Gun Owners of America: "Obama Proposes Signing Treaty To Ban Reloading"

[WilliamPitt]

http://gunowners.org/fs0901.htm

The kicker after that headline: "Even BB guns could be on the chopping block"

You can't make this shit up.

Obligatory stupid question: is there any validity to this whatsoever?

[Journeyman]

1. How do you reload BB shot? . . .

Tip the gun owner's head to the side and carefully pour them back into his ear.

[notadmblnd]

2. here's a thread on it from earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x5513000

[baldguy]

3. RWers will make anything up.

[Occam Bandage]

4. I highly doubt any court would ever interpret reloading a gun as "assembly of firearms."

I appreciate people who comb through laws to find ambiguities, but I don't see one there.

[Occam Bandage]

5. Also, they claim BB guns are covered because of the "any barreled weapon" language.

However, that's a result of malicious editing. What the document actually says is, "any barreled weapon which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a bullet or projectile by the action of an explosive, except antique firearms manufactured before the 20th Century or their replicas." BB guns do not work "by the action of an explosive."

They also complain about the "any other weapon" language, which does seem vague, until you read the text and see the full language is "any other weapon or destructive device such as any explosive, incendiary or gas bomb, grenade, rocket, rocket launcher, missile, missile system, or mine. (emphasis added) It is clear that this provision is limited to explosive-derived weapons, for which there is no one unifying term.

[pnutbutr]

25. it was reloading ammunition

Some people actually reuse old shell casings to make their own bullets.

[jmg257]

30. NOT 'assembly of firearms', 'manufacturing of ammunition' = 'reloading'. nt

[X_Digger]

31. People actually do, legally, make their own firearms

And not just black powder rifles / pistols.

You can't sell them, but no license is required to make / use them.

[rl6214]

63. Reloading ammunition as in make your own

“Illicit manufacturing” of firearms is defined as “assembly of firearms ammunition... without a license...”

[krispos42]

6. If there is some kind of law requiring ammuntion registration, perhaps

California tried to mandate that ammunition have serial numbers on both the bullet and the casing. Each box would have a serial number, and that number would be etched on the base of the bullet and on the inside of the brass casing. And there would be a state-wide registration of all ammunition.


Didn't go anyplace. But if something like that was attempted, then presumebly there would either be an exception for handloaders or handloading would become effectively illegal.


And there are people in the gun-control movement that are happy for any regulation whatsoever that makes owning a gun harder and more expensive.

:shrug:

[movonne]

7. I wonder how America would look with no guns in the hand of

the people...would it be good or bad???

[DireStrike]

36. Personally I think it would look a lot better

Not gonna happen though and we have more important things to deal with before we burn away all our political capital on that.

...but then none of the really important issues will probably be addressed. Sigh.

[Deep13]

45. Good if you're a big strong man.

Bad if one is threatening to kill you with his bare hands.

[Indy Lurker]

8. There is a problem with re-loading as written

It looks like you couldn't reload without a government license.

The BB gun ban is a stretch.

****************************************
ARTICLE I
Definitions

For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials:

a. from components or parts illicitly trafficked; or

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; or

c. without marking the firearms that require marking at the time of manufacturing.

2. "Illicit trafficking": the import, export, acquisition, sale, delivery, movement, or transfer of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials from or across the territory of one State Party to that of another State Party, if any one of the States Parties concerned does not authorize it.

[Occam Bandage]

21. Do you really think that reloading a gun constitutes "manufacture or assembly of firearms?"

I don't, and I don't think any court would. Also, the BB gun ban is not a stretch. It is a lie, as they deliberately cut out the phrase "by the action of an explosive."

[Indy Lurker]

23. It dosen't need to

The document in question also covers the illicit manufacture of ammunition, it's even in the title of the document:

Inter-American Convention Against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives, and Other Related Materials (1997)

As I posted up thread, the document also defines manufacture of ammunition by a non-state licensed entity (i.e. a re-loader) to be illicit manufacture.


BB guns in the UK are routinely drilled out (from .17 to .22) so that they can be used a single shot zip gun. crude, but more powerful than a BB gun.

IF and it's a stretch, BB guns were looked at for a ban, it would be due to the theory, that they "may be readily converted to expel a bullet" in other words they could be made into a firearm, not because they are a firearm in their manufactured form.

Here's a link to the whole document:

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/49907.htm

[Occam Bandage]

32. Reloading is not "manufacturing ammunition." That is silly.

I think it is entirely reasonable to restrict the illicit manufacturing of ammunition as part of an arms trade limitation agreement. As for people re-loading casings?

As for zip guns? If you were to make the argument that drilling a different bore into a tube of metal and then building and installing a home-made firing pin assembly constitutes "ready conversion," you would be laughed out of court. That argument would make it so that just about anything on Earth was a firearm, since a metal pipe, a pen, a cell phone, a remote control, or an Altoids tin can all be "converted" just as easily. That isn't conversion, that's assembly. It's obvious that "ready conversion" does not extend beyond preventing people from shipping modular-assembly weapons in several pieces, and saying "hey, look, this half a gun can't fire a bullet, and neither can this, so I'm not gunrunning."

As for "a link to the whole document?" Given that I am quoting the text of the whole document, as opposed to the out-of-context lies of the piece, I think a reasonable person would already have come to the conclusion that I have found it.

[jmg257]

35. So then, if the treaty was ratified, it would depend on the wording of the new laws created to

meet the treaty. Certainly seems they CAN set 'quantity cut-offs' or something to distinguish "illicit manufacturing" efforts from gun owner/shooters reloading.


Is there a problem in this country with (potentially illegal) ammunition manufacturing?

[Egalitariat]

43. Of course it is. The only difference is you reuse casings

You have to buy new powder, new primer, and a new bullet. You put those 3 things together with an old casing when you're reloading.

You don't think that's "manufacturing ammunition". If you bought a new casing (instead of reusing an old one), does that make it "manufacturing ammunition" in your eyes?

[rl6214]

64. The terminology of RELOADING

in the firearms industry is the reloading of ammunition. Taking the empty brass casing after it has been fired, cleaning it up, reshaping it, putting in a new primer, new powder and a new bullet. that is reloading which is manufacturing ammunition.

[Paladin]

9. Believe Me, There Are People Down In The DU Gun Dungeon Who Are Desperate To Believe This. (n/t)

[WilliamPitt]

10. Where did this "treaty" come from?

[EFerrari]

11. I'd reply but that's in there, too.

lol

[X_Digger]

12. See link below..

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16316943.htm

MEXICO CITY, April 16 (Reuters) - U.S. President Barack Obama said on Thursday he will push the U.S. Senate to ratify a long-stalled arms trafficking treaty meant to curb the flow of guns and ammunition to drug cartels in Latin America.

Activists want Washington to push for ratification of the Inter-American Convention against the Illicit Manufacturing of and Trafficking in Firearms, Ammunition, Explosives and Other Related Materials.

The convention, known by Spanish acronym CIFTA, has been languishing in the U.S. Senate since it was adopted in 1997.

Obama, who visited Mexico to show his support for President Felipe Calderon's efforts to reduce violence and rein in drug cartels, said he would put his weight behind the treaty's ratification.

[L0oniX]

13. 100% pure bull shit

[jmg257]

29. Or not.

[BlooInBloo]

14. BWAHAHAAAA!!!!

[chollybocker]

15. The NRA is fund-raising again.

And paranoid bullshit triples contributions.

[ManiacJoe]

17. Wrong organization. GOA != NRA

[chollybocker]

22. What is GOA ! ?

[WilliamPitt]

27. Gun Owners of America

[Pullo]

60. NRA is moderate/compromising compared to GOA

The NRA is a bit self-absorbed, as evidenced by their selective "scoring" system ala John McCain endorsement. McCain had previously been listed as all but an enemy to gun ownership by NRA. GOA thought both Obama and McCain were basically the same visa vi the 2A. GOA endorsed Ron Paul.

That's just the tip of the iceberg.

[gratuitous]

16. I will say that they know their audience

And there is, trust me when I tell you this, nothing so asinine that a substantial percentage of scared little boys won't believe it.

[ManiacJoe]

18. It was already signed, back in 1997.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/16230/

"This treaty was signed by the U.S. on November 14, 1997 at the 24th Special Session of the General Assembly of the Organization of American States. It entered into force on July 1, 1998."

[dashrif]

58. The

Congress has to vote on it they are the only ones that can enter a treaty with another country so until they do it's not binding

[Ilsa]

19. In 2012, when these idiots still have their guns with no changes

of substance to gun laws, these idiots will claim it was GOA's fine work that kept everything humming for them.

[bullwinkle428]

20. Obama is banning the Internet, according to some of these same wizards!

:rofl:

[Hanse]

24. That's a joke, right?

"You can't make this shit up."

"Is it valid?"

[pipoman]

26. I don't know the ins and outs

of this treaty, but I am weary of international treaties as a whole. They have not been good to us in recent years. The trade treaties have removed a portion of our sovereignty which we cannot get back. I believe there has been and are attempts to bind the US to international treaties which effectively bypass the legislative process.

[jmg257]

28. Yes. The treaty exists, and is signed by the U.S. Obama said he will push for ratification.

We are a signatorie, but the treaty needs Senate ratification.
And Obama said on Thursday he will push the U.S. Senate to ratify.


http://www.cfr.org/publication/16230

"ARTICLE I
Definitions

For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials:

a. from components or parts illicitly trafficked; or

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; or
...

4. "Ammunition": the complete round or its components, including cartridge cases, primers, propellant powder, bullets, or projectiles that are used in any firearm.
...

1. States Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials..."

[Occam Bandage]

33. Do you often manufacture ammunition at home?

[jmg257]

34. Not so much-I prefer store-bought, figure it is more dependable. I know plenty who do though.

Many assemble ammunition for the money savings, some for the increased/controlled repeatable accuracy, etc.

[BigBluenoser]

37. Define manufacture...

I pick up my fired brass (and other peoples brass), I clean it, put it in my press, pop a primer into it, add powder, seat and crimp a bullet. I went from 4 separate items to a round of ammunition. Did I manufacture it? dunno. I sure as hell assembled myself a round of ammunition. In the next few months I will begin casting my own lead bullets. That will be manufacturing of the bullet itself at least.

That said, even if this treaty goes into effect I'm not expecting the BATF to kick in my door any time soon and confiscate my reloading equipment. In other words, I doubt it will apply to the one man industry that is Bluenoser Garage-Built Bullets.

[jmg257]

38. From treaty...

"1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials:

a. from components or parts illicitly trafficked; or...

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; or...

...

Ammunition": the complete round or its components, including cartridge cases, primers, propellant powder, bullets, or projectiles that are used in any firearm.


You are doubly screwed, bullet caster! :evilgrin:

[dysfunctional press]

39. i honestly don't think that it applies to people who load their own ammo...

or assemble guns from kits- (in which case i would assume that the manufacturer of the kits would have a license that allows it's customers to assemble the guns from their kits.

but then- the rampant paranoia of the average 'gun enthusiast' seems to know no bounds. :shrug:

[jmg257]

40. Possibly not. How can you tell? Depends on the laws which get enacted to meet the treaty.

"1. States Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials."

[dysfunctional press]

41. how can you tell? common-sense, mostly...

the lack of which is probably why the most rabid gun-nuts get the most worked up over it.

[jmg257]

48. Still didn't answer the question. Help us out. 'It is 'common sense' because...' n/t

[dysfunctional press]

50. if you really need to have 'common-sense' explained to you- you probably don't have it....

and wouldn't get it.

most people- including the government, has no problem with sport-shooters, hunters, and true 'enthusiasts' that want to assemble their own guns and ammunition for their own personal use. when they decide to turn it into a cottage industry, and sell their wares/handiwork to others is where most reasonable people are going to get...interested.

[jmg257]

51. I know what 'common sense' is. That isn't what needed answering.

But you did OK on the actual answer to the actual question, assuming you are correct and the govt really has no interest in sport-shooters etc.

Which is of course how it should be.

And this should help:

"The Convention will not require implementing legislation for the United States. As further discussed below, the existing body of federal laws in the United States is adequate to satisfy the Convention’s provisions regarding requirements for legislation, and the other provisions contained in the Convention are self-executing and will not require new legislation." William J. Clinton

[dysfunctional press]

54. it seems that they're mostly concerned about gang-bangers and drug cartels

and the people who keep them in arms.

most politicians realize that gun-control is a no-win situation, no matter what they might say to placate the gun-hating nervous nellies at election time. love it or leave it- guns are in this country to stay- i have no doubts at all about that.

[jmg257]

55. Let's hope! And that their attention & actions are effective towards a positive impact. Cheers! nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. So if a friend asked me to load him some rounds for a USPSA match and paid me to do it....

would that count as manufacturing? If you think there is a simple common sense answer to that question that could never come under the scrutiny of a prosecutor, then I'd love to hear your logic.

David

[dysfunctional press]

53. would you report the money he paid you to do it to the irs?

and if you're going to accept money for the job- by rights you'd probably need a business license.

ultimately it would be up to you as to how many laws you'd want to break and how much jail-time you'd be willing to risk for your friendship. of course- a real friend wouldn't be asking you to do anything illegal in the first place.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. What illegal act did he ask me to do or are you saying that would classify as manufacturing?

[dysfunctional press]

57. as far as the meaning of "manufacture"...

as someone else has pointed out in this clumping of threads- people can make things as craft people and legally it isn't considered "manufacturing".

and even if something were technically 'illegal'- there's lots of different things that people do every day that are illegal- but that they stand very little chance of ever being prosecuted for. making some ammo for a friend to use in a competition- were it 'technically' illegal to do so would probably be one of those types of things.

[one-eyed fat man]

65. legislative definitions

do not have to comport in any way to reality. For example, if a city were to declare in an ordinance that any firearm which could accept a magazine with a capacity of more than 12 rounds is a machinegun, then for the purposes of that law it is so. Whether or not the gun is capable of automatic fire is irrelevant.

As stupid as it sounds, and even as stupid as it may be, legislative bodies at all levels are free to write stupid laws. They can even authorize regulatory agencies to write stupid rules to help comply with stupid laws. Even if you don't have a dog in the fight, how manufacturing ammunition is defined, or how firearm is defined, and how broadly or narrowly those definitions get read by courts and judges will determine how laws finally get implemented.

Obviously, the CIFTA Treaty is just a step in the "right direction", the fervent members of DU's antigun subset wants "common sense" measures to mean, gather up all guns not owned by the government and melt them down, make casting lead articles of any kind at home verboten, burn all books that tell you how to extract saltpeter from cave dirt, and to establish reeducation camps to put all former gun-owners in.

After all, history shows that all most enlightened and progressive societies the world has ever known resulted from absolute power exclusively in the hands of a central government.

[Bluenorthwest]

42. Well it simply does not say that manufacturing should be an

across the borad ofense. It says 'illict' manufacturing. Which means illegal. So, obviously to some, it also means there is legal manufacturing of those items.
Here is a definition of 'manufacturing': Includes all steps necessary to convert raw materials, components, or parts into finished goods that meet a customer's expectations or specifications. Manufacturing commonly employs a man-machine setup with division of labor in a large scale production.

I wonder if those reloading shells in the basement are meeting customer's specs? Do they have a division of labor or large scale production? I have seen many people legally licensed to create hand made crafts who are at the same time forbidden from manufacturing those crafts...so, one can legally make a thing they are not allowed to manufacture. So manufacture is not a synonym for 'make'. One does not manufacture dinner, although dinners aer manufactured.
Words do have specific meanings, no? So the illicit manufacture of items is not the same as the legal making of the same items. To manufacture requires scale, fabrication is not manufacture, even if you want it to be.

[Egalitariat]

44. Actually, it defines illicit manufacturing as any manufacturing done w/o a government license

nm

[Egalitariat]

46. And I think, as currently written, it would indeed ban reloading

My rationale is this:

Federal, a company that everybody agrees manufactures ammunition:

1) Buys new casings
2) Buys new gunpowder
3) Buys new primers
4) Buys new bullets
5) Assembles those 4 components into ammunition



A reloader:

1) Reuses old casings
2) Buys new gunpowder
3) Buys new primers
4) Buys new bullets
5) Assembles those 4 components into ammunition


The only difference between those 2 examples is step 1. Does the difference in that single step mean Federal "manufactures ammunition" and the reloader does not?

If a paper mill uses recycled paper instead of virgin pulp, does that mean it is not "manufacturing paper"?

[BigBluenoser]

47. I guess I'll just keep the garage door closed and turn on the fans...

When this goes into effect :)

And buy blackmarket primers & powders. They'll probably be cheaper!

[yay]

62. Make your own primers!

Just save your old ones, Scrape out the residue, punch the pin mark back out, add the white tip from white tip matches and assemble

Primers.

[jmg257]

49. never mind already answered. n/t

[Tim01]

59. I don't like the sound of that.

[yay]

61. Yes actually

I reload bass cases. I either buy new brass, once fired brass, or I buy factory ammo and pick up the brass after words.

I use hard-cast lead bullets and with my load I can shoot 9mm for about $0.10 a shot. not to mention I can tailor the load to work best in my gun and if I wanted too I can control the consistency a lot more than factory ammo.

I'm planing on expanding from just 9mm though.

[Jackson1999]

66. Don't worry about this

It is just an attempt by GOA to differentiate themselves from the NRA. This is not a law. No new legislation is required to participate in the treaty. It specifically says that it shall not supercede in country laws. It has nothing to do with reloading. It's just a way to push mexico to share more gun data with us and use as a political tool against countries where the arms are really coming from. We already do everything that is asked for in the treaty.

Total wing nut conspiracy. The black helicopters are not on their way.