Locked and loaded: Concealed carry grows as critics’ fears of ‘bloodbath’ proven wrong

[The Straight Story]

Locked and loaded: Concealed carry grows as critics’ fears of ‘bloodbath’ proven wrong

LORAIN — Nearly 200,000 Ohioans have been issued a license to carry a concealed handgun since the state’s concealed carry law took effect in April 2004.

Here in Lorain County, since 2004, a total of 5,416 concealed carry licenses have been issued. In 2010 alone, the Lorain County Sheriff’s Office issued 852 new licenses, according to data provided by the Attorney General’s Office and Sgt. Diana Nicholl. In 2009, 798 licenses were issued. The number of new applicants has grown annually since 2006.

....

When the law first went into effect, opponents argued there would be more crime and weapons assaults. That has largely proven to not be the case, Lorain County Sheriff Phil Stammitti said.

“We haven’t had any big problems since the law took effect in 2004,” Stammitti said.

Sigsworth said Erie County hasn’t had any major problems either.

“We have had very few issues with the folks issued licenses through our agency,” Sigsworth said. “And the vast majority appear to be law abiding ...”

http://www.morningjournal.com/articles/2011/02/06/news/doc4d4e19b7cc90d005529107.txt

[donco]

1. here is the

third rec for this thread .

[X_Digger]

2. No blood in the streets?!? *gasp*

Color me unsurprised.

I guess Ohio CCW folks are much like Texas ones-

[TheWraith]

3. Not at all surprising.

Realistically, there's no evidence to place a causal link between guns and violence, despite the assertions of some.

[bvar22]

4. There simply has not been a precipitating crisis yet.

It WILL happen.
Only a matter of time before a (or some) CCP holder opens fire on undercover police,
or misidentifies the Bad Guys in the chaos of an event.
The more weapons on the street, the more likely this becomes.
...only a matter of time.
Even in Dodge City, you had to turn in your guns at the city limits.


...and the above is from a gun owner and shooting enthusiast.

[rl6214]

5. So it hasn't happened since 2004

BUT it's only a matter of time.

And it's only a matter of time until the Minnesota vikings will win a Superbowl but they've lost 4, But it's only a matter of time.

[bvar22]

10. Many people said the same thing about The Saints,

until last year.

I know.
I was a long suffering Saints fan.
I attended their very first game in Tulane Stadium in 1967.


As you acknowledge in your response above,
"It IS only a matter of time",
which is really a poor argument.

[beevul]

11. LOL.

The saints aren't the vikings lol.

That comes from a displaced native Minnesotan.

[DonP]

13. More along the lines of the Cubs, 100+ years and waiting N/T

[AtheistCrusader]

6. legal 29 years in Washington State.

[friendly_iconoclast]

7. Nothing will be 'precipitated'. The toothpaste isn't going back in the tube.

Your much discussed 'crisis' has been foretold for years, often right here in the Gungeon


CCP has been expanding for a good twenty years, and we've been told all about the "precipitating crisis" that's sure

to happen Real Soon Now. There are several millions of CCP holders,a subset of the tens of millions of gun owners who are

simpatico with them.


They are very politically active and no longer vulnerable to the top-down variety of moral panic mongering that produced

the 1994 "Assault Weapons Ban".

[spin]

8. Some info for you on Dodge City ...

Check Your Gun Mister
Are We Safer than the Citizens of Dodge City?
By Jim Higginbotham

***snip***

Now one might argue that the records of the times were not as detailed or well organized as those compiled by the FBI today but there are indeed records of what happened in most of the towns who survived. Unlike the East, where many court houses were burned during the Civil War, many of the post war western town records survived just fine. Tombstone has an abundance of interesting court cases to peruse as does Dodge City, Wichita and Hays City. Almost every gunfight or bar fight that resulted in serious injuries ended in an arrest and is recorded since there were charges filed and a hearing after most of them. If you are willing to dig deep enough you can find a pretty good idea of just how violent the "Wild West" really was – not for a moment suggesting that isolated incidents of extreme violence may not have been perpetrated in the sparse expanses of wilderness or desert and went unreported.

The first shocking thing you learn when you start "mining’ for such information is that it was much safer to live in a place like Dodge City than in a place like New York City or Chicago – my how things change, right? If you look real hard at the record of Dodge City, Kansas from the time the cattle herds started shipping from there until the last year as a "cow town" – a span of about 15 years you can come up with approximately 15 people who died by violence. Yep that’s fifteen, not 150, in a period of 15 years. An average of 1 per year. However in the worst year, five people died so there were several years in that 15 in which no one was killed in Dodge City. A couple of those are famous incidents which get told and retold. One is the cowboy who was killed by the officers Earp and Masterson. One was Bat’s brother Ed who was mortally wounded by one of two cowboys named Walker and Wagner, who were in turn shot by Bat Masterson (both survived the shooting). Another, not so well known homicide was the accidental shooting of Dora Hand by a drunk on the street when the bullet went through several walls and hit her in the head as she slept.

Now everyone knows of the famous sign which orders all the visitors to Dodge City to check their guns. What you might not be aware of is that there were, in effect, actually two Dodge Cities adjacent to one another, split by a spur line of the railroad called the "deadline". The sign was there for mostly for the benefit of those who visited the saloons and brothels south of the deadline. While It was the denizens on the "other side of the tracks" who were required by law to disarm when they ventured into town. So, in this little microcosm of western society we have an excellent comparison of just how effective restrictive gun laws actually are. Now of the 15 people who perished by violence in Dodge City’s most violent years, just how many do you think fell victim North of the Deadline. If you guessed 0 you would be right! Now isn’t that amazing. You take a town and put all of the miscreants, rebel rousers, and assorted ne’er-do-wells in one area, forbid the carrying of weapons by those who frequent a certain part of town, and ALL of the homicide occurs there. "Gun Control" works just as well today as it did then. Dodge City is not the exception. Tombstone, where the Earps moved, enjoyed the same proscription on going armed, though it was truly a violent place, the violence was contained in the area near the controlled section of town. There are numerous other examples.emphasis added
http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/rkba/check_gun.htm

[shadowrider]

9. Tombstone - That would be the area near the "Bird Cage" n/t

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pipoman]

18. Assuming you are correct

what would such an occurrence prove? That ccw is bad policy? There are many, many instances of police shooting the wrong people but we still have police and no outcry to change that. Certainly you would have to agree, in light of millions of ccps issued throughout the US that cc policy isn't suddenly going to result in chaos, or sudden multitudes of incidents. Legislating based on isolated scenarios or belief in the probability of some isolated incident occurring is not good policy, IMO.

[Katya Mullethov]

23. You would think the Katherine Johnston shooting would have enough

THat was pretty damned appalling wanst it ? Then there was the Prince George Poodle Shooters Fiasco , and they just bough their way out that one about a week ago for an undisclosed amount .

It is very apparent that there is the perception that crises and events CAN be used in an attempt to screw "us" out of our rights . But there is no end to what "they" can do , and without any apparent ill effect .

[PavePusher]

24. Ummm, so? What's your point? n/t

[krispos42]

26. So, it happens once in 7+ years.

Compared to how often criminals kill the wrong person, or hit innocent bystanders.

And let's remember that defensive gun uses are occurring daily.

[east texas lib]

12. The sky has indeed fallen...

:o

[1620rock]

14. Uh huh...don't retreat, reload...where have I heard that before?

[Katya Mullethov]

15. The day is ours !

Turn the cannons on them !

[RSillsbee]

16. Up Men! And to your posts !!

And let no man forget this day that he is from Old Virginia


A few hours later

Gen Lee: General Pickett you must look to your division

Gen Pickett: I have no division sir.

[russ1943]

19. No big problems..........A few insignificant news articles...Just Ohio

On July 4, 2007, firefighter Terrance Hough Jr. used a 40 caliber pistol
to shoot and kill neighbor Jacob Feichtner as well as Bruce Anderson and Katherine
Rosby as a result of a dispute over fireworks the three were setting off. Hough also shot
and injured Donny Walsh and Katherine Nicholas. Police seized 12 firearms from
Hough’s home after his arrest. Hough’s fellow firefighters described him as a “ticking
time bomb that finally exploded,” and one noted, “I hope I’m off the day Hough snaps.”
Hough, who had received his concealed handgun permit in 2004, was convicted of three
counts of aggravated murder and two counts of attempted murder and was sentenced to
life in prison with no parole.
On August 6, 2007, Geraldine Beasley shot Donald Francis, who was
believed by police to be homeless. Beasley, who was panhandling on the same block as
Francis, was angry because he was invading her “turf.” Beasley had a permit to carry a
concealed weapon despite paying a fine for unlawfully transporting a firearm in 2003. In
February 2008 Beasley pled guilty to voluntary manslaughter and was sentenced to nine
years in prison.
On April 1, 2008, Marc Kidby died of self-inflicted gunshot wounds to
his chest and head from a 38 caliber handgun—his third attempt at suicide. His
concealed handgun permit was still active despite being the subject of a protection order
obtained by his wife. The local sheriff’s office had failed to suspend his concealed carry
permit as required by law.
On July 13, 2008, Ashford Thompson shot a police officer four times in
the head after he was pulled over for playing loud music. Thompson used a Kel-Tec P11
“pocket pistol” in the shooting. Thompson, who had a concealed handgun permit issued
by Cuyahoga County and had received a certificate for completing a concealed-carry
class, pled guilty to aggravated murder.
On October 3, 2008, police discovered the bodies of Anthony Rodecker
and his ex-girlfriend Brenda Keeler. Both had been shot and a gun was found nearby in
what police suspected was a murder-suicide. Rodecker had been banned from the café
where Keeler bartended. Her relatives had urged her not to give in to his requests to see
her when he threatened to kill himself if she refused. Rodecker had a concealed handgun
permit that he obtained in Union County, Ohio.
On April 7, 2009, 66-year-old Emmitt Weaver shot and killed his wife
Betty, also 66, with a small caliber handgun and then turned the gun on himself.
Deputies found both bodies in the living room of their home. Betty Weaver was lying
face down with two gunshot wounds, and Emmitt Weaver was found in his recliner with
a self-inflicted gunshot wound. The couple had reportedly been arguing, and Emmitt
Weaver suffered from an unspecified medical condition. Emmitt Weaver was a hunter,
kept several rifles in his home, and had a concealed handgun permit.
On July 18, 2009, five-year-old Zacharia Nesbitt unintentionally shot
himself with his father’s 9mm Glock pistol which had been stored in a closet, loaded with
a round in the chamber. Zacharia died after the gun discharged and fired a bullet into his
right lung. David Nesbitt had a concealed handgun permit for the gun. He was charged
with negligent homicide.
Jerri L. Vernon, 22, died on February 20, 2010, after being
unintentionally shot in the stomach by concealed handgun permit holder Matthew R.
Culbertson, 26. The two had been drinking with friends during the day at a residence in
New Marshfield. Culbertson went outside to load his 40 caliber handgun (which he had
purchased less than a month earlier), fired a few rounds, and then came back into the
house. When Vernon asked whether the handgun was empty, Culbertson replied, “Let’s
see.” Culbertson pointed the gun at Vernon, pulled the trigger, and shot her. Witnesses
said the two had not argued prior to the shooting. Sheriff Patrick Kelly stated, “I believe
it was just carelessness with a firearm and alcohol. They do not mix.” Culbertson, who
had received his concealed handgun permit the prior September, was charged with
involuntary manslaughter, a third degree felony.
On March 4, 2010, 26-year-old Kelli Walton was fatally
shot—allegedly by her on-again, off-again boyfriend, 28-year-old Shamon
McDavis—while she held their three-week-old daughter in her arms. The baby, Kloe,
was in critical condition after a bullet grazed her head, resulting in a skull fracture.
Walton’s three other children—ages nine, six, and three—were home at the time of the
shooting but did not witness it. The shooting occurred during an argument between
Walton and McDavis over money and other things she wanted for her children. Walton’s
mother alerted 911 after one of her granddaughters woke her up and told her she had
heard two gunshots. Several hysterical people, some sounding like children, wailed in
the background as Walton’s mother called 911. “I think my daughter is dead....Oh no,
please Lord. Please, Jesus. Come and get my baby,” Walton told the dispatcher. One
neighbor stated after the shooting, “It is spooky to know somebody would kill a mother
with a baby in her hands.” McDavis had a concealed handgun permit, but “Why he’s
carrying a gun, I don’t know,” said Homicide Sgt. Bob Liston. McDavis was charged
with murder in the death of Walton and felonious assault in the child’s injury.

On April 9, 2010, Matthew Warmus allegedly shot and killed parking
lot attendant David Williams, 27, after an argument over a parking space. Both men had
concealed handgun permits. Warmus, in downtown Cleveland to attend a Cavaliers NBA
basketball game, reportedly argued with Williams over a parking space in the lot
Williams oversaw. Police say the fight eventually turned physical. Witnesses told police
that Williams tried to give Warmus his money back, but that Warmus walked back to his
car, retrieved his gun from the vehicle, and then shot Williams three times: twice in the
stomach and then a third shot at close range to the back of the head. While Warmus’
attorney argued self-defense for his client, claiming that Williams had pulled his handgun
first, no witnesses saw Williams pull his gun. Warmus was charged with aggravated
murder.
On September 2, 2010, concealed handgun permit holder Randy
Shrodes used a shotgun to kill his wife Amy, before using the gun to take his own life.
According to court records, Shrodes had two pending criminal cases against him. The
court date of one—failure to control a vehicle and operating a vehicle under the
influence—was scheduled for the day of the murder-suicide.

http://www.vpc.org/fact_sht/ccwtotalkilled.pdf

[X_Digger]

20. Let's see.. 6.5M licensees.. and the VPC has to include suicides (Marc Kidby)..

.. crimes committed in the home where a permit was not needed (Michael Leopold Phillips, among many others), crimes committed without guns (Tony Villegas), people without a concealed carry license (Richard Vithya Tauch), people who were acquitted (Aubrey Louis Berry)..

Out of 6.5M permit holders, how many could the VPC find? Damned sight better rate than the general public.

[friendly_iconoclast]

21. You went and ruined it for him with your classic logic and inconvenient truth.

Funny how reality tends to muddy the crystal clarity of faith based arguments...

[Euromutt]

25. Don't worry, it won't last

Anti-RKBA arguments are like rubber ducks (to borrow James Randi's phrase): no matter how often you send them to the bottom, they just keep on resurfacing.

How often have we seen the same people, after having had their arguments refuted in one thread, trot out the exact same discredited arguments in another?

[Kennah]

22. Just since 1987

10 Right To Carry States at the start of 1987.

40 Right To Carry States in 2011.

Streets still remarkably free of blood.

Current WA law dates back to 1961. "Vermont Carry" in Vermont dates back to the 1903 Rosenthal decision. I believe Indiana's concealed carry law dates back to the 1870s.