Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

9th circuit incorporates 2A

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
bossy22 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:23 PM
Original message
9th circuit incorporates 2A
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 05:29 PM by bossy22
decision here http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/datastore/opinions/2009/04/20/0715763.pdf

for clarification...this was the nordyke case in Cali
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!
Big BIG NEWS!!!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Iktomiwicasa Donating Member (942 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
2. K&R
Interesting to see how this will all shake out, it certainly will be kicked upstairs to a higher court. Hopefully they will do the right thing and uphold the ruling.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
3. This story is NOT on the news anywhere..
They just cannot stand any good, gun news...

Anyway, I posted a link in "LBN"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3840513&mesg_id=3840513
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
4. WOW!
We are therefore persuaded that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth
Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment and
applies it against the states and local governments.18
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. We'll see...
how this plays out. I suspect it will go badly for the ban crowd. I need to speak to my lawyer buddy about this one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Yavapai Donating Member (554 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
6. What is in the water, that makes politicians hate our constitutional rights?
For example;

Alameda County Supervisor, MARY V. KING declared she had
“been trying to get rid of gun shows on Country property” for
“about three years,” but she had “gotten the run around from
spineless people hiding behind the constitution,

Yea, that's us, trying to HIDE BEHIND THE CONSTITUTION for years now...

""
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Not just politicians
There are millions of citizens who guard the rights they find important and are more than willing to discard all the others.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. HUGE.
This is Heller part II.

Heller opened the door by declaring the 2nd to be an independent right not connected to military service.

Some of the most reestrictive laws have been state statutes.

This is huge.

Now no doubt it will be appealed but that is what we want. An appeal all the way to SCOTUS who either
a) denies appeal and settles the issue
OR
b) rules the same way.

Wonder how the antis feel seeing their house of cards go up in flames.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
someone else Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. May not be appealed
Nordyke lost this case, but incorporation was a byproduct. Alameda County can't appeal a case it won and Nordyke needs another reason beside 2A for appeal. I see no appeal in this case. And while it only applies to states in the 9th curcuit, I expect others will soon follow suit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. As others have mentioned there is at least one other case
where it was ruled the 2nd isn't incorporated.
The two precedents are now in conflict.

It is not possible for 9th circuit to be subject to incorporation and other jurisdictions ruled not to be subject to incorporation. It is a legal paradox.

Eventually another course will make another ruling.

Pretty soon we will have a mishmash of conflicting precedents that need to be resolved.

Any ruling in which incorporation fails will be appealed.

SCOTUS will hear it because of the precedent conflict issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Maloney v. Rice
Has petitioned the SCOTUS. We should know this summer if they accept the case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #19
26. Roberts will not take...
any case that doesn't give them a perfect opportunity to incorporate. The Heller decision was practically begging for another chance to further define the 2nd Amendment. I figure we have a year or two to wait for just that case.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes, this is Heller II
Unfortunately, as has been noted, this case cannot be appealed on second amendment grounds. But it does set precedent.

This is tremendously good news. If this sticks, it opens a huge door to limiting individual States infringing on the second amendment.

Good stuff!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. From what I understand
The states within the 9th court's jurisdiction must all adhere to Heller as law. I'll bet a bunch of state AGs are going insane tonight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. And a few city AGs too. LOL!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Angleae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. A bunch? Looks like just one.
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 01:45 AM by Angleae
California. The other states in the 9th don't look to be large gun-ban states (WA, OR, AZ, NV, MT, ID). Although the 43 other state AG will be watching as to what SCOTUS does or does not do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 02:12 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. Hawaii
Is under the 9th circuit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Not just states, local govt also.
Some gun friendly states have very anti-gun legislation at local level.

This is why it is important to have a strong state preemption.

Many mayors & city councilmen are freaking out also.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 08:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. woot!!
Tons and TONS of historical material in there, too. Some of it quoted from Heller, some not.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
11. Some interesting quotes...
Edited on Mon Apr-20-09 09:38 PM by gorfle
From the author of the ordinance, Mary King:

"King declared she had
“been trying to get rid of gun shows on Country property” for
“about three years,” but she had “gotten the run around from
spineless people hiding behind the constitution, and been
attacked by aggressive gun toting mobs on right wing talk
radio.”"


They note that the right to keep and bear arms predates the Constitution.

"The Second Amendment protects a right that predates
the Constitution; therefore, the Constitution did not
grant it. See, e.g., Heller, 128 S. Ct. at 2797 (“(I)t has always
been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the
First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right.”).
It necessarily follows that the Privileges or Immunities Clause
did not protect the right to keep and bear arms because it was
not a right of citizens of the United States. See Cruikshank,
92 U.S. at 553; cf. Presser, 116 U.S. at 266-67 (holding that
the “right to associate with others as a military company” is
not a privilege of citizens of the United States)."


Here is a key quoting of Heller which indicates precisely what I have said all along concerning the reasons why our founders intended an armed citizenry:

"This necessary “right of the people” existed before the Second
Amendment as “one of the fundamental rights of Englishmen.”
Id. at 2797-98. Heller identified several reasons why
the militia was considered “necessary to the security of a free
state.” First, “it is useful in repelling invasions and suppressing
insurrections. Second, it renders large standing armies
unnecessary . . . . Third, when the able-bodied men of a nation
are trained in arms and organized, they are better able to resist
tyranny.”"


"Thus the right contains both a
political component—it is a means to protect the public from
tyranny—and a personal component—it is a means to protect
the individual from threats to life or limb."


Another excellent quote:

"For readers of Blackstone, therefore, the right to
bear arms closely followed from the absolute rights to personal
security, personal liberty, and personal property.12 It was
a right crucial to safeguarding all other rights."


On the racist roots of gun control:

"“n the aftermath of the Civil War,
there was an outpouring of discussion of the Second Amendment
in Congress and in public discourse, as people debated
whether and how to secure constitutional rights for newly
freed slaves.” 128 S. Ct. at 2809-10; see also Amar, supra, at
192 (noting that “slavery led to state repudiation of virtually
every one of the . . . freedoms ”). One
major concern in these debates was the disarming of newly
freed blacks in Southern states by statute as well as by vigilantism.
See Heller, 128 S. Ct. at 2810. Many former slave
states passed laws to that effect. See, e.g., Act of Nov. 29,
1865, 1865 Miss. Laws 165 (“o freedman, free Negro or
mulatto . . . shall keep or carry fire-arms of any kind, or any
ammunition, dirk or bowie knife . . . .”). Brigadier General
Charles H. Howard, in a letter provided to Congress, reported
to the head of the Freedmen’s Bureau that the “militia organizations
in the opposite county of South Carolina (Edgefield)
were engaged in disarming the negroes. . . . Now, at Augusta,
. . . I have authentic information that these abuses continue. In
southwestern Georgia, I learned that the militia had done the
same, sometimes pretending to act under orders from United
States authorities.” Report of the Joint Committee on Reconstruction,
H.R. Rep. No. 39-30, pt. 3, at 46 (1st Sess. 1866)."


Another excellent quote concerning the "why" of the second amendment:

"We also note that the target of the right to keep and bear
arms shifted in the period leading up to the Civil War. While
the generation of 1789 envisioned the right as a component of
local resistance to centralized tyranny, whether British or federal,
the generation of 1868 envisioned the right as safeguard
to protect individuals from oppressive or indifferent local
governments. See Amar, supra, at 257-66. But though the
source of the threat may have migrated, the antidote remained
the same: the individual right to keep and bear arms, a
recourse for “when the sanctions of society and laws are
found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression.” 1
Blackstone, supra, at *144."


Getting to the meat of why the County's case was rejected:

"The County does little to refute this powerful evidence that
the right to bear arms is deeply rooted in the history and tradition
of the Republic, a right Americans considered fundamental
at the Founding and thereafter. The County instead argues
that the states, in the exercise of their police power, are the
instrumentalities of the right of self-defense at the heart of the
Second Amendment. This argument merely rephrases the collective
rights argument the Supreme Court rejected in Heller.
Indeed, one need only consider other constitutional rights to
see the poverty of this contention. State police power also
covers, for instance, some of the conduct the First Amendment
protects, but that does not deny individuals the right to
assert First Amendment rights against the states."


and:

"Once the County actually addresses modern incorporation
doctrine, it relies on general assertions that run afoul of
Heller. For example, the County declares that “the English
common law tradition does not recognize an individual’s right
to possess a firearm as a fundamental right.” Heller plainly
contradicts that statement because it says that “(b)y the time
of the founding, the right to have arms had become fundamental
for English subjects.”"


And for the grand finale:

"12] We therefore conclude that the right to keep and bear
arms is “deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition.”
Colonial revolutionaries, the Founders, and a host of commentators
and lawmakers living during the first one hundred
years of the Republic all insisted on the fundamental nature
of the right. It has long been regarded as the “true palladium
of liberty.” Colonists relied on it to assert and to win their
independence, and the victorious Union sought to prevent a
recalcitrant South from abridging it less than a century later.
The crucial role this deeply rooted right has played in our
birth and history compels us to recognize that it is indeed fundamental,
that it is necessary to the Anglo-American conception
of ordered liberty that we have inherited.17 We are
therefore persuaded that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth
Amendment incorporates the Second Amendment and
applies it against the states and local governments.18"


Also interesting to read from a modern judge:

"GOULD, Circuit Judge, concurring:
I concur in Judge O’Scannlain’s opinion but write to elaborate
my view of the policies underlying the selective incorporation
decision. First, as Judge O’Scannlain has aptly
explained, the rights secured by the Second Amendment are
“deeply rooted in this Nation’s history and tradition,” and
“necessary to the Anglo-American regime of ordered liberty.”
The salient policies underlying the protection of the right to
bear arms are of inestimable importance. The right to bear
arms is a bulwark against external invasion. We should not be
overconfident that oceans on our east and west coasts alone
can preserve security. We recently saw in the case of the terrorist
attack on Mumbai that terrorists may enter a country
covertly by ocean routes, landing in small craft and then
assembling to wreak havoc. That we have a lawfully armed
populace adds a measure of security for all of us and makes
it less likely that a band of terrorists could make headway in
an attack on any community before more professional forces
arrived.1 Second, the right to bear arms is a protection against
the possibility that even our own government could degenerate
into tyranny, and though this may seem unlikely, this possibility
should be guarded against with individual diligence."




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
raimius Donating Member (201 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. good and "iffy"
I wholeheartedly agree that the 2nd should be incorporated.
(I think the entirety of the BOR should be incorporated, but that's a larger issue.)

What do you think about the ruling that the county fairground is a "sensitive place?" That seems overly broad to me. If citizens wind up prohibited from carrying in any public place where people congregate, what good is the right for self-defense once one leaves their own property?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. that's the bad part
there are plenty of reason for both sides to just leave this be, or appeal it for very different reasons

Get your popcorn ready....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-20-09 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
18. The 2nd amendment does not specify
A right to self defense only in your home. The examples the concurring justice gave would seem to indicate the court doesn't think a constitutional right only applies to you in your house either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. I think you are missing the point.
The same justices that stated the 2nd applies to the states also considered a fairground to be a "sensitive place" per Heller.

If courts & legislatures can name everything a "senstive place" then you have a defacto gun ban outside your private property.

I think the court was wrong maybe the plantiffs will appeal.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. The thing about it is this...
We are now going to be arguing about what defines a "sensitive place" and the government's requirements for establishing such zones. Just saying it's so isn't going to cut it in the very near future. It's all going to come down to the level of scrutiny the courts are going to establish. Personally, I hope they force the government to strictly prove the "reasonable" need for each and every restriction they've placed on lawful citizens.

In my opinion the Nordykes should just declare a victory and move on. Getting the court to even use language incorporating the 2nd was a victory. Because the County was affirmed they cannot appeal. Now Nordyke can be used to further establish the boundaries of the 2nd Amendment.

I'm not a lawyer, so what do I know?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
24. What planet is this?
It looks like Earth. The stars look right.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
27. Ya know..
If nothing else, this demonstrates how connected and more informed the general gun owning public is these days.

I can't imagine usenet in '93 lighting up like all the gun forums did yesterday. You had honest to goodness lawyers chiming in shoulder to shoulder with gun enthusiasts, going over all the minutia of this case, as well as the legal strategy going forward. There were people asking questions about how the SCOTUS grants certiorari, what en banc means, and why it might be the next step in a court district with divided precedent..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:46 PM
Response to Original message
28. Moderator, please delete
Edited on Tue Apr-21-09 04:48 PM by Pullo
please delete

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Curiousity...why delete?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pullo Donating Member (367 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. just my post
I posted about the 2nd Circuit Mahoney case, which someone else already had posted in this thread and I missed.

my post was redundant, so I edited it asking the mod to delete


sorry for the confusion
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-21-09 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
29. Moderator, please recommend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Wed Apr 24th 2024, 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC