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State senator (R-moran & CCW permit holder) who displayed handgun found guilty of disorderly conduct

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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:22 AM
Original message
State senator (R-moran & CCW permit holder) who displayed handgun found guilty of disorderly conduct
Edited on Tue May-10-11 08:23 AM by jpak
http://news.google.com/news/more?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&cf=all&ncl=dORyZtlLakGBikMGQ6X-rwQY1xROM

State Sen. Bob Mensch, a Montgomery County Republican, was found guilty Monday of disorderly conduct in district court for displaying a handgun to another motorist on Interstate 78 in Berks County.

Mensch, 65, of Pennsburg was found guilty by District Judge Andrea J. Book following a 2 1/2 hour long hearing in Bernville.

The incident occurred March 9 around mile marker 15 in Bethel Township, according to state police, who arrested Mensch after responding to a 9-1-1 call from the victim.

During the hearing Mensch admitted possessing two guns in his vehicle but denied displaying them to the motorist. He said he has permits for both weapons.

<more>

did I say moran?

yup
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:33 AM
Response to Original message
1. See! I have a gun and I can kill you.
Something like that happened to me in a supermarket parking lot. Some guy took offense at my parking in the space next to his SUV. He started an argument with me, and I was basically just laughing it off. He didn't like that, so he pulled back his jacket so I could see his pistol. I laughed even harder at him. What was he going to do, shoot me in a parking lot? I just laughed and walked to the store. Moron.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. He was just celebrating his freedom - and you laughed at him?
you are so bad

:hi:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. He's lucky I didn't have my cell phone with me. The police station
is only a block away from the supermarket. I'd have called 911 in a second, but I left it at home.

So, yes, I laughed at the moron, and asked him if he was really planning to shoot me over a parking spot. Then I laughed some more.


Note: I have a CCW permit in Minnesota.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. He was a moron. And he did use his gun to compensate for a lack of self confidence. And you should
have called the police, even if you had to invent a mnemonic device to recall his vehicle tag later.

Guns are not for intimidating people in non-threatening situations. They are not for putting people in their place.

I fully support you against this idiot, be he a CCW permit holder, a cop, a judge, or a federal agent. If you made no physical threats, he is a menace and should be forbidden to carry, at the very least.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. So you left your car there for him to key it
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #4
18. So, you laughed at someone committing a serious crime, and didn't even get the plate?
SURE this happened. I totally believe you.


On the off chance you did acutally have this encounter: thanks a pantload for leaving a dangerous asshole on the streets, when all it would have required on your part was to call in the plate, and fill out a police report.
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
26. I am with you
100% dumbass.
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rl6214 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. this is why a lot of criminals get away with stuff
you should have called the police on him. That is a criminal act and we keep letting people get away with criminal acts. If our judges and DAs would enforce the laws on the books we would be a whole lot better off and we wouldn't have people screaming about passing new gun laws, when we don't enforce the ones we have.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. You sure do have a lot of adventures.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. I've lived a long time.
:shrug:
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TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
3. Just wait until the unrec patrol wakes up
You'll get yours.:rofl: :rofl:
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RamboLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. You ought to check when stories already posted here
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. this sounds like a DGU
one of the billions that happened in just the last month...according to reliable statistics provided by Gary Kleck.

Another douchebag waving his gun around, polled by Gary Kleck, who was using his gun defensively.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Awwww, whats wrong.....
Edited on Tue May-10-11 08:49 PM by eqfan592
....all hot and bothered because somebody actually showed some solid evidence your BS was just what it is, BS?

You might find this interesting reading material.

http://www.guncite.com/gcwhoGK.html
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. if you'd like me to list the flaws in Kleck's methodology again
...and also that his studies were designed to be slanted, I'll be more than happy to do so.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Better yet tell my why he would
I read the Brady/Joyce Foundation BS, but they did not answer these questions that are relevant:
So tell me, why did he slant them? Did Florida State University get a grant from the NRA anytime from 1976-2007?
Is he a secret gun owner? No like many of his peers, he supported your side until he done the research.
Is the American Society of Criminology an NRA front group or get an NRA grant before or after giving Dr. Kleck the award?
Are the two sociologists that peer reviewed his work, also NRA shills?
Marvin Wolfgang: "I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people."
"The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well."
Lawrence Ross has similar views.

The only difference between his, DOJ, CDC, and the Joyce Foundation funded crap antis usually drag only disagrees with the number but not the basic premise.
I also read a couple of Dr. Kleck's books.
The so called Harvard studies are ideologically driven as well as money. Joyce Foundation is only play for pay.

But hey, if you want to call him a NRA shill, tell it to his face.

http://www.criminology.fsu.edu/p/faculty-gary-kleck.php
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. He had a point of view, he wanted to sell books
Edited on Tue May-10-11 11:39 PM by HankyDubs
These are a few of the flaws in his methodology, as outlined here: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Hemenway1.htm

A) the number one problem is self-reporting. I was kidding around about billions of DGU's but I was alluding to this problem. You could have two wackjob idiots brandishing guns at eachother over a parking space, and both could report that incident to Kleck as a DGU. Another problem with self-reporting is that gun owners see a DGU as a heroic incident, leading to a tendency to over-report. Gun owners are only human.

B) The survey was conducted by a company owned by Mr. Gertz, and they pollsters knew that they were trying to get a certain outcome.

C) The pollsters asked to speak to male heads of households, deliberately excluding females in the home. They ignored the statistical impact of non-respondents. They also oversampled the south and midwest. Their numbers were then sloppily extrapolated over the entire population, including women and children, whom they deliberately sought to dramatically under-represent.

Seriously, the Kleck-Gertz survey is a joke. Read the Hemenway paper, it isn't long and its actually helpful in understanding statistical data in general. Lots of pro-gun people on this forum (the ones who are sane, honest decent people) have come to recognize this. Hemenway acknowledges that the NCVS data is also flawed, leading to underestimation of DGU's. There just isn't a reliable method for estimating DGU's, but Kleck deliberately presents fatally flawed data because he has an agenda. Why does he have that agenda? I don't know, but it's perfectly clear he has one.

My guess is that he wanted to sell books.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. Wow, a somewhat rational sounding post!
If only your others could follow suit....and if only you could apply that rationality to the subject at hand.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Seriously, I read Hemenway's
His stuff shows up in Joyce Foundation shill work. The problem I have with both Hemenway and John Lott is that they are economists not criminologists. This is amateur hour for both of them. Yes John Lott is on my side, that does not excuse anything. Hemenway says a lot of stuff and points to studies as "a study" I can not find in Google Scholar. Guess what that tells me?

A) His numbers were in the 2.5 million range, others were were lower. Kleck said it is flawed and addressed the issue in his books. Why did not Wolfgang and Ross have the same questions as Hemenway? Point is even Hemenway still came up with more DGU than crimes, just a lot lower number, in the 80K range.

B) Maybe Gertz owned the company, what evidence do you have the pollsters knew that they were going for a certain outcome? Wolfgang and Ross would have objected to it.

C) show the evidence, like how. Again, Wolfgang and Ross did not mention this.

"Hemenway acknowledges that the NCVS data is also flawed, leading to underestimation of DGU's."
You said that Hemenway thinks that there are more DGUs than Kleck reported. Kleck also pointed possible problems with accuracy. Read his books. Sorry, Kleck's agenda and is strictly academic. I checked the guy out. Selling out to sell a couple of books that will never make much money, is absurd.

On a philosophical level, Kleck is no NRA darling. At the very least, he thinks (in an email to me) that individuals sales should go through NICS.

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/2027.42/34837/1/6_ftp.pdf

Here is Kleck's and Gertz's answer:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz2.htm
I read yours, read mine.



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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. THIS!
I may bookmark this post. Very well done!
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. the proof is in the pudding
C) show the evidence, like how. Again, Wolfgang and Ross did not mention this.

I'm going to start with this, because the proof is right there in Kleck and Gertz's response. Hemenway asserts that they asked to interview male heads of households...in my opinion this is the most damning part of his criticism. This shows that not only did the K&G survey come up with skewed results...they INTENTIONALLY skewed the results by deliberately excluding all females and males who weren't heads of households, and then extrapolating their data over the whole population.

But in all of the K&G response, THEY DO NOT MENTION THIS ISSUE AT ALL. If they could dispute this assertion, it would be the centerpiece of their response. Instead, they completely ignore this most important point. HAH! K&G are not to be taken seriously on this fact alone.

I've read this article before. The K&G response is actually very shrill and unprofessional in its tone. Where Hemenway simply makes points about validity and reliability, they level accusations and fake outrage. The response begins with an ad hominem diatribe against Hemenway, which is also how you began this post. Your arguments are insufficient in themselves, so you attack Hemenway's motives.

Even total laymen understand that survey results are not trustworthy if they are conducted by an agency owned by the person with a staked-out position. K&G fake some outrage here and accuse Hemenway of "libeling" their survey takers, which is totally ridiculous. One need not intentionally dummy up data in order to skew results, and reputable polling agencies are reputable BECAUSE they don't have a staked-out position. The only substantive response K&G offer here is that "a supervisor" checked up on positive results (but not negative ones or subjects that chose not to respond). Of course the supervisor is even more likely to be hopelessly biased than the original survey taker.

The other main point that Hemenway makes is about false positives in surveys that rely on self-reporting. In such low incidence events, even a small number of false positives with skew the data hopelessly. K&G counter with an argument that false negatives could also skew the data, but this doesn't hold up to scrutiny. If a person was interested in concealing illegal behavior, they wouldn't sit through a phone survey in order to give a false negative, they would simply hang up. Again, non-responses and hangups aren't dealth with in K&G's methodology at all...which is another point they completely ignore in their response...because they have no meaningful response, just as they had no meaningful repsonse to the "male head of household" issue.

They also compare their survey to Gallup presidential polling. Apples and oranges. First of all, polls of this nature measure relatively HIGH incidence events (like having an opinion on a presidential candidate), and are not going to suffer nearly so much from false reporting for that reason. These polls are also taken very frequently by a variety of polling groups, so the actual sample group is MUCH MUCH MUCH larger than K&G's sample.

The best point made in the response is that all survey results are open to criticism. Not much of a point, but better than anything else they can muster.

So again, Kleck and Gertz are a joke. Their response is evasive, defensive and shrill...because they know that their data doesn't hold up and Hemenway exposed that. People who cite K&G's study have the excuse that they are ignorant about the methodology, but that is precisley why trumpeting these survey results is so dangerous.

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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I take it you did not read Kleck's books
so you are taking it on faith that Hemenway isn't just making the crap up. Hemenway made a lot of claims that he could not back up and you repeating the same thing without providing empirical evidence will not make it so. If Kleck did not mention it how would Hemenway know? Hemenway has not in nearly twenty years released his raw data beyond his exec summary for peer review. Hemenway made the whole thing up for money and political reasons. You failed to answer any of my questions. Your attempts fell way short. Go to any library or Amazon and see Kleck's raw data. Sorry Hemenway is a joke and a whore.
My view on the gun issue was formed not so much by the fact I grew up in Wyoming was raised by hunters and cops. A big chunk of it is being an INTP. Emotional appeals and flowery BS about civilization does not mean shit. Empirical evidence is the only thing that matters. Terms like common sense mean nothing to me. Petty value judgement mean nothing to me. Ideology means nothing to me.
Speaking of civilization, while you may be appalled that we are a bunch of hicks to have rifle club in high school where you bring your rifle and we hunt for our food. That said, we don't shoot up our schools or our streets. We don't murder our cops. Our conservation officers patrol vast areas of wilderness lightly or unarmed, knowing that everyone they pull over is more heavily armed than they are. None have been murdered in Wyoming's history. We don't scapegoat a totally different demographic or inanimate objects for our problems.
Little history lesson, the whole "wild west" bullshit is just that. It only existed in the movies. Dodge at it's worst was safer than New York or Boston. The only difference is that writers like Ned Buntline wrote novels made robbers and contract killers in the west more colorful. That is all gunfighters were, no different than their city counterparts.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. of course I'm not going to read books by gary kleck
I'm not reading $arah Palin books, Barack Obama books either. Self-serving propaganda isn't really appealing to me. I'm also not reading Hemenway any time soon, if he has any books.

Now try to stay on topic. This isn't about hemenway's data and it's not about Dodge City. Lots of those "wild" western towns had gun ordinances that would make the average NRA member yelp and shriek. For example, the famed "shootout" at the OK corral happened when the Earps and Doc Holliday were enforcing a gun ordinance in Tombstone.

http://www.newser.com/story/109407/the-wild-west-had-gun-laws-and-so-should-we.html

But back to the actual point from which you are distracting. My point was that in their response to Hemenway--the article YOU CITED--Kleck and Gertz make NO MENTION AT ALL of the primary criticism (in my view) that Hemenway asserts, namely that their survey intentionally and dramatically oversampled the "male head of household" demographic, then sloppily and deceptively extrapolated their result over the whole population as if every single American was a middle-aged male. Point-by-point they attack other portions of his article, but make NO MENTION AT ALL of this pointed criticism. Why? Why do they choose to ignore this?

Because they have no response whatsoever.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. The American Society of Criminology called his first book
"the most outstanding contribution to criminology" when they awarded him the Michael J. Hindelang Award and you compare to Sarah Palin? You blindly believe some self serving bullshit that some shill made a claim about just because Kleck did not call him out on one minor point which was not even true? If Kleck were to list every item where Hemenway was full of shit it would have taken pages. Even Hememway's attempt at disproving it, he still showed that DGUs out number gun related murders and suicides.

and you call newser.com history? Newser is partly right. Tombstone's ordinance only applied to non residents. If you lived there, your guns were not regulated.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. uh....what
Edited on Thu May-12-11 01:48 PM by HankyDubs
Kleck did not call him out on one minor point which was not even true?

It's not a minor point, cowboy. You know it's not a minor point, or you don't know shit about statistics.

Gary Kleck is a joke.

Tombstone's ordinance only applied to non residents. If you lived there, your guns were not regulated.

OMG FREEDUMBS TAKIN AWAY!!! BE AFRAIDDDDD!!!
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friendly_iconoclast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #30
31. "Trust me, not the American Society of Criminology" Got 'ipse dixit'?
You were the person that said that a college that had a triple homicide via firearm had an effective gun ban, were you not?
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. trust the eyes in your head
Edited on Thu May-12-11 02:40 PM by HankyDubs
Kleck and Gertz do not deny that they intentionally oversampled middle aged males. If they could deny that, they certainly would. Point-by-point they attacked Hemenway's other arguments (using a shrill, unprofessional tone because their arguments were weak), but they didn't even attempt to defend or deny this extremely serious and clearly intentional flaw in their methodology.

As for the American Society of Criminology, arguing from authority doesn't work, as one of the self-appointed fallacy detectors here, you ought to know that.

I'm going to type real slowly so you can understand. If they intentionally and dramatically oversampled male heads of households, then their data is hopelessly flawed. If they didn't do this, then they would have denied it. Res ipse loquitur.

As Hemenway explained, it is not possible to get statistically reliable data on DGU's for a variety of reasons. Just because you dearly want to use K&G's data does not mean thier data is reliable. Pretend for a moment that you aren't hopelessly biased.

And as the reactions on this forum clearly show, many (most?) gun owners aren't reliable self-reporters. Too many have been co-opted by the gun lobby. Their agenda is far more important than the facts.

I was on the SJSU campus last week. On many many nights I have walked through the campus to a parking garage (admittedly not the one in which the murders occurred). The SJSU campus is a safe place.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. For someone who claims to know statistics, you miss a lot..
You correct for sampling ratios (either intentional or random) when you run the numbers.

Most gallup polls oversample the south. Maybe there are more people with land lines, or more people willing to talk to a pollster. Gallup weights the data to account for that.

This is basic stats stuff. *sigh*
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. so you don't have anything substantial to add
*fart*
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. You've harped on a point-- which is your misunderstanding of stats.
Yah, that's all I have to add ;)
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. don't bother offering support
just make unsupported assertions
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Pick up a stats textbook, ya?
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. applies to statistics collected without intentional bias
Edited on Thu May-12-11 04:49 PM by HankyDubs
Not to the K&G survey, which was not conducted by an unbiased third party, but instead by K&G, who had a staked-out position and were looking for data to support that staked-out position. I don't even see immediate evidence that they even attempted to control for the oversampling of southern males that they built into the survey intentionally. Again, from Hemenway.

K-G derive their 2.5 million estimate from the fact that 1.33% of the individuals surveyed reported that they themselves used a gun in self-defense during the past year; <15> in other words, about 66 people out of 5000 reported such a use. Extrapolating the 1.33% figure to the entire population of almost 200 million adults gives 2.5 million uses.

Many problems exist with the survey conducted by Kleck and Gertz. A deficiency in their article is that they do not provide detailed information about their survey methodology or discuss its many limitations. For example, the survey was conducted by a small firm run by Professor Gertz. The interviewers presumably knew both the purpose of the survey and the staked-out position of the principal investigator regarding the expected results.

The article states that when a person answered, the interview was completed 61% of the time. <16> But what happened when there was a busy signal, an answering machine or no answer? If no one was interviewed at a high percentage of the initially selected homes, the survey cannot be relied on to yield results representative of the population.


They conducted the survey and "ran" the numbers themselves, worried that a 3rd party might not be biased enough.

I "seized" on the oversampling of southern males because the person who originally responded asserted that this was not the case. This was only one of many flaws within the survey, one I consider to be very significant.

There are other people questioning K&G's results, based mostly on the false-positive problem.

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/SmithT1.htm

http://www.ncjrs.gov/txtfiles/165476.txt

Gary Kleck is a joke.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Actually he does in the book
you still have not explained why those Wolfgang and Ross say nothing of it. You still have not shown evidence of an agenda to cook the books. These guys do not dispute the basic thesis only the number of DGUs, which still outnumber homicides. Your boy does not disprove anything.
Closing argument? Kleck and Gertz acquitted.

Hemenway is a joke.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. so now you argue Gary Kleck isn't pro-gun?
I'll quote xdiggy here:

*snort*
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #42
55. no
simply that they both agree that DGUs outnumber murders with guns. I never said he was pro gun or anti gun. Based on what I read and my correspondence with him I would say he is neither.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. Please do read the article again (or google!).. you missed the point.
Intentional oversampling applies any time you're after a rare event. Unintentional oversampling occurs randomly. (You correct for both.)

That's the only hint I'll give you.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. so all surveys intentionally exclude females?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. *looks at his mouth.. me: "Mouth, did you say that?" mouth: "No, I didn't say that.." n/t
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. it was a question, Do you understand the function of a question mark?
So why did Gary Kleck intentionally exclude them?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Yes, but when you ask a stupid question, expect a silly response.
Previous NCVS surveys skewed towards men having more DGUs (80/20 outside the home).

Studied up on intentional oversampling yet to understand why you would then start with men?
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. i always expect a silly response from you
and I never expect you to respond to direct questions.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. *faints* I'm just crushed. n/t
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. still no response
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #50
51. Perhaps you missed it..
"Previous NCVS surveys skewed towards men having more DGUs (80/20 outside the home)."

The rest of your answer lies in the reason why some studies use intentional oversampling.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. that's not an answer to the question
It's just an evasion.

Why did K&G deliberately seek to exclude women from their sample?

If they wanted to avoid problems with the NCVS estimates (their stated goal, though not their actual goal)...why would they intentionally make one of the same sampling errors?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. *sigh* I see you didn't do your homework on oversampling.
Edited on Thu May-12-11 08:43 PM by X_Digger
When you have a rare event you're trying to study via survey, you often try to pre-compress the sample size to bring out more of the behavior or criteria that you wish to study. You can then correct for the oversampling in your analysis phase.

If all you're after is a raw probability (a single branch binary leaf), a random sample is fine (assuming no unintentional oversampling.) If you have a multi-branch probability tree, you will get few *meaningful* results from a truly random sample, if the event is truly rare.

For example, let's say you're studying people struck by lighting. For a simple incidence, you could call 1,000 people and come up with a rough count of lightning strikes. It's a simple binary branch- struck by lighting {yes|no}. Assuming even distribution of the characteristics likely to produce lighting victims, and no oversampling of those characteristics, you might have a potentially good count. The problem is that with a truly rare event, your sample might not be large enough to get a representative number of test cases.

So what do you do? You can expand your pool until you get to a number of cases that is representative, or you can look for characteristics shared by many of those known to have been struck by lighting (people 18-25, for example), and modify your pool of participants to have more of those characteristics. Then you can take the incidence of lighting strikes in this modified pool, and multiply by the incidence of whatever characteristic you've pre-compressed based on (what percentage of the sample is 18-25, eg).

This also allows you to collect more data about lighting strike victims, such as whether or not they were wearing jewelry, what kind of shoes they were wearing, what was the temperature outside-- things that would be hard to generalize from a smaller test set collected from a truly random sample of the same size. When the decision tree is not binary, and you have multiple branches and leaves, oversampling becomes critical- especially if the behavior you want to study is at the end of a long line of decision branches.

Since Kleck and Gertz weren't looking for just incidence, they chose the latter approach. One of the characteristics shared by about 80% of the previously identified DGUs was being male. So they oversampled men, to get more cases to interview, then decreased the incidence accordingly. You see these 'weighted' values at sites like the CDC's wisqars, or many studies- even Hemenway / Kellerman studies (weighted risk factors).

I can dig up some appropriate books on survey methodology, if you'd actually like to understand it, rather than huff and puff. I'd also recommend Kleck's later book, if you're truly curious about how the survey was put together. They didn't *just* talk to male heads of households, by the way.

Here, since you seem to have missed it from the Hemenway screed-

K-G oversampled males and individuals from the South and West.


Notice that does not say excluded women.

And from the K-G paper itself..

We also over sampled within contacted households for males, who are more likely to own guns and to be victims of crimes in which victims might use guns defensively. Data were later weighted to adjust for over sampling.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #53
56. Since Hemenway seems to have conceded this point
Then I will too.

Kleck and Gertz's DGU estimates do not appear to be artifacts
of any particular computational or weighting decisions made in their analysis.
If there is a problem here, it is intrinsic to the method.


http://home.uchicago.edu/~ludwigj/papers/JPAM_Cook_Ludwig_Hemenway_2007.pdf

But I certainly do not concede other points about flaws in Kleck's results, i.e. false positives:

An additional possible source of false DGU reports is strategic responses by
gun owners. With around 3 million National Rifle Association (NRA) members
of respondents who are both aware of the ongoing empirical debate on this
topic and feel a vested interest in the perpetuation of high DGU estimates.


One need only consult the DU gun forum to see that this is certainly the case. NRA members are very much invested in bringing the number up as high as possible, because they are so totally servile to the organization.

Nor do I concede the point made here about any methodology that relies on self-reporting:

The difficulty in answering this question arises in part because of the ambiguous
nature of many gun uses that are reported as "defensive" by respondents.
Among the incidents in the NSPOF that meet the Kleck and Gertz-type criteria
for "genuine" defensive gun uses, in almost one third the most serious crime
reported by the respondent is a fight or attack. Assigning fault in a violent
encounter can be a daunting problem even to a detective who has a chance
to interview everyone involved, let alone a survey interviewer who is asking a
few questions of just one of the combatants. In a recent telephone survey of 1905
adults , 13 respondents reported a defensive
gun use against a criminal attacker. In contrast, 38 respondents indicated that
a gun had been displayed against them in a hostile manner during an argument
or some other circumstance. We suspect that many of the 38 gun users involved
in these hostile brandishings would have claimed self-defense if they had been
contacted by telephone.


Gary Kleck has demonstrated himself to me to be a dishonest person, pushing an agenda. If he had wanted his results to be above suspicion, a third party polling organization should have been used. But since he CLEARLY wanted to obtain a certain result, he couldn't allow a disinterested party to conduct the survey. I can't take his self-promoting books seriously. He has made himself into a minor celebrity, which surely was another goal of the survey.

Obviously I take Hemenway more seriously because I agree with his position and argumentation, but I also find him to be less nasty and defensive than Kleck. Kleck begins his original reponse by attacking Hemenway personally and accusing him of dishonesty, something Hemenway does not respond to in any of the articles I see.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Well, you can't have your cake and eat it too..
Edited on Thu May-12-11 10:33 PM by X_Digger
Hemenway relies on the NVCS, which would suffer the same foible that he tries to pin on Kleck, but in the other direction.

Namely, the NCVS interviewer identifies themselves as working for the government, confirms someone's name, address, etc- then asks them if they have a gun, defensive use, etc. It's anything BUT anonymous, as it's derived from those who have reported crimes.

If you're going to assert bias ++ in one survey, you have to assume bias -- in the other. And I would assert that the push toward bias would be stronger for the disincentive- One is anonymous, the other is not. If your NRA conspiracy had any weight, you'd have to assume that those mindless NRA zombies would lie to 'da gubbmint'.

There were (at the time) 3M NRA members, in a population of about 260M adults. (1993 census projection from the 1990 census.)

The chance of getting an NRA member on the phone, by dialing a random number? Just over 1 percent.

Overall? Much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

In a recent telephone survey of 1905 adults , 13 respondents reported a defensive gun use against a criminal attacker. In contrast, 38 respondents indicated that a gun had been displayed against them in a hostile manner during an argument or some other circumstance. We suspect that many of the 38 gun users involved in these hostile brandishings would have claimed self-defense if they had been contacted by telephone.


That's a false dichotomy- both could be true. All, some portion, or none of those 38 could have been because the respondent took a swing at someone, pulled a knife, was menacing someone, or otherwise acted in a manner that a reasonable person would fear grievous bodily harm.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Cake? Yum!
If you're going to assert bias ++ in one survey, you have to assume bias -- in the other.

Of course, in any survey there is a possibility of false negatives as well as
false positives. Kleck and Gertz emphasize this possibility, arguing that because
many respondents may worry that their defensive actions were somehow illegal,
they will not admit to them during the survey interview. Kleck and Gertz
argue that this effect should outweigh any other misreporting effects and lead
to, if anything, an underestimate of the annual number of defensive uses.

Yet by any measure, including the Kleck-Gertz estimate, defensive gun use
is a relatively rare event. If 0.5 percent of adults experience a DGU each year,
in a survey of 1000 adults only about five would logically have the opportunity
to provide a false negative.
On the other hand, for 995 of the 1000 respondents,
the only logically possible misclassification error is a false positive-and there
are good reasons why some might falsely claim to have used a gun in self defense.

For one, using a gun defensively against a criminal may be a genuinely
heroic act, and is often portrayed as such in movies and occasionally so in the
nightly news.


Pretty effective destruction of that talking point, I'd say.

The chance of getting an NRA member on the phone, by dialing a random number? Just over 1 percent...If your NRA conspiracy had any weight, you'd have to assume that those mindless NRA zombies would lie to 'da gubbmint'.


And a 100% chance that the NRA member (or non-member who adores guns and is invested in the debate) would be predisposed to provide a false positive. A significant percentage of your mindless NRA zombies have an abiding hatred of the "duhr guburmint" and therefore are predisposed to (your word) "lie."

Overall? Much ado about nothing, in my opinion.

That's where you're wrong. Because of the low incidence of DGU's, it's much ado about something. A few false positives can result in huge overestimations, but you knew that.

All, some portion, or none of those 38 could have been because the respondent took a swing at someone, pulled a knife, was menacing someone, or otherwise acted in a manner that a reasonable person would fear grievous bodily harm.

Or, and I just love to keep pointing this out, BOTH could have been brandishing firearms over stupid shit, and each one reporting the incident as a DGU. It could also be some asshole republican legislator brandishing his firearm at random motorists...hey what is the topic of this thread again?
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 11:51 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Not quite..
Any rare event will have the possibility of false positives- which is why Kleck and Gertz designed multiple follow-on questions, asked in different ways, such that they had to be internally consistent, or they would be thrown out.

Interview supervisors called back anyone reporting a DGU (after a period of time) and asked slightly different versions of the questions to check consistency. If there was any inconsistency, it was thrown out. It's the nature of a lie to exaggerate on the spot, and to not catch inconsistencies at the time of the telling. That's why cops grill subjects over and over and over, asking what seems like the same questions, in different ways.

Such is the advantage of using a criminologist to do the research, rather than an econometric epidemiologist.

Or, and I just love to keep pointing this out, BOTH could have been brandishing firearms over stupid shit, and each one reporting the incident as a DGU. It could also be some asshole republican legislator brandishing his firearm at random motorists...hey what is the topic of this thread again?


I think you misread- nothing in the quote suggests that both happened at the same time.

In a recent telephone survey of 1905 adults , 13 respondents reported a defensive gun use against a criminal attacker. In contrast, 38 respondents indicated that a gun had been displayed against them in a hostile manner during an argument or some other circumstance. We suspect that many of the 38 gun users involved in these hostile brandishings would have claimed self-defense if they had been contacted by telephone.


Were the 13 separate people from the 38? Were the 13 incidents a subset of the 38? Who knows? The quote doesn't say. I read what the author wants you to infer, but it's carefully worded to leave you without knowledge one way or the other.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #62
63. quite
Interview supervisors called back anyone reporting a DGU (after a period of time) and asked slightly different versions of the questions to check consistency. If there was any inconsistency, it was thrown out. It's the nature of a lie to exaggerate on the spot, and to not catch inconsistencies at the time of the telling.

Again we are assuming that the supervisor didn't have a staked-out position and was not predisposed to ignore any inconsistencies. That could have been largely avoided if the study had been conducted by a third party, but then Kleck and Gertz couldn't have controlled the study to get their desired outcome.

There is also no reason that a person can't tell the same lie twice. If only a few persons had been able to "deceive" the supervisor (who has an incentive to be deceived anyway, being an employee of Mr. Gertz), that skews the results dramatically. They could be recalling an actual event in which no gun was involved, getting every detail right from memory and then inserting a gun into a situation in which there was no actual gun (substitute gun for baseball bat, knife, barking dog etc.)

Sometimes the false positive might not even be an act of overt deception, but merely a person repeatedly recalling vivid details about an incident that never happened...because they are not of entirely sound mind. Another thing...if respondents misreport real live DGUs as occurring within the referenced time period (1 or 5 years) due to telescoping, then in the follow-up interview they would almost certainly make the very same completely inadvertent error.

That's why cops grill subjects over and over and over, asking what seems like the same questions, in different ways.

Cops "grill" subjects on more than two occasions, and also often have the subject in a position where they are under considerable pressure and prone to making mistakes. Sitting on your couch talking to a pollster isn't even remotely the same situation.

"nothing in the quote suggests that both happened at the same time."

Nothing excludes the possibility either.

"I read what the author wants you to infer, but it's carefully worded to leave you without knowledge one way or the other."

And I read your desired assumption that the brandisher was acting heroically, but as you say you have no knowledge on which to base that assumption. And again, it could just be an asshole republiklan legislator waving his gun around in traffic.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Sounds like you're dipping into the realm of faith
Kleck and Gertz designed controls to try to weed out false positives- more than any previous study of this kind. Neither NSPOF, NCVS, nor any of the other 12-15 surveys went so far. Not good enough for you, apparently. Will anything ever be?

You don't want it to be true, therefore nothing short of video evidence would convince you. (And then you'd loudly wonder if it hadn't been staged.)

I'm surprised you didn't claim that nobody was actually called. I mean, if you're seeing boogeymen in every step-- NRA acolytes having a detailed story ready that's internally consistent and repeatable days later, nefarious survey takers skewing the results, researchers using methods that you don't understand (oversampling)-- why not claim that they didn't even call anyone?

Sitting on your couch talking to a pollster isn't even remotely the same situation.


No, it isn't. You're not likely going to be thinking about consistency without that pressure. You're just bullshitting to someone on the phone. Most people are terrible liars and can't keep a story straight long enough to tell it, much less when someone calls back days later.

Your criticisms boil down to a series of 'what-if's, each of which is unverifiable, and more importantly, unfalsifiable. Since one can't prove a negative, there is no level of scrutiny that would satisfy you.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Projection!
Edited on Fri May-13-11 03:56 PM by HankyDubs
Let's be clear about the REAL difference between you and me. A while back I cited whatever study it was that concluded a gun owner was more likely to be killed by a gun than to use it in self defense. Somebody (it may even have been you) pointed out to me that there were serious flaws in that study, and I have not once made that claim since. Though it might serve my agenda to do so, the facts are more important to me. I recognize that using bad data harms my cause.

But when I point out the flaws in this study to you, you bob and weave; you spin and argue. Just like the fundie christian who operates on faith alone, the truth really isn't all that important to you if it doesn't line up with your agenda. The fundie christians lie and distort because they believe they are serving a higher power, and so do you. They serve "Gawd" and you serve the NRA.

You know as well as I that you will be back here in a few weeks or less talking about between 1 million and 2.5 million as if there was anything remotely credible about data with that kind of a gap between the high and low figures. The truth, that self-reporting is inherently unreliable, means little to you because you have an agenda to promote, a master to serve.

And no, I don't like your silly macho gun culture, your right wing propaganda organ. I see the harm done. It makes me sick.
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 05:09 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. "macho gun culture" -- who's using emotion, rather than reason again?
You railed on for 4 or 5 posts about a method you didn't seem to understand and your ultimate criticism boils down to "the NRA zombies lie and Kleck sucks!" One thing to note that goes against your bias assertion that you may not have realized- the date of the survey. When this survey was done, there were only a handful of states with 'shall issue' concealed permits, so many of the DGUs reported were likely themselves illegal at the time.

Neither you, nor Hemenway come up with any serious criticism related to the actual methodology. His criticism boils down to reliance on comparison to NCVS, speculation, and "self-reporting sucks!"-- which would surprise the hell out of a lot of social scientists. They are the ones who developed the referential integrity design that helps weed out false responses.

No, the closest Hemenway comes is his criticism of the controls against telescoping (remembering events as happening more recently than in reality). But even then, if we take only the most recent event, we're left with an estimated 1.2M DGUs at the time of the survey.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #66
68. so evasive!
Here again, we see the difference between me and you. When I'm wrong, I can own up. But you, you can never ever admit you're wrong because you are a clear-eyed true believer. The facts don't matter to you.

Hemenway's points are very clear, and you can't dispute them, just as Kleck can't dispute them. Like Kleck, you get nasty immediately because you don't have anything else to say. You gloss over important points that you would not ignore if the survey said something that you didn't fervently believe in.

There are several flaws in the survey--self-reporting, attempting to extrapolate data with extremely low-incidence events, telescoping, the use of a biased party's (Gertz) company to do the survey...there are multiple problems that contribute to a wildly unreliable number. You dismiss these because they just aren't convenient to the narrative you're pushing.

But you're one of the faithful, the facts don't matter to you. The NRA agenda first, last and always.

Your crowd constantly appeals to emotion, that emotion being fear. Without fear, paranoia and racism, you'd be SOL.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. "When I'm wrong, I can own up."
Edited on Fri May-13-11 11:24 PM by eqfan592
HA....AHAHAHA......AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :nuke:

Ok, seriously though, that was a good one. Carry on now.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #69
70. still following me around the forum eh
this is getting a bit stalky.

But I'm not surprised you have nothing to say.

Did you really need to edit that post, btw?
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 11:52 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. Hey, if you wouldn't say such funny things....
....I wouldn't feel the need to express my humor at them. So blame yourself for that, buddy. :P And yes, the laughter broke the word wrap, so in order to keep the post from screwing up the entire thread, I edited it to break up the laughter a bit. :P

And no, I have nothing to say to you at this time. Your post was a great example of hackery, that deserved nothing more than laughter. Good evening :)
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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #68
72. When you actually come up with more than speculation, the 'mea culpa' will be on me.
The difference between you and me, apparently, is that I know a bit about survey methodology, oversampling, confidence intervals- hell, college level stats.

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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. one last point
You stated earlier that only 1% of participants in Kleck's survey were likely to be NRA members, but as usual that's a distortion. Of the people who responded postitively, a much larger percentage of those persons will be NRA members, since gun owners are much more likely to be members of the NRA than non-gun owners. Since we have already established that NRA members are likely to lie about DGU's because they are slavishly devoted to the organization (you yourself are a prime example), this further demonstrates the point about self-reporting.

You would be here making all of these same points if a survey presented results you didn't like, but since you desperately need to swallow Kleck's BS in order to push your agenda, you minimize and ignore serious flaws.

Now I know you have a need to have the last word, so feel free to indulge your pathology.


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X_Digger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-15-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Again, stats isn't your strong suit.. hell, not even logic.


What percentage of the Respondents were NRA members? In a random-dial survey, it would have been about 1% at the time.

It's likely that of those Respondents who own guns, a higher percentage would be NRA members, but there is no reason to believe that the survey methodology would tend to select for NRA membership. Any variable that would also do so (such as sex or geography), was weighted for.

Again, I recommend you pick up a college level textbook on stats and spend some time with it. Here's a good one on survey methodology- http://www.amazon.com/gp/search?index=books&linkCode=qs&keywords=0470465468

Since we have already established that


Only in your fevered imagination, Hanky.

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-16-11 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #68
76. Howls of derisive laughter, Bruce
Hemenway's points are very clear, and you can't dispute them, just as Kleck can't dispute them.

Say what, now? I was under the impression a number of Hemenway's points had been quite thoroughly demolished in this thread alone. Apparently by "owning up" you mean "pretend to acknowledge the errors in your source but continue to insist the source is correct, thereby for all practical purposes disregarding those errors."

There are several flaws in the survey--self-reporting <...>

Surveys by definition rely on self-reporting; that's what a survey is. The lack of reliability touted by Hemenway in his critique of the Kleck-Gertz study has, curiously, not deterred him from using this particular tool himself, before and since. Evidently, surveys are only unreliable when they produce results that are incommodious to Hemenway's agenda.

<...> attempting to extrapolate data with extremely low-incidence events <...>

Again, this is something that social scientists do all the time, simply because, when trying to research events or aspects of events of which no documented records exist, there's nothing else available. That applies to the above point as well, incidentally. And again, Hemenway himself has had no compunction about using this tool to measure low-incidence events" himself when it suited his purpose.

And as Kleck and Gertz rightly point out in their rebuttal, Hemenway's argument about the sensitivity of the data to false positives is based on the assumption that the number of actual DGUs is far smaller than claimed, which is begging the question, since that is the very conclusion Hemenway is trying to reach.

<...> telescoping <...>

Hemenway is critical of Kleck & Gertz's belief "that most of their respondents who claim a self-defense gun use in the past year are reporting accurately" and rejects it on the basis solely of the findings of the NCVS, in the process blithely ignoring Kleck & Gertz's arguments why the NCVS's estimates of DGUs might be flawed, let alone addressing and refuting them. Moreover, ongoing research at the University of Amsterdam's Department of Psychology indicates that, where events are concerned that occurred within the past 1.5-2 years, telescoping a) produces quite small amounts of error, and b) takes the form of "backward telescoping" (believing an event to have occurred less recently than it actually did) almost as often as it does of "forward telescoping."

And while, when one gets to periods of five years or more, telescoping does become both more pronounced (estimates are off by a wider margin) and (far) more likely to be "forward," error is also much smaller for events that were more personally relevant. I took the UvA's online test (http://memory.uva.nl/testpanel/gc/en/), and found that while my recollection when the earthquake in northern Pakistan (Oct 2005)*, the assassination of Benazir Bhutto (Dec 2007) and the collapse of the I-35W Mississippi River bridge in Minneapolis (Aug 2007) occurred were seriously off, my recollections of the dates of Katrina flooding New Orleans (Aug-Sep 2005) and the sinking of the Herald of Free Enterprise (Mar 1987) were accurate to within a week**. To further use myself as admittedly anecdotal evidence, I'm fairly confident I can date every burglary and violent crime I've been a victim of, or come close to being a victim of, in the past twenty years to within six months.

In short, I'm far from convinced telescoping is any where near as much of a problem as Hemenway makes it out to be.

<...> the use of a biased party's (Gertz) company to do the survey <...>

Petitio principii, namely that Kleck and Gertz had a "staked-out position" to begin with. Lest you try to present the survey's results as evidence that they did, I will point out pre-emptively that that would be a circular argument:
  • the survey produced skewed results because the researchers were biased
  • the researchers were biased because the survey produced skewed results
It should be noted, incidentally, that the fact that a survey/polling company isn't owned by the commissioning party is no guarantee of its objectivity. They're getting paid to produce results, after all, and the trustworthiness of the result of any survey depends primarily on what the client asks and pays for. Zogby in particular has developed a reputation for producing data that is amenable to the client's agenda (primarily by "push-polls"), but they're by no means the only ones.

At this point, let me demonstrate where Hemenway utterly shoots himself in the foot:
Based on eight national surveys, undertaken between 1976 and 1990, Kleck estimates that guns are used approximately 700,000 times per year in self-defense. <8> However, all eight surveys have very serious limitations. Compared to the NCVS, the sample size of each of these surveys is small (600-1500) and interviewers typically asked only one vague question about gun use in self-defense (e.g., "Have you used a gun in self-defense in the previous five years?") with no follow-up questions. <9> Only one of the surveys meets the minimum criteria of drawing from a representative national population, asking about a specific time frame, distinguishing civilian use from military or police uses, and distinguishing uses against humans from uses against animals. <10>

The objections that Hemenway levels against the Kleck-Gertz study apply much more strongly against these studies: there is far more potential for false positives regarding DGUs ("only one vague question" with no follow-up), sample sizes are less than 1/3 of Kleck & Gertz's sample size of 4,977, etc. etc. Therefore, if Hemenway's criticisms of Kleck & Gertz's work were accurate, these studies, suffering to a greater degree from the same flaws, should have produced estimated numbers of DGUs well in excess of Kleck & Gertz's estimate of 1.5-3.6 million. Instead, they produced an aggregate estimate that isn't even half as high as the lowest end of Kleck & Gertz's estimate. If--if--Hemenway's criticisms were valid, then how is this possible?


* - Most likely because I confused the 2005 Kashmir earthquake with the 2008 Quetta earthquake.
** - My mother and I had flown from Amsterdam to London earlier on the same day that the Herald of Free Enterprise sank, and friends and family who knew we would be traveling but didn't know by what route were alarmed we might have been on board.
I remember Katrina because I'd just spent 25 days in Siberia and three days on a train to Moscow, got to my hotel and turned on CNN for the first time in a month. I also recall reading in the paper over breakfast the following morning that it was the start of the school year, one year after the Beslan hostage crisis.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. arguing from authority
so what do you call accepting the authority of a fourth rate economist writing outside of his specialty over people who know the subject? Hemenway still did not disprove the basic theory just disagreed with the numbers, so I fail to see how that proves your point if you have one.
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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat May-14-11 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
73. I'm going to repeat a point because it's rather important
Kleck and Gertz do not deny that they intentionally oversampled middle aged males. If they could deny that, they certainly would.

Then why did they state explicitly in the original study that they oversampled males and the South and West? When you're trying to hide something, you don't generally openly state that thing before anyone even asks. The answer is that oversampling is extremely common in surveys, and done to provide a better picture of a particular subset of the sample. It is not an issue provided you weight the data to compensate, which Kleck & Gertz did.

And again, the strongest complaint Hemenway can muster is that "the authors do not explain their weighting technique." The fact that you're acting as if oversampling is a blatant attempt to skew the data, as opposed to a perfectly usual survey technique, indicates that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. How you can argue that Hemenway's critique is reasonable when you don't even understand it?

(using a shrill, unprofessional tone because their arguments were weak)
Ad hominem, coupled with a(nother) circular argument. It might be argued with at least equal credibility that Kleck & Gertz's tone was one of exasperation at Hemenway's shoddy critique.

As for the American Society of Criminology, arguing from authority doesn't work, as one of the self-appointed fallacy detectors here, you ought to know that.

An argument from authority is only fallacious in a number of situations, e.g.: if the authority cited is not an expert in that field (J.B. Handley on vaccines, William A. Dembski on evolution, Noam Chomsky on history and international relations); if the authority cited is biased (for instance, he holds a patent to a device or procedure, the likelihood of adoption of which will be influenced by the outcome of the argument, such as Andrew Wakefield-no-longer-M.D.); or if the authority's opinion is not representative of a general consensus in the field (Dr. Jay Gordon on vaccines, Michael Behe on evolution).

The American Society of Criminology is none of the above, not least because it's an organization, not an individual.

I have to say I'm disappointed. You gave the impression of being smarter than you evidently are.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #30
39. look city slicker
I'm not a cowboy, although I did have a high school summer job on a ranch once. My father was before he went to the rail road when he married my mom, so use the word with respect. No I do not know shit about statistics, I was a history major. I do know shill bullshit when I see it.

Before you bring it up, John Muir rocked and John Wayne was a draft dodging poser.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #39
57. look, bumpkin
I don't give a shit about your daddy.
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eqfan592 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. Who has anger issues again?
Yeah, you're doing some MAJOR projecting around these forums, buddy.
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HankyDubs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
61. Lol @ following me around the forum
hopping mad!

I thought that bumpkin was the opposite of city-slicker.
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gejohnston Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. post script
If K and G were so bad why did not the peer reviewers point this out? NRA buying off left leaning criminologists? Why has Hemenway never released his data for peer review?
What evidence do you have that K and G were looking for a particular result? Still, why? You make the claim but show no evidence. You tried to answer one question but did not do well and did not even bother to try the rest.
What makes an economist, one who writes shill crap off the top of his head, more qualified to critique a criminologist when other criminologists found no problem with the methods? You did not answer.
That is like a cultural anthropology undergrad telling a geologist how to look for oil. I could write something the same nonsense off of the top of my head.
You don't have the slightest clue about how the academic world works do you? Or is it cognitive bias? Or is it the noble lie?

If you are saying Kleck and Gertz are jokes than you are also saying that Wolfgang and Ross are jokes. If Kleck was a joke then you are saying his professional society who awarded his work are a bunch of saps, and that Florida State University made him department head because????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//

If I ever go on trial for anything I hope you are the prosecution, because you seem to think repeating your opening statement passes for evidence and motive. You did not even attempt at either.

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Euromutt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri May-13-11 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. Beautifully argued!
Edited on Fri May-13-11 06:07 PM by Euromutt
There's nothing quite a neat as a circle, is there?
Kleck deliberately presents fatally flawed data because he has an agenda. Why does he have that agenda? I don't know, but it's perfectly clear he has one.

So, in other words:
  • We know Kleck was pursuing an agenda because he used flawed data from his survey.
  • We know the data was flawed because Kleck influenced the survey.
  • We know Kleck influenced the survey because he was pursuing an agenda.
No matter where in the circle you start, the conclusion is the same as the premise; circulus in demonstrando (http://fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html)

My guess is that he wanted to sell books.

Except that "Armed Resistance to Crime: the Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun" was published in the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, and journals don't pay researchers for submitted articles.
As gejohnston pointed out, academics don't make a lot of money on royalties either, and one's academic career isn't enhanced by having higher sales numbers.

A shorter, and more honest, version of your circular argument is:
  • I don't like his results, he must have rigged the data
  • He must have rigged the data because I don't like his results

There just isn't a reliable method for estimating DGU's

Yes, particularly using survey data. Or so Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig argued, as did Hemenway himself with Deborah Azrael, while trying to explain why their own DGU surveys, to their dismay, produced results consistent with Kleck's (1.5m and 900,000 DGUs annually, resp. which due to smaller sample sizes had margins of error that readily overlapped Kleck's). The term for that is "ad hoc fallacy" (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#adhoc) and it's particularly egregious in the case of Cook & Ludwig, who were happy to accept findings from their survey that were to their liking (e.g. indicating that ~35%, rather than 50%, of American households possessed firearms).

You could have two wackjob idiots brandishing guns at eachother over a parking space, and both could report that incident to Kleck as a DGU.

From Kleck & Gertz's original study:
Cases of "mutual combat," where it would be hard to tell who is the aggressor or where both parties are aggressors, would be a subset of the 30% of cases where assault was the crime involved. However, only 19% of all DGU cases involved only assault and no other crime where victim and offender could be more easily distinguished. Further, only 11% of all DGU cases involved only assault and a male defender--we had no information on gender of offenders--some subset of these could have been male-on-male fights. Thus, very few of these cases fit the classic mutual combat model of a fight between two males. This is not to say that such crimes where a gun-using combatant might claim that his use was defensive are rare, but rather that few of them are in this sample.

As Kleck notes in his rebuttal, "We addressed this latter possibility in our article and showed that it could not account for more than a small fraction (probably less than a tenth) of the incidents we counted as DGUs.<18> H does not rebut that evidence."

Another problem with self-reporting is that gun owners see a DGU as a heroic incident, leading to a tendency to over-report.
As Kleck & Gertz point out, most of their respondents who reported a DGU had, as a result, to cop to some form of unlawful behavior in so doing, usually carrying concealed without a permit (which were markedly more rare in 1992 than they are now), which hardly seems "socially desirable." Moreover, as Kleck & Gertz also point out, if so many of their respondents were engaged in "false portrayals of heroism," remarkably few of them provided tales of derring-do, reporting the assailant had a firearm in only 17.9% of cases, and was completely unarmed in 51.9% of cases. Similarly, when asked how likely they considered the possibility that someone would have died had they not used a firearm for protection (in effect, whether they saved their own or someone else's life), the combined number of respondents who replied "probably" or "almost certainly" came in at slightly less than 30%. That seems remarkably low for manufactured tales of heroism; surely we consider it more "socially desirable" and (thus) heroic to use a firearm to protect life than to protect a wallet or a VCR.

The pollsters asked to speak to male heads of households, deliberately excluding females in the home. <...> They also oversampled the south and midwest.
You're overstating a passage from Hemenway's piece:
Interviewers do not appear to have questioned a random individual at a given telephone number, but rather asked to speak to the male head of the household. <17> If that man was not at home, the caller interviewed the adult who answered the phone. <18> Although this approach is sometimes used in telephone surveys to reduce expense, it does not yield a representative sample of the population.

First off, note the phrase "do not appear." Why the vagueness? Either Hemenway doesn't actually know what the interviewers asked, or he's trying to make it sound like Kleck & Gertz attempted to obfuscate the fact they oversampled males (which they didn't, see below).
Second, "females in the home" (at least, those over 18, as under-18s were excluded) were not excluded. Undersampled, yes, but you can't weight the data if you don't have females in the responses in the first place.
Third, yes, Kleck & Gertz oversampled for males and oversampled the South and West (note: the West, not the Mid-West). They say so themselves in the original study, and explain why:
To gain a larger raw number of sample DGU cases, we oversampled in the south and west regions, where previous surveys have indicated gun ownership is higher. <45> We also oversampled within contacted households for males, who are more likely to own guns and to be victims of crimes in which victims might use guns defensively. <46> Data were later weighted to adjust for oversampling.

Oversampling is nothing unusual in surveys (Hemenway's insinuation that it is notwithstanding), and is commonly done to develop a more accurate picture of a specific sub-group of the sample. For example, presidential polls conducted in early 2008 routinely oversampled African-Americans to get a better picture of how they felt about Barack Obama. In the case of the Kleck-Gertz study, they deliberately oversampled the sub-groups more likely to have experienced a DGU to gain more data about the circumstances of DGUs, instead of winding up with a large pile of non-DGU responses from which no further information could be gleaned. None of this is an issue provided you weight the data to compensate for oversampling.

Hemenway complains that "the authors do not explain their weighting technique" but in this instance, it's not all that arcane because the survey is fairly straightforward in nature. Weighting can get very tricky in longitudinal studies, in which multiple surveys are conducted in an effort to track changes--particularly in specific sub-groups of the sample--but the Kleck-Gertz survey is a "snapshot" (i.e. a recording of a single moment in time).
They ignored the statistical impact of non-respondents.
Why would non-respondents be skewed one way or another? Kleck & Gertz describe the line of questioning thus:
Each interview began with a few general "throat-clearing" questions about problems facing the R's community and crime. The interviewers then asked the following question: "Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard."
If a respondent answered "no" to that question, that was, for all practical purposes, it: the response was counted as "no DGU," whether or not the respondent subsequently went on to complete the full list of questions (minus "those pertaining to details of the DGUs"). As Kleck and Gertz (repeatedly) point out, it was significantly easier to give a response that would not be counted as a DGU than to give one that would.

So again, why would non-responses have been disproportionately likely to have been non-DGUs? This is a question that demands an answer before it can even be accepted that non-responses even had a statistical impact. You'd have to assume that the interviewers stated in their opening patter, even before the "throat-clearing" questions, that the purpose of the survey was to collect info on DGUs, thereby encouraging non-responses from persons who hadn't experienced one; there would, however, be a few problems with such an assumption.
First, there's no evidence for it. And by "evidence," I mean evidence, not some "it stands to reason that they must have" circular argument.
Second, 95.5% (4,755 out of 4,977) of the raw (i.e. unweighted) responses were counted as "no DGU." If the interviewers' wording had been intended to actively discourage non-DGU respondents, why would the raw sample data end up containing over 95% "non-DGU" responses?

So, to conclude, the aspersions you cast on Kleck & Gertz's survey are based to a large extent on circular arguments and outright fabrication. If the flaws in Kleck & Gertz's work were really all that glaring, why is Hemenway (who has a pretty obvious anti-gun agenda) one of the few people to point them out? Why did Marvin Wolfgang (described by the British Journal of Criminology as "the most influential criminologist in the English-speaking world") in his piece "Tribute to a View I Have Opposed" (originally published in the Fall 1995 issue of the Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology, reprinted here: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Wolfgang1.html ) state:
I am as strong a gun-control advocate as can be found among the criminologists in this country. If I were Mustapha Mond of Brave New World, I would eliminate all guns from the civilian population and maybe even from the police. I hate guns--ugly, nasty instruments designed to kill people.

<...>

What troubles me is the article by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz. The reason I am troubled is that they have provided an almost clear-cut case of methodologically sound research in support of something I have theoretically opposed for years, namely, the use of a gun in defense against a criminal perpetrator. Maybe Franklin Zimring and Philip Cook can help me find fault with the Kleck and Gertz research, but for now, I have to admit my admiration for the care and caution expressed in this article and this research.

Can it be true that about two million instances occur each year in which a gun was used as a defensive measure against crime? It is hard to believe. Yet, it is hard to challenge the data collected. We do not have contrary evidence.

<...>

The Kleck and Gertz study impresses me for the caution the authors exercise and the elaborate nuances they examine methodologically. I do not like their conclusions that having a gun can be useful, but I cannot fault their methodology. They have tried earnestly to meet all objections in advance and have done exceedingly well.

It seems exceedingly hard to credit that a respected criminologist, and one with an intense dislike of firearms to boot, would not only fail to pick out such glaring flaws in Kleck & Gertz's work, but actively praise them for the soundness of their methodology.
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lawodevolution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-10-11 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
11. Unrec. No one harmed
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #11
54. Everybody be quiet, this poster doesn't want to talk about incidents where people aren't hurt
even if a crime was committed.

:eyes:
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-11-11 02:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. Just a reminder, jpak.
Those people that you insist upon calling "morans" beat the stuffings out of us in Nov 2010. Not only did we Democrats loose the House and almost the Senate, but we lost a bunch of state legislatures too. And the NRA gained control over half the U.S. congress. What does that say about us if a bunch of "morans" can beat us so badly?
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Tuesday Afternoon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #22
29. +1
this issue is costing us. will we ever learn?
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YllwFvr Donating Member (757 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-12-11 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
27. Did it say if it was a summary or misdemeanor?
DC can be both. Neither is a prohibiting offense by itself, and they may not revoke his permit for it. That would be up to the MontCo authorities. Ive heard the sheriff is a hard guy when it comes to CCW though.

Then again is he going to nail a politician from his area? It will be interesting to say the least.
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