Confronting intruders

[Kaleva]

Here's a story about a man shot dead while confronting some intruders on his property:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4037695

I don't know if having a gun would have helped this man at all. In my view, it's damn stupid to face intruders, even if armed, who pose no immediate threat to one's life or the lives of loved ones as you have no idea as to how cheaply the intruders view life and how well armed they may be.

[sam sarrha]

1. Afghanistan has produced at least 5 years worth of Heroin on the streets today, the war on drugs has...

made Weed difficult to get but there's Skag aplenty and cheap... another Legacy of that Wet Brain Alcoholic Drug Addict Psychotic Narcissistic piece of SHIT George43 and his father's mafia and all the Sycophant ReThuglican Party.. hell it ain't a Party is a God Damned Cluster Fuck.. when there is something that makes that much money they are like a bunch of F'n monkeys at a salad bar.

it's no accident there is that much Heroin.. when we invaded Panama, released the recently impounded ship full of East German weapons for Cocaine, we also released 4 Cali Cartel bankers from their Prison, the very bankers who developed the banking system used today to launder vast amounts of drug money. the one who was the Bank President was appointed president of Panama and shortly after we left the amount of Cocaine shipped out of Panama increased 600%. and the Cali Cartel took over the drug trade.

i am very surprised we don't hear more of this

[SteveM]

2. It depends on how you view "intrusion"...

I would not venture out of my house (even if armed) to confront a prowler (someone not yet in my house). The exception (rare as it may be) would be if the thug was attacking a neighbor; then it would be my duty. I certainly WOULD confront a "prowler" once he/she becomes an intruder. And I would be armed.

I certainly would NOT let prowlers continue unchallenged, at least in some way. I would verbally confront them -- from my house -- and warn them of the consequences (me and the police). If they view life "cheaply," they will simply go to a discount sell down the street at another unsuspecting neighbor's house.

It is always good policy to challenge ANY thug/crim who is prowling; to do otherwise is to enable and give political succor to them.

[Kaleva]

3. Calling the police would be challenging them....

and yelling out of a window letting the prowlers know you are armed and have made the call would be too. But only go so far as what you can back up. One wouldn't yell to them that if they don't vacate the premises, you are going to come outside and kick their asses.

[SteveM]

6. Well, I'm too old to ass-kick...

We are in agreement on what happens "outside." On the "inside" is where it matters: I can get to my revolver faster than I can complete a 9-1-1 call, though I will make a follow-up.

[slackmaster]

4. A super-bright flashlight is useful for that kind of situation

One like police use to stun suspects.

Stun, then interrogate.

And carry a good weapon such as a handgun or shotgun.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. My 1911 makes a bright flash when loaded with Federal HST .45+P ;)

I imagine it "stuns" well too... but depending on the shot placement, interrogation might be difficult.

[Euromutt]

11. Remember gun safety rule #4

Using muzzle flash to identify your target is probably not the best idea from a legal perspective.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

12. You mean when the power goes out... you don't use muzzle flash to find the bathroom?

[doc03]

18. A super bright flashlight gives the intruder a super

great target to shoot at. You know someone is usually holding a flashlight and standing directly behind it..You want to stun an intruder, pump a shell into your 870 shotgun that is the sound no intruder wants to hear.

[Euromutt]

26. Here's a fun experiment

Try spending five minutes in a dark room, and then flash a 3W flashlight or a weaponlight--even a fairly basic one like an Insight M3--in your face. It may cause you to reconsider the idea that any person on the receiving end is going to be capable of aimed fire anytime soon. There's a reason the put "momentary on/off" buttons or rocker switches on those things.

Me, I like weaponlights, though mostly for purposes of target identification.

[virginia mountainman]

5. I consider..

Any stranger in my house, in the middle of the night, IS a deadly threat, that MUST BE DEALT WITH. If you are inside my house, late at night, I WILL ASSUME you mean my family harm, this is a logical assumption, that has held up in court time and time again.

You mention, you don't know how well armed they are?? Well, they clearly won't know how well, I, my wife, and my kids are armed.... When I married my wife, I took a solemn vow, to protect her and our children, I am willing to do thatto my dying breath, if need be.

I would far rather, trust to my skill, and ability, than trust a total stranger's mercy.

May god have mercy on there soul, because I won't.

[Taitertots]

13. Someone should tell that guy that

his AK mag is NOT a grip.

[Artie Bucco]

14. Uhh

I shoot mine like that all the time never a hiccup.

[Taitertots]

15. That doesn't make it right

It is like using the magazine for bench support, putting rounds in one at a time, or using friction as a bolt hold open.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. I confronted a poacher the other day.

No license.
In the State Park.
River closed to all fishing, year round, for the last ten years or so.


First I tried calling the Park Rangers, but State Patrol (who dispatches for them) wasn't able to reach them. Then I tried getting ahold of a game warden by calling the Department of Fish and Wildlife. Phone menu was broken. 'Press one to report a fish or game violation' (Beep)........ Press two for Campsites (WTF Beep beep beep)...... Press three for....


So, unable to raise either police department that would have jurisdiction, I confronted him, said 'hey, you can't actually fish in this river'. We talked a bit, he claimed he just moved here from Kansas, and I don't know Kansas game managment laws, so no idea if it was reasonable for him not to know anything about our State law. Gave him directions to the nearest Sporting Goods store where he can get a license, and the book that lists streams and rivers that are off-limits, and all the various rules.

He got off cheap. I'd hate to think what all the fines would have been. He might have even gone to jail for it, I don't know. Game Warden's discretion I think.


Anyway, I wouldn't have confronted him at all, had I not been carrying. Too many drunk, dangerous, belligerent yahoos in the state parks and forests now. Initial impression, he sure looked like a punk, but he was quite contrite about the whole thing.

[OttavaKarhu]

21. But you handled this in community

You talked to him. He may have been lying or FOS. But you talked to him as a member of the community, apprising him of the community's standards.

Some of us punks are pretty law abiding all in all. My real point is, you set a limit, he respected it, you talked to him, he now has the impression that these guidelines are there for a reason. Not forced, not inflicted. A matter of community need and negotiation.

I deal with poachers locally all the time, and most are of this sort. Many are illegals being exploited by local or regional businesses.

So I'm glad you didn't get through to the hotlines...but I'm also glad you had them in case this was a worst case.

As for someone entering my home without my consent, it's the same thing as entering my body without my consent. Lock and load.

[proteus_lives]

9. I would confront and call the police.

I'd call the police first if I had the time but I would always confront an intruder on my property or in my home. One of the reason I have a weapon is to defend myself and my property. If you're not willing to defend something, you don't deserve it.

[Kaleva]

10. A post by GreenStormCloud

"The cops are spread pretty thin. It just isn't practical to call the cops for every noise. That said, I must admit that I once called them for a stray noise. (For brevity I won't go into the story.) Often, we just aren't sure what the noise was. Stray animals? Prowler? Other? Sometimes we have to check it out for ourselves. If we do decide to see what it is, we have to go out prepared for the worst and hoping for the best. Just as buying a gun is an advance action of preparing for the worst, there are some other things that can be done too.

Install some flood lights that can be turned on from inside the house. Set them so that all outside areas can be lit up. Normally, just having lights suddenly turn on is enough to send most criminals running. But not always.

Have a peephole in the door. Look though it before opening the door. Sounds simple, but most homes still don't have a peephole.

Hyperbright LED spotlights are available for about $30.00. They are rechargable. Handy for lots of purposes. Here is mine. It is smaller than the picture appears. When I hold it, my little finer is partially below the handle. The beam is dazzlingly bright, and at 150 feet still throws a usable beam. Hold it at an arm's length to check out areas that aren't lit up by the houseflood lights.


Dogs are a different question. They can definately be a help, but they are expensive and require time and loving attention. And they can tie you down.

Weapons choice is problematic. I would prefer a tactical shotgun, but if I have to use one hand for the light then I will have to use a handgun. But I am not hunting for BGs, hoping to bag one. The purpose of the gun is to give me a chance if everything goes bad. If I do see someone, I will retreat if possible to inside the house.

If you are able to confirm that someone is outside without confronting them, then don't confront them. It is time to retreat and call the police. Your objective is to protect your family and yourself. Stuff can be replaced. You have no guarantees that you will win a gunfight. Even a fatally wounded BG can kill you with a lucky shot from his .25 as he spasms.

For a gunhead, I'm not sounding very macho, am I? Talking about retreating from BGs and all that. That's OK. I want my family and myself alive and unhurt when it is over.

From inside your residence take a position - preplanned - and cover the entry zones. There is a reason why cops and military call doors "dead zones" or "death frames" and names like that. My choice for that weapon would be a 12ga short barreled pump, with a .45 for back-up. Stay on the phone to the cops until they get there, even if you have to start shooting. The 9-11 recording will become evidence to establish what happened. But stay on that phone so the dispatcher can tell you when the cops are there, just in case you don't see them.

If the BG busts into the house, then my state's Castle Doctrine comes into play. No more retreat. He has just stepped into the "kill zone" and I will be firing the shotgun rapid fire.

The fact is, almost all the time the noise will turn out to have been nothing but a stray animal. And that is the reason why you didn't call the cops at first, because you didn't want to waste their time on nothing. You are going outside to make sure that it is a nothing, expecting it to be a nothing, but just in case it is a nightmare you go prepared."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=4037695&mesg_id=4038213

[Euromutt]

16. It's "damn stupid" with hindsight, but at the time...

It was evidently unwise for Laut to have tried to confront the prowlers outside his house, but let's be realistic: how often does a prowler just open fire the way these types did? Heck, when he stepped outside, Laut may not known that whatever he was confronting was a human. The L.A. Times article said the part of town he lived in wasn't noted for a significant amount of violent crime, so he may have just thought it was raccoons in the garbage or something (which would be the most likely source of noise in my yard). And I can readily imagine that there are people who don't want to adopt the policy of barricading yourself in your house and calling the cops at the slightest stirring in the rhododendrons; who wants to feel like they're living with a siege mentality? (Though mind you, most cops I've known have always said, "we'd rather you called us out twenty times for nothing than that you didn't call us out that one time when we were needed.")

Still, evidently, what seems--should be--reasonable can evidently sometimes get you killed, so how do you walk that path between feeling like you're a prisoner in your own home, jumping at every shadow outside, on the one hand, and not exposing yourself to needless risk to life and limb on the other?

People have mentioned light, and external floods definitely can't hurt. Preferably positioned to light up the yard while giving leaving you a place from which observe without being outlined would be good. This does have to be combined with eliminating places of concealment from the yard, or the lights are just going to cast deeper shadows for any miscreants to hide in. Carrying a powerful hand-held light to shine into parts that have been left dark is also a good idea.

[JonQ]

17. If he'd been unarmed

the story could well have been: unarmed man killed in his own home during robbery. Not sure if that would have been better.

Being armed is no guarantee of safety, but if you know what you're doing it improves the odds substantially.

[doc03]

19. I just discovered today a law became effective in

Ohio last September known as the Castle Doctrine. It removes the duty to retreat from a criminal attack before using force to defend yourself or another if you are lawfully in a your residence or vehicle(vehicle must be owned by you or a family member). In such situations, the burden of proof that an act was not self defense falls on the prosecution provided the defender was lawfully in the residence or vehicle and the attacker was not. So in other words if I find someone in my home uninvited tonight I can legally shoot them and then call 911 for the Sheriff and Coroner. The new law also bars criminal offenders or their attorneys from recovering damages for injuries they receive while engaged in specified criminal acts even if not charged. This was signed into law by Gov. Ted Strickland (D).

[ManiacJoe]

20. It is a bit more complicated than that.

But you are correct in that the "duty to retreat" has been removed.

[OttavaKarhu]

22. All that analysis is moot

Enter my home without consent, and you get the same response as if you enter my body without my consent. Lock and load and you have one second to show you are backing down from your violation of me.

I live with a Surveillance Parrot who knows well before any of us if someone is approaching the house from any direction. The door and windows are there for a reason: they are BOUNDARIES.

But this story is not about home invasion. HE WENT OUTSIDE TO INVESTIGATE GUN SHOTS. He went outside, unarmed, in the dark, to investigate GUN SHOTS, of PROWLERS (read: non-law-abiding people) who were outside SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER.

I'd say he died of a case of Superman Syndrome. I can't imagine any small, female, physically disabled person acting that way in that situation. The news stories all make a big deal out of him being an Olympic Shot Putter, and showing him with his bulging muscles. Um, sorry, but muscles don't stop tool-using predators, tools do.

Friends in that area said, "But this is a NICE area, this has never happened here!" Uh, sorry, but ignorance of evil is what evil feeds on.

[iverglas]

23. uh huh

He went outside, unarmed, in the dark ... muscles don't stop tool-using predators, tools do.

Would it have helped him to have a gun?

Just asking your opinion, of course.

[OttavaKarhu]

24. I'm new here, but I know the smell of Troll.

[iverglas]

25. hahahahahahahahaha

Stop sniffing your armpits now, it's rude.

:rofl:

[Tim01]

27. Hi new guy.

Be careful not to let any antis bait you into loosing your temper and getting yourself banned. That does seem to be the goal with some of them. If you find your temper going up, you are probably being manipulated. Be careful.