Question on handgun differences (educating the ignorant)

[midnight armadillo]

This is sort of a followup to: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x68016

I was wondering about the relative merits of different handgun calibers, and reasons for choosing revolvers v. automatics. I don't know anything about guns :dunce: except that a) people seem to make fun of the 9mm caliber even though its widely used, b) The 500 S&W Magnum seems excessive and c) that I don't know what Magnum means. While I'm wondering, what's an ACP round?

Can any of you help clue me in a little? I suppose it depends on the situation you plan on using a handgun in, so what's good for what purpose? :shrug:

[FrontPorchPhilosophr]

1. Firearms Have Their Own "Language"/Acronyms

Magnum means as much as "turbo" used to mean for PC's, i.e. more powerful than last years....

.357 Magnum is .38 Special Bullet in a slightly longer case (more powder, hence more power).

ACP is, I believe, "automatic Colt pistol" and goes back to WWI time frame

500 S&W Magnum is ludicrous for police or security guards, but quite respectable for deer, black bear, or elk. Handgun hunting is increasingly popular. It's more challenging - shorter barrels mean you have to get closer to the target - which means a more challenging "stalk".

The 9mm parabellum ("for war" in Latin) was the standard European pistol caliber. NATO adopted the 7.62 x 51mm or .308 NATO as the standard rifle round, the US was pressured to adopt the European standard pistol round - the 9mm.

Use of the .45 by US forces goes back to the Moro rebellion in 1898 in the Philippines - US officers were armed with .38 Colt revolvers, and kept getting killed because the gun had insufficient stopping power (the .357 Magnum was invented in the late '40's I believe....)

:hippie:

[slackmaster]

2. Police and prison guards have told me the 9 mm tends to overpenetrate

To go through the target without causing enough damage to stop whatever it is doing that caused it to become a target.

Experts sometimes say to use for self defense only handgun calibers that begin with '4'. My choice is a 1911-A1 pistol in 45 ACP. I think a .357 Magnum is plenty.

[TX-RAT]

5. When i was rookie we were issued model 10 smiths

But i always had a Browning Hi-Power in the glove box. It would shot through body panels, where 38s and 45s wouldn't.

[JayS]

3. The others are better than me on caliber information and...

...different uses so I'll just add my personal take on revolvers vs. semi-automatics. I'm somewhat old-fashioned when it comes to firearms and choose what to buy based on both form and function. Revolvers are old-fashioned so I like them. They are also the easiest to verify that they are unloaded. Open the cylinder and you can easily see the bullets. A semi-automatic can get you killed if you are not careful and they don't unload the way you see on television.

Try and find a rifle range that lets you test various guns (if your state has these type of places) and purchase the caliber you need and what you feel comfortable with. Get your NRA membership and you are ready to go. j/k :)

[TX-RAT]

4. revolvers v. automatics

I'll pick a revolver every time. Do most of my hunting with single action revolvers. A world without semi-autos wouldn't bother me at all.
Interesting conversation with the Chief of Police the other day.
Back when most officers carried revolvers, the average number of shot fired by the officer, in officer involved shootings, were 2.7
Since the shift to semi-auto it's went to 8.
Pick a caliber your comfortable shooting.

[Zynx]

6. Ooooh, gun talk!

1. The 9mm, while widely used, is somewhat undersized relative to a large number of other automatic handguns on the market. With anyting approaching standard ammunition, it's somewhat notorious for a lack of ability to kill or even effectively stop an aggressor. The US military has recently blasted the 9mm for poor work in Iraq. It can certainly kill, but smaller, cheaper calibers are just as deadly, and the more modern, bigger rounds such as the .40 cal Glock are clearly superior for police officers.

2. The .500 S&W, like the .480 Ruger and .454 Casull, is purely a hunting revolver used on big game. It is far too large, heavy, and heavy-kicking to be reasonably used by a person for general self-defense. Hunting revolvers are so powerful compared to other handguns because handguns in general are extremely weak when it comes to killing anything cleanly other than human. In most states, it is flat-out illegal to use any handgun that is either smaller than .357 Magnum and/or has less raw muzzle energy than 1,000 ft-lbs. To give you an idea, .45 automatics and any 9mm auto do not even approach that figure of power. Hence the monster rounds. The longer barrel is meant to increase velocity due to gas expansion dynamics. Consequently, the big revolvers are much longer and more massive than guns used for street crime.

Use of any handgun larger than .44 mag for personal defense is simply overkill. These are designed to stop deer, bears and wild boar, not people. The .44 mag is also an extremely popular hunting caliber. All of the listed handguns are vicious recoilers. The only possible use these have is if you are a good shot and most of the criminals in your neighborhood wear body armor (because these *will* penetrate any body armor not rated for rifle fire and will probably kill or disable the person regardless of penetration due to impact anyway). Otherwise, their listed flaws, plus limited round capacity, make them something of a liability.

3. ACP, as mentioned, is just a name for the cartridge. Magnum is frankly a casually applied term meant to indicate a more powerful round. There are no real statistics on what a magnum is. For example, the .458 Winchester Magnum is a rifle cartridge used for big game hunting in Africa. However, almost everyone agrees that it is drastically *underpowered* for its size.

Pay more attention to the ballistics than what is essentially marketing names.

As far as what is good for what:

-Most standard handguns are, as mentioned, illegal for hunting, not to mention ineffective. You cannot realistically use less than a .357 Magnum for anything, and you are being suicidal if you are using less than a .44 mag for anything that can hurt you (bear, boar, mountain lion). Generally, you should use the biggest handgun you can *reliably control* for hunting.

-Because of the round weight and blast, most automatic pistols do not feature extremely high powered rounds. Exceptions are the Desert Eagle series. However, these are expensive, very large, and exotic.

-For personal protection, it is unnecessary to use a .357 mag, .44 mag, or anything more powerful. Unarmored humans do not deal well with being shot by anything, and big rounds tend to exit the target and hit whatever is beyond-including bystanders. Revolver or auto is not really that important, as its unlikely you are going to be firing more than six shots in any situation. However, you do want a quality gun using standard ammunition that you can accurately shoot out to 25 yards. Stay away from anything smaller than 9mm or a .380. Things like .32 and .25 rarely come in good firearms. The only reason to use a very large handgun round is if you can control it and you want to see someone go splat, or if you regularly need to kill crack maniacs or rampaging circus animals. A .45, btw, is much, much less powerful than a .44 mag, despite being a little "bigger," and is consequently a good personal defense weapon. If you can use a .357 or a .44, go right ahead, as these afford more margin for error and certainly pack more punch, but that's a personal thing. I am recoil insensitive and fairly well off in terms of $$$, so if I had a choice, I'd probably carry a .44 mag Desert Eagle.

-Ammo is important: Generally for hunting, you want a solid, either non-expanding or minimally expanding bullet-or something like the Winchester Partition Gold. For humans, you want something that basically explodes on contact-hollowpoint. This is because to kill animals, you generally need to reach and knock out something vital, whereas humans feel shock and recognize they are bleeding to death. Glazer ammunition is also quite good. Another reason to use rapidly expanding ammo on people is that you don't want an exit wound. That bullet will hit something else before it stops.

-Revolver v. Auto: Personal preference. Just remember that an automatic can be loaded after you eject the clip and must have its slide cleared, and that a single action revolver can and probably will, over its life, misfire. DO NOT store a round under the hammer in a single-action revolver.

[Jack_DeLeon]

7. My favorite cartridges.

Personally the 3 rounds that I like are 9mm, .40cal, and .45cal

If you are going to get a .45 you should get a 1911 style gun. I tried a Glock chambered for the .45 but I didnt like the way it felt, I prefered a 1911.

I have also fired Glocks in 9mm and .40cal, I liked both of them.

I've heard that .40cal is supposed to be as good if not better than .45 in terms of stopping power.

I wouldnt recommend a 9mm for self defense, althought I will probably be buying a 9mm Glock just because its fun to shoot and ammo is cheaper than other calibers.

I currently own a Springfield Armory 1911.
http://www.springfield-armory.com/prod-pstl-1911-ms.shtml

[DonP]

8. The size of your hand plays a role too.

I have smaller hands for a guy and can't really get the right grip on a large double stack magazine. I chose a 1911 .45 ACP with a single stack and a nice smaller Colt Pocketlite in .380.

They both have everythingl safety, slide release all in the same place so switching is easy.

Find an experienced shooter to go with you to a local range and rent several different guns to "test drive" them under safe circumstances.

Learn the 4 safety rules and find one that fits you and that you're comfortable with.

[7th_Sephiroth]

9. i personally carry

a Mark 6 Desert eagle .50ae not for the small handed, its a large semi automatic pistol (you can swap between a 6 inch barrel and a 12 inch barrel, but i have never seen anyone use the 12 inch barrel personally, just once in a stephen king movie)its a relitively heavy handgun, but you can get used to it in a few months of regular use. as for a shotgun, i dont have much experience with them but be carefull how you hold them, i was fireing a 12 ga. and held it slightly wrong and almost broke my arm

[midnight armadillo]

10. Wow, so much info, thanks!!

I am saving this thread for future reference. Thanks everyone for your replies, I feel a bit less educated now. One of these days I'll go do some gun training (my bro recently did so in NH and loved it) and while I have no plans on owning a gun at home target shooting seems like a good time.

[Wonk]

11. "I feel a bit less educated now."

Yeah, spending significant amounts of time in the gungeon can have that result, I've noticed ;-)

[midnight armadillo]

12. Less UNeducated!!!

I meant UNeducated!!! As in the replies helped me out! Pardon me for the typo please everyone :-)

[x5060]

13. A few answers

For a self defense weapon i would recommend a H&K .45 USPC its the compact version. Its what iu use when i carry.

Magnum dosent really mean anything other than a longer caseing with more powder.

ACP is a typically refered to as the .45 ACP round. since it is diffrent from the original .45 LC round.

if you are just plinking at the range, a 9mm will do just fine. A personally i dont like revolvers that much.

If you ever would like to go shooting, id gladly take you to the range and teach you all the shooting safty, technique, and know-how you would ever want =)

[skippythwndrdog]

14. I have 9mm's I have .45 ACP's, I have most handgun calibers

ever produced. For personal defense, I prefer the .45 ACP - a 1911 is my personal favorite. The 9mm is OK, but I feel that a 9mm is just a .45 set on stun.

For hunting I prefer either the .41 mag or 45 long Colt for game up to and including black bear. Anything larger than that and I use either a .454 Casull or .500 Mag.

Let's talk rifles, too!

[happyslug]

15. Some comments, Revolvers vs Automatics

First the pros and cons of Revolvers vs Automatics:

It is easier to see if a Revolver is loaded as compared to an Automatic. Most Revolvers cylinder just swings out and you can see that all of the chambers are empty. To make sure an automatic empty you not only have to pull the Magazine but work the action AFTER THE MAGAZINE HAS BEEN REMOVED. One of the hazards of Automatics is when a person do these in reverse, he thinks he has an empty weapon when it has a round in the chamber ready to go off.

It is easier to design a Revolver for more powerful rounds. The Revolver's Cylinder is not only attached to the base of the weapon, but the top strap over the Cylinder provides additional strength around the Cylinder. In Automatics all the is holding the barrel to the weapon is slide (Which is at the BOTTOM of the Barrel). Thus while it is NOT impossible to design a powerful automatic as a Revolver, it is easier to do so for a Revolver (and the resulting weapons, strength of design is still in the Revolver).

In case of a "misfire" an user of an Revolver just have to pull the trigger again to fire another round, in an Automatic the user has to manually operate the slide to eject the bad round and get a new round into the chamber.

Firepower is the main advantage of the Automatics over the Revolver. Revolvers can be design for more than Six rounds (and have been in the past up to nine is some 22 caliber Revolvers) but such designs tend to make the weapon to heavy compared to "Six-Shooters" and Automatics thus these two "weapons" are the ones we are looking at. Not only does an automatic fire FASTER than a Revolver, it is quicker to load an Automatic than a Revolver (and that is even true if the Revolver user is using "speed loaders" to speed up his/her reloading).

Note the three advantages of the Revolver to the one of the Automatic (But that one is VERY IMPORTANT IN FIREFIGHTS). When Police believed that most of their "fire fights" would be with one or two criminals with Revolvers, knives or even fists (while the officer waited for backup) the advantages of the Revolver overcome its lack of Firepower. When Officers started to believe that they might be in a Firefight AND LOSE THAT FIREFIGHT, they started to switch to Automatics. In many ways the Police shift reflect what the police most fear (whether or not such fear is justified). Most Civilians users of Pistols have made the same decision based on the fear of losing a "Firefight", I would opt for the greater safety of a Revolver because if I get into a fire fight I am going to lose it anyway.

[happyslug]

16. Pro and Cons of 9mm vs 45 auto

Now I addressed this as 9m vs 45 but the real issue is power of a cartridge vs hitting a target.

To hit a target you need several things:
1. Accurate ammunition (Most modern Ammunition exceed the accuracy of most shooters so rarely is an issue),
2. Size of the Pistol (The heaver the pistol the less recoil you feel, and thus the better chance of hitting somethings, but heavier pistols are HARDER to conceal AND heavy to carry),
3. The power of the round being used (The "weaker" the round, the less recoil, the more powerful the round the heavier the recoil) and,
4. The amount of TRAINING one can do to overcome number 2 and 3 above.

To illustrate, the US Army in the early 1970s did a series of test comparing the 9mm (Also Called the 9x19, 9mm Parabellum and 9mm Lugar) with the 45 Automatic (also called the 45 ACP). In those tests the 9mm was found to be more "powerful". The reason for this was the test subjects were new recruits who had never fired a pistol and had minimal training in its use. Power was defined as the number of FOOT-POUNDS of Energy that hit a target. While each 45 round had more foot-pounds of Energy than the 9mm on a per round basis, the new recruits had a harder time hitting the target with the 45 compared to the 9mm. The result was the recruits hit the target with more POWER from the 9mm rounds (do to increase hits with the 9mm) than with the 45 Auto (The 45 had more power per round but less of the rounds hit the target compared to the 9mm).

Please note the test assumed #1 was not a problem and #2 was not a problem (The same weapon was used in each test except for the caliber). It is a test showing the importance of #3 i.e. it is easier to learn to fire a weaker than a more powerful pistol round. The weakness of the test is that it ignored #4, for training in the use of both the 9mm and the 45 auto was NOT done. People who HAD trained on the 45 auto quickly attacked the test for it went against what they have observed through their experience. Many of these attacks were valid but ignored the fact that the TRAINING that would have overcome the problem of people NOT hitting the target with the 45 Auto had been (and continues to be) downplayed. What I mean by this is the more you train (i.e. shoot) with the 45 the more accurate you become. With enough training you over come the results of the above test.

The downside of increase training is decreased time for other activities. For example most police Departments liked the 38 Special for years for the same reason people like the 9mm, it was easier to train people on being able to hit their targets with the 38 Special and 9mm than it is with the 45 auto. Many police departments want their Police Officers on the street NOT at the shooting range and such Police Departments do not have the time to train their officers on using the more effective 45 Automatic.

It is this issue of HOW MUCH TIME DO YOU WANT TO TIE UP THE USER OF THE PISTOL IN TRAINING, that sets up the question as to what Caliber pistols that person will use. If you opt for a 45 you will need to spend more time on the range than with a 38 Special or 9mm (These two rounds are roughly the same, the 38 Special caliber is .357 while the 9mm is .355 of an inch. They are NOT interchangeable with the 38 Special having a Rim for use in a Revolver and the 9mm bing "rimless" for use in an Automatic).

The easiest round to learn to shoot is the 22 caliber, it has minimal recoil but minimal effect on human sized targets. The next in line is the 25 automatic (Which was developed in the early 1900s do to the lack of consistency in 22 caliber bullets of the time period prevented John Browning from making a 22 Automatic that worked). The 25 caliber has roughly the same power as a 22 caliber.

They are some 32s still around, but these pocket pistols are almost all gone now, more popular in the early 1900s than today being squeezed by the new 22 automatics and 9mm.

After the 32s comes the various 38s and 9mm (Including the 9mm Markov 9x18 round which is between the "Pocket" and "Standard" Pistols). The 38s and 9mms comes in three classes, "Pocket" 38s (380 ACP, 9x17mm 38 Short) "Standard" Rounds (9x19 Parabellum, 38 Special, 38 Long Colt and 38 S&W) and "Magnum" 38s (357 Magnum, 38 Super). All of these round use a 355-357 round ball except the 38 S&W which is .38 caliber). All tend to use the same size bullets (With the "38s" bullets being heavier than the "9mm" bullets). The main difference between Pocket, Standard and Magnum Rounds is the amount of POWDER behind each round. The weaker Pocket 38s tend to have light bullets backed with light loads of gunpowder so that they are easier to aim and shoot given the smaller pistols they tend to be used in. The "Standard" pistols tend to be used by the Police and Military and have has has become the minimal needed in police/combat roles. The "Magnum" pistols tend to be used by Hunters but some police like them do to increase penetration of automobile bodies over the Standard rounds. The bullets of the Magnum and Standards rounds tend to be the same, the real difference is the amount of GUNPOWDER behind each round. The Magnum have much more Gunpowder and thus heavier recoil than the Standard Rounds (With the gain of greater penetration do to the increase speed coming out of the barrel).

Next come the .40 caliber rounds including the rarely seen 41 Magnum. Than the 44 caliber including the 44 magnum and the 44 Russian (Both of which are really .43 caliber but 44 sounds better). And finally the .45 caliber in either .45 Colt or .45 ACP (Both .45 in caliber). The advantages of these "big bores" is that given the greater sectional density (i.e. their are larger in diameter than the smaller rounds), you have a quicker transfer of energy from the bullet to the target (and thus it is more effective than the smaller caliber rounds). In many ways the "Standard Big Bores" have LESS power than the Magnum 38s BUT with less penetration (and more recoil given the heavier bullets used in the big bores).

As to the Big Bore "Magnums" (Including the 44 magnum) these are used by people who shoot almost nothing else. Rarely used by Police do to the extended need for training to hit anything than any excess penetration. When police "need" something more powerful than a 45 ACP the Police tend to opt for a Shotgun or Rifle.

One last comment. Watch for the various "Studies" you will see talked about within the gun dungeon. For example in 1909 the US did a "study" of pistols and decided the minimal round needed was what become the 45 Automatic (or 45 ACP). In the 1930s the British did a similar study and come back that the best round was a modified 38 S&W (which was .38 caliber NOT .357 Caliber of the 38 Special) and in the 1950s the Russians did a study which showed its 9mm Markov (9x18) was the best round.

The result of each of these studies were Predetermined. The US had a bad experience with the .38 Long Colt during the Philippines insurrection and wanted a 45 caliber round and thus the study produced the 45 ACP as the round to use. The British had become disenchanted with its .455 round during WWI and wanted a weaker round but not a "police" round so it modified the 38 S&W to produce its own weapon. The Russians not only made effectiveness a part of the equation but the cost of the pistol (and an addition of minimizing training time). These three conditions meant the 9x18 Markov was adopted for it was the most powerful round you could use in a simple blow back design (Which permitted Markov's to be produced at 1/2 to a 1/3 of the costs of Western Pistols in 45 ACP or 9x19mm Parabellum).

It is the four factors above that set what caliber weapon any person wants as the "ideal" weapon. As you can see the "ideal" can change over time. Given the limitation on most Police Budgets as to training and buying new equipment my first choice of weapons would be the 9x18 Markov. It is easy to shoot, easy to learn, and cheap to buy (and produce). Police officers do not "waste" their time learning to shoot a more powerful gun. The time saved can be used to patrol the streets.

On the other hand if you have the time to train, than the .45 makes more sense. Once you shoot someone with the 45 he tends to stay down and the 45 does not have the excessive penetration of the 357 Magnum or 38 Super. If you have the time to train, the 45 in the round to get, but if you do not go with the 9x18 Markov.

The 9x19 Parabellum (or Luger Round what most people call "9mm") is to powerful in the sense it needs a weapon as expensive as a 45 but has only marginal more power than the 9x18 Markov. The 9x19 Luger round takes more training than the 9x18, enough to make a difference in tight budgets and if you have to cut back on training, cut back smartly i.e. cut back in a way to minimize the effect of the cut back and that is going with the 9x18 Markov NOT the 9x19 mm Luger round.

[happyslug]

17. I forgot one point

Revolvers tend NOT to be as picky as to ammunition quality as Automatics. Today this is not quite the problem it was in the late 1800s and early 1900s, but can still cause some problems. For example .45 Colt Automatics have a history or NOT liking any .45 round except .45 Military ball (230 grain per bullet). Using a lighter bullet has been know to jam the action to to lack of (or to much) power applied to the action. You do not have this with Revolvers. In fact several users of 357 Magnum Revolvers like loading 5 38 Specials in their Revolvers and one 357 Magnum just in case the first 5 was NOT enough to stop any attacker. The Rounds are interchangeable in 357 Magnum Revolvers and thus such a shooter could opt for more than one type of Ammunition. This can be done in Automatics, but with increase possibility of jamming.