Could use some help from someone who knows guns more than I do.

[Frodo]

Drudge is reporting that Kerry used a shotgun this weekend that he "tried to ban" last year.

I'm sure it's a "one-cycle" thing, but I've just got to know:

What exactly is different about that shotgun that you can tell it was something that should be banned? And why was it on the list to BE banned? It looks pretty normal to me.

[Irishladdie]

1. Don't listen to Sludge.

[Frodo]

2. Generally good advice.

Is there nothing "wrong" with the shotgun?

[hatrack]

3. Looks like your basic pump-action shotgun

What's Sludge saying, he's using a Streetsweeper or some such horseshit? Sludge - feh.

[Union Thug]

4. is that a pump action or a semi auto?

Is the slide long enough to accomodate a pump action?

Did Kerry try to 'ban' semi-auto shotguns?

[Truth is True]

6. Not pump. Semi-auto

It looks like a Remington 1100. Three-shot magazine, semi-auto action. Used for duck hunting, as well as clays, traps, etc.

[Frodo]

7. It was just the picture when I went there.

With one of his "teaser" headlines.

But it "breaks" at the stock like it was a breech loading type. I would think (and really don't know shotguns) that limits it to a single shot per barrel.

[Truth is True]

8. Trust me

It'd doesn't "break". It's either an 1100 or an 11/87.

http://www.remington.com/firearms/shotguns/shotguns.htm

Note the difference in the fore end stock between it and the 870, which is a pump.

[Frodo]

9. Just got me a "security violation" at work.

Thanks! :-p


Drudge has taken it down, so perhaps it was another shotgun and he just realized it. But one of the photos clearly showed a cartridge ejecting from a broken stock. That's part of what confused me.

[Frodo]

10. Found it in the cache.

[Truth is True]

12. Different shirt, different shotgun

different day. Kerry has been doing a lot of shooting lately.

[GumboYaYa]

13. That is a different gun. n/m

[rumguy]

15. There's nothing illegal about shotguns that load like that

That's the old school way of loading a shotgun...

[Lefty48197]

63. OUCH!

Is this a caption contest?

[ArkDem]

31. That is a Browning A5 automatic shotgun. Where are you seeing

this 'phantom' slide?

[Fovea]

5. Then Druge is 'mistaken'

Because a Remington 12Ga semi automatic is probably the most widely sold sports gun in the world. No sports shooter would want it banned. It would be like Tiger Woods wanting carbon shafts outlawed. How could such a rugged outdoorsman like Drudge have made such a mistake?
(They say a question well asked, answers itself)

[Lefty48197]

64. I can't picture Drudge carrying a shotgun

when he brought flowers to David Brock and asked him to be his "fuck buddy".

[GumboYaYa]

11. It looks like a Remington 1100.

In fact I'm almost 100% sure it is an 1100. I have one of those.

It is a semi-automatic. It holds three rounds unless you pull the plug and then it hold five rounds. It is most definitely not on the list of outlawed semi-automatics.

[LTR]

18. Drudge claims it's a Beretta

http://www.berettaweb.com/semi%20auto%20shotgun/A300.htm

What do you guys think?

[GumboYaYa]

21. It could be. The Beretta 303 looks a lot like the

Remington 1100. My 1100 is a hunting shotgun so I don't have that big recoil pad on mine, but I know that Remington and Beretta both make their competition guns with those big pads. Either way, the Beretta 303 is also a semi-automatic with a 3-4 round capacity and is not on the list of banned guns. Those two guns, the Remington 1100 and the Beretta 303, are the two most popular sport shotguns out there. No one, and I mean no one, who has ever been a hunter or shot skeet would ever propose banning either one of those guns.

[Hammie]

30. If I recall, the Berretta has a magazine bypass button

Underneath the ejection port. The gun pictured does not.

[LTR]

14. Here's what he says about it

http://www.drudgereport.com/dncg.htm

Ehhh, screw it - don't click on the link. Here's the whole thing:

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX TUE SEPT 07, 2004 11:46:05 ET XXXXX

KERRY COSPONSORED BILL BANNING GUN HE WAVES

Was Dem presidential hopeful John Kerry seen this weekend waving a gun which would have been banned if legislation he co-sponsored became law?

Kerry co-sponsored S. 1431 last year (“The Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2003) which would have banned a "semiautomatic shotgun that has a pistol grip.”

Opponents of the bill successfully argued how nearly all guns have "pistol grips," inluding millions of Browning Auto-5 shotguns produced since 1903.

Kerry was presented with the gun during a Labor Day stop in Racine, West Virginia.

"I thank you for the gift, but I can't take it to the debate with me," Kerry told a cheering crowd as he held up the device.

(Kerry's gun bill would also ban any "gift" transaction. Kerry did not submit to a waiting period or background check before he claimed the gun.)

Photos show Kerry's hand resting on the semiautomatic shotgun's "pistol grip."

Kerry's bill would ban millions of semi-automatics, including those with "pistol grips." (Section SEC. 2; (H) (ii))

Developing...

[Frodo]

16. Ok, so here's a question:

Wasn't that bill the reauthorization of the existing assault weapons ban? So was this weapon ALREADY banned?


And what is the big deal with a three-shot semi-auto shotgun? I don't really know shotguns, but I AM somfortable with almost all other types of weapons. Why is this more dangerous than any number of semi-auto handguns that I would consider FAR more deadly (and portable and concealable etc etc etc.)???

[FeebMaster]

24. S1431 isn't a straight reauthorization of the AWB

it's an expansion.

[FeebMaster]

22. While that shotgun might be affected by S1431

it's not because of it having a pistol grip, which it doesn't.

It would be this section of the bill it would fall under:

`(L) A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.'.

[Shrek]

32. Apparently it was a "pistol grip" as defined by the bill

Section 2(a)(42):

PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

That's a very broad definition, and falls well outside the bounds of what one would normally call a "pistol grip."

Nearlly all modern shotguns contain such a grip, and the law would have banned them if passed.

[FeebMaster]

33. I didn't catch that on my first few readings.

The current AWB uses the phrase a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;

[Lefty48197]

65. Not particularly suitable for sporting purposes?

The most popular hunting weapon in America?

[FeebMaster]

67. Hey I didn't write the thing.

a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event

Even if it isn't hit by that part of the bill, the hilarious pistol grip definition would be sure to take care of it.

(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

[Rosco T.]

17. This is what a 'pistol grip' shotgun looks like...

[FeebMaster]

23. You can have a shotgun with a pistol grip and

a shoulder stock. That would be affected too. Of course the one Kerry is holding in that picture has no pistol grip.

That doesn't mean it isn't potentially effected by the expanded assault weapons ban in the Senate.

[Hammie]

28. Wrong, sort of.

That is certainly a depiction of a pistol grip. So is the shotgun that Kerry is pictured holding. The type of sholder stock with a downward curving section immediately behind the reciever has been know as a pistol grip stock longer than I can remember. They stand in contrast to the straight grip stock that is commonly seen on lever action rifles, and some break action shotguns.

The proposed legislation apparently did call for the banning of semiautomatic shotguns with pistol grips. It would have banned just about every semiauto shotgun currently made. It is just the kind of law the Brady's, VPC, and the hardcore Senate gun grabbing contingent (we all know who they are) dream about.

[hansolsen]

19. Looks like Remington semi-automatic 12 gauge shotgun to me. And

here is the bad news for Kerry supporters. The Diane Feinstein wing of the party **has** been trying to ban "seni-auotmatic" guns -- which is what so called "assault weapons" merely are.

The problem with such bone headed legislation is that so called assault weapons are no more dangerous than the tens of millions of "hunting weapons" such as the one in Kerry's hand in this photo.

Trying to ban such guns has been a fool's errand and has cost us literally millions of votes in rural areas, and has not saved a single life.

Gun control legislation has actually resulted in the sale of many million of weapons to non hunters worried that if they don't buy now, they may not be a able to buy later. This issue has been a raving disaster for Dems.

Kerry understands this and is trying to turn it around, but he needs help. We need to rehabilitate every Dem gun control nut who still hasn't seen the light. Gun control, including the assault weapons ban, is bad policy, bad politics, and so stupid it makes every other Democrat look like a fool.

Get with the program. Gun control is over. Live with it.

[Frodo]

20. The problem with that theory is that John Kerry is NOT

named "Diane Feinstein".

There ARE plenty of Democrats (and more than a few of them live here on DU) who WOULD like to abn all firearms.

But none of them are running for President.

[hansolsen]

25. The problem with Dems who want to ban all firearms is that they present

their ideas as if we were discussing foreign policy over tea and crumpets, when we are actually discussing American civil war. When gun owners say, "from my cold dead fingers", they mean it.

Banning all firearms would require blood in the streets that would make the 1850 Civil War look like a cakewalk. Is that what you are advocating??

[Hammie]

29. Correct

His name isn't "Diane Feinstein" it is "John Kerry" and his name is listed, along with hers, as co-sponsor of the bill in question. Also listed are Schumer, Clinton, Boxer, Kennedy. Sponsor is the esteemed Frank Lautenberg.

On the birds of a feather theory, it would be entirely reasonable to conclude that John Kerry is a "turn them all in" gun grabber.

[MrBenchley]

27. So in other words, if you distort the assault weapons ban

which 80% of Americans support, you can pretend Kerry is trying to ban all guns....

"Gun control, including the assault weapons ban, is bad policy, bad politics, and so stupid it makes every other Democrat look like a fool."
Not even close to true.

[jtb33]

36. Very well put. n/t

[MrBenchley]

26. Basically, any right winger speaking about guns is lying....

and pretty much everything Drudge says is a flat-out lie....

[DoNotRefill]

34. See that thing sticking out by the pinkie of Kerry's right hand?

that's a pistol grip.

Semi-auto with pistol grip = banned under the enhanced AWB.

[FeebMaster]

35. Welcome to the dungeon. (nt)

[Frodo]

37. Dungeon?

Are you saying all gun control articles get moved here?

If so, it's a tacit admission that the gun control issue is a loser for us.

[FeebMaster]

38. Justice/Public Safety.

The gungeon or gun dungeon. I prefer just the dungeon, personally.

Not all gun control threads get moved here, although lately it seems like they do.

Gun threads up in GD scare some people. They show how pro-gun, or at least how not anti-gun, DU really is.

[Frodo]

40. Shocking!

I'm a southern (read "conservative") Democrat and have noticed that the DU population is WELL to the left of me. (e.g. preference polls with significant "what's wrong with Socialism?" numbers, pluralities for Kucinich, etc)

Yet a significant percentage are semi-rational about gun control?

If gun control is a weakening issue on a place like DU? Then the issue is largely over on the national stage. No wonder Kerry wants to be photographed hunting & sport shooting.

[FeebMaster]

41. I'd go so far to say

that the majority of DUers would consider themselves pro-gun. Certainly most support gun control of some kind, most people do, but take a bill like S.1431 for example and I don't think you'd find more than a third of DUers, at the very most, supporting something like that. There have been lots of polls and threads up in GD backing this up.

[Lefty48197]

66. Some people just prefer to keep the trash in the can

.

[enfield collector]

39. you sure got that right.

[UpsideDownFlag]

42. i wondered how long it would take this to make it to the Gungeon.

[FeebMaster]

43. It's been here for four hours. (nt)

[UpsideDownFlag]

45. i know.

there's been a couple of threads about it now.

[jody]

44. Either a Remington 1100 or 11-87 and gun control groups have tried

to ban all semi automatic firearms. This is a semi automatic.

[Lefty48197]

46. Drudge is a fucking idiot.

and he couldn't tell a Remington from a hole in the ground.

[Paladin]

47. You Got That Right

I don't for one minute believe that John Kerry wants to ban Remington 1100 shotguns. And it's going to take a lot better sources than Drudge and a few paranoid RKBA militant Gungeon posters---people who clearly hate Kerry's guts---to make me think otherwise.

You Gun Huggers who seize on every opportunity---no matter how dubious and/or right wing the source---to trash the Democratic candidate for President, are free to entrust your guns and your country to Bush/Cheney/Ashcroft by voting accordingly. And if guns are such a divisive, perilous issue for Democrats, why do you keep making so much fucking noise about them? I think the answer to that one is pretty obvious......

[FeebMaster]

48. So then, you haven't read S.1431?

You should. It was linked a few times in this thread.

[goju]

49. Say what?

Trust Bush/Asscrossed with my guns. From the same people who brought us the Patriot Act? No thanks. Ive had enough rights threatened, Id rather not continue down that path.

You really should read 1431 before spouting off. It has no chance of passing but you should get an idea as to what it entails.

Guns are a perilous issue for us. But dont take my word for it, just ask Clinton, Gore, or the 20 House members who lost in 2000 over that issue. Now, is there still a question as to why we are making noise about it?

[mosin]

50. The facts...

1. I don't hate Kerry's guts, so I assume I'm not one of the "paranoid RKBA militant Gungeon posters" to whom you referred. (I did not bring this issue up.)
2. I don't know which firearms Kerry really wants to ban, but he did sign onto S.1431 as a co-sponsor.
3. Signing onto a bill as co-sponsor implies support for a bill overall, if not in every specific detail.
4. S.1431 would ban all semi-automatic shotguns with "any other characteristic that can function as a grip" (i.e. all of them, including the Remington 1100 and 11-87).
5. Remington 11-87 semi-automatic shotguns are used by the military and federal law enforcement. S.1431 would create a rebuttable presumption that any firearms used by the military or federal law enforcement should be banned.
6. Remington 1100 and 11-87 shotguns are ordinary sporting shotguns.
7. Kerry -- at least through a spokesperson -- has stated that he does not want to ban the Remington 1100 shotgun.
8. Kerry should withdraw his support from S.1431 to conform with his stated position.

[goju]

51. Can you?

Not to be a smart ass (ok, maybe just a little ;)) but how much do you know about weapons? Im afraid alot of our anti gunners dont know nearly as much as they should. Im a gun owner of 46 years and I still learn tidbits here and there so Im not holding myself up as an example. But what is your level of knowledge concerning guns?

I smell another useless poll on the way.

[Paladin]

52. Actually, I Know A Lot About Guns

Guns and shooting and hunting used to be hobbies of mine; unlike FeebMaster, I even own a few firearms. I know a Remington 1100 when I see one. And I know a political smear effort when I see one, too. You RKBA types are using every opportunity to trash the Kerry campaign. For Christ's sake, think for a minute: why would a politician seeking national office deliberately support legislation that would outlaw what may be the most popular shotgun in the country? And why would so many of you gun-loving "Democrats" be so horny to believe such a ridiculous story? And why would I believe the story, when it's you guys and Matt Drudge and the gun lobby spreading it around?

[Columbia]

53. So, you have read S.1431 then?

[goju]

54. Hmmm

I might have believed you but, its not an 1100. I dont think you can recognize an 1100 when you see one. Your story is suspect.

[Lefty48197]

55. Here's a picture of the 1100 from the Remington website

It sure looks an awful lot like the one Kerry is holding.

[Columbia]

56. And the 11-87

[jody]

57. FACT: 1100 and 11-87 have interchangeable stocks and a variety

of barrels. The receivers, barrels, and trigger assemblies are not interchangeable but are so similar in design that I believe one would be hard pressed to definitely identify either one from a picture such as the two in this thread. Of course both the 1100 and 11-87 have a unique feature in the "carrier release" seen clearly on the bottom of the gun Kerry is holding.

[Paladin]

58. Here's How This Is Going To Play Out

Once all the smoke settles, the worst thing that John Kerry will be accused of is supporting a bill that had some imperfect drafting in it. It happens. All the time. And whether the gun is an 1100 or an 11-87 (quite similar looking, I admit), I still maintain that there is no way on earth that Kerry intended for such sporting arms to be banned or restricted. If you've got evidence that he did, get it up.

If that seems like a strange attitude to you RKBA militants who are having such a good time with this thread, it's because it's the kind of attitude that an honest-to-God Democrat ought to have in these circumstances. If you feel Kerry had more sinister motives, that just proves to me that you've gone over to the Dark Side---where I think most of you are already.

[jody]

59. I accept your defense of Kerry, but the larger point is that

gun-control groups who might have played a dominant role in drafting the "imperfect bill" will not stop their efforts to ban all guns. They are determined and subtle and may even use powerful politicians like Kerry who if he had closely analyzed the bill might not have supported it.

The best way for Kerry to show his support of RKBA would be to remove his name as sponsor of the bill. Now that his staff is or should be aware of their mistake, he should remove his name as sponsor. To leave his name as sponsor would strongly suggest that he supports banning guns like the 1100 and 11-87.

[FeebMaster]

60. So are you arguing that Kerry is incompetent?

or that he cosponsors legislation that he hasn't read?

Have you read S. 1431 yet?

[Romulus]

61. must be another "attack on Kerry" (eom)

[FeebMaster]

62. I hear there's a lot of those down here. (nt)

[Paladin]

68. Spare Me The Pathetic High School Debate Team Tactics

Of course, I'm not accusing Kerry of being incompetent. I'm saying he's a busy public servant, working in a system where not every piece of legislation is perfectly drafted or exhaustively proof-read. Once again, if you or your cohorts have any proof whatsoever that Kerry intended this legislation to impact sporting arms like Remington shotguns, let's see it. If not, how about doing us all a favor and shutting the hell up? Or is it going to be like this from now until election day---you and your RKBA radical friends grabbing every gun-related incident and attempting to magnify it to demonstrate Kerry's supposed shortcomings, and all the while trying to convince us that you're good Democrats. Turns my stomach to just think about it.

Do you own a gun yet?

[FeebMaster]

69. My high school didn't have a debate team.

Of course, I'm not accusing Kerry of being incompetent. I'm saying he's a busy public servant, working in a system where not every piece of legislation is perfectly drafted or exhaustively proof-read.

I don't know. S.1431 isn't that long. He probably should have read it before deciding to cosponsor it.


Once again, if you or your cohorts have any proof whatsoever that Kerry intended this legislation to impact sporting arms like Remington shotguns, let's see it.

I think the definition of pistol grip in S.1431 is pretty clear.

(42) PISTOL GRIP- The term `pistol grip' means a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip.

I mean if he hasn't read the bill then he hasn't read it. He probably shouldn't have decided to cosponsor a bill he hasn't read, though.


If not, how about doing us all a favor and shutting the hell up?

I'll pass.


Or is it going to be like this from now until election day---you and your RKBA radical friends grabbing every gun-related incident and attempting to magnify it to demonstrate Kerry's supposed shortcomings, and all the while trying to convince us that you're good Democrats.

I hate to break it to you, but I don't think it's going to stop after election day. Who is trying to display Kerry's shortcomings anyway? I've been repeatedly informed that DU supports any and all gun control except for a few of us crazy gun people and that 80-90% of the population at large supports almost as much. If Kerry is for gun control, that should be good right? If people keep pointing out the gun control that Kerry supports and all of these people are for it, well, that's just free advertising for Kerry I should think.


Turns my stomach to just think about it.

I feel for you.


Do you own a gun yet?

Not yet. Did you read S. 1431 yet?