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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 01:44 PM
Original message
Liberals who defend gun rights ...


Claudette Ortiz: The case of liberals who defend gun rights ...

Because of a Supreme Court argument, McDonald vs. Chicago, the liberals who defend gun rights are coming out of the woodwork. The Supreme Court is expected to rule before June on the case that decides whether or not state and local ordinances violate the Second Amendment.

It should be no surprise that there are liberals who see gun rights as part and parcel of their individual rights, and going hand-in-hand with abortion rights, gay rights and civil rights. Bodily autonomy is important to liberals.

The liberal view is, if a woman looks in her empty pantry and knows without a doubt that she and her husband cannot feed another child, the choice is hers because it is her body and her family. Likewise, what a body does in his own bedroom is his own business. So why wouldn't any person big on bodily autonomy also support the gun rights that protect that body and the bodies of his or her family?

Liberals in the West are more used to having a gun around. There is a healthy respect for its power. There are safety courses to pass in order to hunt, just like there are tests for driver's licenses in order to drive. Having gun racks and gun cabinets in the house is like having a car in the driveway and a swimming pool in the backyard. Anyone afraid of gun cabinets should be petrified of the car in the driveway and the water in the pool. They are all deadly if combined with liquor or neglect or homicidal tendencies. The more power we hold, the more responsibility we hold. Karate teachers don't teach hot-heads for the same reason; its discipline is as important as its power.

For families in the West, conservative and liberal alike, most of the guns are simply collected for interest and value. Then there are the hunting rifles to clean and care for. If there is a gun carried as an instrument for protection, it is nothing to dwell upon anymore than wearing boots in high grass. It has its practical aspect, but it isn't the reason for the trip, any more than the chance to get bit by a snake is the reason for walking around in high grass.

***snip***

Rather than seeing gun rights through the narrow interpretation of a militia's right to bear arms, the brief filed by the Constitutional Accountability Center defends individual gun rights in McDonald vs. Chicago. The liberal CAC is beating the NRA drum in the name of bodily autonomy and it's about time. Gun rights are a mechanism to protect a body from attack.
http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-opinion/ci_14751179




The Unlikely Liberal Case for Gun Rights
Liberals and the NRA have found common cause in a pending supreme court case.


When the constitutional accountability Center launched in 2008, it looked like just another liberal legal-advocacy group, dedicated to "fulfilling the progressive promise of our Constitution's text and history." The causes it has backed run the standard liberal gamut: among other things, the group supports California's efforts to regulate carbon emissions and pushes for "robust due-process protections for immigrant criminal defendants." So if you were told that the CAC had filed an amicus brief in McDonald v. Chicago, a case about gun control to be argued before the Supreme Court this week, you might think it was siding with Chicago, whose restrictions on gun ownership are being challenged.

You would be wrong. For decades, liberals have opposed gun rights on the grounds that the Second Amendment is limited to the establishment of state militias. But some liberal dissenters from this view now say that is too narrow a reading of the Constitution. They contend that it fails to take into account the historical record and contradicts liberals' own reading of the Constitution's protection of individual rights.

The CAC has joined forces with staunch conservatives, including Steven G. Calabresi, cofounder of the Federalist Society, to support expanding individual rights, including gun rights, in the states—inviting the possibility that Chicago's virtual ban on handguns might be overturned. "There is a deeply progressive historical basis for some individual right to bear arms," says Douglas Kendall, the CAC's founder.

This is still far from the standard liberal view. But Kendall does have allies. Some sharp liberal legal minds are part of his campaign to reverse and embrace the right to gun ownership. "I believe in an individual right to bear arms, consistent with a living Constitution," says Adam Winkler, a professor of law at UCLA and a frequent participant in the American Constitution Society, the liberal answer to the Federalist Society. Winkler was one of eight scholars, including other prominent liberals, who signed the CAC's brief in the McDonald case.

What is going on here? For much of the nation's history, Kendall and his supporters argue, the right to bear arms was considered essential to citizenship. "Forty-two states in their state constitutions provide protections for the right to bear arms," says Winkler. "It is one of the longest-standing, most deeply entrenched rights in American history."
http://news.malaysia.msn.com/newsweek/news/article.aspx?cp-documentid=3912129




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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. I love it...! n/t
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good stuff, although the title of the second article
"The Unlikely Liberal Case for Gun Rights" makes my head spin, since it's only "unlikely" due to the prevalence of irrational thought on this issue.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. The words liberals and guns have widely become associated ...
with gun control.

This of course, is a misconception and a stereotype. Many very liberal people in the past have been known to carry. One such person was Eleanor Roosevelt.


Driving my own car was one of the issues the Secret Service people and I had a battle about at the very start. The Secret Service prefers to have an agent go with the President’s wife, but I did not want either a chauffeur or a Secret Service agent always with me; I never did consent to having a Secret Service agent. After the head of the Secret Service found I was not going to allow an agent to accompany me everywhere, he went one day to Louis Howe , plunked a revolver down on the table and said ‘Well, all right, if Mrs. Roosevelt is going to drive around the country alone, at least ask her to carry this in the car.’ I carried it religiously and during the summer I asked a friend, a man who had been one of Franklin’s bodyguards in New York State, to give me some practice in target shooting so that if the need arose I would know how to use the gun.” — Eleanor Roosevelt

Eleanor Roosevelt’s Concealed Carry Application


http://www.snubnose.info/wordpress/rkba/eleanor-roosevelts-concealed-carry-application/



Here you see the First Lady, Eleanor Roosevelt shooting her revolver.
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://www.firearmstrainingbyelrod.com/Ladies_Only_Classes.html&h=366&w=504&sz=109&tbnid=E1kfa91MsTthRM:&tbnh=94&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deleanor%2Broosevelt%2Bshooting%2Bhandgun%2Bpicture&hl=en&usg=__-HsQFitQYn8Rfrd80hJ4W69r8Gc=&ei=v6uvS8XvK4SBlAfNpojUDQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=1&ct=image&ved=0CAgQ9QEwAA

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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. it is a stereotype, but it's based in reality
as many stereotypes are

most people who self-identify as liberals have not historically supported RKBA.

liberal seattle city council and seattle mayors, for example, have tried to thwart the state constitution and state law on this issue etc.

hawaii and mass, two very liberal states i have lived in both severely restrict firearms carry (getting a permit in HI is nigh impossible. even cops can't get them. i couldn't)

just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's not true IN THE AGGREGATE.

it's just wrong to apply stereotypes to individuals, because individuals vary

heck, there are some liberals who are anti-choice (iirc kucinich was for some time). but the stereotype that liberals are pro-choice is true. MOST of them (*by a wide margin) are

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Growing up in the South, I've found that not as true for liberal women.
Particularly if they grew up in rural areas, they are very open to gun rights and many grew up shooting and continue to do so. I think that the mindset of many liberals from the city definitely leans more towards gun-control, however. So this may be an urban vs. rural attitude as opposed to a western vs. eastern attitude.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. as well as a north vs. south thing
let's not forget the old new yorker magazine cover illustration of new york and the country beyond (iow, nothing but wasteland)

there is definitely an urbancentric bias (recall the comments about "flyover country"), just as there is a northeastern bias

i agree

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Sure, but it depends upon what areas of the north...
once again, having lived in New Hampshire and Western Mass liberal rural women tend to not have issues with guns. However, the suburbs probably have a similar attitude wrt gun ownership as goes the nearest city.
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paulsby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. yes
new hampshire and vermont are full of people who are a lot more self-sufficient and common sense when it comes to guns

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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. She's one of my favorite women!
She didn't take shit from nobody!
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Mar-28-10 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. Damn right!!!
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Nailzberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 02:20 AM
Response to Original message
11. The right to bear arms is a liberal idea.
I once had a federal agent tell me he thought there was nothing more liberal than a government that allows it's citizens to speak against itself and remain armed at the same time.
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spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-29-10 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Freedom of speech, freedom of religion and assembly and RKBA ...
Imagine how progressive and liberal the first and second amendment in the Bill of Rights were in 1789 when most nations were ruled by a monarch.

And those ideas are still very progressive and liberal today.

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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-30-10 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hear, Hear.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-08-10 02:48 AM
Response to Original message
14. kicked n/t
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I Am So Me Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Guns Kill People
Guns should never be allowed into the general populace. The second ammendment is an abomination and should never have bee allowed in the BoR. Guns only turn otherwise rationally thinking and compassionate people into killers because the only things guns are for are for killing people. It's nuts.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. Don't forget that guns also blight crops, poison wells and drink the blood of Christian children
Guns only turn otherwise rationally thinking and compassionate people into killers because the only things guns are for are for killing people.

Wow, who knew inanimate assemblies of steel, aluminum, polymer and/or wood possess magical powers of mind control, in defiance of all known laws of physics? Isn't it odd, then, that in the first half of the 14th century, murder rates in western Europe were generally ten times the current U.S. murder rate? Especially since there weren't even any guns around back then.
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OneTenthofOnePercent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. That's odd... the word "guns" is nowhere in the second ammendment.
I believe the 2A refers to ARMS which could mean any number of tools one might use as a freedom-fighting tool.
This makes perfect sense, as the 2A affirms the right of The People to exercise the natural right of self defense from tyrants.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Katya Mullethov Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Subspaniards ?
Dibs on innerweb royalties for that one , Please bear in mind my propeller head friend ,that reality is subjective, but poorly executed sarcasm does not constitute a glimpse into any 5th dimension .


All that aside and in the rare cases when you sense that such claims of wizardry and demands for time-space continuum modification are truly heartfelt you must repect their culture , beliefs , and neuroses . Just at they respect yours .
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PavePusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Coffee... in... sinuses... BURNS!
Edited on Sun May-23-10 10:19 AM by PavePusher
:spray:

Thanks for the great start to the day!
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petronius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Aww, damn! When a post apparently produces such an awesome new word,
I wish the mods would let it stand as a monument to interweb brilliance. Perhaps just blank out the offensive parts or something...

:)
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
23. That is what makes them such excellent tools for self-defense.
A mugger will be very hesitant to attack me if he knows I can kill him with a flick of a finger. Since I am a senior citizen, I serious doubt that I could defend myself against a young thug if he attacked me.

Your dream of a gun-free country would leave me defenseless against street criminals. Notice that the UK, which is basically gun-free has a violent street crime rate of about three times what our rate is.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Aw, c'mon, GSC; you're spoiling the trope!
First, you're raising the possibility that killing might not ipso facto be morally wrong; i.e. that there is a difference between murder and killing in self-defense.

Second, you're raising the possibility that firearms can be used for self-defense by threat alone, without anyone actually having to be killed. And that means that guns are suitable for uses other than killing alone.

You're spoiling a perfectly good slogan with nuance. Stop it at once!
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #24
34. The difference between murder and homicide is old, indeed.
Edited on Mon Jun-07-10 06:36 PM by Callisto32
My understanding is that even the old, over=simple translation that the 10 commandments say "thou shalt not kill" is actually better translated as "thou shalt not commit murder." That our earthly languages differentiate is also a good indicator.

These kinds of differentiations are part of what has led me to settle on the harm principle. If we all (more or less) agree that the problem lies not with the use of force, but with the initiation of force, then force should, for the most part, cease. As an added bonus, the view allows people to defend themselves from aggression with a similar level of force as used against them.

It all seems to make so much sense, and yet some reject the idea. Strange, no?

Edit: A sentence made no sense as it stood. Fixed
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Travis Coates Donating Member (489 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #15
26. OMG Shares got himself cloned NT
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Or a disciple... nt
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cowman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. I think it's
cabluedem reincarnated
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Lurks Often Donating Member (505 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
29. Huh
I've been shooting for 37 years, competitively for 15 of those years and I've never shot anybody or even pointed a loaded gun at anyone. The only time I have pointed a unloaded gun at someone was in the military under stringent safety rules and no live ammo was even present. So if I am to believe you, why haven't I shot anybody? Did I not get the guns that project evil out of them or is it because you are delusional and are unable to comprehend the basic fact that crime is a function of social and economic pressures?

Hmmm, me, I'm kind of leaning toward the "you are delusional and are unable to comprehend the basic fact that crime is a function of social and economic pressures?" theory.
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east texas lib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
And it's raining guns! Aaaaaaahhhhh!!!!
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SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #15
32. Mine wee-wee in the gun safe. What a mess. nt
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Callisto32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #15
33. 15 posts? And you produce THIS tripe?
Methinks thou dost stirrest the pot to much.

Either discuss, or go find a bridge.
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pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-07-10 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. He's been enjoying a pizza for almost a month...
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Trachimbrod Donating Member (26 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #15
38. Sorry! I misread the post's date! No text
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 05:23 PM by Trachimbrod
:D
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
39. What other civil rights do you oppose so vehement;ly?
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #15
40. I like cheese.
That pretty much sums up your argument against guns.
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rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-22-10 11:06 PM
Response to Original message
20. Eight years of chimpboy
had a lot of libeals rethinking this whole gun thing...
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-23-10 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
27. I posted this previously, but given the subject of this thread it's perhaps

timely to put up Dave Kopel's thoughts on the liberal arguments for gun ownership:

http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OpEds/liberal-argument-for-gun-ownership.htm
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Xela Donating Member (787 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
37. 2nd article looks straight out of Newsweek
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:40 PM by Xela
Saw this source (to 2nd article in the OP) just a couple of hours ago in my copy of Newsweek:
http://www.newsweek.com/2010/02/25/gun-rally.html

It's interesting how the author is ignorant of liberals such as Don B. Kates, et al. We have brought up this particular title before: Restricting Handguns, Liberals Skeptics Speak...oh, what's this...it dates back to 1979!!!!

http://www.amazon.com/Restricting-Handguns-Liberal-Skeptics-Speak/dp/0884270335/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277955097&sr=1-11

Xela

(Upon edit: Doh!!! The Malaysia article says it right there: Newsweek!!!! Sorry.)
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-07-10 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
41. If you like those articles, check out this on Daily Kos
Edited on Wed Jul-07-10 07:36 AM by one-eyed fat man
Why liberals should love the Second Amendment

WARNING: Cogent, fact-based arguments may cause popping veins, bulging eyes, profuse stammering or exploding head pain in those who may be sensitive.
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-11 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
42. kick NT
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-10-11 03:55 AM
Response to Original message
43. kick NT
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jazzhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-11 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
44. kick NT
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Hoopla Phil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-12-11 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
45. Time to kick this thread.
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