Gun control and Iraq

[Withergyld]

I haven't been on-line for a few months. I may not be able to reply again to this topic for a few days. I am currently in Iraq. I wanted to make a few observations on what I have personally experienced.
I am in a small Military camp in Southern Iraq. There are 1500 to 2000 soldiers living in the camp. Every Soldier is REQUIRED to carry their weapon at all times. They are also required to carry ammunition with their weapons at all times. No one has been accidentally shot. There have been no armed robberies. As far as I can tell there is little if any crime of any type.
These are my personal observations. I will check back when I can, but my Internet time is EXTREMELY limited.

[StClone]

1. So you are saying

Once you are in hell sins/crimes no longer occur?

[Withergyld]

2. No,

Pretty much every one here is armed all the time and there is zero crime. I was trying to illustrate that a high rate of firearm possession does not equate with a high crime rate.

[Young Socialist]

4. an armed society is a polite society. n/t

[louis-t]

3. Yes, let's all be REQUIRED to carry weapons in this country.

Let's all live behind barbed wire, armed to the teeth and shooting anything that moves. Yes, that's a great way to live! Ted Nugent thinks so. Charlton Heston thinks so. R-i-g-h-t, no one EVER gets accidently shot. Every armed robbery would be thwarted if only EVERYONE was armed. In fact, no criminal would DARE draw a weapon if everyone was armed. HEY, WITHERGYLD, as armed to the teeth as you are over there, people are STILL SHOOTING AT YOU! There have been numerous cases of 'friendly fire' and accidental shooting deaths in Iraq. You must be reading the 'sanitized' casualty reports. I'm sorry you're stuck in that toilet of a country fighting for the financial freedom and misguided delusions of a select few but, in case you forgot, back here at home people get shot accidently all the time. About 40% of all police officers killed in the line of duty are killed with their own weapons. There have been cases in the midwest recently where officers in plainclothes or off-duty were killed as they drew their weapon. Yes, there have been cases where people have defended themselves using a firearm, but they are a lot more rare than the NRA Weekly would have you believe. I will defend your right to carry a weapon if that makes you feel safe, but I don't think absolute public armament makes criminals cower in fear. As you are witnessing in your current situation, desperate people do desperate things. Good luck and keep your head down.

[Young Socialist]

5. I think WITHERGYLD has a better idea of what's going on

over there than you do, since he's actually there. Just maybe our troops are doing a sterling job there and maybe only 5% of the country is in revolt. maybe we're being fed only bad/negative news here because good news doesn't make as good/sensational a headline.

[louis-t]

6. I see, and why is it then that

135,000+ troops plus 50,000 Iraqi policemen can't stabilize 5% of the country? Why is it that 70% of the Iraqi population now want us out? Why is it that now a country who has prided itself on human rights finds itself investigating its own troops for violating human rights. Why is it that B*sh supporters now say "well, it's a tough situation over there, let's give shrubbie another chance"? He got us into that situation! Why is it that we are now backing off in Fallujah? WITHERGYLD isn't the only soldier with an opinion. He's also trained to believe whatever his commanders tell him. Listen to returning soldiers. I think the troops ARE doing a sterling job for the most part. Putting their lives on the line on the word of a lying nitwit wannabe chickenhawk bully with delusions of grandeur. WITHERGYLD's point was that arming EVERYONE doesn't create more crime. My response was that it doesn't make us any safer either, and by sheer numbers increases the chances of accidental shootings and makes an armed person more of a target. I was not questioning the job our troops are doing. They should never have been sent there in the first place.

[Township75]

7. So let's all...

just turn in and melt down every gun, whether it be privately owned or in use by the police or military.

Then there will be no guns and everyone will be safe, and we can skip around in fields of flowers, singing and twirling in bright sunny fields with birds chirping and everyone loving each other.

It's those fucking guns!!! If we just get rid of them, nothing will go wrong.

[MrSandman]

8. Now you are cathching on...n/t

[iverglas]

9. perhaps

you would just take a moment and explain your 'name' for the assembled masses?

.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

11. perhaps

you would just take a moment and say something coherent?

.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Young Socialist]

13. you first.

[iverglas]

14. no thank you, alphonse

My name does not lay claim to a political ideology that I obviously believe in no part of.

I'm wondering why you would lay claim, in your name, to a political ideology that you obviously believe in no part of.

If you're looking for anything else to explain, you could tell me your theory about what your buttinsky colleague's problem might be. I have no idea, and he doesn't seem anxious to explain for himself.

.

[-..__...]

15. The name game, again.

The last time your over active imagination got the better of you it was about "Bertha Venation" (I forget the exact details, but it was pretty sad and accusatory).

Ever hear of the saying "Once bitten, twice shy"?

[iverglas]

18. different strokes

Yes sir, we all now know that "Bertha Venation" is the name of, as I recall it, a drag queen in some cult flick I haven't seen.

Um ... big deal.

It is still a riff on the name of that other cult flick, "Birth of a Nation". And ya know something? I still don't find it funny. I kinda think that there are probably some African Americans who also wouldn't find it funny. There's black humour (forgive the unintended and unavoidable double entendre), and then there's gross insensitivity. One oppressed group making something hurtful to another oppressed group into a joke kinda strikes me as one of those things.

Ever hear of the saying "Once bitten, twice shy"?

Perhaps you've heard how one person's poison is another person's meat. Some people apparently find it funny to give themselves names that make light of things done to oppress other people. I just don't. Tomayto, tomahto, as has been said here. I'm perfectly capable of defending my objections to what I regard as offensive "humour", but there is often little point in doing so.

Now of course the situation here has nothing to do with any of that at all, unless there is a drag queen in a cult flick somewhere called "Young Socialist" maybe. There was indeed once an organization called Young Socialists, the kiddie wing of the Trotskyist League for Socialist Action/Ligue socialiste ouvrière in Canada, and its international affiliates; these days, they go by "International Socialists" or some variant thereof. I doubt that our Young Socialist even knows that. No, what we have here is simply someone who styles him/herself "Young Socialist" and then says:

Just maybe our troops are doing a sterling job there and maybe only 5% of the country is in revolt. maybe we're being fed only bad/negative news here because good news doesn't make as good/sensational a headline.

I've really never met a socialist, young or otherwise, who thinks that US troops are doing a "sterling job" in Iraq. I've really never met a socialist, young or otherwise, who thinks that the USAmerican media are feeding the USAmerican public "only bad/negative news" about US activities in Iraq. So I'm quite naturally curious as to what the explanation for this seemingly strange dissonance between moniker and thinking might be.

Of course, our Young Socialist hasn't actually said that s/he thinks that US troops are doing a sterling job, or the US media feed their public only bad/negative news about US activities in Iraq. S/he has merely mused that these might be the case.

Well, I've never met a socialist, young or otherwise, who would even muse those to be the case ... or who would be so seemingly reluctant to just come out and say what s/he thinks.

And I'm just naturally so curious about so many things. Lucky I'm not a cat, 'cause I'd have used up my nine lives by now with all that unsatisfied curiosity.

.

[Bertha Venation]

41. "I still don't find it funny."

Hi, Iverglas.

That's your prerogative.

No one here at DU (except for you) or anywhere else I have used this as my name has ever accused me of being racist, insensitive, or of trying to hurt anyone.

I don't know if anyone feels bad about my nickname, but they've never made it known.

end off-topic post

[iverglas]

43. my goodness

"I still don't find it funny."
Hi, Iverglas.
That's your prerogative.

And for some reason you thought I needed you to tell me this?

I don't know if anyone feels bad about my nickname, but they've never made it known.

That's just swell.


What I do find entertaining is that some evidently illiterate sniveller (no names, mind, since I have no idea who) complained to the mods that my addressing a white man as "my dear boy", a phrase known to and used by Winston Churchill, Oscar Wilde and George Washington Carver, was somehow "racist" (btw, that deletion has been termed an error), and yet no one at all has (or, as you say, has made it known that s/he has) any qualms about birth-of-a-nation. (There are one or two here who will know of whom I speak when I puzzle about the silence, one of whom, as I recall, has chided me for calling a spade a spade, and one of whom, perhaps the same, referred to a woman victim of violent sexual assault as a "gal".) Me, I'd wonder how many people even get birth-of-a-nation, or got it in the source of its original punny manifestation, if they've heard of it.

Of course, that wasn't as entertaining as when my allusion to the anti-racist anecdote told by Lenny Bruce or Redd Foxx or whoever it was -- when the Lone Ranger sees all the Native Americans coming over the hill and says "We're surrounded, Tonto!" and Tonto replies with the line I used: "Who 'we', white man?" -- was deleted as racist. That was hugely entertaining.

So I'm easiliy entertained. You, I presume, are bored, to have gone searching for your name, or mine, or whatever, and dragging up a long-dead thread to state the obvious.

But heck, anytime you want to tell me what my prerogatives (some here might even say "rights") are, don't hesitate.

[Bertha Venation]

44. Have a nice day, Iverglas.

[el_gato]

45. I like your name bertha

but then I don't go around looking to be offended all the time.

[Withergyld]

37. I am not a soldier

I am here as an Army Contractor. I am here to support those that defend our freedom (the soldiers) I am working here as a plumber. I keep the facilities going so that the soldiers can have flushing toilets and a hot shower at the end of the day. I can leave any time I want. As a contractor I am not allowed to carry weapons. I work with the local Iraqi's daily. I have not been shot at or attacked in any way. I get information direct from the source. I don't read reports, I talk to the soldiers while in line at the D-Fac (dining facility) or while eating. It is amazing what information you can learn listening while waiting in line with a bunch of soldiers. I also talk a bit with the gate guards. Most of the local Iraqis are happy with the US presence here. They are providing information to the US military on the outsiders that are coming into the area and trying (unsuccessfully) to incite the locals against the US military.

[CO Liberal]

16. However...

...one of the big reasons given for RKBA in this country is the ability to overthrow tyrants. So will the country as awash with guns and ammo as you maintain it is, why was Saddan Hussein able to retain power for so long???

:shrug"

[Township75]

17. A much better question is...

why is that anti gunners always claim reject the claim that the 2nd amendment keeps an opressive government in check because firearms wouldn't do anything against the US military.

They seem to be doing quite a bit against the US military in Iraq.

[CO Liberal]

19. But The Argument That "Guns Keep Us Free"...

...was proven to be bullshit in Iraq.

[natasha1]

20. Guns themselves do not guarantee freedom...

Nor are they the only means to achieve it.

Nonetheless, when it becomes necessary to repel force with force, guns are a useful, sometimes necessary tool to do so.

Nat

[CO Liberal]

21. But They're Not Fool-Proof

As Iraq clearly demonstrates.

[iverglas]

22. tsk, CO

Obviously those Iraqis didn't *want* to be free. They had all those guns, and did nothing.

Which leads one to ask what the US is doing there, of course ...

.

[CO Liberal]

23. A Lot Of Us Have Been Asking That Question, Iverglas

:-)

[Columbia]

25. Quite the expert on Iraqi psychology aren't you?

How many Iraqis have you talked to?

[iverglas]

26. well, funny you should ask

And I'm surprised that I haven't mentioned it before. Maybe I have.

I started working with Iraqis opposed to Saddam Hussein in about 1980. I talked to quite a lot of them over the next decade and a half. In fact, I devoted a decent chunk of my time to helping them. I also, of course, became quite conversant with the ways of the Iraqi government. I wonder how many here could have found Iraq on a map back then ...

Gosh, perhaps it wasn't FUCKING OBVIOUS that my previous comment was sarcasm.

.

[OpSomBlood]

27. "I want to speak to the manager."

"I am the manager."

[TX-RAT]

28. Thats called the quart of blood technique OP

No wonder IVER doesn't need a gun.'\"ouch"

[iverglas]

29. I asked google

... but it seems it's "secret". ;) Something to do with Eddie Murphy? Or a woman? Blood-letting with bare hands ... yup, they'll always find a way to do it even if they don't have guns!

.

[TX-RAT]

30. Eddie Murphy in Trading Places

Have you considered ultimate fighting, you'll take them hands down and never break a nail.

[iverglas]

31. heh

I keep the nails very short, lest I get carpal tunnel syndrome from all the typing that leaves some of our colleagues in such wonderment.

Now is the time for all good women to come to the aid of their party. Now is the time for all good women to come to the aid of their party. Now is the time for all good women to come to the aid of their party.

Last time I checked, it was 80 words per minute or some such. The co-vivant had to use my computer the other day when his cable connection crapped out, and came back shaking his head about how anybody could use a keyboard when the letters had been completely worn off ...

.

[TX-RAT]

32. All those sparks coming off the keyboard gotta be a fire hazard

[Columbia]

33. It is quite serious business over there

Nothing to be joking about as you seem to enjoy so much.

[iverglas]

38. "seem"

It is quite serious business over there
Nothing to be joking about as you seem to enjoy so much.

I "seem" ... "to a visually impaired person in a room full of hearing impaired people", if I may paraphrase someone named Paul O'Neill out of context.

What is this "it" that I "seem" to enjoy joking about, and that is nothing to be joking about? Vague pronouns and sentence fragments do come in handy sometimes, don't they?

Obviously, my description of my long commitment to the cause of people who actually suffered under Sadam Hussein (and under the embargo -- one of my friends' infant nephews died for lack of medical care some time after GWI), and activities on their behalf, was one big joke. Either that, or you've just covered your ears and gone wah wah in response to my answer to your question, eh?

.

[Township75]

24. The arguement that guns won't stop the government...

was and still is being proven to be bullshit.

[LibLabUK]

34. Hmm...Will the "American Patriotic Revolution" be televised?

"They seem to be doing quite a bit against the US military in Iraq."

I was under the impression that it was more through the use of roadside bombs and rocket-propelled grenades that the Iraqi resistance (or insurgents/terrorists/freedom-fighters/hangers-on, whatever they really are) is having an effect on the coalition forces?

I would imagine that RPGs are quite difficult to get hold of legally in the US, does anyone argue for the right to possess them?

The roadside bombs are improvised, probably the same fertiliser/fuel mix that the IRA et al use regularly.. are the American Patriots (whose blood must water the tree of liberty) ready and able to utilise these rather indescriminate weapons?

Infact if you look at the IRA (the current incarnations, post-'68), their guns had almost no effect on the British government, they had to resort to the wholesale killing of civilians (more than 3,000 innnocents died for that "cause") to force any kind of dialogue.

Are the American Patriots ready for that scenario?

Is there an American Patriot Council (governing body, leadership, committee, etc etc) that decides when there is enough "tyranny" to warrant a revolution?

What happens if the APC decides that there is, but the majority of the populace of the US doesn't agree?

Would only soldiers be targeted by the APs, or would you include federal employees as well? Would it be open season on the postman?

What about collaborators, sympathisers and their families?

Is there a agreed upon result to the APs revolution... how much freedom would they settle for, are they anarchists, minarchists, libertarians, communists (*snicker*), liberals, conservatives, reichwing, fundies?

Sorry, these are just the questions that have built up over time fromn seeing this revolution argument so frequently on other boards.

[MrBenchley]

35. For that matter...

I wonder how many other folks over there in Iraq think they're enjoying good times because they get to lug a weapon around in public all day?

Meanwhile, it's worth noting that the Constitution the puppet government adopted has the sort of gun control the GOP is fighting tooth and nail HERE...

"Article 17 
It shall not be permitted to possess, bear, buy, or sell arms except on licensure issued in accordance with the law."

http://www.oefre.unibe.ch/law/icl/iz00000_.html

[natasha1]

39. Hardly suprising...

Meanwhile, it's worth noting that the Constitution the puppet government adopted has the sort of gun control the GOP is fighting tooth and nail HERE...

Hardly suprising - in Iraq they are working dilligently to subjugate the people - no wonder they are so eager to disarm them!

And should they every start that crap over here - you'll know what's on the horizon!

Nat

[Withergyld]

36. Typical IED's

A typical IED (improvised explosive device) is a mortar or artillery shell concealed on the side of the road and command detonated when a convoy drives by. They have also been using 120mm rockets and RPGs to attack the convoys. I went to a "force protection" briefing yesterday. At the end of the briefing we saw a short video from a dash cam of a HUMVEE that was attatcked with and IED. No one was hurt, but it did not look like much fun. There were several large (12") chunks of asphalt thrown onto the hood of the HUMVEE from the blast.
The rebel/terrorist groups are mostly attacking/harrasing the supply lines in my area. This is typical resistance type action.

[natasha1]

40. Good questions

While there is little doubt that more powerful tools than simple small arms would be more effective in resisting a tyrannical government, and revolutionaries often avail themselves to them, I do not think there is any cause to suddenly call for the possesion of more powerful weapons in the hands of the people. Likewise, just because more powerful weapons would be more effective, I don't see any cause to label small arms as useless at this time. As technology progresses, it may indeed come to pass that small arms are insufficient to insure the ability to resist, but I do not think that that is the case today.

The rest of your questions, concerning the specifics of how a revolution might take place, are unknowable at this time, and, with any luck, we will never need to find out.

Nat

[slackmaster]

42. Stay safe and get your butt home as soon as possible

Keep your head down and watch your six.