Shopping with guns (Man and woman open carry in Wisconsin)

[shadowrider]

NEW BERLIN, Wis. - There’s some bother near the broccoli.

Anxiety spilled on aisle four.

But the concern is not from customers, who seem fairly oblivious to two armed people moving through their supermarket on this Sunday afternoon.

The tension is from staff, who carefully track the armed duo and a QMI Agency journalist who’s in pursuit.

On Nik Clark’s hip is a jet-black Glock - its full clip bulging like the weightlifter’s arms.

Hugging Kim Garny’s slender hip is a more diminutive - but still formidable - Smith and Wesson .38 Special. And it’s just that, with its soft pink, girly grip, that waves just above her holster.

Neither holds a permit for their loaded guns. But no sirens wail.

Instead, a lone, nervous looking manager of some sort moves in. It’s not the guns he’s concerned about, but rather the Canadian journalist’s camera that’s now shooting up the area.

Once reassured, the manager breathes a sigh of relief, before warning: “Please, just don’t video any of the empty bread shelves. Looks bad.”

http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/thane_burnett/2010/04/22/13683826.html

It's MAGAZINE, NOT a CLIP

[polly7]

1. Holy *t.

Why would anyone feel the need to carry a loaded gun to shop??

Just seeing them would freak me out. I see no problem with a gun for protection in the home or vehicle but openly carrying in public, where anything could go wrong in an instant, just amazes me. I feel sorry for the store workers.

[shadowrider]

2. Police open carry

Aren't you afraid something could go wrong in an instant?

[polly7]

6. Yes. Actually, I am.

Many cases where citizens have been shot needlessly by the police ..... who are trained. Seeing someone armed shopping who possibly got out of bed that morning with a hate-one for someone or something worries me. My opinion only. I lost a very good friend as a child to guns, his brother accidentally shot him, I've dealt with GSW's with the ambulance. I just wonder at the need to openly carry in such a public place. So many things could go wrong.

[PavePusher]

27. Since Wisconsin does not currently allow any concealed carry...

that is the only way to "bear arms" in that state.

It's done a lot of other places as well. If you feel you'd "freak out", you may consider avoiding Arizona. Or Vermont. Utah. Califonia. New Hampshire. Virginia.....

[friendly_iconoclast]

4. Chill out, there was no blood on the cheese. n/t

[polly7]

7. Thanks for the advice. nt.

[spin]

5. I often carry in a grocery store ...

Why should I leave my firearm in the car when I'm inside the store. It might get stolen.

Also, I have to walk from the car to the store and back. The store may be safe, but the parking lot is another matter.

But then in Florida I can legally carry concealed as I have a permit. All you ever would see is a polite older man with a bad limp. You would never know that I am carrying a .38 snub nosed revolver in my front pants pocket. Therefore, you would not "freak out".

Perhaps Wisconsin should allow concealed carry.

It is now 2010, and Wisconsin is one of only two states that completely prohibits anyone but police officers and sheriffs' deputies from carrying concealed weapons for self defense.

Our anti-gun opponents, led by Governor Jim Doyle, argue that Wisconsin has a relatively low crime rate compared to other states. Tell that to the 12,000+ victims of murder, attempted murder, rape, robbery, assault and other violent crimes that happen every year in our state.

With 48 other states recognizing the right of citizens to bear arms for personal defense, we believe that it's an insult to the citizens of Wisconsin to be denied their constitutional right to personal safety and security.
http://www.wisconsinconcealedcarry.com/

[polly7]

8. Pardon me ..... I guess we all have our reasons for fear of guns. nt.

[spin]

14. I don't fear guns but I do respect them ...

they are not toys. Nor are they evil. They are just inanimate objects that require knowledge and commonsense to use.

There are some basic rules for handling a firearm.

I. The Fundamentals of Firearm Safety
The three basic general rules of safe gun handling.

1. Always point the muzzle in a safe direction; never point a firearm at anyone or anything you don't want to shoot.
2. Keep your finger off the trigger and outside the trigger guard until you are ready to shoot.
3. Keep the action open and the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it.

II. Additional specific rules of safe gun handling
Safety Rules Related to the Shooter and His Behavior.

1. Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2. Never pass a firearm to another person, or accept a firearm from another person, until the cylinder or action is open and you've personally checked that the weapon is completely unloaded.
3. Before handling any firearm, understand its operation.
4. Never rely on any mechanical device for safety.
5. Think before shooting: once you pull the trigger you can't take back the shot you've just fired!
6. Never joke around or engage in horseplay while handling or using firearms.
7. Be alert at all times; never shoot if you're tired, cold or impaired in any way. Don't mix alcohol or drugs with shooting.
8. Don't sleep with a loaded firearm in your bedroom if you sleepwalk, have nightmares, sleep restlessly or have other sleep problems.
9. Safeguard your sight, hearing and health. Always wear eye and ear protection. Endeavor to limit your exposure to heavy metal particulates and gases, and minimize your contact with aromatic organic solvents (such as those commonly used in gun cleaning products).
10. If you see unsafe behavior any time when firearms are being handled or used, speak up and take action to correct the unsafe behavior at once.
11. Receive competent instruction from a qualified person before beginning to shoot. If questions arise later, after you've been shooting for a period of time, get answers to those questions from a competent authority.
http://www.uoregon.edu/~joe/firearms-safety.html

The are more safety rules at the link.

[jazzhound]

29. Unfortunately, most of that fear is based on a lack of knowledge regarding

the design of modern pistols. Would you be averse to walking into a gun store and asking one of the sales people to demonstrate why a pistol can not "accidentally" discharge?

(Especially when in a holster which provides coverage of the entire area surrounding the trigger.)

[postulater]

9. Carry wherever, but keep it in the open.

Why should someone be against letting other people know if they have a gun? Be proud of it, flaunt it!

Just let me see it so I can avoid you.

And I prefer to trust that the 'polite old man with a limp' is just that, not a gun-totin' grampa.

I'm for open carry, but not concealed carry.

[spin]

13. It's illegal to open carry in Florida in an urban environment ...

It's probably to avoid scaring the tourists who we call snowbirds. If you don't like being around people with firearms, don't come to Florida. There are 709,591 valid concealed weapons permits and people from all these states can carry concealed in Florida if they have a CCW in their state.

State CCW Permits that Florida Honors:
Alabama, Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Michigan, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, West Virginia, Wyoming,
http://apps.carryconcealed.net/legal/florida-ccw-state-laws.php

Plus Floridians can carry a loaded weapon in their vehicle as long as it is "securely encased", for example in a glove box. Many Floridians do.

It is lawful to possess a concealed firearm for self-defense or other lawful purposes within the interior of a private conveyance, without a license, if the firearm is securely encased or is otherwise not readily accessible for immediate use.

A firearm other than a handgun may be carried anywhere in a private conveyance when such firearm is being carried for a lawful use.

This exemption does not authorize the carrying of a firearm concealed on the person.
http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_fl.htm

I am indeed the proud grandfather of two teenage boys.

The limp comes from the fact that I have degenerative disk disease and I am a candidate for a hip replacement.

I would consider carrying openly if it was legal. A full sized .45 auto is a pain to conceal in hot weather, therefore I carry a much less powerful S&W Airweight .38 snub nosed revolver in my front pants pocket.

[Mother Smuckers]

10. ROFL...come down here to Mexico some time...there are people carrying real automatics all over the

place...not like those wimpy SEMI-automatics people freak out over up there. But I know how you feel, when I'm back home in the U.S. I see cops with guns in full view and I tremble uncontrollably wondering if one will suddenly go berserk.

[polly7]

11. I've been there twice, never saw those guns but I was probably in the

wrong place. Shivering uncontrollably ..... nah, I manage to control myself a little better than that. Sorry now I replied to the OP. Have a great day.

[Mother Smuckers]

12. I hope you understand I was being sarcastic (about the cops)

but in most countries south of Texas it is commonplace to see what I mentioned (especially in Guatemala just next door) but the truth is that people not involved in some kind of nefarious activity (whether they're "good" guys or "bad" ones) are rarely victimized by gun violence - even the not altogether rare plain old mugging-style robbery doesn't generally result in shots fired. I think they're too cheap to waste bullets. ;-)

[polly7]

15. No, I missed it. Thanks.

I hate guns, but can see why some see the need, in light of all the hijackings, home burglaries etc. for them in a home or even a vehicle. Carrying them in the open among citizens who may get caught up in something whether it's self-defense or accidental isn't fair to the children, store-keepers or anyone else near enough to be hurt or traumatized when they have no choice . or, I guess they do have a choice ........ stop shopping, don't work retail if you're afraid of them ....... which is sad. Not everyone shopping walks around in fear of whatever it is that makes someone else load up to go get the milk, yet they have no choice in whatever happens around them.

[Mother Smuckers]

16. I do get your concern but the fact is that you are in FAR less potential danger from someone

openly carrying a gun than from someone illegally carrying a hidden one. Bad guys bent on malice simply don't walk around displaying the tools of their criminal trade.

[polly7]

17. I'm sure guns aren't openly carried only by 'good guys', or mentally

/ emotionally stable people. Why does someone NEED a gun out shopping???

[Mother Smuckers]

18. Well, why does anyone NEED insurance? The chances of your house burning down

or being destroyed by a tornado are vanishingly small. Probably nobody will ever crash into your car and you might be one of the fortunate who never die. And think of the money you could save!

[polly7]

20. My buying insurance doesn't put others at risk for anything harmful

or intimidate, frighten, possibly injure or traumatize people who have every right to shop in comfort as someone so afraid of something they feel they need a gun.

[Mother Smuckers]

22. True, but not responsive to the 'need' question. What exactly is it about a person with a gun

that traumatizes you? Are you -really- afraid he or she is going to start shooting you or various and sundry bystanders for no reason? Surely you know better than that! There are many "frightening" things in the world but there's no inherent right to be protected from them. Most fears are irrational anyway...what's the worst thing that can happen to any of us, death? It's 100% guaranteed at some point.

[polly7]

24. That would be the fear of death and injury caused by them that

'traumatizes' me. Are you saying that fear is irrational? No, it's not. Gee, even I know s* happens, I've watched people die of gunshot wounds. If the fear that causes someone to carry a gun in such a public place is understandable, so should be the fear on the other side. S* happens, people die. Really??? Little kids too? Wow.

[GreenStormCloud]

33. You are more likely to be struck by lightning that illegally killed by a CCW permit holder. N/T

[oneshooter]

23. This incident was stopped by a CHL holder last week

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x311812

There were 5 people hurt and 5 cars damaged before a firearm was used to stop him.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SteveM]

40. Feelings and comforts, however desireable, are not "rights"...

It is very unfortunate that the rights guaranteed us by the Constitution have been equated to the feelings and comforts of Americans. This is, of course, a very poor point of departure from which to govern.

I am curious: would you be comforted if no one openly-carrying a gun? Would you be comforted if people carry concealed? In the latter instance, how would you know in order to judge your "comfort" level?

We live in a culture which is nearly obsessed with our own feelings, fears, comforts. It's tedious to me, but whatever the layers of narcissism which envelop us, we do not have "right" to be free of a fear, nor are we guaranteed to have some kind of temporal comfort.

[X_Digger]

21. The need meme.

Who's the Secretary of Need, these days?

Luckily we don't have to justify our rights. (Carrying being the 'bear' part of 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms.')

[polly7]

25. No, it was just an honest question.

I gather from reading the responses it's not about need (that fear of violence being so irrational and all), but about rights. I have the right to do lots of things that could very possibly harm others but I choose not to. I just don't understand why anyone would risk the lives of others ....... shopping in a public building ...... by openly carrying a loaded weapon. Why take the risk.

[X_Digger]

26. I support all rights.

I might not like someone's exercise of them, but I'll support anyone's ability to do so.

Whether that's a KKK rally (I'll counter-protest, but I'll support their right to demonstrate), an open carrier, or any other in-your-face-making-me-uncomfortable exercise of a right.

[Euromutt]

38. How does open carry in and of itself place others' lives at risk?

What's the proposed mechanism here? That the weapon will spontaneously jump out of the holster and start shooting people? That it will exert its powers of mind control over the bearer and cause him to empty the weapon into a crowd of strangers for no readily apparent reason?

I have the right to do lots of things that could very possibly harm others but I choose not to.

Such as? I'm inclined to think that you generally do not have a right to put others at risk of physical or material harm, and I'm hard pressed to come with examples.

[GreenStormCloud]

32. I carry when I go shopping because that is where I am more likely to be assaulted.

Of course, I try to avoid high crime areas, but I can't always do that, and sometimes crime happens even in good areas. So I am simply always prepared.

[PavePusher]

28. Umm, crime only happens at home or when traveling by car?

Where did you get that idea from?

[HALO141]

41. Business opportunity for you!

So far, I've not found a reliable method of foreseeing the future or divining the exact moment when someone might end up in a violent struggle for their own life. Some people are at home when the fight is brought to them. Some people are in their cars. Still others are out and about, going about their daily routines. If you really tell someone exactly if and when they will need to defend their life against a violent attack then I implore you to share your gift with the world! Charging even a nominal fee for such a service would make you wealthy and the rest of us much safer.

Of course, if you're like the rest of us and you don't have any if or when anyone else might be attacked then maybe you should just calm down a little bit and let others govern themselves as they see fit. As an instructor of mine used to say, "Your next gunfight will be a come-as-you-are affair."



Also... Theft from a motor vehicle is a very common crime. Handguns left inside parked vehicles are much more likely to be stolen than those kept on their owners' persons.

[jazzhound]

42. WTF?

So far, I've not found a reliable method of foreseeing the future or divining the exact moment when someone might end up in a violent struggle for their own life.

I've never once encountered a pro-rights proponent on this board who's suggested that they can forecast when an attack may/may not occur. Why are you suggesting that this is the case?

.........then maybe you should just calm down a little bit and let others govern themselves as they see fit.

Again.........who here has ever pressed others to pursue concealed/open carry?

Also... Theft from a motor vehicle is a very common crime. Handguns left inside parked vehicles are much more likely to be stolen than those kept on their owners' persons.

And you thought we needed to be informed of this because..................

[shadowrider]

43. I think you mis-read the post.

They were responding to post #1 asking why anyone would need to carry a gun.

[jazzhound]

44. So right you are!

Been studying for too long today. Apologies to the poster of the remarks.

[HALO141]

45. (deleted due to diminished relevene)

[jazzhound]

46. Again, my apologies HALO

Somewhat bleary-eyed and brain-fried here.............

[spin]

3. "its full clip bulging like the weightlifter’s arms..."

The magazine fits inside the Glock, how did the reporter imagine that it was bulging with ammo? Obviously a combination of hyperbole and fantasy.

He could have journeyed to Florida and wondered around a grocery store looking for a story about people carrying guns and left sadly disappointed. He might have passed right by several people who were carrying a firearm and never realized it as concealed carry is legal in Florida with a permit.

For the gun illiterate this is a clip for a .45 acp revolver.



This is a magazine for a .45 acp pistol.

[Mother Smuckers]

19. If the "clip" (magazine) in my gun was bulging, I sure wouldn't shoot it!

:D

True story: many years ago I was plinking with a box of .38 spl wadcutter reloads a friend had given me that were old and not very well quality controlled. Put them in my S&W .357 which I seem to recall was called a "Highway Patrol" model...(?) Anyway I somehow failed to notice the last round in the cylinder did not exit the barrel! I was just shooting into a riverbank at some trash...cans and such mostly junk...it was a completely safe place to shoot. Anyway, I refilled the cylinder with .357 ammo and aimed - that first shot was one I'll never forget...it blew out the stuck bullet and followed it out with the magnum parabellum. It put a bulge in the barrel pretty close to .45 caliber halfway from the chamber to the muzzle. Yes, I was very very lucky it didn't split the barrel and seriously injure me but it held thanks to the good and strong construction of that old revolver it held. I traded it to a gunsmith for something else, I forget what at this late date.

[spin]

30. S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman

"blued, but not polished"

Hell of a good revolver.

[Mother Smuckers]

31. Exactly! I couldn't recall the model number...thanks. After I posted, I recalled the trade

I got a K-38 in an even exchange and soon afterward I bought a used Lyman reloading press from the same guy for a bargain...I used it for years, finally swapped it for something else...I seem to recall a 9mm Mauser broomstick.

[spin]

34. The K-38 Combat Masterpiece was another great firearm ...

I've shot several at the range and found them to be extremely accurate.

[east texas lib]

36. Not to defend dipshit's reporting, but Glock mags have thin sidewalls...

That flex outward slightly when loaded so a full mag cannot be accidentally ejected from the mag well. I don't carry a Glock though, being a 1911 kinda guy.

[Euromutt]

35. I *know* I've read this story before

It's got to be at least a weeks back, and Google's not turning up anything on DU, but I know I've read the story, right down to Mr. Clark's biceps and his wife's pink revolver grips. That sad, there's a lot of stuff further down that isn't familiar.

There are some pretty stupid mistakes in the article, though.

Just as Starbucks officially welcomes the well armed, in a move that’s dragged the java giant into a civil war between first amendment rights defenders and gun control activists.

Emphasis mine. 'Nuff said.

But Dennis Henigan, a vice president of law and policy for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, contends that even in the days of the Wild West, places like Dodge City had gun controls.

His group - founded by Ronald Reagan’s press secretary, who was wounded during an assassination attempt in 1981 - has become the most vocal opponent to open carry.

Wrong; the Brady Campaign was originally founded in 1974 as the National Council to Control Handguns by Dr. Mark Borinsky. The NCCH was renamed Handgun Control Inc. in 1980; Sarah Brady, James' wife, joined HCI in 1985, became chair in 1989, and HCI was again renamed, this time to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, in 2001.

And this isn't the journalist's mistake, but yes, Dodge City had "gun control," in that local law enforcement required visitors to check their guns before entering a certain part of town; that certain part of town being on the south side of the railroad tracks, which, not coincidentally, was the part where all the saloons, dance halls and brothels were. Also not coincidentally, all of the homicides that occurred in Dodge City during its heyday as a cattle railhead in the 1870s took place on "the wrong side of the tracks," not on the north side, where there was no "gun control." There was no gun control on the north side because there wasn't any need for it.

And we're talking about the latter half of the 19th century here, where there was no way for law enforcement to rapidly verify an individual's identity and check his criminal record or whether he had any outstanding arrest warrants, no ATF, no Federal Firearms Licenses, no form 4473, no NICS background checks; no way, in short, to tell whether a given person has a prior history of criminal behavior or other reasons not to be trusted with a firearm.

<Says Henigan> “A lot are law abiding citizens, until they pull the trigger.”

The fault on the journalist's part here is failing to ask "how much is 'a lot'?" The criminological evidence indicates that 70-80% of homicides are committed by individuals with prior felony convictions, so they weren't "law-abiding citizens, until they pull<ed> the trigger." The overwhelming majority of homicides committed by persons without prior criminal records (particularly in intimate partner killings and mass shootings) prove to be deliberate and premeditated, and premeditation by definition means that the shooter had decided to cease to be law-abiding well before he pulled the trigger. The notion that any significant amount of murders occur at the hands of people with no prior history of violence who were seized with a momentary impulse, and if only they hadn't had a gun available everything would have been fine, is a fabrication; it's a myth we're all too happy to buy into because we all want to believe that "that sort of thing doesn't happen in our neighborhood," and therefore some external factor, like the presence of a firearm, must be to blame.

[jazzhound]

37. The entrenchment of this myth is really quite amazing.

The notion that any significant amount of murders occur at the hands of people with no prior history of violence who were seized with a momentary impulse, and if only they hadn't had a gun available everything would have been fine, is a fabrication; it's a myth we're all too happy to buy into because we all want to believe that "that sort of thing doesn't happen in our neighborhood," and therefore some external factor, like the presence of a firearm, must be to blame.

I was once arguing the case for gun rights on another progressive discussion board, and despite the fact that I posted the crime stats refuting the claim, the pro-"control" members were disputing the facts using the two-year-old approach. (the fingers in the ears while screaming LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!!) It's really quite unbelievable.

[PavePusher]

39. Yes, I remember seeing it earlier as well.

I think it was in a British publication or television site, but I don't care enough to look for it.