Zell Miller says he wishes he could challenge Chris Matthews to a duel.

[Lefty48197]

Did you see Zell's meltdown on Tweety's show tonight? It was a moment to remember! I thought this belonged in the gun dungeon.

[FeebMaster]

1. I think they should bring back dueling. (nt)

[Endangered Specie]

3. I agree...

Two gun nuts want to shoot at each other... be my guest.

[FeebMaster]

4. Doesn't have to be guns.

It could be swords or knives or whatever.

[Columbia]

6. Hmm.. interesting...

Should two parties be legally able to make an agreement to have a duel and absolve the winner of any criminal liability?

Sure, why not?

[FeebMaster]

7. Exactly

It's a completely consensual activity which harms no one but the participants. I see no reason for it to be illegal.

[Jack_DeLeon]

9. same here.

[LibLabUK]

25. Hmmm..

Apparently, rights just became even less 'inalienable'.

You guys sure are quick to want to allow the signing away of rights.

Lemme guess, you also don't see a problem with slavery either.... as long as it's consensual?

[FeebMaster]

27. What are you talking about?

Did you respond to the right post?

[LibLabUK]

30. No, I responded to the right post..

You suggested that it would okay with you for people to sign away their right to life.

If a right is 'inalienable' then it cannot be traded or stripped from a person. Consent, even informed consent, doesn't make it okay.

[FeebMaster]

31. First of all

they aren't signing away anything. A duel doesn't guarantee death for both participants.

Second, it's their life to spend how they choose. If a person has the right to life then they have the right to risk that life in whatever manner they choose or to end that life if it's their choice. If a person's life doesn't belong to himself, who does it belong to?

[Columbia]

32. Why to the state of course

[Lefty48197]

44. I think this is more of a "privacy right", and everybody knows

that the right wingers have ruled that there is no such thing.

[FeebMaster]

46. What does privacy have to do with dueling? (nt)

[DoNotRefill]

35. so are you saying....

that people don't have a right to die?????

[DoNotRefill]

34. I have no problem with consentual slavery....

as long as all parties are over 18, and consent can be withdrawn at any time by any party.

Freaky sex stuff isn't my cup of tea, but if other people want to do it, fine by me. If people get off on being chained up, or beaten, or whatever, good for them, at least they're getting off.

If people want to duel, fine by me. Same thing as boxing, or bungee-jumping, or any other ultra-hazardous thing.

[Paladin]

41. I Bet You're A Big Fan Of Non-Harmful Murder, Too......

"Consentual slavery." Jesus H. Christ.

[DoNotRefill]

43. you have a problem with people playing sex games?

why am I not surprised?

[skippythwndrdog]

8. Works for me.

Think of the prison overcrowding it would eliminate.

[Vladimir]

10. ROTFL

You can't be serious.

[FeebMaster]

11. Why not? (nt)

[Vladimir]

12. It would promote bullying

and its bad for the society - you end up having a lot of intelligent and useful people getting themselves killed over nothing. I think that's the reason it was banned originally...

[FeebMaster]

13. Bullying?

Dueling is a consensual activity. It's not a duel unless both parties agree to it.

[Vladimir]

14. Yes but it would encourage people

to go up to someone they don't like and go: 'You want a duel? What you a coward?' etc. Its just not very good for the fabric (not moral incidentally, i don't believe in morals) of society.

[FeebMaster]

15. Uh huh.

See the proper response to 'You want a duel? What you a coward?' would be "No."

[Vladimir]

16. Of course that would be a proper response

just like the proper response to a bully at school is to ignore them. Doesn't change the fact that the person involved is being bullied, or that some people can be manipulated into duelling in this way and lose their life because some jerk felt like shooting someone. Its the same reason why its illegal to kill someone even if they ask you to do it and sign an affadavit absolving you of all guilt.

[FeebMaster]

17. I think it would be less of a problem than you imagine

if for no other reason then bullies tend to not want to risk death or maiming. Putting a gun into the hand of the person you're bullying and giving them a chance to kill you with no legal repercussions doesn't sound like a sound bullying policy.

[Vladimir]

18. I wonder if this is true

if both parties were drunk for instance, and so on... i guess if you really wanted to, you could demand that it was signed in a court in front of witnesses and have cooling off periods and so on... but that would still leave you with other problems. The reason they outlawed dueling in Spain, for example, is that at one point 25% of Spanish male nobility didn't live to see their 20s. It was leading to a social breakdown.

[FeebMaster]

19. What does both parties being drunk have to do

with bullying? If two drunks want to fight a duel, more power to them. Cooling off periods. Yeah they work so well for people buying guns, I'm sure they'll be fabulous with dueling. :eyes: You folks need to come up with some new ideas.


The reason they outlawed dueling in Spain, for example, is that at one point 25% of Spanish male nobility didn't live to see their 20s. It was leading to a social breakdown.

I don't see the problem.

[Vladimir]

20. You don't see a problem with social breakdown?

I like society. I like the fact that government regulates the use of force so I don't have to worry about me or my friends or my relatives getting themselves killed over some trivial bullshit. But I doubt I am ever going to persuade you...

[FeebMaster]

21. I don't see the problem

with Spanish nobles killing each other off. I don't expect society to break down if dueling is legalized. If it becomes that much of a problem I guess you could always reillegalize it.


I like the fact that government regulates the use of force so I don't have to think about me or my friends or my relatives getting themselves killed over some trivial bullshit.

It's deja vu all over again. I hear the same argument from drug warriors all the time, so I'll give you the response I give them. Your friends and relatives can get killed over trivial bullshit right now.


But I doubt I am ever going to persuade you...

Not with lame arguments about drunks getting in fights you're not.

[Vladimir]

22. Yes they can

but its not generally something I worry about. If dueling was introduced, I would worry about it a hell of a lot more, becuase then there would be a socially and legaly justified way for person A to kill person B. Laws, believe it or not, do stop a certain amount of crime from happening.

Not with lame arguments about drunks getting in fights you're not.

Your claim was that bullying would not be a problem, because bullies wouldn't put themselves in a situation where they might die. This is patently untrue if alchol or similar substances are involved. Care to imagine what college campuses would look like if duelling was allowed?

PS Society was breaking down, that is why every country in Europe, and the USA, and I think most of the world, outlawed it eventually. It we don't learn from history and all that...

[FeebMaster]

23. Maybe you should worry about it.

"If dueling was introduced, I would worry about it a hell of a lot more, becuase then there would be a socially and legaly justified way for person A to kill person B."

There are already socially and legally justfied ways for person A to kill person B.


"Laws, believe it or not, do stop a certain amount of crime from happening."

Sure they do.


"Your claim was that bullying would not be a problem, because bullies wouldn't put themselves in a situation where they might die. This is patently untrue if alchol or similar substances are involved."

So this bully is going to take the guy he's bullying out drinking so he can get him to agree to a duel while inebriated so he can justifiably kill him preferably while he's still drunk and unable to properly defend himself?


Care to imagine what college campuses would look like if duelling was allowed?

Probably fairly similar to how they look now.


PS Society was breaking down, that is why every country in Europe, and the USA, and I think most of the world, outlawed it eventually.

Supporters of authoritarian laws always go on and on about society breaking down. The drug warriors do it. The gun grabbers do it. The alcohol prohibitionists did it. They're usually(always) full of it, though. I guess things weren't all that different back when they illegalized dueling.


"It we don't learn from history and all that..."

That's pretty funny coming from a person who supports gun control.


I'm going to sleep. Don't be offended if I don't answer for eight hours or so.

[Vladimir]

24. Hope you sleep well

There are already socially and legally justfied ways for person A to kill person B

Really? Name a legal way for Person A to kill Person B other than self defence, i.e. without person B having done anything to them first.

So this bully is going to take the guy he's bullying out drinking so he can get him to agree to a duel while inebriated so he can justifiably kill him preferably while he's still drunk and unable to properly defend himself?

People get drunk. Then they start fights. If you legalise duelling, a lot more of them might well end up in bloodshed or death.

Supporters of authoritarian laws always go on and on about society breaking down. The drug warriors do it. The gun grabbers do it. The alcohol prohibitionists did it. They're usually(always) full of it, though. I guess things weren't all that different back when they illegalized dueling.

Care to refute the facts? Please, I would like to see you prove to me that there was no social problem which led to duelling being outlawed.

[FeebMaster]

26. I didn't.

I was thinking about the legalities of dueling and started wondering if all 50 states had passed laws banning it. Certainly it was banned in some or maybe even most. I sort of doubt it was banned at the federal level. Maybe dueling is legal in some states, most likely ones that were admitted to the Union after dueling fell out of favor. Certainly you'd probably be charged with murder in this day and age, but if you could provide evidence that both parties consented, you might be able to use that as a legal defense. I sort of wish I cared enough to look into it more.


Really? Name a legal way for Person A to kill Person B other than self defence, i.e. without person B having done anything to them first.

Huh? That doesn't even describe a duel.



People get drunk. Then they start fights. If you legalise duelling, a lot more of them might well end up in bloodshed or death.

Might. Might. Might. Like I said before, if two drunks want to fight to the death, that's fine by me. I don't know how you think a duel would play out, but it's not like two drunk guys could just go out in the parking lot and shoot each other. Obviously if dueling were legal there would be legal standards defining a legal duel. A drunk guy standing over a corpse and saying "It was a duel!" probably isn't going to meet those standards. In fact, that sounds like a pretty clear cut case of murder to me. A legal duel is at the very least going to require a few witnesses and preferably signed statements from both parties. It's in both participants' interests to insure that there is as much evidence as possible to prove it was a legitimate duel so the survivor doesn't end up charged with murder.


Care to refute the facts? Please, I would like to see you prove to me that there was no social problem which led to duelling being outlawed.

What facts? Your vague claims that society would fall apart? Like I said, people who want to ban things always claim society is falling apart or is about to and they're always full of it.

[Vladimir]

28. Just two points

and then I have to go on a 2 week hiatus from this whole DU business - work calls as it were.

1) When you say it will require a few winesses and signed statements, there is a point there. If it was ever to be introduced (re-introduced), which I most emphatically do not think it should, this would be the very minimum needed.

2) I am not full of it when I claim that it was banned because society was falling apart. In a medieval society, 25% of the ruling class not reaching the age of 20 is a serious social problem. If you do not believe this, with all due respect Feeb, you need to read some history and sociology.

[FeebMaster]

29. I am simply saying

that I don't see it as a problem if a bunch of nobles kill each other off. Frankly, I think nobles killing each other off was probably a good thing in the long run.

To compare Spain a few hundred years ago to modern society as far as dueling is concerned is absurd. Despite your fears that drunks are going to be fighting duels in parking lots and on college campuses, I tend to think that even if dueling were legalized it would probably be extremely rare. Society just isn't into defending your honor to the death anymore.

Besides, like I said before, if society started to fall apart after legalizing dueling, you could always reillegalize it.

[DoNotRefill]

39. In our society today....

25% of the ruling class not reaching the age of 20 is a SOLUTION to problems....

[DoNotRefill]

38. heh...

"Really? Name a legal way for Person A to kill Person B other than self defence,"

looks to me like you just named a legal way for people to kill each other....

[DoNotRefill]

37. face it....

the planet is overpopulated. If people want to kill themselves (and remove themselves from the gene pool), that's A-OK in my book.

[DoNotRefill]

36. which is why...

people in unbearable agony are forced to suffer, out of some ill-founded "respect for life". It's the same old pro-life bullshit that the anti-abortion cretins use.

People should be able to die if that's what they want to do. Ideally, they should have a painless way to do it.

[lanparty]

2. The challengee get to choose the weapon ..

Tweety would choose the Microphone and bludgeon that old fuck to death. Zell needs to choose his words more carefully.

[Paladin]

5. Let Zell Be Zell

Word is, even some of the Repube delegates thought Zell's rant was way over the line, particularly when followed with the display of dementia on Chris Matthew's show. And keep in mind, all this right-wing drooling is from a guy who praised John Kerry as "...an authentic American hero," all of three years ago.

By the way: what's Zell's NRA legislative rating? 110%?

[gatlingforme]

33. DO YOU KNOW WHAT A METAPHOR IS???????

[UpsideDownFlag]

40. yes. how does it apply to zell miller?

[gatlingforme]

42. my mistake, I should have put (sarcasm), how does it apply to Zell?

the fact that he said it I guess would make it applicable. He said it to Chris M. in the interview right after his speech

[Lefty48197]

45. Hey! You guys hijacked my thread!

I want to talk about Zell's meltdown. He really lost it. I have to question his sanity after that outburst. One of the TV commentators even let it slip that several of his Georgia colleagues are questioning his mental condition. At which point do people of deterioriating mental capability LOSE their constitutional right to own guns?