Utah Legislature: 'Flashing' of guns has broad support ...

[spin]

Published: Saturday, Feb. 20, 2010 9:44 p.m. MST

SALT LAKE CITY — As gun rights bills flow through the Legislature, a new poll shows Utahns support gun owners displaying their weapons if they feel threatened.

Sixty-five percent of respondents favor HB78, according to a Deseret News/KSL-TV poll conducted by Dan Jones & Associates, while 30 percent oppose the idea. The poll has a margin of error of 5 percent.

The survey of 410 Utahns also revealed that more educated and wealthier respondents were less likely to support the proposal.

Mirroring legislative debates, 70 percent of Republicans favored the bill while 56 percent of Democrats indicated support.

HB78, which is waiting for Senate approval, would allow concealed weapon permit holders to "flash" their gun or tell someone that they are carrying a weapon.

***snip***

Gun rights advocates as well as state prosecutors have hailed the proposal as a much-needed clarification.

Sandstrom has also introduced legislation that would offer businesses immunity from litigation if there were a shooting on their property, as well as a bill that would require hotels to allow customers to bring guns into their rooms.

Support for gun rights in Utah may come as no surprise, as a Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence report ranks Utah's gun laws as the loosest in the nation.

According to a press release from the gun-control advocacy group, Utah is the first state to ever score a "0" in its analysis of state laws.

For Sandstrom, the proposal marks a step toward reducing gun violence in the state.

"This gives people another option where they don't have to actually fire their gun to defend themselves," he said.

[tridim]

1. OMFG.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. This may be to distinguish the line between merely showing you are armed versus brandishing.

Brandishing, of course, being unaccaptable in non-life-threatening situations.

Some states have laws saying a weapon may not be visible or it is a offense. eg: no "printing" or "semi-concealed".
In such a scenario, it may not be technically legal to try and persuade a criminal otherwise, without actually drawing your firearm.
This law allows for carryiers to use the detterent effect of the firarm without having to handle it or use it.

This law is NOT intended to be carte blanc to run around public waving your gun around.

[mvccd1000]

22. Exactly. Arizona is fixing the same problem in law this year. nt

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[villager]

4. the toxic insanity of these people: Flash a gun, get support from craven politicos; flash a breast

...and it's a ticket, or an arrest, for you!

[Katya Mullethov]

9. The term , as coined by Anslinger

Is " instant toxic murderous insanity " and was often embellished with a "from as little as one dose" hanging off the end . When dealing in hyperbole as with any art , it is best to look to the greats and emulate them until you find your own style .

[villager]

16. ???

:shrug:

[Tim01]

23. You are so mean.

And funny.:P

[villager]

35. Obtuse, and off-topic, more likely...

n/t

[gorfle]

29. Wow, I agree with villager!

Please, flash more boobies! :)

[villager]

37. nah -- the same politicos that encourage gun-flashing are terrified of 'em...

only insinuations of violence are allowed in public!

[gorfle]

42. fear the bewbies!

.

[PavePusher]

43. NOOOOoooOOooooOooo!

I like boobies...

[gorfle]

45. Here is boobies for you,

[Katya Mullethov]

46. The promiscuous blue footed boobie

Quit fuckin' around !

[benEzra]

5. In Kansas, if someone is threatening your life, you can legally shoot them...

but you can't legally show them you are armed without shooting them. That is asinine. I suspect this law is intended to correct a similar situation, and allow more leeway in warning without counterproductive repercussions.

Or would you prefer that the law encourage shooting rather than warning?

[spin]

12. Agreed...

that's why if you do encounter a violent individual and you are able to stop his attack by merely drawing your weapon (he turns and runs), it's wise to call the police immediately before he does.

[Tim01]

24. Exactly what I was thinking. nt

[aikoaiko]

6. This bill allows open carry, communication of the fact of carrying, and when drawing is justified

This bill:
. provides for the open carrying of a firearm and communication of that fact to another person by the one carrying the firearm;
. provides for the drawing or exhibiting of a firearm by an individual who reasonably believes that the individual or another person is threatened with bodily harm;
. provides for an investigative procedure by a peace officer of instances that appear to involve the justifiable use of force; and . makes certain technical changes.

http://le.utah.gov/~2010/bills/hbillint/HB0078.htm

So what's wrong with this law?

[spin]

13. I think the law is a good idea. (n/t)

[Don Caballero]

7. All these new gun laws will only backfire

Really getting over the top.

[spin]

10. Or they will spread ...

Many life threatening situations are stopped when the victim shows he/she is armed. No shots are fired and no one is injured.

Waiting until the attack in in progress to draw and fire your weapon, as required in many states, can lead to injury or death.

[Tim01]

25. They haven't backfired anywhere else for a long time now. nt

[EC]

8. Is Utah really that dangerous a state to visit?

Allowing guns in hotel rooms etc. makes me believe it's not safe in your hotel room or that visitors are being threatened or robbed...solution?...don't go to Utah....

[spin]

11. Th Brady Campaign scores Utah as the lowest state and California the best...

in their gun control rankings.

However, if you look at the FBI's Uniform Crime Statistics from 2005 through 2008 you find California had the 18th highest murder rate and Utah was 49th. The violent crime rate in California ranks California at number 15 and Utah at number 46.

While it's unfair to say that Utah's "lax" gun laws caused a decrease in crime, it is fair to say that those laws did not cause an skyrocketing in the crime rate.

Utah looks like a extremely safe state to visit or live.

[PavePusher]

20. No more dangerous than...

any other of the many states that allow the same things. Most of which are fantastic places to visit.

And guess what? Crime happens everywhere. Unless, of course, your precognition is much better than mine...

[Tim01]

26. Not nearly as dangerous as D.C. nt

[GreenStormCloud]

33. What's wrong with a gun in your hotel room.

Let's say that you are from a state that has CC reciprocity with UT and you go to a city in UT. You get a hotel room. While you are out and about you are going to carry concealed, just as you always do. Where are you going to keep your gun when you are back at the hotel?

[TheWraith]

41. Or a much simpler explanation...

Some people who have to travel on business carry a firearm with them, particularly if they carry important documents or items. Allowing them to keep their gun with them in their hotel room is only the rational thing to do.

[onehandle]

14. I flash the sticks of dynamite strapped around my waist.

Guns are so last week.

[jeepnstein]

15. Being on the leading edge of fashion can be so difficult.

[Amber Lamps]

17. They blow up so fast

[jeepnstein]

27. Here today...

and then "poof" they're gone.

[safeinOhio]

18. Not sure, would like to know.

Even in a state with a brandishing law, would it still be legal to verbally announce that you are legally carrying a concealed weapon and are prepared to use it if you feel your life or safety is being threatened? If legal it would almost make showing your weapon unnecessary. Of course the other person could always claim you brandished because he now knows you are carrying a firearm. Your defense would have to be to a demand for him to accurately describe the type of gun brandished and location of it.

[Euromutt]

19. Utah's well behind Washington state on this one

RCW 9.41.270
Weapons apparently capable of producing bodily harm — Unlawful carrying or handling — Penalty — Exceptions.

(1) It shall be unlawful for any person to carry, exhibit, display, or draw any firearm, dagger, sword, knife or other cutting or stabbing instrument, club, or any other weapon apparently capable of producing bodily harm, in a manner, under circumstances, and at a time and place that either manifests an intent to intimidate another or that warrants alarm for the safety of other persons.
<...>
(3) Subsection (1) of this section shall not apply to or affect the following:
<...>
(c) Any person acting for the purpose of protecting himself or herself against the use of presently threatened unlawful force by another, or for the purpose of protecting another against the use of such unlawful force by a third person; <...>

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.270

[spin]

21. Florida law is similar...

790.10 Improper exhibition of dangerous weapons or firearms.--If any person having or carrying any dirk, sword, sword cane, firearm, electric weapon or device, or other weapon shall, in the presence of one or more persons, exhibit the same in a rude, careless, angry, or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense, the person so offending shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=&URL=Ch0790/SEC10.HTM&Title=-%3E2009-%3ECh0790-%3ESection%2010#0790.10

[gorfle]

28. I disagree with this proposal.

I disagree with "flashing" a firearm for the same reason I disagree with open carry.

All it does is show your cards and attract attention.

I am still firmly in the camp that you don't produce a firearm for self-defense until the time for actual shooting has occurred. This is not to say that you must shoot once you have produced it, only that you should not produce it unless it is your intent to use it.

[PavePusher]

30. Open carry does NOT equate to "intent to use".

And in Utah, Arizona, New Hampshire and Vermont it does not seem to attract excessive attention. I know, not a particularly representative or complete sampling, but that's my current data base. I'll work on adding more info...:-)

[gorfle]

34. Hmmm.

Open carry does NOT equate to "intent to use".

I would say that if you are carrying a firearm that is a pretty good indicator that you intend to use it if you deem necessary.

In any case, that is not my point of disagreeing with open carry.

As I have said before, in my combat training my instructor made the case, which I agree with, that showing arms attracts attention in two bad ways.

Firstly, you may come across people who decide to see if you are a "tough guy" and try to push your buttons to see if they can get a reaction out of you. To see, as it is said, if you will "put your money where your mouth is".

Secondly, by advertising yourself as a higher threat than everyone else, anyone around you who is bent on doing something criminal is likely to now deal with you first, rather than at random as would normally be the case.

There is, of course, always the possibility that being armed will deter bad guys from doing bad things around you.

But given the two bad potential consequences vs. the one good one, I think it is smarter to simply carry concealed and anonymously.

In short, the element of surprise is almost always beneficial. Open carry gives away that tactical advantage.

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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[PavePusher]

39. Just another internet Tough Guy(tm).

With a larger than average dose of bigotry and sexism.

Nothing to see here....

[GreenStormCloud]

32. Brady Campaign already gives UT a zero. Will Brady start using negative grades?

Of course, I would consider that as 100+.

[smoogatz]

36. The bill clearly doesn't go far enough.

What about firing a series of warning shots at the feet of the person who makes you feel threatened while you yell, "Dance, boy! Dance!" If I can't make potential assailants dance, am I truly free?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PavePusher]

44. O.K., I guess I deserved that... My apologies to the poster and the Board. n/t