GUNS IN THE NEWS--August 13, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. EXCEPTION: On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Please try whenever possible to provide links to web sites that do not require you to subscribe to the site to read the story. If a subscription site is the only source you can find for a story, please note that fact in your message so people can decide whether they want to follow the link to read the entire story.
5 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
6 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
7 - The person adding a news story to the "GITN" thread is allowed (and encouraged) to comment on that story, indicating their position on the topic being discussed. These comments can appear either at the beginning or end of the post; if possible, place comments in a different typeface so readers can separate the comments from the story. Others who wish to comment on a posted story can do so by replying to that story; this allows other readers to follow the comments by scrolling through the subthread.
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9 - If you object to these guidelines (or the basic concept of the "Guns In The News" thread), do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Gun purchase checked (WA)

Our scummy gun industry in action...

"MONROE - Monroe police want federal agents to look into how Bryan Hetherwick was able to buy a gun just hours before killing his grandson and himself.
Detectives traced the handgun, a Russian-made Makarov, to a licensed gun dealer in Mukilteo, Police Chief Tim Quenzer said.
Hetherwick's wife, Carolyn, also wants to know why her husband was able to purchase a gun so quickly. If he'd been forced to wait, he might have reconsidered, she said. At a minimum, the dealer should have checked his background, she said.
Dealers who sell handguns to people who do not have a license to carry a concealed weapon must submit an application to local police. Police then have five days to determine if the person is allowed to legally own a gun."

http://heraldnet.com/stories/04/08/13/loc_gun001.cfm

Remember, Washington state was also the home of the Bullseye Gun Shop, which "lost" hundreds of weapons, including guns that ended up in the hands of Buford "Wake-Up Call to America" Furrow, who shot up a kindergarten and a killed a postman, and the Beltway snipers.

[NorthernSpy]

5. 'cause we all know that every tragedy has a legislative solution....

:eyes:


Tell me something: if this man had been denied the opportunity to purchase a firearm, what do you suppose he might have done instead?

It sounds to me as though he was determined to kill himself and to take his grandson with him. Do I really need to spell out all the many alternative methods of murder that he might as easily have employed?

Mrs. Hetherwick has suffered a dreadful loss, certainly, and perhaps trying to get laws passed makes her feel less helpless in the face of such horror. The problem with that, though, is that she risks falling into the trap of believing that it was really up to a bunch of strangers who didn't know her husband to anticipate his intentions, and that since they failed to stop him, then they must be to blame for what happened.


Mary

[MrBenchley]

6. Gee, every gun-related tragedy sure sprouts a shitload of spin

from our pro-gun democrats....

"It sounds to me as though he was determined to kill himself and to take his grandson with him"
Sure was lucky he found a gun dealer willing to break the law and cash in, wasn't it?

[Vladimir]

10. In this particular case

had the man been forced to wait for a gun, he might have thought twice about the whole thing. Even if he decided to go through with it using a knife or such, his task in killing the boy would have been made a lot more difficult. The purpose of any properly enforced legislation is to make crime more difficult, not to eliminate it.

[MrBenchley]

12. Remember...

there were already laws in place that might have prevented this...and the gun dealer didn't pay a lick of attention to them.

[Vladimir]

14. He probably wanted to respect the 2nd amendment n/t

[MrBenchley]

15. LOL!

[CO Liberal]

11. Not EVERY Tragedy, but Many

This needs to be fully investigates. And if positive steps can be taked to prevent tragedies like this in the future, so be it.

[MrBenchley]

13. By the way, CO...

Check out the "Democrats need to pull their triggers" thread. After all these months of dishonest hullaballoo about people alleging that ALL gun owners are racist, the board finally got that allegation....in a pro gun essay posted by a "pro-gun democrat."

Gave me a BIG laugh.

[FeebMaster]

21. Oh come on

you know very well that the allegations that people are alleging that ALL gun owners are racist isn't dishonest.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FeebMaster]

24. I must have missed where it said

all gun owners are racist in that thread.

[MrBenchley]

26. Then read it again, feeb.....

It clearly says that Kerry has to kill birds to appeal to the sort of armed rural fuckwit who is still opposed to the civil rights movement....

Boy o boy, imagine what a hullaballoo there'd have been if I had posted that....

[FeebMaster]

32. Still not seeing it. (nt)

[CO Liberal]

48. Right Here, Feeb

"...ever since the Democratic Party got its liberal reputation from the civil rights movement..."

The implication here is that being if favor of liberal causes AND the Civil Rights Movement is wrong. Hence, being in favor of conservatisn and racism is good.

[FeebMaster]

50. So you mean

"...ever since the Democratic Party got its liberal reputation from the civil rights movement..."

is supposed to mean that all gun owners are racists? Wow. That's a stretch even for the gun control crowd.

[Retired AF Dem]

52. Could you clarify this

To be a fuck wit do you have to live in a rural area and be armed? If you live in a rural area and don't own guns does that make you half a fuck wit? If a person lives in a semi-rural area and don't own guns does that make him a 1/4 fuck wit? And what really confuses me is that I thought Archie Bunker had passed on.

[iverglas]

18. traps fallen into

First --

It sounds to me as though he was determined to kill himself and to take his grandson with him. Do I really need to spell out all the many alternative methods of murder that he might as easily have employed?

No. But if you are asserting that the law in question, and adherence to it, would not have averted this event, then you need to do more than just assert it!

I can't think of any equally efficient and effective way of committing a homicide-suicide. Stab the victim, and then stab one's self? Strangle the victim, and then strangle one's self? Throw the victim off a cliff, and then jump off, maybe. Strange, though, how few people choose to commit suicide by jumping off high things as compared to shooting themselves -- even when high things are more readily available, and cheaper, than firearms, to almost everyone.

To successfully commit a homicide-suicide without a firearm, more planning is generally needed, since there are few ways of committing suicide that are as assuredly quick and deadly as shooting one's self.

All of these "they would have done it anyway" objections, whether regarding firearms-facilitated crimes, homicides or suicides, simply ignore basic human nature. People do sometimes act on impulse. People are sometimes deterred from doing things by the effort and planning required.


The problem with that, though, is that she risks falling into the trap of believing that it was really up to a bunch of strangers who didn't know her husband to anticipate his intentions, and that since they failed to stop him, then they must be to blame for what happened.

She may *risk* falling into that trap, but is that relevant to what she is actually doing?

Hetherwick's wife, Carolyn, also wants to know why her husband was able to purchase a gun so quickly. If he'd been forced to wait, he might have reconsidered, she said. At a minimum, the dealer should have checked his background, she said.

"The thought that someone could sell a gun to somebody without doing any checking upsets me," she said. "I'm happy to know they've tracked down where the gun was from. I want to know if there's anything they can do about that."

... Carolyn Hetherwick said that when her husband decided to kill himself, he killed Brennan too because he thought she would be unable care for the boy by herself because she has multiple sclerosis.

She plans to tell lawmakers about her family's tragedy and urge them to tighten gun controls and increase mental health services.

It doesn't sound like it to me. It sounds to me like she sees a problem that needs solving. The fact that so many other people are so fond of engaging in finger-pointing and blaming doesn't mean that this is what she is doing.


Aside from all that, here's what I find utterly and completely bizarre about the situation. The person who sold the firearm was a licensed firearms dealer --

Background checks are not required when guns are sold by private parties.

The handgun was registered to the Mukilteo man, who operates out of his house. He could have sold the gun from his private collection, said Bill Forth, program manager for the firearms unit of the state Department of Licensing.

"You or anyone else has the right to privately sell (guns) and are not required to fill out any paperwork," Forth said.

-- but he can still just put on his other ballcap, the one that says "private collector", and have no obligations at all. I wonder whether the person who bought the firearm went to him because he was a friendly helpful sort of guy with a few guns in his sock drawer -- or because he was a firearms dealer.

[comradebillyboy]

2. i am shopping for an AR-15

i used to belong to the nra before they became an appendage of the republican party.

in my opinion, the dems turn off a lot of potential supporters because they appear to favor excessive (a very subjective term) gun control. regardless of the merits of gun control proposals, its a political loser and we need to pursue issues that draw people to us, not away. the assault weapons ban is a minot matter compared to the iraq war or asskkkroft's assault on our civil liberties.

[Wcross]

3. I have an AR15 I am thinking about selling....

I am considering selling my Olyarms pcr15 with a red-dot scope and extra 30 round mags. It is in good shape and is a good shooter. I am looking to buy another M1a and in order to finance that purchase I have to let this one go.

[MrBenchley]

4. Wow...I feel so much safer (snicker)

"in my opinion, the dems turn off a lot of potential supporters"
Would those be the ones offended by civil rights, as the idiotic "Democrats pull the trigger" essay suggested?

"we need to pursue issues that draw people to us"
Like how much we need to get an AR-15 to plug our fellow citizens? Give us a fucking break.

[MrBenchley]

7. Police: Bust Nets 44 Arrests, Cash, Drugs, Guns (FL)

" Police show an assault rifle seized during Operation Key Navigator. Operation Key Navigator, involving the Drug Enforcement Administration, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Fort Lauderdale Police Department, uncovered a massive ring importing drugs and then distributing them in South Florida, according to investigators. Police arrested 44 people and say they seized the following:
* 23 kilos of cocaine powder
* 1.7 kilos of crack cocaine
* $319,995 in cash
* Three guns
Police say their investigation started after they received an anonymous call in June 2002."

http://www.local10.com/news/3648020/detail.html

[skippythwndrdog]

25. Is the rifle in the pic an assault rifle?

I can't tell from the pic if it's select fire or not. It could just be a semi-auto AR15. I'd wager it's a semi-auto being mislabeled an assault weapon. Par for the course for the anti crowd.

But then, we all know what dishonest horseshit the anti-RKBA group peddles.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[skippythwndrdog]

46. I simply asked a question

What's dishonest about that? Nowhere in the article or in the photo caption does it fully describe the rifle pictured.

BTW, having grown up on a farm and currently living on one, I believe I am the better judge of hoeseshit. I simply do not understand why you use it (horsesht) as a derogatory. The only thing I've ever seen it do is promote plant growth. That's a definite positive.

[MrBenchley]

51. Well, I got no doubt you're intimately familiar with horseshit

[MrBenchley]

8. Clyde is sued over ban on guns in parks (OH)

Ohio's annoying loonies on the march...

"CLYDE - Ohioans for Concealed Carry has sued the city of Clyde for its refusal to rescind a May council decision outlawing concealed weapons in city parks.
State Sen. Ray Miller (D., Columbus) introduced a bill in May to let local communities ban the carrying of concealed weapons in parks and recreation areas. The state Senate has taken no action on the bill.
Toledo prohibits guns in its 144 parks. The city relies on its home-rule authority for the power to regulate activities that take place in city parks, rather than specific ordinances with criminal penalties banning the weapons, said Barb Herring, city law director."

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040813/NEWS02/408130360/-1/NEWS

[MrBenchley]

9. 3 More Arrested In Slaying (AR)

"A Pine Bluff man and two more teenagers have been arrested in the shooting death of 19-year-old Patrick Mickens on Tuesday night.
Police Sgt. Bob Rawlinson said Timothy O'Guinn, 21, of the 3800-block of West 25th Avenue, a 15-year-old male and a 17-year-old male were arrested Wednesday afternoon after their names surfaced during an investigation.
A 16-year-old boy surrendered to authorities Wednesday morning."

http://www.pbcommercial.com/articles/2004/08/13/news/news3.txt

[MrBenchley]

16. Pike County man gunned down in his driveway (KY)

"PIKEVILLE, Ky. - A Pike County man is dead of multiple gunshot wounds and his neighbor is under arrest for murder, authorities said.
Kentucky State Police said Robie Coleman, 75, of Pikeville, was found in his driveway about 10 a.m. EDT on Wednesday in the Broad Bottom neighborhood. Coleman was transported to the Pikeville Medical Center where he was pronounced dead.
Estill Newsome, 78, of Pikeville was lodged in the Pike County Detention Center, charged with murder."

http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/news/state/9385074.htm

[MrBenchley]

17. No new information on shooting death (MT)

"Helena detectives offered no new information Thursday surrounding the death of a 59-year-old Helena man, whose body was discovered behind his downtown office early Wednesday morning.
The body of Bryon Frazel Jr. was found by a passer-by around 6 a.m. on Wednesday at 734 Helena Ave.
Mickey Nelson, Lewis and Clark County Coroner, said Frazel had sustained "at least one" gunshot wound to the upper body, which was found lying near the open door of his pickup truck. "

http://www.helenair.com/articles/2004/08/13/helena/a01081304_04.txt

[MrBenchley]

19. Apparent murder-suicide leaves two men dead (MS)

"McHENRY - Two men are dead following an apparent murder-suicide late Wednesday at a home on Campground Road.
Stone County Sheriff Mike Farmer late Thursday confirmed residents' reports that one was Jeffrey Lee Overstreet, a candidate for the Stone County District 4 supervisor's race in 2003. Overstreet, 47, also owned a used car dealership in Gulfport.
Public records show Overstreet lived at the home where deputies found one of the bodies in the yard and the other inside the house. The shooting appears to be a domestic incident, according to the Sheriff's Department."

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/local/9388036.htm

[MrBenchley]

20. Hempfield man recovering from gunshot wound to head (PA)

Another family made safer with guns...

"A Hempfield Township man who authorities said was shot in the head by his son in June said on Thursday that his health is improving.
Thomas Harper, 47, of 124 Ray St., Wegley, went to yesterday's preliminary hearing for his son, Keith Alan Harper, 23, of the same address. The younger Harper's hearing on attempted homicide and other charges was postponed to a later date in District Justice Mary DiClaudio's Jeannette office.
"I'm doing half-decent," the father said. "I'm doing much better than they thought I was." "

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/westmoreland/s_208054.html

[MrBenchley]

23. Man Shot To Death In City's Latest Murder (KY)

"(LOUISVILLE, Ky., August 13th, 2004, 8:00 a.m.) -- Gunfire early this morning has left one man dead and Metro Police investigating the city's latest homicide.
The body of a man was found at 4 a.m. behind a building in the 4300 block of Tuscarora Way. Police say the victim had been shot multiple times and died at the scene.
The man was in his mid to late twenties and police say he did not live in the neighborhood. His name has not been released. He is the 39th homicide victim of the year in Louisville."

http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=2169633&nav=0RZFPpX3

[skippythwndrdog]

28. Bowling and Baze are such nice felows, too.

I know them both professionally, having worked on Death Row at KSP in Eddyville. I'm sure the execution provided by the state will be much less humane that the death these two pieces of scum visited upon their victims. No pity here.

I wonder how they'd like to die in the same manner as their victims.

[iverglas]

30. what do you imagine he's talking about ^^^ ?

I looked at your link -- hey, thanks, it crashed my netscape -- and I don't see nuttin about no Bowling and Baze.

[MrBenchley]

31. Who knows--or cares?

I figured it's yet another failed atempt to disrupt the thread...like the "classified ad" act above....

[iverglas]

33. yeah

That one obviously resulted from my failure to start that campaign to get J/PS posts off the front page ...

[FeebMaster]

34. Why would you want to get J/PS posts off the front page?

You do post here, after all.

[iverglas]

37. and there MrBenchley had kicked it just for you

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=78262&mesg_id=78300&page=

[FeebMaster]

38. Oh I read it when you posted it. (nt)

[iverglas]

39. well then I just give up

You read my reason for wanting to get J/PS threads off the front page when I posted it.

So I guess there must have been some other reason for your asking me:

Why would you want to get J/PS posts off the front page?

But far be it from me to try to guess what it was.

[FeebMaster]

40. Well most of the first one was pretty incoherent

and I wasn't even sure you were serious so I figured if I asked here I might get a better answer. See, usually when someone asks a question, it's because they want an answer to the question they asked. There is generally not some secret underlying agenda that you have to guess at.

[iverglas]

41. here ya go

I find it utterly tiresome to be subjected to the tossed off remarks of people who have no intention of engaging in any discussion, but whose remarks have a habit of becoming springboards for reams of droning, self-congratulatory posts, saying nothing that hasn't been said six hundred and seventy-five million billion times before in this forum.

[FeebMaster]

42. Well then

I agree. But taking J/PS posts off the front page isn't going to stop that.

[skippythwndrdog]

44. Actually I was posting to another board and popped this into the wrong

window. FYI, it references two inmates on death row who have filed an appeal on the grounds that execution is torture.

On the brighter side, when are you two getting hitched?

[NorthernSpy]

43. I believe...

... that Skippy is offering his opinion about another story that is reachable from the link that Mr. Benchley posted:


http://www.wave3.com/Global/story.asp?S=2170436


Mary

[iverglas]

47. I did consider that ;)

And that's why I clicked on the link in the first place ... and then when it crashed my netscape, I abandoned the effort.

But still. It wasn't what you'd call a "response" to the post it was posted in reply to. And there wasn't exactly any internal clue as to what the hell it was even about.

Sometimes this place reminds me of an evening I spent on the rolling lawns of the elegant house I found for me and 17 of my best friends to live in back in 1970 ...

A fine summer night, some fine MDA, the city spread out at our feet, and one of the many people who hung out at our house for weeks on end without paying rent listening to the solemn philosophical discussion three of us were having on the lawn, and occasionally interjecting a thought.

The problem was that he was a schizophrenic -- a very intelligent and informed and thoughtful schizophrenic -- and as the thoughts he interjected hovered in the space inside our little square, I would peer at them, studying them from above and below and beside, and usually manage to find the little hook by which they were attached to our conversation, the thread from another dimension that anchored them to ours.

Good practice, that has stood me in good stead many times ...

[skippythwndrdog]

49. Thanks.

I was posting an opinion to that very story, but unfortunately I didn't pay attention to which window I was posting in.

[MrBenchley]

29. Ahwatukee woman shot in road rage incident (AZ)

"An 18-year-old Ahwatukee Foothills woman shot in the back during a weekend road rage incident may face surgery later this week as police try to piece together what happened and find those responsible.
The driver of a red pickup fired a shot into the woman's car about 2:45 a.m. Sunday on the eastbound U.S. 60 freeway off-ramp at Dobson Road in Mesa.
"She was making a lane change and they were in her blind spot, and she was waving that she was sorry," said Christine Morris, the victim's mother."

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/northphoenix/articles/0813ar-roadrageZ3.html

[MrBenchley]

35. 23-year-old shot dead at Near-Northside house (IN)

"A man was fatally shot at a cousin's Near-Northside home Thursday, police said.
Ronnell Lancaster, 23, died on the porch of a single-story home in the 1100 block of West 27th Street. Lancaster's last listed address was on Michigan Road.
The cousin's name was not immediately released."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/0/169856-1680-009.html

[MrBenchley]

36. Details still unclear in shooting (MI)

"While clothes gently swayed on a laundry line, rippling yellow police tape that encircled the home jarred Daugherty Road from its rural tranquility.
Inside the white modular home, state police investigators examined the scene of Thursday's baffling double shooting, which left Patricia "Patty" F. Goebel, 42, dead and husband Charles R. Goebel, 44, critically wounded.
Around 2:20 a.m., Columbia Township police were called to the couple's home at 9710 Daugherty Road on a report of a suicide.
When officers arrived, the woman was found dead and her husband wounded in a bedroom. A handgun was recovered from the home, state police said. "

http://www.mlive.com/news/jacitpat/index.ssf?/base/news-9/109241137932860.xml

[MrBenchley]

45. Search continues for fatal shooting suspect (IN)

"Eden -- Hancock County Sheriff's detectives continued Thursday investigating the shooting death of an Eden man.
Brett Dobbins, 44, was found dead Tuesday morning in his driveway in the 2100 block of Eden Road. He suffered two gunshot wounds to his back.
Detectives have determined that the gunshots did not come from the direction of the road, eliminating the possibility of a drive-by shooting, said Hancock County Sheriff's Deputy Bridget D. Foy."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/8/169864-3468-009.html