect Obama's reiterates his intention to reinstate the '94 Assault Weapons Ban. Further, he wanted to make it permanent.

http://www.change.gov/

As President, his website still says he desires to reinstate the ban, a point he even makes his Mexico city press conference, he only concedes that politically it is not yet the time to do it.

In the past month, both the Secretary of State and the Attorney General have joined Senator Dianne Feinstein in claiming the Assault Weapons Ban needs to be reinstated to keep Mexican drug cartels from getting Rocket Propelled Grenades.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2...

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=69...

Let me see, party platform calls for a ban, President calls for a ban as a candidate, as President-elect, and as President on Whitehouse .gov, as well as at every TV opportunity. Various and sundry high administration officials call for a ban. They put it in writing, cover the airwaves in deceptive soundbites about "RPGs and machinguns" yammering about the need to reinstate the "expired ban on assault weapons," and they are surprised that people take them at their word????????

[slackmaster]

82. Ahem

Some of us were very vocal about the Bush-era abuses.

I haven't bought any weapons or ammunition lately because I stocked up when prices were normal. However, I have a hankerin' to buy a large-bore flintlock pistol for some reason.

[Tim01]

84. It's because they look freakin awsome hanging on the wall of your study.

That's good enough reason right there.

[Deep13]

98. Nifty.

I always thought flint lock musket would be cool. No offense to history, but I would wear glasses while shooting it.

[gorfle]

96. What they are afraid of.

It's very simple. They are afraid of a president who's published Urban policy includes banning firearms.

Hell they cheer on our government:

Labeling anyone as an "enemy combatant" and then...
Removing Habeus Corpus
Indefinite imprisonment
Extraordinary Rendition
Torturing
Spying on Americans

Not a peep during these Bush years events.

Bear in mind that many firearm owners like myself specifically voted against the Republican party for exactly the reasons you stated above. There most certainly was a peep from us, and it's why President Obama is now President.

[Deep13]

97. Simply put - unavailability.

I can't speak to these RW "ready for them" teabagger types. For me it was, if I want firearm X, I had better get it now. Turns out, I got it, shot it, cleaned it, didn't like it and will sell it. *shrug*

[ZombieHorde]

100. Spiders, gun owners are scared of spiders. nt

[raimius]

105. Not so.

I remain committed to supporting the ENTIRE Bill of Rights.

You are creating a false generalization.

What do gun buyers fear? Most commonly, we fear new laws which will limit our rights. For years, people on both sides of the AWB debate have stated it is NOT an effective anti-crime bill, yet it is STILL supported (even after Heller) by our President. WHY? It is easy to fall into conspiracy theories, etc when both sides admit to the ineffectiveness, yet one side still pursues a restrictive law. It is seen as a massive agenda to limit citizens abilities to buy the firearms they want. So, many are trying to "buy before the ban." Only time will tell if they were the smart ones or the foolish, panicky types.

[cwcwmack]

110. WE fear...

the price, availability or selection of ammunition... I don't think anyone is stocking up for "combat".

[rl6214]

119. don't turn this into a racial thing

He was elected by a majority for a reason and it's got nothing to do with race. It's got everything to do with the statements on change.gov, the whitehouse website, the dnc website and his antigun record his entire career.

[kudzu22]

121. Pick any hobby

Suppose you play golf and really enjoy it. If you had only maybe 6 months to 2 years to buy all the golf clubs and golf balls you'll ever get to buy for the rest of your life, how many would you buy? Is five sets of clubs too much? Is 1000 golf balls over the line? Does owning that much make you deluded into thinking you'll win the Masters someday? No, it's just practical.

Of course, no one is ever going to ban golf clubs (probably), but the behavior toward hoarding the equipment would be the same as we're seeing toward shooting supplies if they were (and had a realistic chance of passing).

[Quintin]

123. Childish people like you

1) actually seem to think that every gun owner is Republican.
2) think we're all a member of the NRA.

Guess what?
We're not!
I've voted for every Democratic Presidential candidate since Mondale.
I opposed virtually everything Bush ever did.

Why do people like you have such great difficulty understanding that?