Police: Dealer shot customer for not paying

[struggle4progress]

... A Daytona Beach man selling marijuana out of his home shot and killed an ex-con customer after he complained about his purchase and left without paying ... Rivera called 9-1-1 to report the incident and agreed to a police interview, according to the report. He admitted to all the details of the drug deal and shooting, police said. Chitwood said Rivera had a permit for his gun. Both men had arrest records in Volusia County ... http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/local/east-volusia/2010/12/12/police-dealer-shot-customer-for-not-paying.html

[jdlh8894]

1. Point being? n/t

[struggle4progress]

3. Interesting story: permittee dealer follows ex-con client outside after client refuses to pay

for drugs and shoots client; police file handgun-used-in-commission-of-felony charges but do not file homocide charges, citing castle doctrine

I dunno. Maybe you're right, and it's just another "lawful permit holder uses gun in self-defense while committing a felony" story

[rocktivity]

6. How does castle doctine apply?

...Castle doctrine...does not apply to a person who "is engaged in unlawful activity or is using the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle to further an unlawful activity," according to state statute.

Police said Rivera agreed to sell 3 ounces of marijuana to Lee for $900...Lee, who had no cash on him, initially took 2 ounces and left behind his .380 semi-automatic handgun as collateral...(He) returned to Rivera's house about a half-hour later...took the remaining ounce of marijuana, grabbed his gun, shoved it into his waistband and walked to his car...

Rivera followed...and the men argued...Rivera fired his Glock at Lee's car...the bullet shattered a rear passenger window and struck Lee, who managed to drive four blocks...before crashing into a power pole.

The bullet would have to had traveled diagonally to hit Lee via a rear passenger window. So he must have driven away before Rivera pulled the trigger--which means that Lee was NOT presenting ANY kind of threat.

I think a homicide charge will be added once it's confirmed that the cause of death was the gunshot.

:headbang:
rocktivity

[struggle4progress]

8. ... Police Chief Mike Chitwood said ... the shooter .. may not face criminal charges because he had

tha gun permit and perhaps .. a legal right to defend himself. "This one remains to be seen," Chitwood said of a possible arrest ...
Police: Drug deal turns deadly
By ANDREW GANT, STAFF WRITER send an email to [e-mail]
December 11, 2010 12:05 AM
http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/local/east-volusia/2010/12/11/police-drug-deal-turns-deadly.html

[jdlh8894]

9. 3oz. for $900? ???? FOOL!!!n/t

[jdlh8894]

7. Why I am right ?-Just said "point being"

[slackmaster]

26. His permit is automatically invalidated by his unlawful possession of a controlled substance

He's not a legitimate "permittee", and his mere possession of a firearm was unawful.

I wouldn't be surprised if he lied on the paperwork when he bought the gun.

[Euromutt]

32. I'm not sure that's actually true

As I pointed out elsewhere, federal law prohibits you from possessing a firearm if you are "an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana" and other controlled substances but it doesn't say anything about dealing in the stuff. At least, not directly. If Rivera had ever been caught, prosecuted and convicted of dealing, he'd be legally prohibited from possessing a firearm, but he hadn't been (up till now).

It's that darn Fifth Amendment, with its protections against being deprived of "life, liberty or property, without due process of law" and being forced to incriminate yourself (e.g. by being asked on a form "have you committed a felony offense without being detected by law enforcement?").

[Hoopla Phil]

2. OMG, criminals doing criminal things. ALL LAWFUL PERSONS NOW TURN IN YOUR GUNZ.

[struggle4progress]

4. or -- yet another lawful permit holder committing yet another felony

[spin]

5. Yep. I will bet that they will revoke his Florida Concealed Carry Permit ...

that will make a grand total of 169 concealed carry permits revoked because of a crime committed with a firearm after the license was issued. in 23 years.

Reference: Concealed Weapon / Firearm Summary Report
October 1, 1987 - November 30, 2010
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

[AtheistCrusader]

10. He committed a crime when he lied while applying for his permit.

Impossible to be a drug dealer, and get that permit without committing perjury.

[jdlh8894]

11. Proof? Please!

You know this how? Just curious?

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Just like the 4477, you can't be a user or seller of narcotics.

It's a felony all by itself.

[jdlh8894]

13. Educate me please? What is 4477??

[X_Digger]

15. Actually, form 4473

It's the form you fill out when you purchase a firearm from a federally licensed dealer.

The same set of questions are part of state concealed licensing forms (at least in every state that I've bothered to check.)

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Sorry, been a while since I filled one out. Thanks for the correction.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

19. Correct, Florida also uses the 4473 questions in addition to specific licensing questions.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. ATF Form 4473, (5300.9) Part I

Section A: 11b, 11c, 11e, 16 ...

Clearly outlines the eligability and certification of the transferee

http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-4473.pdf

[safeinOhio]

16. No form needed in

private sale. No check to see if criminal background either.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

17. Are you stating that if one cannot pass a 4473, that it is legal/OK to just buy from a private sale?

Hint: Whether the seller knows about a buyer's eligability does not change the fact that a buyer is or is not eligable.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. Still a crime to go ahead and do so.

Just lacks the perjury charge.

Crime for the seller too, if it can be proven he/she had reason to suspect the buyer was ineligible.

[slackmaster]

27. Still unlawful to transfer a firearm to a person who is prohibited from possessing it

:hi:

[Euromutt]

22. That's not necessarily true

It's a violation of federal law to possess a firearm if you are "an unlawful user, or addicted to, marijuana <...>"
It is theoretically possible to deal drugs without taking them yourself, and the form 4473 doesn't ask whether you've engaged in criminal activity without having been caught or convicted, since that would run afoul of the constitutional right against self-incrimination.

[cleanhippie]

21. Is there a large number of lawful permit holders committing felonies?

The answer is no, they are actually much , much less likely to be involved in a crime than a non-permit holder.

[Euromutt]

23. Calling this guy a "lawful permit holder" is a stretch

Given that Rivera evidently dealt marijuana--and we're not talking reselling a small amount to a friend, but 90 grams to a person he barely knew at best--he wasn't what you'd call a law-abiding citizen. Yes, he was able to get a concealed carry permit, but that's simply a result of a combination of presumption of innocence and the right against self-incrimination; given that Rivera had no felony convictions, the state didn't have anything to hold against him.

You could just as readily hold up this incident as an example of the potential harm due to presumption of innocence and the right against self-incrimination as you could of the potential harm caused by "shall issue" laws for carry permits. And the same counter-argument applies, namely that the potential harm facilitated by these laws does not outweigh the potential harm facilitated by not having them.

[slackmaster]

28. It's utter bullshit

Not a stretch by any stretch.

[RSillsbee]

24. So, a criminal used a gun to commit an illegal act

This effects me how?

[JonLP24]

25. I think

this is an example of one way where current drug laws do not work. What is someone supposed to do if he/she gets ripped off whether by a dealer or a customer? Can't go to the police, can't file a lawsuit. Many do nothing, but there are people who resort to violence to settle this.

[Hoyt]

29. Goes to show just how flawed the permitting process is.

[Glassunion]

30. So what is your solution to the flaw?

[Euromutt]

31. Yes, damn that Fifth Amendment!

The "flaw," if you want to call it that, lies in the fact that this is--at least notionally--a liberal democracy under the rule of law, and the state (in the widest sense of the term) cannot deprive a citizen of his freedoms without due process. This situation is analogous to a state DMV renewing the driver's license of a guy who, as it turned out, habitually drives under the influence but has managed to avoid being convicted. Without a conviction, the state has no legitimate grounds to refuse him the license.

It is an unfortunate side effect of having safeguards in place to protect the innocent from wrongful prosecution and conviction, and other deprivations of life, liberty or property, that the guilty can and will exploit these from time to time, but in principle we consider that a price worth paying to prevent arbitrary behavior on the part of government in general, and the criminal justice system in particular.

[RSillsbee]

33. Am I the only one that appreciates the irony

Of an Imigrant Amercian having to explain the Constitution to a (presumably) native born American?

Listen well Hoyt, your civil liberties might mean more to you if you actually had to work to get them

[Euromutt]

34. Outside this board, you're not

One of my college professors (at The Evergreen State College) made a similar observation on more than one occasion (like how I was the only one in the class to know off the top of my head how many Representatives are in the House).

Not that I'm wholly convinced our friend Hoyt is actually an American citizen by birth (if at all), given the fact that he's spelled "armor" as "armour" (as in "armour-piercing") in one instance, and used the word "trousers" where an American would say "pants" in another. Not that there's anything wrong with either per se, it's just that, speaking as a naturalized immigrant, over the past eight years, I've adapted my vocabulary and idioms to the local vernacular so as to be intelligible. I can easily swing back to Home Counties with a small amount of immersion, but right now I speak (and write) American English with a 1980s BBC newsreader accent.

[PavePusher]

35. Heh, I have similar language issues after living in England for 7 1/2 years.

Calibre, torch, colour, grey, pants (instead of 'underwear'), tousers (instead of 'pants'), boot and hood and bonnet (in relations to cars) are all firmly part of my vocabulary.

[one-eyed fat man]

36. Similar experience.

There is an old saw that most American high school civics students couldn't pass the test to become a naturalized citizen.

I was 11 when my family emigrated to the US, so I speak American English with a tank company First Sergeant accent. Since I retired from the Army I have only been back to Germany once.

After an 18 year break, it was "Noch mal zur Wies'n!" and by the second "Zenzi bring ma no a Mass! the rust began to come off the Bayerisch. But even I noticed that my vocabulary is "stuck in the past" to the time I lived there and idioms, particularly, are not up to date.

I am curious if you find as much blending of English words into daily conversation when you visit "the old country?"

Best explanation I heard of the phenomenon was from a friend in the Bundeswehr who explained simply, "Unlike the French, we Germans are not afraid of a new word."

Your thoughts?