Congresswoman Giffords and other victims were shot with 9MM Glock!

[Harry Hope]

http://immigrationmexicanamerican.blogspot.com/2011/01/congresswoman-gifford-shot-with-9mmm.html

Democrat Rep. Gabrielle Giffords was shot with a 9MM glock.


Her opponent received contributions from the National Rifle
Association.
http://reporting.sunlightfoundation.com/independent-expenditures/candidate/jesse-kelly/national-rifle-assn

[ret5hd]

1. Well, at this point, I don't think the caliber and make of the weapon is very important.

[Cassandra]

21. It is, actually, and she's lucky.

A gun using friend told me this afternoon that because it was a glock, it was powerful enough to exit her brain. A 22 is preferred by professional assassins because the bullet doesn't exit but bounces around for maximum damage.

[ret5hd]

23. Do you actually think that a brand name designates caliber?

[Cassandra]

24. I told my friend that it was a glock...

he was at the greenmarket and hadn't seen or heard any news. What I said was his immediate response.

[ret5hd]

25. My question stands.

[benEzra]

27. 9mm is 9mm, regardless of brand.

9mm is a centerfire pistol round (more powerful than a rimfire like .22LR) but is middle-of-the-road as far as power goes. It is more powerful than a .38 Special, but less powerful than a .357, 40, or .45. A lot of police departments have shifted to the .40 instead for more power (9mm is .355) but 9mm is still probably the most popular civilian centerfire handgun caliber nationwide, because it is more economical to shoot than .40 or .45. It dates from 1902.

[TheWraith]

35. That's rather an urban legend.

Yes. .22 rounds are used sometimes for assassination work, but that's because they're relatively quiet and easy to silence--in fact, they're one of the few firearm rounds which can be made truly silent, as opposed to simply made quieter. ("Silencers" don't actually work the way Hollywood makes you think they do. They're more like mufflers: a "silenced" .45 caliber round is still loud enough to endanger your hearing if fired without ear protection.)

As far as bouncing around, one headshot with any type of weapon is usually enough to kill, and if you want to be certain you can use a second. Giffords got incredibly lucky.

But yes, we should be glad that this guy used a 9mm gun. If he'd used a more powerful .45 caliber weapon, like the Colt 1911, Giffords would almost certainly be dead.

[Name removed]

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[AtheistCrusader]

57. Sure, if you go out of your way

and buy specifically sub-sonic .223 ammo.

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

59. Also hollow point bullets makes a big difference in tissue damage.

That said, she was very lucky.

[TheWraith]

60. You need special cold-loaded sub-sonic .223 ammo to make it silent.

As for the .45, a lot depends on the suppressor. To fully suppress a .45 would require a particularly large and heavy unit which might not be ideal for covert, close-in work. Hence, why many assassinations have been carried out with small caliber arms.

As far as 9mm versus .45, you have to remember that for the extra .07 of an inch in diameter, you're gaining a third more area to the bullet wound, as well as giving it substantially more muzzle energy.

[AtheistCrusader]

39. goddamn, let's play 'count the untrue gun canards'.

[Cassandra]

52. The friend who told me that...

may know more about guns than you do but perhaps less about assassinations. Yes?

[AtheistCrusader]

56. I'm guessing 'no' to both questions.

Because seriously.

[GSLevel9]

2. wtf???? would a Smith & Wesson have been better? wtf?

[enough]

3. Can you explain the significance of this? (nt)

[hlthe2b]

4. exactly... why the exclamation point as to type of gun?

[justiceischeap]

5. I was wondering how 17 people were injured with a handgun

If all of them were shot, then there is significance in that. It means he could have shot them all with one clip and not reloaded, which makes the PoPo look really bad if he had time to reload.

[Edweird]

7. Reloading a semi auto handgun takes 3 seconds. How does that make the "popo" look bad?

[benEzra]

28. 3 seconds would be quite slow, actually. (n/t)

[spin]

34. With practice you can swap magazines far faster than 3 seconds. (n/t)

quick magazine change glock 19
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ANOABDVvYs

World's Fastest Reload
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8&NR=1

[DissedByBush]

55. 3 seconds? Try maybe half a second

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAFxgQmxbGI

Needs practice, of course.

[Edweird]

58. I'm thinking 'random crazy guy' not world class USPSA competitor.

I pulled '3 seconds' completely out of my ass - I went through the motions in my head and allowed for 'average' (checking the magazine a 2nd time, trouble with the slide release) and came up with the number. I realize that it's possible to do it much more quickly, but it's clear to me that he isn't one of those guys.

[RaleighNCDUer]

8. He had an extended clip, according to witnesses. Did not reload. nt

[rfranklin]

9. Magazines for 33 rounds are readily available...

http://glockstore.com/pgroup_descrip/336_Featured+Items/7275_Super+Hi-Capacity+Magazines/?return=%3f

[Sonoman]

11. The richochet factor.

They were either on a sidewalk or parking lot. Even fragmented HP will bounce around a lot if the shooter isn't centering the shots.

That was my first thought when someone asked how he could hit so many people.

Sonoman

[TorchTheWitch]

17. do you understand the meaning of "shotting fish in a barrell"?

Shoot into a crowd of people 17 times and you'd likely hit 17 people with your eyes shut.

[Katya Mullethov]

18. Could have been a brace of LeMats

[TheWraith]

36. There were no police there, no armed guards, and apparently no armed civilians.

Even if he had taken the extra couple seconds to reload, there was nobody there who had the capacity to stop him until he turned and tried to escape, at which point he was tackled.

[PavePusher]

45. As far as I can tell...

having been to only one of her functions, she usually doesn't have a visible police presence.

[one-eyed fat man]

46. according to one witness

Dr. Steven Rayle, the cops arrived 15 minutes after the shooting and the ambulance took even longer.

After shooting Gifford, the gunman opened fire indiscriminately for a few seconds, firing 20-30 rounds and hitting a number of people, including a kid no older than 10 years old. Rayle hid behind a concrete pole and pretended to be dead. When the gunman apparently ran out of ammunition he attempted to flee, but a member of Gifford’s staff tackled him. Rayle helped hold the gunman down while waiting for the sheriff to arrive, about 15-to-20 minutes later. The EMS came about 30 minutes later. Rayle said he was “stunned” by how long it took medical help to arrive.

http://mainstreetradical.com/2011/01/08/az-rep-giffords-at-least-4-others-shot-by-gunman/

[Edweird]

6. Those diabolical Austrians and their polymers!

[Cleita]

10. Better question. How did he get it or did someone

provide him with it?

[Harry Hope]

15. Your point is well taken

[CTyankee]

12. Oh, I think this is extraordinarily important!

He was able to do a LOT more damage with this weapon than he could with one without his extended "ability". Focus on that.

It's a significant point that should not be missed....

[benEzra]

30. What is the "significant point"? (n/t)

[CTyankee]

38. that he had a weapon with significant ammunition ability....

he could shoot more people in less time...right?

That accomplishes a lot, don't you agree?

[benEzra]

41. That doesn't have anything to do with it being a Glock, though.

A Glock 19 using the flush-fit factory magazines for concealability holds 16 rounds (15 + 1 in the chamber), the same as pretty much any similar-sized double-stack 9mm pistol by any manufacturer. Reports do say the guy had an aftermarket 30-round magazine (if that's accurate, the mag wasn't made by Glock, since G18 mags hold 33 and not 30), so yes, that saved a second, maybe two, somewhere compared to firing 30 rounds with two standard-capacity magazines.

Capacity is less relevant for offensive use than it is for defensive use, though, because an aggressor can plan ahead much more than a defender can. The Virginia Tech shooter used a 9mm with ordinary 15-round magazines and shot far more people, because he came in intending to reload and was carrying a dozen or more magazines. This guy apparently didn't bring reloads, or if he did, he didn't use them, it seems.

[CTyankee]

43. Did the job, didn't it?

[benEzra]

47. My point is just that this was an ordinary civilian pistol, not some out-of-the-mainstream racegun.

Making a big deal about Glock vs. Springfield or S&W is like making a big deal out of the fact that a bank robber used a "V6 Ford Taurus!!!" as a getaway car. I'm still not seeing how "Glock!!" is relevant. Would you be less concerned if the bastard had used a Smith & Wesson with a 30-round magazine, or a Glock with two 15's, or an antique Browning?

I'm not speaking totally out of thin air here; I shoot competitively in local USPSA matches, and the most common gun I see in matches is the Glock, followed by the Springfield XD and various 1911-style pistols. I shoot a S&W Ladysmith myself in Limited-10 class currently, but will probably transition to a Springfield or a Glock at some point to shoot in Production class.

Here's what a competent reload looks like, FWIW. The new magazine is in the gun before the empty hits the ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMNa6Gu9KP4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJXNPo5krvw

For reference, a fast reload by a top-notch competitive shooter using a racegun with a flared magwell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxzrahUUTi8&feature=related

[CTyankee]

48. Hey, ok, ok...I know it's really important to have a fast reload by a top notch

competitive shooter using a racegun with a flared magwell...er, well, I mean...I know whatcha mean...ok, just be calm, ok? Everything's fine...

[benEzra]

50. Sorry, don't mean to overwhelm...

just trying to get across why the original post comes across as so strange. It's like looking at a Taurus V6 or a 4-cylinder Civic and thinking it's a race car; obviously anyone who thinks such has never seen a race car, or is unfamiliar with average cars.

[CTyankee]

51. yeah, well, heh, heh. have another drink....we're cool...

[AtheistCrusader]

40. The 'extended ability' can be made by hand for a few cents in most people's garages.

I pistol mag is the epitome of 'simple' to make. Every middle school metal shop in the country is capable of mass producing them.

[Pancho Sanza]

13. The sidearm of choice of (or assignment to) most police officers.

I rather doubt this guy was issued one.

[Name removed]

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[The Midway Rebel]

16. I wouldn't flatter myself so if I were you Harry

Especially so soon into a thread. It tips your hand.

[TorchTheWitch]

19. because it's about as significant as what shoes he was wearing n/t

[benEzra]

31. No, just inane attempts to use a tragedy as an excuse to push a pet prohibition.

The fact that it is a Glock 9mm instead of a Sig-Sauer 9mm, Smith & Wesson 9mm, Ruger 9mm, FN-Herstal 9mm, Taurus 9mm, Springfield Armory 9mm, CZ 9mm, Steyr 9mm, Bersa 9mm, etc. etc. is trivia. The fact that it was a 9mm was somewhat relevant (it's probably good that it was a 9mm and not something more powerful), but a double-stack 9mm is a double-stack 9mm.

[benEzra]

20. And his use of a Glock instead of a Ruger or a S&W is significant because...why?

Dammit, Ms. Giffords was a gun owner herself, and opposed D.C.'s faux handgun ban, though I don't know if she owned handguns.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40979458/ns/politics/

But can we PLEASE lay off of the "hey, let's use this as an excuse to ban more gunz" schtick? Please? I mean, seriously, I wonder if all the victims are even out of surgery yet, and the "gun owners are of the debbil" posts are already cropping up.

[jazzhound]

22. I love the cheesy manner in which you implicate the NRA

in the attack:

Her opponent received contributions from the National Rifle Association.

When piffle is all you've got, sling piffle I suppose.

[Name removed]

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[Katya Mullethov]

32. Are you denouncing my sexuality ?

As a devout hoplophiliac and gun fetishist I find myself greatly offended by your mean spirited tone . We must all practice tolerance and celebrate our manifold diversity if we ever hope to achieve our dream of Utopia .

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Please , can't we all just get along ?

[benEzra]

29. FWIW, that's a Glock 17 on the top right, not a G19. They're similar, but the G19 is smaller.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glock_pistol

You do realize this pic isn't of the murderer's guns, yes? It's just some random pic of a different model Glock from the Internet, along with an FN FiveSeven (centerfire .22, on the left) that doesn't have anything to do with this thread?

[jazzhound]

33. Congresswoman Giffords and other victims were shot with 9MM Glock!

Now that I think more about it, it was excitable persons like yourself who shrieked that Glocks could pass through airport security without detection.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

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[AtheistCrusader]

42. Why did you post a FN 5.7, and the wrong glock, anyway?

Child hit by a bus!

*posts grainy picture of mini-van*

[PavePusher]

44. So. What. What is your point? n/t

[Name removed]

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