Great picture from Ohio Newspaper.

[FatSlob]

The below picture was taken from the Willoughby News Herald. The photo was taken shortly after a robbery. Note the no guns sign on the door.



Interestingly, the business with the following sign has not been robbed.

[boobooday]

1. I bet there were also some other businesses that WEREN'T robbed

That didn't have employees with concealed weapons.

I am against concealed weapons, because I believe that only paranoid people walk around with concealed weapons, and they are more likely to shoot people out of paranoia than to "save the day." I believe statistics would back me up on this one.

For example, I worked in a nursing home with a 300-lb, 63-year-old-nurse who was convinced that she was going to be raped or sexually assaulted one day, in our little town of 2,000 people. So she walked around with a gun in her purse, and with her finger on the trigger when she was walking through the supermarket parking lot.

I kept waiting to hear about how some poor grocery bagger got shot for startling her.

It's about the fear. That's the way they like it. If we weren't afraid of each other, we might just get together and whup some corporate looter ass.

I think concealed handguns are a bad idea.

http://www.wgoeshome.com

[FatSlob]

2. OK, I can dig what you write.

Until I was educated in the matter, I felt the same way. Learning is life-long. I started as anti-ccw, then slowly came around to neutral as I did a research paper for college. I then became very PRO-CCW when one of my clients sent an armed robber running. I ask you to look at what you wrote though, everything was about feelings. Little was facts. Note that 46 states have CCW in some way or another. Do you feel unsafe everytime you travel? Do you read of CCWers shooting it out?

on edit: I've looked around and have been unable to find any information that suggests that CCW laws have a negative impact on society.

[CO Liberal]

38. You Call it "Educated In The Matter"....

...others may consider it brainwashing.

[DoverFrank]

3. How do you feel about the police?

Would you prefer they were unarmed as in Great Britian? (I think some of their cops are armed but not the majority) I dont know what troubles they have if any, but it would be interesting to compare accidents and wrongful shootings etc. between the US and UK by the police.

I dont necessarily think the police should be unarmed but it would interesting to make the comparison.

[pocket]

4. She obviously didn't take a CCW course

"So she walked around with a gun in her purse, and with her finger on the trigger"

That's a lack of training there.

[-..__...]

6. I wonder if she even had a permit?

The author of the post didn't state if she did or not.

[Wickerman]

16. And which standard of training would you support?

It varies state by state - froma few hours to multiple days. How much is enough - no one can seem to agree. Doesn't make me feel incredibly safe when folks go out to get guns and have minimal training. Not all states even have a range requirement.

[pocket]

17. AZ standard seems fine to me

any class that teaches this lady to keep her finger off the trigger is a good start. Notice that she is indeterred by by the illegality of her actions, btw.

[Wickerman]

27. rhetorical question

to point out he lack of standardization in rules and that some places don't even teach hands on gun training.

[iverglas]

20. how about insurance?

One may not drive a motor vehicle (well, up here, anyway) without liability insurance, because of the relatively high risk of damage-causing events and the potentially very high cost of those events to third parties.

If one is a poor insurance risk -- not properly trained, inexperienced, or with a bad track record -- one is going to have a hard time finding an insurer. If one can't, one will then be unable to legally operate a motor vehicle, and to register and license one's vehicle.

And violations of highway traffic rules lead to higher insurance rates, providing an incentive not to violate the rules. (We can't use the law to provide an equally strong incentive, since we really aren't going to start locking people up for making dangerous turns.)

Wouldn't that be a wise requirement for people licensed to carry concealed firearms? People doing that are operating a thing in public, just as drivers are operating things in public, that could cause serious harm or damage to third parties. But given how very very rare we are told it is for such persons to misuse their firearms in a way that results in damage, coverage shouldn't be too expensive.

Firearms carriers would have a much easier time of it than car drivers when it comes to infractions that don't result in damage, of course. It's easy to spot a speeder. Not so easy to spot somebody carrying a firearm where it is forbidden to carry it, just f'r instance.

[-..__...]

22. Heading down this road again...are we?

Same ol' useless talking points.

The connection between autos/firearms, licenses/CCW permits never has, and never will be a valid or relevant argument.

"... and to register and license one's vehicle".

And what are suggesting by that comment?

[iverglas]

25. pa-ra-noi-a?

"... and to register and license one's vehicle".
And what are suggesting by that comment?

What are *I* suggesting by that comment?

That people who are licensed to do things that affect the public commonly have to meet certain requirements in order to obtain the licence. Insurance is one of the common requirements. Heck, the woman who runs the chip wagon where I stopped for poutine on Saturday pays $1200 in insurance for the summer season of selling hamburgers and hot dogs and the like to passers-by. If she didn't, she wouldn't get a licence to sell food to the public.

In the case of licences to do something, the insurance could be on the thing it's done with or the operator. For instance, doctors and dentists don't insure their instruments, they insure themselves. Frankly, I think it would be entirely reasonable for drivers rather than vehicles to be insured, and I'm not really sure why it's the other way around.

Since my post was in the context of the requirements for obtaining a concealed firearms carrying licence, and I gave no indication that I was talking about the price of tea in China or whatever else you might be inferring/implying that I was talking about, I can't imagine what has made you all suspicious and hostile. Not erecting a straw person to shoot at, were you?

Funny how when you quoted me you quoted only the secondary aspect of what I was saying, and not the primary:

If one is a poor insurance risk -- not properly trained, inexperienced, or with a bad track record -- one is going to have a hard time finding an insurer. If one can't, one will then be unable to legally operate a motor vehicle, and to register and license one's vehicle.

I mentioned registering and licensing because, in the case of motor vehicles, the insurance follows the vehicle.

I don't see anything in what I wrote that could have been interpreted as my saying that insurance for carrying a concealed firearm would follow the firearm (thus requiring registration). Do you? Care to share?

I won't be holding my breath.

The connection between autos/firearms, licenses/CCW permits never has, and never will be a valid or relevant argument.

Well ta da, blah blah, there we have it. Someone whose name I didn't notice has spoken.

The moon is made of green cheese. There are faeries at the bottom of my garden. No evidence or argument needed. Sayin' it makes it so, right?

Next time you have nothing to say, maybe you'd just say nothing. If you actually have something to say, I'll be all ears.

Mmm, poutine:



With lots o' vinegar, of course.

[FatSlob]

31. I think passing the NRA Basic Pistol Course is sufficient.

8 Classroom hours, two range hours.

[slackmaster]

33. I'd add coursework specific to state and local laws

Because they vary so much I think it's important that people who are going to be licensed to carry a gun in public demonstrate knowledge of all applicable laws.

The NRA Basic Pistol course is well written. I have the Instructor's Guides for that one and Basic Rifle. If only the NRA stuck with firearms technology, safety, hunter education, and practical defensive shooting it would be a nice organization.

[Lazpash]

40. With that silly logic...

People who wear seatbelts are "paranoid".

I believe only paranoid people "drive around" wearing seatbelts and THEY are the people most likely to get into accidents. I believe statistics would "back me up" on this one.

I mean, if they WEREN'T paranoid, why would they wear that uncomfortable thing all the time? They MUST be "looking" for a good accident to get into!

My little sister would be DEAD today IF she HAD been wearing a seatbelt when she lost control of her vehicle (A REAL accident ;) She would have been held in place by the seatbelt instead of being thrown clear of the drivers side as it careened into a tree that collapsed the driver's seat area.)

I think seatbelts are a BAD idea!

<roll eyes>

[frylock]

5. i have a rock that protects me from tiger attacks..

so far, I haven't been attacked yet.

[-..__...]

7. Cool...

How many tigers are in your neck of the woods?

At least if you ever decide to take a vacation to a game preserve in India or Borneo, you'll be well prepared and armed.

[LibLabUK]

8. Hehe...

The guides in some of the tiger reserves in india wear masks on the backs of their heads. Apparently the tigers are more likely to attack from the rear so wearing a face on the back the head confuses the tigers just enough that they don't attack the guides.

It looks quite comical, but I'm willing to trust the guides on this.

[DonP]

21. Now that is a great bit of "useless" information

I love finding out about odd things like that.

That's like one of my friends making fun of me when I gave her "Bear bells" to wear on her ankle when she went hiking out West in the mountains.

Then she came back and thanked me for the bells and said the guide was impressed that she had her own. (The sound lets Grizzlies know you are in the area)

But I guess in India I'd want one of those tiger deterring rocks too, preferably in a 500 Nitro express caliber, side by side.

Thank you for the mask story.

[iverglas]

24. you're begging for the punch line, right?

;)

http://www.jokesmagazine.com/managearticle.asp?c=670&a=7

In Alaska's National Forests, a tourists guide was giving a talk to a group of tourists about hiking in grizzly bear territory: "Most bear encounters occur when hikers, being extra quiet along the trails in hopes of viewing wildlife, accidentally stumble into bears. The resulting suprise can be catastrophic." To avoid this, he suggested that each hiker wear tiny bells on their clothing to warn the bears of their presence. "Also," he said further, "be especially cautious when you see signs of bears in the area, especially when you see bear droppings."

One tourist asked, "How do you identify bear droppings?"

"Oh that's easy," the guide explained, "its the ones with all the tiny bells in them!"

Hey, it's Tuesday! But damn, I can't find the version of that joke that I knew from before, which did have a gun in it somewhere ...

Ah, but here's the alternative punch line:

http://www.evh.k12.nf.ca/epower/Joke%20Book/Done/Hunting%20Joke1.doc

Bear bells provide an element of safety for hikers in grizzly country. The tricky part is getting them on the bears.

... and yet another:

In light of the rising frequency of human/grizzly bear conflicts, the Montana Department of Fish and Game is advising hikers, hunters, and fishermen to take extra precautions, and keep alert of bears while in the field.
We advise that outdoorsmen wear noisy little bells on their clothing so as not to startle bears that aren't expecting them. We also advise outdoorsmen to carry pepper spray with them in case of a encounter with a bear.
It is also a good idea to watch out for fresh signs of bear activity. Outdoorsmen should recognize the difference between black bear and grizzly bear scat:
Black bear scat is smaller and contains lots of berries and squirrel fur.
Grizzly bear scat is larger, has little bells in it, and smells like pepper.

Also valid for the Alaska Dept of Fish and Game, apparently.

[Wickerman]

28. man, wouldn't that be sweet

go into the woods to get away from it all, to commune with nature, see some wildlife (with no intention to kill it - concept) and have half a dozen city slickers wearing cowbells so that the bears won't come near them - and the birds, and the squirrels and the bunnies and the well, you get he point. nothing like a nice peaceful hike in the great out doors. Why not just carry a boombox?

[iverglas]

9. special delivery for you

http://users.rcn.com/rostmd/winace/pics/



"When someone writes that a demonically possessed squirrel that was running amok in their garden and chewing up the Begonias left after they prayed, post this. Similarly, it can be used in reply to glowing testimonials on the effectiveness of magnetic bracelets, homeopathic treatments, and other quackery."

... concealed carry licences ...

[RoeBear]

10. Nice of you to share your...

...stash of funny pictures.

[iverglas]

13. not mine own

That's why I usually include the url, as requested by the site owner who makes the pix available (it's in that post ... hoc ergo propter ho-ho-hoc ... ).

Of course, I'd prefer one that said

Canada Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc

(no "Office" up here on "Canada Post"), but you can't have everything.

But hey, yr welcome.

[RoeBear]

15. That brings up something that I really don't like about Canada...

...those darn postal codes.

U.S zip codes roll off the toungue and are easy to memorize.

Canadian ones are X23QY5 and three eighths or some such nonsense.

[iverglas]

18. well, at least they're not Brit

Canada introduced postal codes after the US, and benefited from its experience.

US postal codes are too non-specific to be useful in many cases. That's why the 5-digit numbers have been expanded by adding 4 more digits, making for a much harder to remember 9-digit number.

The UK was already using a number/letter combo system. But it's irregular --

http://www.fact-index.com/p/po/postcode.html

UK postal codes are known as postcodes. They are alphanumeric. The format of UK postcodes is generally:

LD DLL, LLD DLL, LDD DLL, or LLDD DLL

where L signifies a letter and D a digit. It is a hierarchical system, working from left to right - the first letter or pair of letters represents the area, the following digit or digits represent the district within that area, and so on.

-- codes have different total number/letter counts and different number/letter configurations. Not logical, at least to the outsider. They seem to get along with it quite well.

Ours up here are strictly logical. They start at "A" on the east coast, and move to ... hmm, my postal code book seems to be in a box somewhere, but I think the letters go to the west coast and then north. The number/letter combo is actually easier to remember than a series of numbers, particularly 9 numbers. For instance, CBC radio's postal code in Toronto is M5W 1E6, long ago made into "make 5 weiners, I'll eat 6" by Arthur Black, the Saturday morning host. Em five double-u, one ee six. I couldn't forget it if I tried.

Anyhow, the gradations are finer --- keeping in mind that Canada's population is 1/9 the pop of the US, so you'd have to add another numbers on the end to give you ten times the options. For instance, assume my postal code is X1X 1X1; that's my side of a particular city block. The other side of the block is X1X 1X2. In the US, the 5-digit postal code would come nowhere near that precision.

This is actually important, because postal codes / zipcodes are used for things like census analysis.

For example, here's Charlottetown, PEI, a city with a population of about



Each C1_ segment is then also broken down (or capable of being broken down, in this instance) into everything from 1A1 to 9Z9 -- over 2,000 gradations. The US system provides only 99,999 distinct codes for the entire country in the basic 5-digit system (999,999,999 in the 9-digit of course), where the Cdn system provides 6760 x 2600, or 17,576,000. More than 1 for every 2 people. ;)

Anyhow, nobody else really needs to worry about it, eh? I'd watch out with the criticisms of Cdn postal codes, or you might find someone criticizing US firearms laws.

[FeebMaster]

19. Nine digit numbers are perfectly easy to remember.

No one complains about all those other 10 digit numbers they have to remember to communicate with people. I think Canada should switch to the US zip code system.

[T Town Jake]

26. Well, here's something...

...we can agree on, so let me hasten to do so. I used to work tech support for a cellular company, and the zip code system was very important for determining coverage areas, likely "drop" zones, "blind" spots, etc., etc. It was also important for projections of future coverage, based on population growth, shifts, and so on. Our database also contained data on major Canadian metropolitan areas and their coverage, most of it then in "roam" status for American customers, and it was based upon the Canadian Postal Code System. I gotta say, a person could pinpoint usually down to the corner block in a Canadian city where the coverage began to fade, or "drop" altogether, and where it was as close to "guaranteed" as one could get with cell phone service. Using U.S. zip codes for the United States -which naturally was the vast majority of the time - was much more difficult, and often only marginally accurate. So I'm with you on this one: I think the U.S. would be better served by an Alpha-Numeric postal code system along the lines of the Canadian model.

[RoeBear]

29. Oh come on...

"I'd watch out with the criticisms of Cdn postal codes, or you might find someone criticizing US firearms laws."

...that'll never happen. :eyes:

[LibLabUK]

32. UK postcodes..

They're really not that bad :)

In the US or Canada can you send a letter to someone using just their house number and their postal code/zip code?

My postcode refers to my house and two or three either side of it. They're really that specific.

[iverglas]

34. addresses

As far as I can tell, the post office doesn't pay much attention to what's on an envelope, so it wouldn't matter what you put on it. ;)

(Hey, I'll bet that's something else a USAm'n and a Cdn can agree on. The Brit mail is much better, of course.)

House number and postal code? You mean number+street name, and leave out the city and province? Yeah, it would get there no problem. (Me, I'm old enough to know when local mail was addressed "123 Maple Street, City", i.e. just "City" instead of the name of the city.) People are more likely to put street address and city and province, though, since nobody actually looks up postal codes they don't know. The specificity of yours is like ours -- my city block consists of about 6 houses, although I may be wrong and my postal code may cover a four-block length of one side of the street, which would be maybe 30 houses. ... Nope, found Canada Post's lookup site, my postal code is just us six's.

The advantage of yours in the UK is that the starting letters identify the location intuitively, whereas our codes are just assigned in order, and you'd have to look it up to know where postal code "P__-___" was, for instance. I don't have a clue.

I have a friend who used to work in a post office in a town in southern Ontario whose postal codes started with "N0N" (N zero N). She figured out that lot of companies apparently had their mailing software programmed to enter "NON-ONO" (no no no) if they don't know the addressee's code, and a lot of mail ended up in southern Ontario that shouldn't have.

By the way, in case anyone wants to make a note, Santa Claus (who lives at the north pole, which is of course in Canada) can be reached at postal code H0H 0H0. Letters will be answered by unionized elves.

[LibLabUK]

36. Post Codes ago-go

"You mean number+street name, and leave out the city and province? Yeah, it would get there no problem."

No I mean..

LibLabUK
22
SE19 1PQ

(this isn't my actual address, apologies to the person who get's the LibLab hatemail).

The mother of a friend of mine would write to him using just the number and postcode... even when she was sending postcards from abroad.. to this day I'm amazed the card from India got here.

[iverglas]

37. ah

Well, logically, it would, since I'm the only number "666" in postal code X1X 1X1 up here in Canuckistan.

(Heh, nothing original once again -- I look up "x1x 1x1" on google to see whether it is a postal code, and find everybody else using it as a sample code too.)

Maybe I'll send myself a letter that way and see whether it gets here. ;)

Sending it from abroad though, I guess the codes are recognizable in India. I suspect that the probably less commonly encountered Canadian codes might get mistaken for Brit codes in that situation. Well, at least they wouldn't get mistaken for Yanks.

[LibLabUK]

39. Well...

I'm pretty sure she put:

My Mate
22
SE19 7PQ
United Kingdom

Which would remove all confusion over international destination.

Next time I travel, West Coast USA in the autumn if all goes to plan, I'm gonna send myself a card using that address and see if it arrives.

[FatSlob]

12. Well then...tell us which one you would rob...

If you are rational, you'd rob the one that bans firearms, as you'd have a lower likelihood of getting shot. (They above hypothetically assumes that you would be hypothetically a criminal!)

[iverglas]

14. If *I* were rational

I'd live someplace where there aren't swarms of people roaming the streets with firearms looking for someplace to rob.

Oh look; I do.

You (as in youse, y'all) probably could too, if you put your minds to it, eh?

[FatSlob]

30. I haven't seen any swarms,

but any big city will have the occasional miscreant or two. BTW, nice dodge. Are you going to answer?

[iverglas]

35. what colour is orange -

- true or false?

If I were rational, I wouldn't be a criminal.

As I understand it, criminals hold up places of business in the US all the time whose owners/staff are, and where there is certainly a very good chance they will be, armed. At least so I gather from reading Guns in the News. A rational criminal wouldn't be taking the chance of getting killed by a cashier with a firearm.

A rational criminal wouldn't be holding up a business when it was full of customers, armed or not.

Somehow I doubt that a would-be robber who is willing to go up against a proprietor who is much more likely to be armed than any customer, and/or to try to rob a business when there are customers milling around, armed or not, is going to put the possibility of customers carrying concealed firearms into that balance and suddenly find the enterprise too risky, when his/her careful assessment of the situation had shown it to be a perfectly reasonable proposition until that factor intervened.

[Township75]

23. How much would you be willing to sell that rock for?

(I can't remember the exact line)

[Township75]

11. A picture is worth a thousand words.

Maybe the criminals couldn't read. Surely, they would have read the sign, realized that they couldn't bring guns on the property and would have left without the whole robbery deal.

[mosin]

41. "No Guns" signs...

are about as effective as "gun control" laws at deterring or controlling criminal behavior.