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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 11:52 AM
Original message
Dispelling a Myth About Guns
Some people have the mistaken idea that the Second Amendment grants an individual the right to own a gun...but that's only a myth being spread by the NRA and some of the scummiest politicians and public figures on earth.

In fact, the Second Amendment SPECIFICALLY puts arms in the context of a WELL-REGULATED militia defending a free STATE (in other words, those organizations that have evolved into today’s National Guard). The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state. In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress. The Supreme Court of the United States and every federal appeals court have held uniformly that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to bear arms independent of the right to be armed as part of a well-regulated militia.
Gun nuts often produce a supposed quote from Samuel Adams proposing an amendment to the Massachusetts ratifying convention such that the US Constitution should ‘never construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.'" Besides the FACT that this proposal cannot be actually attributed to Adams, there is also the FACT that the convention then voted to turn down that specific proposition.
Another gun nut quote often produced is this by George Mason at Virginia's U.S. Constitution ratification convention: "I ask, sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people....To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." The quote is cobbled together out of two bits said two days apart (the second half was actually said before the first). Never heard of that famous Founding Father George Mason? Don’t feel too bad…he’s obscure mostly because he voted AGAINST adopting the US constitution.
The Supreme Court and Federal District courts have consistently ruled that gun control is constitutional.
The NRA has been the main source of this lie about the meaning of the Second Amendment. Former Chief Justice Warren Burger, a staunch conservative and gun owner, called the NRA's position on the 2nd amendment an outright fraud. In its entire history, the National Rifle Association has never challenged any gun law anywhere in any court on Second Amendment grounds. That’s never as in not once. No way, no place, no how. The old saying is, you put your money where your mouth is. What does it say about the NRA that they will not do this?

"The ACLU agrees with the Supreme Court's long-standing interpretation of the Second Amendment that the individual's right to bear arms applies only to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia. Except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of weapons by individuals is not constitutionally protected. Therefore, there is no constitutional impediment to the regulation of firearms." --Policy #47

"Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm."
U.S. v. Warin (6th Circuit, 1976)

http://archive.aclu.org/library/aaguns.html
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Wild Bill Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Courting Disaster
"Those who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right are courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like." — Alan Dershowitz
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And when Dershowitz becomes chief justice
maybe what he said will be worth hearing...but so far it isn't worth a pitcher of warm spit....

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denverguy Donating Member (42 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. still true...
witness the illegality of some political ads during certain time frames
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billbuckhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. The second amendment is so worthless Ashcroft defends it
If fascism in America stands, the 2nd amendment will be last amendment standing. The Bush regime proves that the 2nd amendment is worthless in today's age.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yeah, the NRA was WAY pissed off about that...
Now that they can't run ads under phony names as the election draws near, but have to identify themselves AS the NRA, there's a good chance more voters are going to be turned off by them than not...it's why now they're trying to pretend to be a news organization to break the campaign finance laws. So much for "responsible law-abiding gun owners," eh?

Funny thing, by the way: although they're the chief source of that "The Bill of Rights covers only individual rights" bullshit, they didn't blink for an instant charging into court to announce that their collective first amendment rights had been violated....

Even funnier, when they lost that case, it wasn't because the Bill of Rights covers only individual rights...it was because there's nothing unconstitutional about campaign finance reform, however much the gun lobby wants to pretend their blood money is "free speech."
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. typical...
...attacking a Dem
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Roe, that's not an attack....
You ought to wander over to some place like Highroadrage or glocksuckers.com if you want to see what real attacks on Democrats look like.

Or you could just go visit Ted Nugent's ugly little klavern.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Of course it wasn't an attack...
..having your opinion compared to a pitcher of warm spit is always taken as a compliment. yeah
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. When it's that piss-poor an opinion
it's an apt description.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. So it is ok to criticize a Dem...
...when you don't agree with them on a particular subject.
Just checking on the ground rules here.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Gee, roe, funny the NRA's lies about Kerry don't faze you
but suddenly you feel like Alan Dershowitz is under attack...

Just checking on the hypocrisy....
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #30
34. By the way, roe....
if you're so hot and bothered, feel free to respond to post number 6 and tell us what Alan means....
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
28. Is that Dershowitz, the plagarist?
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn10112003.html


or

The guy who called a distinguished theologian at Harvard anti-semitic when he signed a petition for Harvard divestment of Israel?

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=254140
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Sounds like a real swell Democrat to me--NOT!!
Funny how our "pro gun democrats" don't ruffle a feather when the NRA lies about Kerry and Edwards...but get bent out of shape by mild criticism of someone like this, ain't it?
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Wickerman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. I post the 2nd example because I know the 2nd person affected -
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 04:46 PM by lunabush
a very tried and true liberal, and basically Dersh tried to have his job because he dared have an opinion that was contrary his own. In effect, when called on signing an unpopular petition Hanson refused to back down.

Nevermind that Hanson has written several books on Israel from the historical/theological perspective and has more overall knowledge of the state than Dershowish could ever hope to have. Dershoplag plagiarizes in his attempt to twist facts to support his own pop culture view of modern day Israel, truly sad stuff.

edit cause I forgot what I was trying to say... :shrug:
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. You'll notice no link to the Dershowitz opinion
wonder if it was from the O'Reilly Factor or from Scarborough Country?
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DavidMS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #28
43. Norm Finkelstein (the man who revealed the Dershowitz Hoax) has more
information at his website.

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com

Including a chart of the discredited Peters work and the text of Dershowitz's book and subsequent correspondence.

At this point, I believe Dershowitz has impeached his own credibility.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Interesting...
Thanks for posting...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. By the way, what are "the same means" Alan is pissing and moaning about?
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 12:25 PM by MrBenchley
The collective rights argument is firmly based on the historical record and actual court decisions....it's the "individual rights" crowd that is depending on outright lies...
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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. THANK you. thank you, thank you.
n/t.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Any time...
By the way, wonder why the only "individual rights" quote anybody's dredged up so far is from Alan Dershowitz? It's not like John AshKKKroft or Ann Coulter have been silent on the issue.

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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. Damn...
...quote a repub and you get piled on. Quote a Dem and you STILL get piled on.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
35. Jeeze, roe...feel free to put up another one...
After all, didn't the RKBA crowd have that guy who was cheerleading for torture?

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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. I'm confused?
"Amendment II
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

"Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

"Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

"Wisconsin State Constitution
Article I, Section 25
The people have the right to keep and bear arms for security,
defense, hunting, recreation or any other lawful purpose."

So where does that leave me - do I have to turn in my trap shotgun or what? Do I really have the right to own this thing?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Oh yeah, my question was waaaay right wing!
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 01:36 PM by Dolomite
When a simple "yes" would have sufficed, you honor me with your offensive, non-answer. Thanks.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Any time...
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 01:39 PM by MrBenchley
I'm always ready to give right wing talking points the respect they deserve. Especially when they recur with such tedious fequency.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=60464
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Dolomite Donating Member (689 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The Wisconsin Constitution RW?
Too, too funny.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #12
39. More "RW" talking points from the Supreme Court...
After describing at length what is meant by the term "militia" and what sort of arms were to be kept, the Supreme court then wrote:

From US V. Miller:
"Most if not all of the States have adopted provisions touching the right to keep and bear arms. Differences in the language employed in these have naturally led to somewhat variant conclusions concerning the scope of the right guaranteed. But none of them seem to afford any material support for the challenged ruling of the court below.

What is the challenged ruling that is mentioned above?
The supreme court overturned the lower court's ruling on this basis: "In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense.

Some obvious questions flow from the above statement of the Supreme Court.

To whom do the state constitutions guarantee a right to keep and bear arms? Answer: Overwhelmingly the states guarantee a right to keep and bear arms to the individual citizens.

But what sorts of arms are fall under the state constitutions RKBA provisions? Arms that are of the type that would be used for the common defense in a militia or by an individual citizen acting in his own defense. Weapons that normally serve a criminal purpose are not covered by RKBA provisions -such as switchblades and other concealable weapons(hence the Miller court' citation of Aymette vs. State of tenn).





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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. I think the clear point is that
you do not gain the right to own it through the US Constitution. On the other hand, without specific federal regulation to the contrary, yeah you can own it. Obviously.

Its just frustrating, and this is not directed at you, when people go on about how the II amendment alone grants them the right to own guns, because IMO it doesn't.
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FeebMaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Of course not.
After all, the bill of rights doesn't grant rights.
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gatlingforme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
13. Where is my baton? I have an urge to fling it in the air. I am going
straight to Iraq and turn in my guns. Whew, I am so glad I saw your post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 02:48 PM
Response to Original message
16. A look at some of the players...
Do you suppose Schumer and Corzine are the bad guys? Or AshKKKroft?

"Wednesday, May 8, 2002
Washington - Senator Jon S. Corzine (D-NJ) in a letter today, criticized Attorney General John Ashcroft for seeking to expand the scope of the Second Amendment already well-established in case law.
Monday night, in a brief to the Supreme Court the Justice Department for the first time announced its belief that the Second Amendment protects the right of individuals to keep and bear arms, not just the collective right of states to organize militias.
"At a time when gun violence is a major problem for Americans, this misinterpretation threatens to undermine appropriate and lawful initiatives to protect public safety," said Senator Corzine. "It is the job of the Justice Department to enforce the Constitution as the Supreme Court has interpreted it, not to unilaterally rewrite constitutional law"
Senator Corzine voiced specific concerns regarding Ashcroft's current stance in light of representations he made to the United States Senate during his confirmation. During a contentious hearing on his nomination, Ashcroft stated unequivocally his understanding that as Attorney General his role would be to enforce the laws as written. "

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Second+Amendment%22+collective+right+Ashcroft&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=90&sa=N

"US Senator Chuck Schumer today criticized the Justice Department's sudden change of interpretation of the Second Amendment, after decades of long-held policy. For over sixty years, the Justice Department has interpreted the Second Amendment as applying to those with a reasonable relationship to a well regulated militia. Now, in a stunning reversal of long-held policy, the Justice Department has argued before the Supreme Court that the Constitution broadly protects the rights of individuals to own firearms.
Schumer made the following statement at a press conference today:
"Yesterday, the Justice Department used footnotes in two Supreme Court briefs to announce a massive change of course in our nation's gun control policy. For the first time in 60 years, the federal government is saying that the right to bear arms is an individual right.
"This decision wasn't made after discussion, debate, and open dialogue. It wasn't made in consultation with Congress and the states. And it wasn't put forward with the kind of detail and analysis that such a significant policy shift would usually come with. Instead, it was done undercover, buried in footnotes."

http://www.senate.gov/~schumer/SchumerWebsite/pressroom/press_releases/PR00975.html


On the other hand, Larry Pratt and Brent Bozell both stick up for Crisco John and his lies...
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turnkey Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
17. The Missouri Constitution...
Seems to interpret the 2nd. Amendment quite well for me. Even the last sentence has been interpreted by the state supreme court to allow the carrying of concealed weapons.
Things are good in the Show-Me state! :)
------------------

Missouri Constitution
Article I
BILL OF RIGHTS
Section 23

August 28, 2003




Right to keep and bear arms--exception.
Section 23. That the right of every citizen to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property, or when lawfully summoned in aid of the civil power, shall not be questioned; but this shall not justify the wearing of concealed weapons.


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. When Missouri becomes a sovereign country
you'll be a lucky duck, won't you?
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turnkey Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. What can I say...
I'm a state's rights kinda guy. :D
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-26-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. There's a shitload of that talk on the pro-gun side....
Edited on Thu Aug-26-04 03:30 PM by MrBenchley
It's not really fooling anybody, either....

"As a member of the Federalist Society and leader of the Religious Right, Attorney General (and NRA life member) John Ashcroft espouses the value of state's rights. His effort to overturn the state of Oregon's Assisted Suicide Law, however, demonstrates how quickly he will intervene in a State's democratically legislated law when this law conflicts with his religious beliefs. Much of the work of the Justice Department is now focused on overturning state laws. "

http://www.theocracywatch.org/states_rights2.htm

"Twenty-two years ago, (pro gun and former NRA convention keynote speaker) Trent Lott, now the Senate majority leader but then a Mississippi congressman, told a political gathering that if the United States had elected the segregationist candidate Strom Thurmond to the presidency "30 years ago, we wouldn't be in the mess we are today".
The phrasing is very similar to remarks made by Senator Lott at a 100th birthday party for Senator Thurmond last week.
The Clarion-Ledger in Jackson, Mississippi, reported Senator Lott's earlier comments in a November 3, 1980, report about a rally for the presidential campaign of Ronald Reagan in Jackson at which Senator Thurmond was the keynote speaker.
Then Senator Thurmond declared: "We want that federal government to keep their filthy hands off the rights of the states."
For many supporters and opponents of civil rights, the phrase "state's rights" stood for the right of states to reject federal civil rights legislation. "

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/12/11/1039379883779.html?oneclick=true


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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 02:26 AM
Response to Original message
36. What a pantload!
Quoting Bench:
"The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state." (end quote)

Bench, that is a pantload, and a Statist pantload at that. The Founders believed that government exists to serve the people, NOT the other way around, as Madison points out quite clearly and repeatedly throughout Federalist 46:

Federalist 46:
"RESUMING the subject of the last paper, I proceed to inquire whether the federal government or the State governments will have the advantage with regard to the predilection and support of the people. Notwithstanding the different modes in which they are appointed, we must consider both of them as substantially dependent on the great body of the citizens of the United States. I assume this position here as it respects the first, reserving the proofs for another place. The federal and State governments are in fact but different agents and trustees of the people, constituted with different powers, and designed for different purposes. The adversaries of the Constitution seem to have lost sight of the people altogether in their reasonings on this subject; and to have viewed these different establishments, not only as mutual rivals and enemies, but as uncontrolled by any common superior in their efforts to usurp the authorities of each other. These gentlemen must here be reminded of their error. They must be told that the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone, and that it will not depend merely on the comparative ambition or address of the different governments, whether either, or which of them, will be able to enlarge its sphere of jurisdiction at the expense of the other. Truth, no less than decency, requires that the event in every case should be supposed to depend on the sentiments and sanction of their common constituents."

(Federalist 46 continued)

"That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism. Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion, that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession, than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors. Let us rather no longer insult them with the supposition that they can ever reduce themselves to the necessity of making the experiment, by a blind and tame submission to the long train of insidious measures which must precede and produce it."

Contrary to your claims:
1)State governments are agents of, and advantages to, the people.
Not the other way around!

2)The people are armed to "defend thier common liberties", and to defend "the rights of which they would be in actual possession".
Not to defend the political powers of the state governments.

Also Federalist 46 predates the Bill of Rights and is instead defense of the Federalist system in that Madison explains how that system will balance forces so that neither the Federal or State governments will be in a position to abuse the people.

Quoting Bench:
"In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress. The Supreme Court of the United States and every federal appeals court have held uniformly that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to bear arms independent of the right to be armed as part of a well-regulated militia." (end quote)

Where does Hamilton argue that "in order to bear arms in a militia..."? That is not quite what Hamilton says now is it?
And what does Hamilton say about the people at large? Are they to be armed despite thier lack of regular training? (yes)

Where does the Supreme Court say there is no individual right to bear arms "independent of the right to be armed as part of a well regulated militia". The actual wording of Miller is:

" In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a ‘shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length’ at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument. Certainly it is not within judicial notice that this weapon is any part of the ordinary military equipment or that its use could contribute to the common defense. Aymette v. State of Tennessee, 2 Humph., Tenn., 154, 158. "

Furthermore,neither the Miller court, nor the Aymette Court cited in Miller, required any showing that the defendants were enrolled in any sort of milita. The actual language used by the Supreme Court in MIller is quite broad and they require only a "reasonable relationship", not proof of actual service or enrollment in the National Guard. In fact the Miller court defines "milita" very differently than does Silveira.


(Bench also cited the following)
"Since the Second Amendment. . . applies only to the right of the State to maintain a militia and not to the individual's right to bear arms, there can be no serious claim to any express constitutional right to possess a firearm."
U.S. v. Warin (6th Circuit, 1976)

With due respect to the lying bastards in the 6th Circuit, the second amendment makes NO mention whatever of a "right of the state" in the second amendment, and certainly no mention of a "right to maintain a militia". However, there is a "right of the people to keep and bear arms" EXPRESSED in the second amendment, and we might expect that to have something to do with "the people" (as opposed to the state) and something to do with keeping and bearing arms (meaning possessing and using weapons as per the Supreme Court in Miller).



Federalist 28 shows just what a pantload the National Guard'State Militia argument really is. It is clear that the Federalist are arguing that the people can throw thier weight either way, in support of the federal, or in support of the state government, which ever the people decide -not what the STATE decides!.


From Federalist 28:
"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance.


The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the state, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. The natural strength of the people in a large community, in proportion to the artificial strength of the government, is greater than in a small, and of course more competent to a struggle with the attempts of the government to establish a tyranny. But in a confederacy the people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!"





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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. Yeah, your post WAS a pantload, hans....
Edited on Sat Aug-28-04 08:42 AM by MrBenchley
Nomatter how desperately you want to play amateur shyster, the courts interpret the Constitution...not the NRA.

When the gun loonies filed their lawsuit to overturn Contra Costa County's ban on .50 caliber public menaces, they filed that lawsuit on First Amendment grounds, not Second Amendment grounds.Do you think that was a typo? Do you think that was because they forgot about that individual rights thing? Or do you think that they knew exactly what dishonest shit that claim is, and didn't want to get laughed out of court?

Now be sure and tell us how liberal judges are lying....and only folks like Fat Tony Scalia and Cross-Burnin' Charlie Pickering tell the truth.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #37
38.  Since you are playing amateur historian, you might at least
get your facts straight, and try to draw logical conclusions from evidence that you can muster to support your claims.

You made a number of assertions in your original post that simply do not fit the historical facts, and which are not supported by the sources that you cited (of course you make mostly vague references, not not actual quotes from the original sources).

Now rather than replying to my counter-arguments, you spin off on a tangent. Could it be that you know that your arguments are horseshit and you do not wish to defend them?

Where is that mention of a "State militia" in the federalist papers?
After 5 or 6 months, I would have thought that you would have found at least one mention of a "state militia" by now.


From Federalist 28:
The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the state, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. The natural strength of the people in a large community, in proportion to the artificial strength of the government, is greater than in a small, and of course more competent to a struggle with the attempts of the government to establish a tyranny. But in a confederacy the people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized! (end quote)


1) What are the people defending?
Answer: "...the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them..."


2) Do the citizens have thier only defense as part of a state militia?

No,

"The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!"


and

"If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance."



As in Federalist 46 (attributed to Madison), Federalist 28 (Hamilton)
argues that the federalist system is an aid the people in that it provides a defense against invasion/usurpation of thier rights by either the national or state governments. The right of defense belongs to the people, and it thier rights the people would be defending, whether they were organized by a state government in opposition to the federal, or whether they were fighting against a state government that had tried to invade thier rights.







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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. I got my facts straight, hans....
And it's interesting to see you dodge the question...do you think the lawyers for the case in Contra Costa forgot there was a Second Amendment?

If only they had you to play semantic games with the Federalist Papers and change their plain meaning, perhaps they'd have tried Second amendment grounds instead of First, eh?
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. If so, then it should be easy for you to cite some language...
from the Federalist papers to back up what you say.

Instead you dodge and bring up an issue that was not part of your initial post, rather than defend the false claims you made in that post.


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Answer the question then, hans....
Or do you think no one in Contra Costa county knows what the Federalist Papers are?

"it should be easy for you to cite some language...
from the Federalist papers to back up what you say.
"

And from Federalist 29, the very beginning: "To the People of the State of New York: THE power of regulating the militia, and of commanding its services in times of insurrection and invasion are natural incidents to the duties of superintending the common defense, and of watching over the internal peace of the Confederacy. "

Do you think that the mind of Alexander Hamilton was incapable of wtriting the sentence: "To every individual in the State of New York: You have the indiivdual right to have as many guns as you want" if that is what he meant?
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thomas82 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. Read this
Summary
The original intent and purpose of the Second Amendment was to preserve and guarantee, not grant the pre-existing right of individuals, to keep and bear arms. Although the amendment emphasizes the need for a militia, membership in any militia let alone a well regulated one, is not required to exercise the right to keep and bear arms.




Introduction

The Second Amendment:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
One does not have to belong to a well regulated militia in order to have the right to keep and bear arms. The militia clause is merely one, and not the only, rationale for preserving the right. The Founders were expressing a preference for a militia over a standing army. Even if today's well regulated militia were the National Guard, the Second Amendment still protects an individual right to keep and bear arms.

There is no evidence from the writings of the Founding Fathers, early American legal commentators, or pre-twentieth century Supreme Court decisions, indicating that the Second Amendment applied only to members of a well regulated militia or that the sole purpose of this amendment was to preserve the right of states to keep their militias.

Evidence of an Individual Right

In his popular edition of Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1803), St. George Tucker, a lawyer, Revolutionary War militia officer, legal scholar, and later a U.S. District Court judge, wrote of the Second Amendment:

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, and this without any qualification as to their condition or degree, as is the case in the British government.
In the appendix to the Commentaries, Tucker elaborates further:
This may be considered as the true palladium of liberty... The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Whenever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction.
Tucker's remarks are solid evidence that the militia clause was not the sole reason for preserving the right of the people to keep and bear arms. Tucker specifically mentions self-defense. This indicates two things: The scope of the right to keep and bear arms was not restricted to military purposes or the common defense (just such a provision was rejected by the Senate), and that "the people" means individuals, not a collective entity, and not a state.
(William Blackstone was an English jurist who published Commentaries on the Laws of England, in four volumes between 1765 and 1769. Blackstone is credited with laying the foundation of modern English law and certainly influenced the thinking of the American Founders.)

In the Federalist Papers, No. 29, Alexander Hamilton clearly states membership in a well regulated militia is not required for the right to keep arms:

What plan for the regulation of the militia may be pursued by the national government is impossible to be foreseen...The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious if it were capable of being carried into execution... Little more can reasonably be aimed at with the respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped ; and in order to see that this be not neglected, it will be necessary to assemble them once or twice in the course of a year.
---The Federalist Papers, No. 29.
After James Madison's Bill of Rights was submitted to Congress, Tench Coxe (see also: Tench Coxe and the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, 1787-1823) published his "Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution," in the Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 He asserts that it's the people (as individuals) with arms, who serve as the ultimate check on government:
As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow-citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
"Coxe's defense of the amendments was widely reprinted. A search of the literature of the time reveals that no writer disputed or contradicted Coxe's analysis that what became the Second Amendment protected the right of the people to keep and bear "their private arms." The only dispute was over whether a bill of rights was even necessary to protect such fundamental rights." (Halbrook, Stephen P. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment". Originally published as 26 Val. U. L.Rev. 131-207, 1991).
Earlier, in The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788, while the states were considering ratification of the Constitution, Tench Coxe wrote:

Who are the militia? are they not ourselves. Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birth-right of an American...The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people.
William Rawle's "A View of the Constitution of the United States of America" (1829), was adopted as a constitutional law textbook at West Point and other institutions. In Chapter 10 he describes the scope of the Second Amendment's right to keep and bear arms:

The prohibition is general. No clause in the constitution could by any rule of construction be conceived to give congress a power to disarm the people. Such a flagitious attempt could only be made under some general pretence by a state legislature. But if in any blind pursuit of inordinate power, either should attempt it, this amendment may be appealed to as a restraint on both.
This is another quote where it is obvious that "the people" means individuals since Rawle writes neither the states nor the national government has legitimate authority to disarm its citizens.
(In 1791 William Rawle was appointed as a United States Attorney for Pennsylvania by President George Washington, a post he held for more than eight years. He was also George Washington's candidate for the nation's first attorney general, but Rawle declined the appointment.)

A lengthier quote from Rawle, and more quotes from St. George Tucker are presented in the quotes from commentators section.


More quotes from the Founding Fathers.

The Early Supreme Court

Although the Supreme Court did not directly address the meaning of the Second Amendment in the 19th Century, in dicta, the Court stated (Presser v. Illinois, 116 U.S. 252 <1886>):

It is undoubtedly true that all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved military force or reserve militia of the United States as well as of the States, and in view of this prerogative of the general government...the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, so as to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security, and disable the people from performing their duty to the general government.
At the time of this decision the entire Bill of Rights was considered inapplicable to the states. It served as a limitation upon only the federal government (Barron v. Baltimore, 1833). Regardless of this limitation, the Presser court wrote that the right to keep and bear arms existed for "all citizens capable of bearing arms" and the states could not infringe upon this right.

More information regarding Supreme Court cases.

Individual Rights and the Militia

The militia clause was never meant to limit the right to keep and bear arms. Rather it was the "chief political reason for guaranteeing the right against governmental infringement. Keeping and bearing arms would be protected for all lawful purposes, but self-defense, hunting, shooting at the mark (i.e., target shooting), and other nonpolitical purposes had no place in a federal Constitution which delegated no power to regulate these activities. Since Congress could raise and support armies, the superiority of the militia in securing a "free" country must be declared." See Halbrook, Stephen P. "The Right of the People or the Power of the State Bearing Arms, Arming Militias, and the Second Amendment". Originally published as 26 Val. U. L.Rev. 131-207, 1991).

The following is excerpted from To Keep and Bear Arms: The Origins of an Anglo-American Right, Joyce Lee Malcom, Harvard University Press, 1994:

The Second Amendment was meant to accomplish two distinct goals, each perceived as crucial to the maintenance of liberty: First, it was meant to guarantee the individual's right to have arms for self-defense and self-preservation. Such an individual right was a legacy of the English Bill of Rights. This is also plain from American colonial practice, the debates over the Constitution, and state proposals for what was to become the Second Amendment. In keeping with colonial precedent, the American article broadened the English protection. English restrictions had limited the right to have arms to Protestants and made the type and quantity of such weapons dependent upon what was deemed "suitable" to a person's "condition." The English also included the proviso that the right to have arms was to be "as allowed by law". Americans swept aside these limitations and forbade any "infringement" upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.
These privately owned arms were meant to serve a larger purpose as well, albeit the American framers of the Second Amendment, like their English predecessors, rejected language linking their right to "the common defense". When, as Blackstone phrased it, "the sanctions of society and laws are found insufficient to restrain the violence of oppression," those private weapons would afford the people the means to vindicate their liberties.

The second and related objective concerned the militia, and it is the coupling of these two objectives that has caused the most confusion. The customary American militia necessitated an armed public, and Madison's original version of the amendment, as well as those suggested by the states, described the militia as either "composed of" or "including" the body of the people. A select militia was regarded as little better than a standing army. The argument that today's National Guard, members of a select militia, would constitute the only persons entitled to keep and bear arms has no historical foundation. Indeed, it would seem redundant to specify that members of a militia had the right to be armed. A militia could scarcely function otherwise. But the argument that this constitutional right to have weapons was exclusively for members of a militia falters on another ground. The House committee eliminated the stipulation that the militia be "well-armed," and the Senate, in what became the final version of the amendment, eliminated the description of the militia as composed of the "body of the people." These changes left open the possibility of a poorly armed and narrowly based militia that many Americans feared might be the result of federal control. Yet the amendment guaranteed that the right of " the people" to have arms not be infringed. Whatever the future composition of the militia, therefore, however well or ill armed, was not crucial because the people's right to have weapons was to be sacrosanct. As was the case in the English tradition, the arms in the hands of the people, not the militia, are relied upon "to restrain the violence of oppression"

The Constitution gave to the federal government broad authority over state militia. Was the Second Amendment meant to placate states fearful about this loss of control? In fact not one of the ninety-seven distinct amendments proposed by state ratifying conventions asked for a return of any control that had been allocated to the federal government over the militia. Sherman's proposal that some power be returned to the states was rejected by the drafting committee. In any event, the Second Amendment does nothing to alter the situation. Indeed, that was precisely the complaint of the anti-Federalist Centinel in a discussion of the House version of the arms article. The Centinel found that "the absolute command vested by other sections in Congress over the militia, are not in the least abridged by this amendment." Had the intent been to reapportion this power some diminution of federal control would have been mandated. None was.

... George Mason had attempted to add... a proviso during the convention when he moved to preface the clause granting Congress authority to organize, arm, and discipline the militia with the words "And that the liberties of the people may be better secured against the danger of standing armies in time of peace." A strong statement of preference for a militia must have seemed more tactful than an expression of distrust of the army. The Second Amendment, therefore, stated that it was the militia, not the army, that was necessary to the security of a free state. The reference to a "well regulated" militia was meant to encourage the federal government to keep the militia in good order.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-28-04 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Wow...where'd you swipe that pantload?
Is that from that guy Levinson who also thought torutre was just hunky-dory....

It's also hilarious to see old Tench Coxe and George Mason dredged up yet again as a "founding father"....how often do we have to point out that Coxe switched sides several times during the Revolution and that people like John Adams considered him a scumbag? Meanwhile Mason is the guy Wedtech Ed Meese named his diploma mill after....Mason is the right wing loonies' favorite founding father...mostly because he voted against the Constitution, making his opinion on it pretty much worthless.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Seems pretty clear that Hamilton was addressing Article 1, Sec 8
and not the Bill of Rights which did NOT YET EXIST when Federalist 29 was written(see first boldface). Either you are woefully ignorant of the history that you cited earlier or your are spreading manure, either way it is the lamest of arguments.

Furthermore Hamilton was defending the NATIONAL government's control of the militia, NOT the STATE governments. He does not use the phrase "state militia" nor does he suggest that the control of the militia be given over to the individual states. When Hamilton does write "the State", this is referring to the Federal government, the Union, NOT one of the several states(See below in boldface and underlined).

Hamilton does clearly write that the people at large ought to be armed. He does NOT write that the individual states ought to have weapons stockpiles.

Lastly Hamilton uses the militia as a reference to citizens(see below in boldface and underlined, and Not to 18th century equivalent of National Guard units.

(From Federalsit 29 continued from where you left off)
It requires no skill in the science of war to discern that uniformity in the organization and discipline of the militia would be attended with the most beneficial effects, whenever they were called into service for the public defense. It would enable them to discharge the duties of the camp and of the field with mutual intelligence and concert an advantage of peculiar moment in the operations of an army; and it would fit them much sooner to acquire the degree of proficiency in military functions which would be essential to their usefulness. This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union ``to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, RESERVING TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY THE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS, AND THE AUTHORITY OF TRAINING THE MILITIA ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS.''
Of the different grounds which have been taken in opposition to the plan of the convention, there is none that was so little to have been expected, or is so untenable in itself, as the one from which this particular provision has been attacked. If a well-regulated militia be the most natural defense of a free country, it ought certainly to be under the regulation and at the disposal of that body which is constituted the guardian of the national security. If standing armies are dangerous to liberty, an efficacious power over the militia, in the body to whose care the protection of the State is committed, ought, as far as possible, to take away the inducement and the pretext to such unfriendly institutions. If the federal government can command the aid of the militia in those emergencies which call for the military arm in support of the civil magistrate, it can the better dispense with the employment of a different kind of force. If it cannot avail itself of the former, it will be obliged to recur to the latter. To render an army unnecessary, will be a more certain method of preventing its existence than a thousand prohibitions upon paper.
In order to cast an odium upon the power of calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the Union, it has been remarked that there is nowhere any provision in the proposed Constitution for calling out the POSSE COMITATUS, to assist the magistrate in the execution of his duty, whence it has been inferred, that military force was intended to be his only auxiliary. There is a striking incoherence in the objections which have appeared, and sometimes even from the same quarter, not much calculated to inspire a very favorable opinion of the sincerity or fair dealing of their authors. The same persons who tell us in one breath, that the powers of the federal government will be despotic and unlimited, inform us in the next, that it has not authority sufficient even to call out the POSSE COMITATUS. The latter, fortunately, is as much short of the truth as the former exceeds it. It would be as absurd to doubt, that a right to pass all laws NECESSARY AND PROPER to execute its declared powers, would include that of requiring the assistance of the citizens to the officers who may be intrusted with the execution of those laws, as it would be to believe, that a right to enact laws necessary and proper for the imposition and collection of taxes would involve that of varying the rules of descent and of the alienation of landed property, or of abolishing the trial by jury in cases relating to it. It being therefore evident that the supposition of a want of power to require the aid of the POSSE COMITATUS is entirely destitute of color, it will follow, that the conclusion which has been drawn from it, in its application to the authority of the federal government over the militia, is as uncandid as it is illogical. What reason could there be to infer, that force was intended to be the sole instrument of authority, merely because there is a power to make use of it when necessary? What shall we think of the motives which could induce men of sense to reason in this manner? How shall we prevent a conflict between charity and judgment?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. And you're still dodging the question...
Edited on Sun Aug-29-04 12:40 AM by MrBenchley
But it's all right, hans...by now the reason why you're dodging the question and playing tedious semantics games is obvious.

The reason the Contra Costa gun nuts didn't mention the Second Amendment or individual gun rights in their disgraceful lawsuit is because if they had they'd have been laughed right out of court. Hence this end run trying to use the First Amendment.

But I'm just mean enough not to bring out one hilarious bit of fun....

"the Bill of Rights which did NOT YET EXIST when Federalist 29 was written"
Gee, hans...if the Second Amendment didn't exist when the Federalist Papers were written...why did YOU bring up the Federalist Papers in the first place?

And also for the fun of it, here's another question you can dodge the answer to. Multiple choice this time:
Which of these words does not appear in the Second Amendment to the US Constitution?
a) state
b) people
c) militia
d) individual


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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 01:09 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. It's YOUR thread, YOU brought it up, and now YOU can't defend it.

So its just "Semantics" Bench?

You do not even have the correct timeline of events, let alone that you can not cite a single instance of the phrase "state militia" in the Federalist papers.




The correct answers to your question are
D) Individual
E) Collective


There is no mention of either word in the second amendment, there is only a mention of a "right of the people", and under standing supreme court precedent, that phrase should be interpreted as referring to an individual right, since that is how that phrase is used elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.




Why did YOU post these supposed "myths", and why do the collective rights advocates spin so furiously over the definition of the "Militia". The answer follows:


(from Silveira)
We believe the answer to the definitional question is the
one that most persons would expect: {b]“militia” refers to a state
military force. We reach our conclusion not only because that
is the ordinary meaning of the word, but because contemporaneously
enacted provisions of the Constitution that contain the
word “militia” consistently use the term to refer to a state military
entity, not to the people of the state as a whole. We look
to such contemporaneously enacted provisions for an understanding
of words used in the Second Amendment in part
because this is an interpretive principle recently explicated by
the Supreme Court in a case involving another word that
appears in that amendment — the word “people.”25 That same
interpretive principle is unquestionably applicable when we
construe the word “militia.”

“Militia” appears repeatedly in the first and second Articles
of the Constitution. From its use in those sections, it is apparent
that the drafters were referring in the Constitution to the
second of two government-established and -controlled military
forces. Those forces were, first, the national army and
navy, which were subject to civilian control shared by the
president and Congress,26 and, second, the state militias,
which were to be “essentially organized and under control of
the states, but subject to regulation by Congress and to ‘federalization’ at the command of the president.



(also from SILVEIRA v. LOCKYER)

On the one hand, the Constitution granted
Congress the power to prescribe methods of organizing, arming
and disciplining the state militias. U.S. CONST. art. I, § 8, cl. 15.

On the other, the states expressly retained the power to
appoint militia officers and provide the militiamen with their
training, in accordance with Congressional dictates, if any.



But that lying jackass Reinhardt can not keep up the ruse for long. He shows that the cited clause gives the states the power to train the militia , meaning (in U.S. CONST. art. I, § 8, cl. 15.) ” militiamen” and not some "state military entity" or "State military force".

But why does Reinhardt lie about the meaning of the term "militia"? Because he needs a way around the meaning of the words "the people" which the Supreme Court in Verdugo-Urquidez has said means the same as it is used elsewhere in the Bill of Rights.

The Judge concocts a lie to justify ignoring yet another Supreme Court decision, but he can not even maintain the ruse to the end of the his own opinion.


(From Silveira)
To determine that “militia” in the Second Amendment is
something different from the state entity referred to whenever
that word is employed in the rest of the Constitution would be
to apply contradictory interpretive methods to words in the
same provision. The interpretation urged by those advocating
the traditional individual rights view would conflict directly
with Verdugo-Urquidez. If the term “the people” in the latter
half of the Second Amendment must have the same meaning
throughout the Constitution, so too must the phrase “militia.”27
27Professor Jack Rakove, an eminent historian, in criticizing the logic underlying the traditional individual rights position, observes that“ ‘people’ is routinely defined (by advocates of the traditional individualrights position) intratextually, by reference to use in other amendments, but ‘militia’ leaps beyond the proverbial four corners of the document, and is parsed (by those advocates) in terms of a historically contingent definition of what the militia has been and must presumably evermore be.” Rakove, supra, at 124.



But it is not the "entity" that the states have the authority to train, it is the militiamen. One does not train an "entity" to march, shoot, etc.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #49
51. I brought it up and I defended it, hans....
Edited on Sun Aug-29-04 01:37 AM by MrBenchley
Now you're claiming the Federalist Papers are irrelevant...and yet you want to discuss little snippets of them out of context and piss and moan that they mean something they plainly do not.

"The correct answers to your question are
D) Individual
E) Collective
"
In other words you can't answer the question, so you want to play more semantic games. Or do you really want to pretend that "state," "people" and "militia" aren't collective terms?

And the reason I posted the "individual rights" myth is obvious...it's a fucking myth, no more true than "toads cause warts" or "step on a crack, break your mother's back"...and even the gun loonys in Contra Costa know it, even if they won't admit out loud. Which is why you keep dodging the question too.

"that lying jackass Reinhardt"
Somebody's lying, and it isn't Reinhardt. Or me.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Why not just admit your "error" and move on?
You falsely/wrongly claimed that the Federalist were written in defense of the Bill of Rights. That is just crap whether intentional or unintentional.

You also asked this question:
And from Federalist 29, the very beginning: "To the People of the State of New York: THE power of regulating the militia, and of commanding its services in times of insurrection and invasion are natural incidents to the duties of superintending the common defense, and of watching over the internal peace of the Confederacy. "

Do you think that the mind of Alexander Hamilton was incapable of wtriting the sentence: "To every individual in the State of New York: You have the indiivdual right to have as many guns as you want" if that is what he meant?



You were trying to make it seem that if Hamiliton had supported an individual right to bear arms he would have said so in Federalist 29. But Federalist 29 was not written in defense of the second amendment, rather it was written in defense of the powers granted to the Union in article 1, sec 8 of the US COnstitution. Your question was loaded and misleading, and premised on a false notion that Hamilton was defending the second amendment in Federalist 29.

What you ignore totallly is that Hamilton defended the Union, , the Confederacy, the State, federal government's power over the militia.
He made NO mention of a "state militia", but did mention the citizens in reference to the "militia" of article 1, sec 8 of the US Constitution. Federalist 29 undermines Reinhardt's claims, as does Reinhardt's own discussion of that same section of the Constitution including HIS OWN word "militiamen".



No one is claiming the Federalist is irrelevant. It just does not lend itself to the arguments you made, which were based on an erroneous premise that the Federalist was defense of the Bill of Rights.


No one is claiming that "people" & "militia" are not collective nouns.

It is Reinhardt definition that fails. He claims the word "milita" is a refernce to an entity everywhere in the constitution, but then he refers to the "militiamen" when discussion Art 1, sec 8. He supplies the evidence himself that shows that the word "militia" is NOT a refernce to an entity everywhere it is used in the Constitution. So his justification for ingnoring the Supreme Court precedent regarding "the people" does not hold water.







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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. Because there's no error...now answer the question.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. The Federalist was written in 1788, and the Bill of Rights in ....?


You are either lying or woefully deficient in knowledge of the topic that you posted on.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #60
62. And hans avoids the question again
because the answer blows his sophistry out of the water completely...
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. In case you "forgot" your own argument, I'll refresh your memory.

(From YOUR initial post)
Some people have the mistaken idea that the Second Amendment grants an individual the right to own a gun...but that's only a myth being spread by the NRA and some of the scummiest politicians and public figures on earth.

In fact, the Second Amendment SPECIFICALLY puts arms in the context of a WELL-REGULATED militia defending a free STATE (in other words, those organizations that have evolved into today’s National Guard). The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state. In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress. The Supreme Court of the United States and every federal appeals court have held uniformly that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to bear arms independent of the right to be armed as part of a well-regulated militia.
(end quote) (my emphasis)



Forgetting one's argument seems to be catching. Your pal Reinhardt lamely claims not to know the meaning of the word "keep" in the second amendment, but earlier in the very same decision(Silveira) he writes:

The Miller Court also observed more
generally that “ith the obvious purpose to assure the continuation
and render possible the effectiveness of
the declaration and guarantee of the Second Amendment
were made. It must be interpreted and applied with that end
in view.” Id. Thus, in Miller the Supreme Court decided that
because a weapon was not suitable for use in the militia, its
possession was not protected by the Second Amendment
. As
a result of its phrasing of its holding in the negative, however,
the Miller Court’s opinion stands only for the proposition that
the possession of certain weapons is not protected, and offers
little guidance as to what rights the Second Amendment does
protect. Accordingly, it has been noted, with good reason, that
he Supreme Court’s jurisprudence on the scope of Second] mendment is quite limited, and not entirely illuminating.”
Gillespie v. City of Indianapolis, 185 F.3d 693,

(end quote)


and though he is clearly aware that "keep" means "possession", he must deny that knowledge in order to make the collective right argument seem remotely plausible. Of course IF Reinhardt were to admit that "keep" refers to possession, and bearing arms also refers to an indivudal's actions, then the game is up. So instead he feigns ignorance and then proposes a conjunctive meaning to the phrase "to keep and bear arms" as a way out of the mists of his own feigned confusion.




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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. My memory is pefectly goddamn fine, hans......
and your argument is sitill lame semantic horseshit. Now answer the question. Why didn't the Contra Costa loonys sue on Second amendment grounds, if your claim is even remotely true?
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #52
54. How so Bench? You make a false claim, and I call you on it,...


then you want to dodge the untruth that you told by bringing up yet another issue.

It is not mere "semantics" to put events in proper chronological order.


You claimed the Federalist was written in defense of the Bill of Rights. YOU WERE WRONG! Just admit it.


Then maybe I will look into your other (which I can only assume at this point to be diversionary) argument.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. You're dodging the question, hans...
And it's obvious why...

"The 85 Federalist Papers were written between October 1787 and May 1788 by Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, and John Jay. Through publishing them, the authors hoped to both explain the new Constitution to the people of America and to garner their support for it."

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/usconstitution/
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. If you knew that, why did you make the FALSE claim that
The Federalist was written in defense of the Bill of Rights?


(From YOUR initial Post)
In fact, the Second Amendment SPECIFICALLY puts arms in the context of a WELL-REGULATED militia defending a free STATE (in other words, those organizations that have evolved into today’s National Guard). The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state. In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress. The Supreme Court of the United States and every federal appeals court have held uniformly that the Second Amendment does not confer an individual right to bear arms independent of the right to be armed as part of a well-regulated militia.
(end of BS)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #59
64. Answer the question, hans....
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #52
55. You forgot the 'r' (n/t)
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. And you forgot to answer the question...
but the reason why is obvious.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-29-04 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. As obvious as the FACT that the Federalist was written BEFORE

the Bill of Rights?,

as obvious as the fact that Homilton was defending the powers granted to the Union under Article 1, Sec 8 of the US Constitution and not the BIll of Rights which did not exist when the Federalsit papers were written? Pray tell.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 09:13 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Answer the question, hans....
Why don't the Contra costa gun loonies sue under the Second Amendment?
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 06:39 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I answered your initial post and you have been dodging ever since.


Why don't you admit you were wrong -then we can move on to your other "argument".


You can say I am dodging all you want, but you are the one who has been caught telling a whopper, so I am going to just keep kicking this thread until you admit that you were not truthful, or that you had made a mistake, which ever is the case.

The longer you delay, the longer your "error" stands for all to gawk at.







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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #65
69. Answer the question, hans...
Why did the Contra Costa gun loonies sue under the First Amendment and not the Second?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
67. seems pretty obvious to me
And I don't even know nuttin'.


The allegedly problematic assertion:

The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state. In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress.

The alleged problem: that the Federalist Papers pre-date the 10 amendments to the US Constitution known as the Bill of Rights.


The obvious fact:

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/6-8/documents/constitution/background.html
(just the first result on a google search for constitution "united states" "bill of rights" debated 17*):

The Constitution was finally finished on September 12, 1787 and made public. It did not contain any sort of Bill of Rights, even though that question had been heavily debated. ... Because there was so much interest and debate regarding individual freedoms, a Bill of Rights became law on December 15, 1791.
Note that the "regarding individual freedoms" part is the commentary of the author of the article I am citing, and I am not citing it as authority for that characterization; Federalist Paper 46 speaks for itself in that regard:
http://federalistpapers.com/federalist46.html

To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.

It is absolutely plain that these folks were talking about -- and defending the idea of a constitutionally protected right to organize -- militias under public control, i.e under the control of individual state governments, and that the sole purpose for those militias was to head off some bizarre attempt by the federal government to do dastardly deeds.

Some here might do well to read a little more of this stuff:

... In the contest with Great Britain, one part of the empire was employed against the other. The more numerous part invaded the rights of the less numerous part. The attempt was unjust and unwise; but it was not in speculation absolutely chimerical. But what would be the contest in the case we are supposing? Who would be the parties? A few representatives of the people would be opposed to the people themselves; or rather one set of representatives would be contending against thirteen sets of representatives, with the whole body of their common constituents on the side of the latter.

The only refuge left for those who prophesy the downfall of the State governments is the visionary supposition that the federal government may previously accumulate a military force for the projects of ambition. The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, if it could be necessary now to disprove the reality of this danger. That the people and the States should, for a sufficient period of time, elect an uninterupted succession of men ready to betray both; that the traitors should, throughout this period, uniformly and systematically pursue some fixed plan for the extension of the military establishment; that the governments and the people of the States should silently and patiently behold the gathering storm, and continue to supply the materials, until it should be prepared to burst on their own heads, must appear to every one more like the incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy, or the misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal, than like the sober apprehensions of genuine patriotism.

Incoherent dreams of a delirious jealousy ... misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal ... -- why, you'd think this Madison guy had been hanging out in the gun dungeon. But it seems they had their loons back then too.

And if what he regarded as "chimerical" is now in fact in the realm of the possible -- the notion that a federal government should indeed succeed in doing such dastardly things, with the complacent complicity of the people and their state governments -- then leaping lizards, The reasonings contained in these papers must have been employed to little purpose indeed, I'd say.

Ever so obviously, what was being talked about was the collective right -- of the states -- to freedom, as free states, from a despotic central government, a prospect that even then Madison found "chimerical". This discourse had absolutely not a single thing to do with the "right" of any individual to possess or "bear" -- take up -- arms against any government otherwise than as part of a concerted effort directed by a state government. Let alone to tote a pistol around in his/her pants on a whim.

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Vladimir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Aww iverglass
I was enjoying that little soap-opera exchange, and you had to spoil it with facts. Tut tut...
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. "misjudged exaggerations of a counterfeit zeal"
Sounds like the RKBA cause in a nutshell, doesn't it...

What's funniest is that hans has been trying to defend AshKKKroft's wet dream by putting up umpty-ump posts fussing over this or that snippet of the Federalist Papers wrenched out of context.
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #67
72. You got one thing right, you don't know ....

(from your post)
And I don't even know nuttin'.

The allegedly problematic assertion:

The Founding Fathers specifically noted this. Defending the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper 46, James Madison says that the people are to be armed so that they can form a state-regulated militia in order to defend the political powers enjoyed BY the state. In Federalist Paper 29, Alexander Hamilton argues that in order to bear arms in the militia, a citizen must submit to rigorous military training and discipline, as required by Congress.

The alleged problem: that the Federalist Papers pre-date the 10 amendments to the US Constitution known as the Bill of Rights.


The obvious fact:

http://bensguide.gpo.gov/6-8/documents/constitution/bac...
(just the first result on a google search for constitution "united states" "bill of rights" debated 17*):


The Constitution was finally finished on September 12, 1787 and made public. It did not contain any sort of Bill of Rights, even though that question had been heavily debated. ... Because there was so much interest and debate regarding individual freedoms, a Bill of Rights became law on December 15, 1791.
Note that the "regarding individual freedoms" part is the commentary of the author of the article I am citing, and I am not citing it as authority for that characterization; Federalist Paper 46 speaks for itself in that regard:
http://federalistpapers.com/federalist46.html
(end quote)


When, pray tell, was the Bill of Rights heavily debated? Not in 1788, in fact every time the anti-federalists tried to get a vote to hear amendments, they were voted down. This is because the Federalist wanted to get the constitution ratified, and to avoid a discussion of amendments that would have sidetracked the ratification process. Suppose Rhode Island tacked on 6 amendments, then New York another 11, then each would have to re-ratify the now amended constitution and the federalists might never have gotten the minimum number of nine states to agree on the amendments.




(you said)
It is absolutely plain that these folks were talking about -- and defending the idea of a constitutionally protected right to organize -- militias under public control, i.e under the control of individual state governments, and that the sole purpose for those militias was to head off some bizarre attempt by the federal government to do dastardly deeds.

and later:

Ever so obviously, what was being talked about was the collective right -- of the states -- to freedom, as free states, from a despotic central government, a prospect that even then Madison found "chimerical". This discourse had absolutely not a single thing to do with the "right" of any individual to possess or "bear" -- take up -- arms against any government otherwise than as part of a concerted effort directed by a state government. Let alone to tote a pistol around in his/her pants on a whim.



Why did MrBenchley, and now yourself, claim that the lack of a discussion about the rights of individuals (RKBA) in Federlist 29/46 is somehow telling, when in fact Hamilton, in Federalist 29, was defending the power of the Union over the militia as per Arcticle 1, Sec 8 ? Hamilton was NOT addressing the Bill of Rights at all since that would not even be drafted until after the Congress was elected and the following year. Nor was Madison addressing the Bill of Rights in Federalsit 46, but rather he was defending the federalist system and trying to show how it would tend facilitate a defense against tyrranny.






Federalist 29:
This desirable uniformity can only be accomplished by confiding the regulation of the militia to the direction of the national authority. It is, therefore, with the most evident propriety, that the plan of the convention proposes to empower the Union ``to provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the United States, RESERVING TO THE STATES RESPECTIVELY THE APPOINTMENT OF THE OFFICERS, AND THE AUTHORITY OF TRAINING THE MILITIA ACCORDING TO THE DISCIPLINE PRESCRIBED BY CONGRESS.

(the part in capitals is Art 1, Sec 8 of the US Cnstitution, that is what Hamilton was defending)



1) The federalists, Hamilton especially, wanted the militia to be under the control of the national government. This is stated repeatedly and defended by Hamilton throughout #29 and is hardly evidence in favor the "state militia" argument of Judge Reinhardt and others.

2) Hamilton refers to the militia as citizens, not as a National Guard unit, or any such 18th century equivalent. Note that Judge Reinhardt himself when discussing Art 1, Sec 8 also admits that this is a reference to "militiamen" and not an "entity", this admission undercuts the basis of the collective rights argument.

3)Lastly, in Federalist 29, Hamilton writes that he believes that "the people at large" are to armed. On this point his view was clearly in the majority - see the historical analysis in US v. Miller, and also see the militia act of 1792. It is no surprise whatever that there was no discussion of the second amendment, of the RKBA, or of any other specific right, since that was not the topic being addressed in these articles. The topic in Federalist 29 was Article 1, Sec 8, NOT the RKBA/second amendment.




In Federalist 28, Hamilton writes that the people can throw their weight onto either scale(in support of the federal or state governments) and that the government that has the support of the people will prevail. This could hardly happen if only the existence of "state militias" were contemplated. Federalist 28 provides evidence against the common claim that "the sole purpose for those militias was to head off some bizarre attempt by the federal government to do dastardly deeds". The defense of the people is the goal of the militia system, not the defense of the state governments or of the federal governments for that matter should either become tyrranical. The armed populace was to be a check on both levels of government, and the people could make use of one level of government when thier rights were invaded by the other level of government.

(from Federalist 28)
If the representatives of the people betray their constituents, there is then no resource left but in the exertion of that original right of self-defense which is paramount to all positive forms of government, and which against the usurpations of the national rulers, may be exerted with infinitely better prospect of success than against those of the rulers of an individual state. In a single state, if the persons intrusted with supreme power become usurpers, the different parcels, subdivisions, or districts of which it consists, having no distinct government in each, can take no regular measures for defense. The citizens must rush tumultuously to arms, without concert, without system, without resource; except in their courage and despair. The usurpers, clothed with the forms of legal authority, can too often crush the opposition in embryo. The smaller the extent of the territory, the more difficult will it be for the people to form a regular or systematic plan of opposition, and the more easy will it be to defeat their early efforts. Intelligence can be more speedily obtained of their preparations and movements, and the military force in the possession of the usurpers can be more rapidly directed against the part where the opposition has begun. In this situation there must be a peculiar coincidence of circumstances to insure success to the popular resistance.


The obstacles to usurpation and the facilities of resistance increase with the increased extent of the state, provided the citizens understand their rights and are disposed to defend them. The natural strength of the people in a large community, in proportion to the artificial strength of the government, is greater than in a small, and of course more competent to a struggle with the attempts of the government to establish a tyranny. But in a confederacy the people, without exaggeration, may be said to be entirely the masters of their own fate. Power being almost always the rival of power, the general government will at all times stand ready to check the usurpations of the state governments, and these will have the same disposition towards the general government. The people, by throwing themselves into either scale, will infallibly make it preponderate. If their rights are invaded by either, they can make use of the other as the instrument of redress. How wise will it be in them by cherishing the union to preserve to themselves an advantage which can never be too highly prized!










Madison's stated reason for writing Federalist 46 was to remind the enemies of the Constitution (the anti-federalists) that those who view the Constitution as a contest for power between the federal and state governments are mistaken. The people are the ultimate power.
Madison quite clearly writes that the state governments are advantages to the people, and that the people are armed. However MrBenchley argues that the people are to be armed only to defend the state governments, a claim for which there is no support in the federalist.

Federalist 46:
RESUMING the subject of the last paper, I proceed to inquire whether the federal government or the State governments will have the advantage with regard to the predilection and support of the people. Notwithstanding the different modes in which they are appointed, we must consider both of them as substantially dependent on the great body of the citizens of the United States. I assume this position here as it respects the first, reserving the proofs for another place. The federal and State governments are in fact but different agents and trustees of the people, constituted with different powers, and designed for different purposes. The adversaries of the Constitution seem to have lost sight of the people altogether in their reasonings on this subject; and to have viewed these different establishments, not only as mutual rivals and enemies, but as uncontrolled by any common superior in their efforts to usurp the authorities of each other. These gentlemen must here be reminded of their error. They must be told that the ultimate authority, wherever the derivative may be found, resides in the people alone, and that it will not depend merely on the comparative ambition or address of the different governments, whether either, or which of them, will be able to enlarge its sphere of jurisdiction at the expense of the other. Truth, no less than decency, requires that the event in every case should be supposed to depend on the sentiments and sanction of their common constituents.





Parting shots:


To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence.


Which state was it that had a militia of half a million citizens?



Fighting for thier common liberites? I thought Bench said they were armed only to defend the political powers enjoyed by the state governments?

Who armed these people Madison spoke of? (under the various militia acts before and after, they were to arm themselves - see US V. Miller)



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library_max Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #36
76. I submit! I surrender!
I don't know whether it's the constant dropping of the names of the founding fathers or the erudite quibbles about the hidden meanings of irrelevant verbiage or just the endless avalanche of logorrhea, but I find myself no longer able to resist the overpowering weight of your arguments, Hans.

And so I find it quite tragic that you have so little influence over the actual interpretation of the law in this country. Someone as learned and logical as yourself should certainly be bringing his enlightenment to the nation as a whole, and not just to the heathens of JPS.

I mean, it's scandalous, really, how the judiciary in this country has favored gun restrictions in every single case and never decided one Second Amendment case in favor of a gun owner. Must be all those left-wing gun-grabbers like Antonin Scalia that keep the Supreme Court from exposing Silveira for the vile trash that it is.

So I think you should go for it, Hans. Put your hat in the ring the next time a vacancy opens up on the Supreme Court. If Bush gets reelected, you'd have a shot.

/sarcasm off/
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-30-04 06:56 PM
Response to Original message
66. that militia stuff ...
Normally I stay outa all this, 'cause it just ain't my concern.
I can just sit back and regard it all as infinitely dumb, which
is pretty much what I do do.

But today I was browsing through some enlistment records from WWI,
which are viewable on line (Canadian records, i.e., for enlistments
between 1914 and 1918 inclusive).

I noticed quite a number of US-born enlistees. Not possible to tell
whether they were immigrants to Canada or US citizens who came to
Canada specifically to enlist (i.e. before the US got around to
joining the war). Some seemed to be the latter, since they listed
next of kin at US addresses.

I found this one interesting, and you should please forgive the
giant graphic.
Note question 10:
"Have you ever served in any military force?"
The answer is:
"No - 5 years USA militia, 1901 to 1906"
(which seems odd for someone born in 1893 ...).
(This one enlisted just over the border from Detroit, in Windsor,
so I suspect he entered Canada specifically for the purpose of
enlisting.)

My question:

I'm just curious what that would have been referring to, at that
time. Pure idle curiosity, really. What did 5 years in the USA
militia mean in 1901?


Just for the info of anyone who may have had family who served in
the Canadian Expeditionary Forces 1914-18 -- you can search for
their enlistment record here:
http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02010602_e.html

If you know someone who died while in the Canadian armed forces
in any military action, you can find his/her name in one of the
Books of Remembrance kept in the Parliament Buildings - the
illuminated pages are now viewable on line:
http://www.vac-acc.gc.ca/general/sub.cfm?source=collections/books
(Click "the six books", then the appropriate book, then the year
of death, then the appropriate alphabetical listing.)





http://data4.collectionscanada.ca/netacgi/nph-brs?s1=richards&s2=bert&s3=&Sect4=AND&l=20&Sect1=IMAGE&Sect2=THESOFF&Sect5=CEF6PEN&Sect6=HITOFF&d=CEF6&p=1&u=http://www.collectionscanada.ca/archivianet/02010602_e.html&r=1&f=G

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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
71. Federalist #46 and #29 - CONTEXT
What you say about court rulings is outdated by a year or more, as far as the federalist papers...I encourage everyone to read the source material you refer to.

WELL REGULATED...at the time meant 'well functioning' as in a well regulated watch kept good time. It did not mean government Regulation. Also - look at Federalist #46.... where madison was making a point that the federal government's army would not bully the common people.....

#46
Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of *citizens* with arms in their hands, *officered by men chosen from among themselves*, fighting for their common liberties....

#29
To oblige the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens, to be under arms for the purpose of going through military exercises and evolutions, as often as might be necessary to acquire the degree of perfection which would entitle them to the character of a well-regulated militia, would be a real grievance to the people, and a serious public inconvenience and loss. It would form an annual deduction from the productive labor of the country, to an amount which, calculating upon the present numbers of the people, would not fall far short of the whole expense of the civil establishments of all the States. To attempt a thing which would abridge the mass of labor and industry to so considerable an extent, would be unwise: and the experiment, if made, could not succeed, because it would not long be endured. Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to the people at large, than to have them properly armed and equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #71
73. Who ARE you trying to kid?
By the way, love the section you've chosen out of 29....which shows that whatever the Founding Fathers meant by militia, they surely DIDN'T mean "the great body of the yeomanry, and of the other classes of the citizens"....

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jtjathomps Donating Member (31 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. Sigh.
The whole thing is an argument AGAINST regulation and regular
training of the militia - lest they be diciplined to a degree
that they be conscripted by the federal government.  The last
line tells the tale - and indicates that the populace be armed
OUTSIDE a state militia.


" Little more can reasonably be aimed at, with respect to
the people at large, than to have them properly armed and
equipped; and in order to see that this be not neglected"
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hansberrym Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-31-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. Really Bench -
Do ya think Hamiliton intended that only a few "state militias" be diciplined? Or haven't you ever read the part that immediately preceded what was cited earlier:


The project of disciplining all the militia of the United States is as futile as it would be injurious, if it were capable of being carried into execution. A tolerable expertness in military movements is a business that requires time and practice. It is not a day, or even a week, that will suffice for the attainment of it. To oblige the great body of the yeomanry...


Can you tell us which "state miltia" was to be left out?

It is plain from the context that "all the militia of the United States" is a reference to everyone capable of bearing arms. Hamilton was not in favor of training everyone, based on an economic argument, but he was in favor af arming everyone.


And as the Supreme Court said:
The signification attributed to the term Militia appears from the debates in the Convention, the history and legislation of Colonies and States, and the writings of approved commentators. These show plainly enough that the Militia comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. ‘A body of citizens enrolled for military discipline.’ And further, that ordinarily when called for service these men were expected to appear bearing arms supplied by themselves and of the kind in common use at the time. Blackstone’s Commentaries, Vol. 2, Ch. 13, p. 409 points out ‘that king Alfred first settled a national militia in this kingdom’ and traces the subsequent development and use of such forces
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