Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Guns and deep remorse - interesting questions

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 09:22 AM
Original message
Guns and deep remorse - interesting questions
"It happened in Australia last week. The robber waylaid Karen Brown in the carpark outside a Sydney hotel. Brown, a 42-year-old security guard, had just picked up a deposit bag containing the hotel take, something between $30,000 and $50,000. She was dressed in civilian clothes.

The robber was wearing brass knuckles. Lifting Brown by the hair, he punched her repeatedly in the head and bashed her to the ground, fracturing her skull, an eye socket, her nose and left hand, and leaving her possibly brain damaged. Then the robber, a 25-year-old ex-con named William Aquilina, dragged Brown across the asphalt toward his stolen getaway car, dropping her like a rag doll when she finally released the deposit bag. Aquilina then got into the car. Blood pouring into her eyes, Brown somehow managed to stand up, remove her concealed handgun and take aim at the driver's seat.

And yes, she shot Aquilina dead where he sat. "

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Winnipeg/John_Gleeson/2004/08/06/570539.html



I wonder, would that violent felon have attempted this robbery if he knew she was armed? I wonder, what gave him the confidence to go after a bag of loot with only brass knuckles? Many questions!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. It sounds like an inappropriate shooting, maybe
If a similar incident happened in California the shooter would certainly be chargeable with manslaughter. Being on the job doesn't give a person special privileges to use deadly force when the threat has passed. OTOH she'd have a lot of ammunition for a legal defense.

I don't know how it would play in Australia, but here she might be able to pursuade a jury that under the circumstances she "reasonably" feared that Mr. Aqulina might come back to finish her off.

...and leaving her possibly brain damaged....

Another possible basis for a legal defense if the case happened in the US. If her brain was damaged she might not at that moment have been able to distinguish between right and wrong.

This is a tough one. I hope I never have to make the decision to shoot someone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I think
she clearly was not justified in shooting. It might be legally excused but not morally. Unless, as you suggest, she was off her rocker after getting beat like that.

My question is why would someone attempt an robbery like that, with only brass knuckles? It occured to me that he was probably betting on her being unarmed.

Either way, he's dead and she is scarred for life. I wonder if all that gun restriction back fired (forgive the pun).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Perhaps she felt he was still a threat.
After all, he had just beaten her severely and dragged her towards his car. Perhaps she felt he was going to kidnap or further harm her so she shot him to prevent him from doing her further violence.

If I were her that would be my only statement to the police.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
3. justified, I think
Let's see -- the assailant had cracked her skull, broken her eye socket, busted her nose and her hand; and having wrestled the money sack away from her, he gets into a (stolen!) car and prepares to make his getaway...

Given all that, why shouldn't she have believed that she was in imminent peril of getting run down? After all, she presumably could have described him to police. I don't think that it is quite reasonable simply to assume that the man intended to leave her alive.


The point about the brain injury she sustained during the beating is relevant to the possibility of a finding of diminished responsibility or mitigation, or something of the sort -- but, of course, it has no bearing on whether the shooting was justified or not.


Mary
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goju Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Well
I can see karma playing a role in the justification, but it smells more like a vengeance killing.

Begs the question, if he had had a gun, would he have shot her or just put it in her face and taken the money? Might have saved 2 lives.

Why they conceal carry is a real mystery. A hip holster might have prevented the whole deal. Any high profile security official should be visibly carrying. Deterence, yes.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. who deserves the benefit of the doubt here?
I can see karma playing a role in the justification, but it smells more like a vengeance killing.


Perhaps she did desire vengeance for what he did to her, and perhaps that thought never crossed her mind. Either way, it's immaterial: she had, arguably, a compelling reason to believe that she was in mortal danger, and when she saw a chance to defend herself, she took it -- killing her attacker in the process.

Looking at this case after the fact and at my leisure, I can't think of one good argument for giving the robber the benefit of the doubt; Karen Brown, having been left dropped on the pavement when Aquilina turned to climb into his getaway car, didn't have the luxury of long reflection. She acted, and I do not fault her decision to shoot.


Mary
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Township75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. I hope this is legally justifiable...it certainly is morally.
I would be willing to bet that the deceased would do this again to another individual. Now that the POS is dead, it won't happen to another individual. I hope the victum of the attack can use this or something else for a good legal defense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. No sure it's morally justified but I feel no sympathy for the decedent
He played a significant role in his own death by choosing a bad career and the wrong victim.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
7. Like the dog's breakfast...
not only disgusting crap...but already digested and regurgitated crap....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=75563
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jack_DeLeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
10. I feel its a justified shooting...
perhaps not legally to the letter of the law, but morally.

She will probably get off, but I dont think she should have been charged in the first place.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
thomas82 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. sounds to me
Like another POS bad guy is dead. Hell she deserves a medal.
Tom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
enfield collector Donating Member (821 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-07-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
12. I hope she made sure the attacker was actually in the
driver seat before she shot, what if he was only the passenger?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 05:00 PM
Response to Original message
13. She executed him
The danger had passed. She had no right to try, convict and pass judgement on him (and yes, I do think the guy was scum. Doesnt' matter, the danger had passed and she had no right to use deadly force to execute him.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bowline Donating Member (670 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Perhaps she felt he was still a danger to her.
Just offering a possible motive for her behavior, but he had, after all, just finished beating her half to death and dragging her toward his car. Perhaps she was worried that he was just resting up before finishing her off.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. the danger had passed? how do you figure?
the guy had stopped attacking her with the pound or so of the brass knuckles, and had just climbed into a several ton weapon, and was proceeding to start it up.

Which kills more people annually? Cars or brass knuckles?

Which would you rather be hit by?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbnd45 Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. I can't believe
Edited on Mon Aug-09-04 10:09 PM by mbnd45
this is even being discussed. He initiated the attack, she killed him. He was still a threat because he could have used the car to finish her off. Even if you don't believe that, you should pretend like you do, STFU, and let her get on with her life.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbnd45 Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. But her head was bashed in,
and she probably didn't know which way was up. It's easy for you to say that she executed him, sitting behind your computer. If any jury convicts her, they deserve to be bitch-smacked.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mbnd45 Donating Member (43 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Yet you want to pass judgement on her.
If it were up to you, she would be put away for a long time. Circumstances don't matter to you. The fact that a gun was involved is enough to convict her (in your mind).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. Not my problem that you don't agree with me
The danger had passed. The man was leaving. She shot him after he was in the car and (presumably) driving away. If the had the presence of mind to get her weapon, aim and shoot him dead, she could have just as easily rolled to the side and been out of the path of his car (if she was ever in the path, which the story does not state).

In many places, you cannot use lethal force unless your life is in imment danger. Hers was not. She executed him in revenge for his attack on her.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. It's not our job to decide what she was thinking
If she goes to trial that responsibility will fall on a jury, who will have access to a lot more information than any of us here.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. it sounds to me
... like she was, quite possibly, scared out of her mind.

The question in self-defence is always whether the person who committed the assault or homicide that s/he claims to have been in self-defence reasonably believed that s/he had no alternative, in order to avoid serious injury or death, but to do what s/he did.

Any of our guesses as to what this woman reasonably believed at the time are just big ol' guesses. She may have shot out of hatred and vengeance. She may have shot out of abject overwhelming over-riding fear of further injury or death -- and it may have been entirely reasonable for *her*, in those circumstances, to have felt that fear.

I have no idea whether she had a reasonable fear of "being run down" -- we don't seem to have any information about where she was and where the car was or what direction it was heading. I wouldn't require such a specific fear, if I were trying the facts of the case. I'd be open to the possibility that she was just overwhelmed by fear, and reasonably so. But I'd need some credible evidence -- her own testimony and some expert opinion -- before I made a finding one way or the other.


As to the questions:

I wonder, would that violent felon have attempted this robbery if he knew she was armed? I wonder, what gave him the confidence to go after a bag of loot with only brass knuckles?

This woman was the person who regularly left a business with large amounts of money to take to the bank. Do we imagine that the person who attacked her didn't know this?? Maybe he was just randomly assaulting people walking out of the pub in question?

He targeted her specifically because she was carrying a lot of money. He had every reason to expect that she *was* carrying a firearm.

And surely it is obvious that this very fact is the most likely reason that he attacked her as viciously and brutally as he did. Had she been unarmed, he would only have needed to grab her bag, perhaps shove her or knock her down, and run. Instead, he started out by battering her.

He would seem to have misjudged the success of his attack, and thought that he had incapacitated her, when he hadn't quite. He apparently also misjudged the resistance she would put up even in the face of the battering. And she might have got off a little better had she not resisted.


I continue to be of the opinion that carrying a firearm was about the least effective way for this person to protect herself and the property she was guarding. A little basic common sense on the part of herself and the business, involving, first and foremost, another person accompanying her as she left the building, would have been more likely to prevent what happened to her than a firearm in her purse.

What *I* find interesting is that the robber didn't have a firearm. Surely, if he'd had access to one, he would have brought it along.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. Our guesses about the state of mind of the robber are also just guesses
Edited on Mon Aug-09-04 06:17 PM by slackmaster
Maybe he chose brass knuckles as opposed to a gun because he wasn't willing to risk Australia's substantial sentence enhancement for robbery with a gun. See http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/consol_act/cc94/s392.html - Robbery with "any dangerous or offensive weapon or instrument" carries a life sentence. I doubt very much that it was impossible or even very difficult for him to get a gun if he'd really wanted one. (FWIW here in California brass knuckles are in the same legal category as short-barrelled shotguns and the infamous shuriken. See PC 12020.)

He targeted her specifically because she was carrying a lot of money. He had every reason to expect that she *was* carrying a firearm.

And surely it is obvious that this very fact is the most likely reason that he attacked her as viciously and brutally as he did.


Or maybe he was a sadistic freak, or hated women. Oh yeah, his gransfather said he was a really nice guy. :eyes:

I continue to be of the opinion that carrying a firearm was about the least effective way for this person to protect herself and the property she was guarding.

I think she lapsed on situational awareness, and having a second person present would have made the dynamics of the situation very different irrespective of what kinds of weapons anyone was carrying.

In bank procedures I'm familiar with here in Southern California, people who carry cash e.g. ATM servicers always work in pairs. But of course that adds to costs.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. Well his grandfather was a former police officer
so I'm going to trust his opinion. I wouldn't want to be accused of senselessly bashing the police again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. oh yeah ... I meant to say ... (edited)
Edited on Mon Aug-09-04 06:24 PM by iverglas
"I think she lapsed on situational awareness, and having a second person present would have made the dynamics of the situation very different irrespective of what kinds of weapons anyone was carrying."

How obvious is it that her carrying a firearm DID NOT do one little itty bitty thing to keep this woman safe?

She could have been kept safe by something else, specifically accompaniment, in the complete absence of a firearm.

And she could also have had her firearm taken from her and used against her. She doesn't seem to have been in much of a state to resist.

edit: I keep forgetting to complete my thought. I think I have a virus ... The rest of the thought goes:

Regardless of what any of us think of the shooting victim in this case, the only result of the woman's access to the firearm was that someone is dead who would not otherwise have been. We (not being maddened by fear) have no reason to believe that he was going to do anything but drive off with his loot, secure in the belief that his victim was incapacitated. The presence of the firearm turned a violent robbery into a violent robbery and homicide.

Hell, for all we know, the whole thing was a conspiracy gone awry -- he decided not to share and to batter her rather than merely robbing her, and she decided to get even. Had that been the case (and there's no doubt that such conspiracies occur and that parties to them do kill one another for precisely such reasons, even if there's no reason to think that was the case here), the one person who could have confirmed it is no longer with us.

Maybe he chose brass knuckles as opposed to a gun because he wasn't willing to risk Australia's substantial sentence enhancement for robbery with a gun. I doubt very much that it was impossible or even very difficult for him to get a gun if he'd really wanted one.

And I really and truly doubt very much that he calculated what he did to achieve the best possible outcome in terms of sentence, rather than to achieve the best possible outcome in terms of money in his pocket.

This notion that yr average criminal thinks like yr average CEO, carefully doing a risk-benefit analysis before setting out, is just so totally discredited.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NorthernSpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 07:05 AM
Response to Reply #15
25. if that's the case...
Edited on Tue Aug-10-04 07:12 AM by NorthernSpy
And surely it is obvious that this very fact is the most likely reason that he attacked her as viciously and brutally as he did. Had she been unarmed, he would only have needed to grab her bag, perhaps shove her or knock her down, and run. Instead, he started out by battering her.


If your supposition is correct, then Brown's decision to shoot Aquilina was absolutely the wisest decision she could have made under the circumstances. Anyone who would attack a person he knew to be armed with a gun very likely fits the profile of a psychopath: fearless, brazen, and utterly remorseless and indifferent to the wellbeing of others. A psychopath simply isn't dissuaded by threats of bodily harm or the prospect of death, and will not hesitate to kill rather than leave a witness to his crimes.


Mary


(fixed typo)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
17. She should have just laid there and taken it...
that way, the attacker's family wouldn't call her a "bitch".

I'd think a dimcap defense would be warranted here. After all, considering the damage she took, she probably wasn't thinking clearly, since she had almost been beaten to death.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-09-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. As iverglas pointed out...
Even the emotional state caused by such a traumatic experience could have put her out of her "right mind". A good defense attorney would see a target-rich environment for exculpatory evidence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #17
27. So what you're saying is........
That the gun didn't help her defend herself in any way at all.

However, it was a good thing she had one so that when she managed to struggle to her feet with severe head injuries she was able to shoot someone.

Sounds pretty convincing to me.

:eyes:

Incidentally, I'm not really condemning her actions at all - who knows what was going through her head after that attack? What I am condemning is your suggestion that the outcome was in some way positive or lends support to the idea of guns providing effective self defense.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Hey...
she's not embedded in the grille of the asshole's car. That's a win in my book.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. yeah ...

And you haven't been trampled by elephants yet. Guess that whistling worked.

For folks so quick to demand proof of the alternate universe that would exist if "X" hadn't happened, some of you seem awful quick to swallow some hypothetical alternate universes whole.

she's not embedded in the grille of the asshole's car.

And of course, we have established, by proof beyond a shadow of a doubt as is generally required hereabouts, that she WOULD HAVE BEEN embedded in the grille of the car if she had not shot him.

Uh ... where did we do that?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. what we HAVE ascertained...
is that the guy wasn't there to ask her out on a date, he was there at least in part to cause her serious bodily harm, as demonstrated by the fact that he deliberately fractured her skull and a bunch of other bones. He wasn't selling cookies. If he had hit her 10 times with the brass knuckles, how would we KNOW that he was going to hit her an 11th time? Well, we don't. That doesn't mean a reasonable person would think he was just going to stop and render first aid, does it?

The standard of proof isn't beyond a shadow of a doubt, it's beyond a "reasonable doubt", at least in the US. And that is NOT the normal standard of self-defense, at least in the US. In the US, it's a reasonable person standard. IMHO, most reasonable people would conclude that the guy wanted to hurt her, given her demonstrable injuries. It's not like she was walking across the street, saw a car with a stranger in it, and shot him because she irrationally thought he was going to hurt her. In this case, he HAD hurt her, and in fact had almost beaten her to death.

I'd vote to acquit....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. So what you're saying is:
1 - that a gun didn't stop her being violently assaulted or afford her any form of protection

2 - she shot someone who was LEAVING the scene and posing no further risk to herself, despite her aim and mental faculties being hindered by severe injuries

You also seem to be implying that the attacker would have taken the precaution of arming himself better (and thus causing more severe injury or death) if he'd have realised that his victim had a gun.

So....having a hidden gun didn't help (and arguably led to a further crime), and if the attacker had realised she'd got a gun he'd have tooled himself up more possibly?

Aside from anything else, anybody in Australia WOULD actually know that somebody doing a cash run of this sort would probably be carrying a gun, which of course didn't help anyway.

To conclude:

Am I sad that this piece of shit robber is dead? No, not really - if you can believe the highly emotional content of this sensationalist report then the robber has only himself to blame for his violent death. However, Australia doesn't have the death penalty and so its parliament might deem the victim's response excessive. (Of course, if she'd have shot him as he attacked her then IMHO it would be justifiable self-defence).

Did the gun either prevent the robbery/injury or help during the attack?

Nope. Not at all.

Incidentally:

"Australians spent at least half a billion dollars to collect and destroy hundreds of thousands of legally owned guns, and the result? No decrease in violent crime, armed robberies up by 166%. "

Do we really have to go through this again? Is it J/PS Remedial Class? Aside from the fact that I don't believe Australia spent that much money on collecting and destroying guns, you'll find that they confiscated them prevent misuse of legally held weapons that had been used on various occasions to commit massacres. This was never intended to address the misuse of illegal weapons by criminals.

Next please............

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
30. did anybody read the article linked?
I was negligent, and I only just noticed that the link was to the canoe.ca site, which means the Sun newspaper chains, which means reliably right-wing opinion (just tawdrier than the Black/Hollinger/Asper chain).

After quoting John Lott North -- Gary Mauser -- as if he were some sort of genuine authority worth listening to:

"Focus on the guys who are a threat instead of the guys who are not a threat."
he goes on to say:

That makes perfect sense to me, but for those of you who wish we had the same freedom as so many Americans to "pack heat" for personal protection, all I can say is look at the case of poor Karen Brown.

A trained security guard, when she was attacked she didn't have time to use her gun to defend herself. Had she tried drawing it while Aquilina was beating her, he might have forced it from her and used it, on her or someone else.
Damn, not even the Canadian right wing can be counted on for "pro-gun" opinion.

This week Brown was charged with one count of murder. It's hard to imagine her being convicted because she was, after all, doing her job. But had she been a mere citizen with a legal permit to carry a concealed weapon, a conviction would be much more likely, since Aquilina apparently did not pose a threat to her when she killed him.

So it sounds good -- this idea of citizens going around all armed and civil. Especially if the knowledge of that fact deters criminals from attacking people.

But it isn't that simple. Just ask Karen Brown.

Now, the problem with this little thesis seems to be where some in this thread of also run aground.

Killing someone in the course of doing one's job / protecting personal property (e.g. one's employer's cash) is NOT "self-defence". There is no more lawful justification for killing, or injuring, a person to prevent theft than there is for killing or injuring a person out of spite.

The Winnipeg Sun columnist says:

But she had the gun, and her job was to protect the money, so she killed the robber.
... and if that were actually an accurate summary of what she did -- shoot at the robber to protect the money, there would be no doubt that it was murder.

Security guards do not carry firearms to protect property -- they carry them to protect themselves because of their heightened vulnerability to assault.

Some interesting tidbits:

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0%2C4057%2C10328882%255E421%2C00.html

Infuriated by her decision to conduct media interviews before speaking with investigators about the events of last Monday at Moorebank, police had threatened to charge Brown in absentia if she failed to meet them.

... Channel 7's Today Tonight program last night aired the controversial interview with Brown, for which she was paid $100,000.

Crying throughout the interview - which was recorded at the weekend - Brown said she was devastated for herself and Aquilina's family.

"I'm just so sorry for his family and for him," she said.

"I know what they would be going through. I wish I would wake up tomorrow and my life's normal again ... which it won't be."
In light of those facts, I really think it is reasonable to wonder how many of the tears were of the crocodile variety, and how much of her message was prepared for the purpose of swaying public opinion while she still did not know whether she would be charged.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/08/02/1091432112969.html?from=moreStories&oneclick=true

In the days after the shooting Brown was declared medically unfit to give a police interview but managed to speak to Today Tonight and a newspaper. The move infuriated police, who gave her until 6pm on Sunday to attend the Liverpool police station. She failed to meet the deadline but was finally interviewed yesterday afternoon, six hours before the recorded interview went to air.

Asked on Today Tonight why she had waited a week before giving a statement to police, Brown said: "I didn't know whether I was going to be charged, whether I was going to get jail. I really wanted someone there to look after me."

Her barrister, Joseph Busuttil, said the fee would cover her medical and legal expenses.
Doesn't Australia still have public health care insurance?

Asked if she thought Mr Aquilina might kill her, Brown answered "yes", because she thought the flash she saw was a knife. "I would never go and just shoot someone dead like that, for God's sake," she said.
Of course, she saw the "something silver" *before* she was first struck by him, and when she shot him he had stopped beating her.

Nonetheless, I remain entirely open to the idea that she was a perfectly normal Australian who did not harbour revenge fantasies and was not retaliating for the robber's theft of the property it was her job to protect, and really, and reasonably in her circumstances, was scared out of her mind and believed that her life was in immediate danger.

The "battered woman" defence is one example of the point here. The reasonableness of the belief in the immediate danger to one's life does depend on the individual's experience, and it simply may be too much to expect of a particular individual in particular circumstances that s/he analyze the situation with the calm and cool eye that someone outside the situation could bring to it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-10-04 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. Good analysis, as usual
It seems obvious that had she not been carrying a gun she would have simply left the area after the robber got in his car. Instead, her training to use the gun and the desensitization to killing another human brought on by carrying the gun made her mover TOWARD danger, instead of away from it. Had she not been packing the man would still be alive and she would not be crying her tears.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pert_UK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Oh my MY Iverglas......
Somebody has completely misrepresented an article which highlights the dangers of armed citizenry and the rather dubious behaviour of someone who killed their attacker, and used it as a pro gun piece???

What IS the world coming to?

I think I'll have to have a lie down with a wet towel over my head.....

:evilgrin:

Fantastic....It's almost as if someone had quoted from an article saying, "Guns are great and a fantastic means of self defense" but failed to quote the following line saying, "Has been comprehensively disproved by the following situation".

Marvellous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-11-04 07:22 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. By the way...
shall we remark that this occured in Australia, that tyrannical dictatorship where honest people are prevented from owning guns, according to our "pro gun democrats"?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Apr 25th 2024, 06:19 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC