Regarding the recent vicious attack at McDonald's

[guardian]

What is your opinion? Do you think the law should allow for the use of deadly force in this case to protect the victim given there were two attackers and a group of onlookers that were tacitly friendly to the attackers?


One of many links to story and video of attack: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/22/969470/-Attack-on-Transwoman-at-McDonalds,-While-Employees-Film?detail=hide

[RSillsbee]

1. Link? NT

[guardian]

2. Here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x943884

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-594896?ref=feeds%2Fnewsiest

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-04-22/news/bs-md-ci-viral-video-mcdonalds-20110422_1_transgender-woman-rosedale-restaurant-video-spread

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

3. The law does allow you to defend yourself if assaulted in that manner...

there's no opinion involved.

But looking at the video of how it happened... it happened so quickly, and with so may people around that responding with a gun would have been tragically stupid and ineffective.

[guardian]

6. So saving that poor person from permanent brain damage

would be "tragically stupid and ineffective"?

[lawodevolution]

9. this is how they think. They also would rather you not shoot an HIV infected rapist who's about to

attack your daughter. Just let him do it. It's for the greater good. You don't need guns.

[oneshooter]

18. Remember the " use your natural fighting ability" meme. n/t

[RSillsbee]

10. What would you have done?

At about a minute into the video someone says something about getting a gun and the attackers scream "get your god damned gun bitch." do you really think the sight of your's would have stopped them?

IMO in a situation like that you either shoot them both or stay completely out of it. In Colorado shooting would have probably been justified but this happen in Maryland where the proletariat isn't allowed to defend themselves effectively.

[S_B_Jackson]

12. Pepper spray.

I have a CHL, but wouldn't have felt that this rose the the level at which I would have determined that use of lethal force was appropriate. A healthy dose of pepper spray would have done everything required to have calmed the situation down. But of course, using it on these two darlings would have, I'm sure, resulted in an outpouring of rage in defense of them.

[RSillsbee]

13. Not sure pepper spray is a wonderful idea indoors

but it beats the hell out of shooting. I damn sure would have kept spraying until they were both incapacitated.

Which brings up the question who's watching your back while you're playing Underdog?

[S_B_Jackson]

14. With the exception of the elderly lady who tried, bless her heart, to assist

I can't say that I give a darn whether some of the byblow might inconvenienced any of the employees. Hell, they only made the call for police AFTER the woman was kicked in the head and began to have convulstions.

Who's watching my back? In most instances, it would be my wife. In MD, she'd probably have a large can of wasp/hornet spray. In more reasonable states which do not restrain citizens from carrying the most effective means of defense, she'd have a Sig P228 loaded with 147 grain Ranger T.

[Euromutt]

22. "Do you really think the sight of yours would have stopped them? "

I don't see why not. The assailants' challenge might be interpreted as having been made in the knowledge that, given Maryland's restrictive gun laws, the chances of anyone who would be inclined to intervene on the victim's behalf having a firearm to hand were exceedingly slim.

[rrneck]

4. Is this it?

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-04-22/news/bs-md-ci-viral-video-mcdonalds-20110422_1_transgender-woman-rosedale-restaurant-video-spread

A video of a vicious beating at a Baltimore County McDonald's restaurant went viral Friday, garnering hundreds of thousands of views on websites and prompting the fast-food giant to issue a statement condemning the incident.

The video shows two women — one of them a 14-year-old girl — repeatedly kicking and punching the 22-year-old victim in the head, as an employee of the Rosedale restaurant and a patron try to intervene. Others can be heard laughing, and men are seen standing idly by.

Toward the end of the video, one of the suspects lands a punishing blow to the victim's head, and she appears to have a seizure. A man's voice tells the women to run because police are coming.

[guardian]

5. yes n/t

[Trajan]

7. I say ... KILL'M !

What fun this is !

[spin]

16. Isn't it strange that the people with carry permits who post here ...

haven't said that?

[cleanhippie]

27. You need help.

[rrneck]

8. Looks liked they kept circling the resturant

to continue the beat down after being shooed away. I don't know what the brandishing laws are there, but there might have been a chance to get between the victim and the assailants long enough to get her to a secure area. The sight of a gun probably would have been enough to stop them. But that's risky as hell. Then again, anytime mobthink takes over anything you do will be risky. You pull that gun and point at one of those girls and then have to shoot her you will be in a world of shit.

[RamboLiberal]

20. I watched the video and the best opportunity if someone had

wanted to pull their gun to defend the victim would've been at the point by the bathrooms.

This would have been a damn tough situation to pull a gun though. The beaters might just have the audicity to challenge a person with a gun to shoot them.

Man I hand the courage award to the old lady with the purse who tried to protect the victim.

[RSillsbee]

23. If I pulled a gun at all

it would be because I had every intention of shooting unless the criminal stands down between the time it comes out and the time I'm on target.

The beaters might just have the audicity to challenge a person with a gun to shoot them.



A couple of the articles I've read about the story imply that the "woman" who got the beatdown was a guy in drag who attempted to use the women's bathroom at Mickey D's which is what lead to the beat down

[RamboLiberal]

26. That was the dumbass guy who shot the video's claim

The victim was a transgender woman. What bathroom was she supposed to use? And I wouldn't beat down a man using the ladies room. I'd just go find the management.

Latest I read tonight was the attackers may have been looking for a fight. One accused the victim of looking at her man.

[one-eyed fat man]

29. That brings up an interesting question

If "she" went into the women's bathroom and sat in a stall how would they know "she" was a pre-op transgender? Unless "she" went in there, whipped out her schlong and pissed in the sink, it's not like there are urinals to stand at.

[RSillsbee]

31. If you have a penis you use the men's bathroom NT

[one-eyed fat man]

33. Transgendered?

Unless he looked like an EEOC approved "Hooters" waitress, how would they know?

[RSillsbee]

36. Retraction

Apparently the attack was provoked because on of the attacker thought the victim was hitting on her boyfriend

[RamboLiberal]

35. Frankly as a woman I could care less if a transgender person

had one if in a stall.

[Smokewagon]

11. Some states

Allow for defense of a third person. And a beatdown like that would qualify for use of deadly force. Last resort of course.

[spin]

17. Welcome to DU. (n/t)

[oneshooter]

19. Texas allowes the defence of another. n/t

[GKirk]

15. It certainly seems that

the employees could have done a better job of protecting the victim. Get her into an office or at least behind the counter.

[PavePusher]

21. Most businesses corporate policy is "Don't get involved".

Otherwise, they find insurance to be difficult.

[Atypical Liberal]

24. I think they are going to find this expensive, too.

This lady is going to sue their pants off.

It wouldn't surprise me if there were some aiding and abetting charges.

[Atypical Liberal]

25. Victim speaks about here attack.

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/video.php?v=wshhfW29wSuLvJyN9c47

[benEzra]

28. Here in NC, coming to the aid of the person being beaten would be legally questionable.

Primarily because under NC law, if someone initiates a confrontation, that person cannot use potentially lethal force in self-defense unless they are attacked after backing down and trying to de-escalate. In this case, it is not clear at first glance whether the victim of the beating initiated the initial nonphysical confrontation, which would mean that the victim's claim of self-defense could be in question under NC law, depending on how it played out between the initial confrontation and the beating.

Under NC law, if the victim can't legally use potentially lethal force, then neither can anyone who comes to their aid. Meaning if you jump into a questionable situation, you could face criminal charges if you end up using force, whether nonlethal or lethal.

Methinks if I were in the restaurant at that time, I'd be calling 911 immediately, because LEO's are authorized to use force under a broader set of circumstances than non-LEO's are. It appears that plenty of people were just standing around watching, and an earlier 911 call might have been beneficial. There might have been other ways of breaking up the fight that would not have involved the use of force, but such armchair quarterbacking isn't really helpful without knowing exactly how it went down.

[gravity556]

30. That assault didn't rise to the "deadly force" point for me

The both were firmly in boot to the ass and pepper spray territory.

Also, keep in mind that while I and several million other Americans ARE trained in the defensive use of firearms and tend to stay current on the laws. That said, my firearms are carried for the defense of myself and my loved ones. Random Joe CCW carries for the same reason-protection of self. Not in case 2 poorly behaved young ladies decide to beat the crap out of what appeared to be an adult male.

[PavePusher]

34. Being kicked in the head doesn't rise to "deadly force"? Wow. n/t

[Remmah2]

32. They were obligated to wait for the police.

Like hell!
:sarcasm:

Nobody deserves to be treated like that.