What Happened to the Ban on Assault Weapons? Op-ed by Jimmy Carter

[X_Digger]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/opinion/27Carter.html

I didn't see a link in the post in EOA, so I found it..

Choice quotes:

Instead, the N.R.A. is defending criminals’ access to assault weapons and use of ammunition that can penetrate protective clothing worn by police officers on duty*. In addition, while the N.R.A. seems to have reluctantly accepted current law restricting sales by licensed gun dealers to convicted felons**, it claims that only “law-abiding people” obey such restrictions — and it opposes applying them to private gun dealers*** or those who sell all kinds of weapons from the back of a van or pickup truck at gun shows. {notes and emphasis added}

* All the rifles and shotguns that President Carter likely owns will penetrate standard issue non-swat body armor.

** The NRA wholeheartedly supported and continues to support NICS.

*** There are no 'private dealers'- if you do it as a business 'dealer' then you must be federally licensed, regardless of location.

[villager]

1. there are no guns sold, sans NICS, at gun shows?

When did that start happening?

[MercutioATC]

2. Not by dealers.

Any firearms sold at a gun show without a NICS check are private sales...just like if one went to another's house to buy the gun.

[X_Digger]

3. Maybe it's a language thing..

When I see 'dealer' I don't think 'guy selling one of his own guns', I think 'someone in the business of selling firearms'.

When some people use it, you know they mean to muddy the meaning a la the mix-ups between M-16 / AR-15 and AK-47 / {insert semi-automatic clone}.

Dealer -noun 1. a person who buys and sells articles without altering their condition; trader or merchant, esp. a wholesaler: I got a dealer's discount on this coat.

[elleng]

6. Very good point.

SO, which would nra want to use? the confusing term, right?

[MercutioATC]

9. No, they define a "gun dealer" the same way the law does.

One who is licensed by federal law to engage in the business of dealing in firearms.

[X_Digger]

10. "private seller" works for me. n/t

[villager]

18. I believe that's what our ex-President meant, and it is entirely reasonable to make these sales

...subject to the same NICS standards as other gun sales...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. Many "gun nuts" here have encouraged opening the NICS to private sales.

[lysine]

22. I don't believe opening NICS to private sales will deter illegal sales or solve crime

A federally licensed dealer is subject to several sets of regulations when doing business. It's very simple... follow the rules and keep your license (business/livelihood). The ATF uses what resources it can to make random "audits" on dealers and verify everything is legit. Screw up and abuse your FFL privileges and risk a revoked license, incur heavy fines, or prison time.

One such regulation that must be followed is the FFL must record ALL sales/transfers/business in a "bound book". There are records of what guns have been sent TO the dealer and the dealer had better either:
A) Have that item and produce it for inspection
B) Have a record of sale with accompanying Form 4473 and cleared NICS
C) Have record of transferring it to another dealer.

There is clear motivation (legally and fiscally) for a business to keep a clean bound book and not make illegal sales. Someone WILL find out if a deal is made to a prohibited person... especially if that weapon turns up at a crime scene. For the private seller (or "private dealer") there is no FFL license, regulations, bound books, or real motivation to comply with NICS. What's to stop someone from making an illegal private sale they know there no record of them even having that gun? What if they decide to sell the gun sans calling NICS? As long as there's nobody witnessing the sale... there is no accounting trail to follow.

The truth is, most guns out there are on their 3rd/4th/5th owner and there is no way of locating them or knowing who has them. Records of possession of that private seller's firearm are not stringent and complete both BEFORE and AFTER it changes hands... especially if it was purchased from another and sold to private source. The ATF does not have resources to audit all "private dealers" (said otherwise: ALL eligible gun-owning citizens). The icing on this turd-dessert is that once-again... this law does absolutely NOTHING to people who live outside the law.

What it boils down to is that requiring citizens to call NICS would be a feel-good law with little provision for enforcement.
Without very successful/stringent nationwide arms registration and private citizens bound books, private sale NICS cannot work.

[X_Digger]

23. I wouldn't make it mandatory..

.. but it would let those who want to make sure they're not selling to a 'prohibited person' more secure. (And could be an affirmative defense if that gun is later used in a crime..)

[lysine]

24. Not a bad idea then, I guess...

It gives gun owners more options (more freedom) and provides some benefit. Win-win... I say go for it. But I still feel that to make such actions mandatory (aka closing the gunshow "loophole") would be unenforcible, require a comprehensive effective registry (impossible), and would barely effect those who disregard laws.

[X_Digger]

25. Completely agree..

.. it requires such pretzel contortions of the interstate commerce clause as to make it completely meaningless.

(The recent Lautenberg 'solution' legislation claims that since gun parts or even raw materials are created outside a state, the federal government can intercede between the residents of a state's private sales via the interstate commerce clause.)

[Tim01]

12. That's one place out of hundreds. Intentional misinformation.

[krispos42]

17. Of course there are

Or rather, there are guns legally sold, sans NICS, all over the place except California.



All legal dealer-to-customer sales are done with NICS. Except for California, all private sales are done sans NICS.


Use of "gun shows" implies a condition exists between use of NICS and geographic location, when such a condition does not in fact exist.

[elleng]

4. Thanks for the link!

Don't know WHAT happened to it! There sure was a lot of CONVERSATION, tho!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=103&topic_id=443777&mesg_id=443777

Oh, just remembered, Prolly because it was at the 4:00 am hour, when aol (or du) goes nuts, and fails to post my comments properly!

[X_Digger]

5. No worries, sparked quite a discussion! n/t

[elleng]

7. Yes it did!

:hi:

[spin]

8. Interesting, I wonder if Jimmy Carter realizes...

that the two scoped hunting rifles he owns will easily penetrate standard issue body armor.

Mr. Carter has recently published his opinion on "assault rifles" in a article published in the NY Times.

In the article, he talks about how bad assault rifles are because they can be used to shoot through police body armor. It seems to me that he is being somewhat hypocritical, as he admits to owning two sniper rifles and two handguns. The sniper rifles (scoped high power hunting rifles) can punch through body armor at more than twice the range of the 7.62x39 cartridge. The handgun is according to Brady the choice of criminals worldwide.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090427112101AAq4lOq

A great deal of controversy has arisen
over the years regarding armor-piercing
ammunition and the threat it reportedly
poses because of its ability to penetrate the
soft body armor or so-called “bulletproof”
vests worn by police officers. Most firearm
assaults on police involve handguns, and most
body armor is intended to protect officers
from that level of harm. However, there is no
such thing as a completely bulletproof vest.
Even though not designed to do so, most
conventional rifle ammunition used for over a
century in big game hunting due to its power
and velocity will penetrate body armor.
Because of this, even though it has rarely
been used against police officers, such traditional
ammunition has been erroneously
labeled as “armor-piercing.”
http://www.saami.org/publications/226TechOverview.pdf

[virginia mountainman]

11. I read this just a little while past midnight last night..

I too, was bothered by the lack of understanding he had on this subject.

[jody]

13. I grew up about 125 miles SE of Carter in the same era under rural conditions. Sorry Jimmy, your

advisers have misled you on the definition of assault weapons and the ubiquity of semiautomatic firearms with various cosmetic features that you, Ronald Reagan, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush want to ban.

[Caliman73]

14. Funny how some gun owners see themselves as better than others based on what they own.

My wife just made a great point. She said, I've never walked into a gun shop and seen a sign that said, "These guns are only to kill animals" and "These guns are only to kill people" ALL guns are designed to fire projectiles that can kill ALL animals and people with varying degrees of success. When looking at which caliber to use for what purpose you make a determination about the effectiveness of the round. I am not going to use a 22lr or .223 round to defend myself from bears in the wild, although if that was all I had it would be better than nothing. Similarly, I am not going to use 30.06 or .454 rounds for personal defense because they are too much round for the purpose. However, to say that "My guns are ok, because I only use them to kill animals." is hypocrisy. Well President Carter, my guns have not killed any living being. I don't hunt, but if you choose to do so, I won't judge you for it. Don't judge me for choosing a rifle and round that is light, has low recoil, is one of the least expensive centerfire cartridges, and is judged to be effective for personal defense because it poses less danger of over penetration than your "hunting" rifles. I understand the visceral emotional reaction to when people are killed by criminals using firearms. My problem is that rather than looking at our own potentially violent nature and addressing factors that actually lead to violence, people continue to see violence as caused by objects that can be used to kill animals, kill humans, or like my firearms, used to shoot paper targets and plastic bottles. I hope that I never have to use my firearm to defend myself or my loved ones, but if I ever do, I would hope that I would be able to use the most effective round, rifle, or handgun necessary for that purpose. The second amendment applies to the defense of oneself, one's state, and one's nation from individual threats or from the tyranny of the government itself. That is the principal of the 2nd amendment not to provide only guns that are deemed "socially acceptable".

[Pullo]

16. Muzzleloaders, bolt actions, etc weren't designed to kill deer......

but Jimmy, your "deer rifles" will pierce most body armor worn by LEO.


This is the kind of shit that is ruinous to the reputation of Democrats among gun owners

[slackmaster]

15. As much as I admire President Carter, his knowledge of this subject is lacking

The first vote I ever cast in any real government election was for him.

He should stick with subjects he knows - Nuclear engineering, international diplomacy, and building homes for the poor.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. What a ignorant, lying dumbass!

[gorfle]

21. Jimmy Carter is making a common mistake.

Like many others have done before him, Jimmy Carter is trying to couch the second amendment in terms of hunting.

The second amendment is about shooting people, not game.

Any discussion about what arms are appropriate for people to own is mute without acknowledging this point first.