Why didn't the AWB prevent Columbine or the DC snipers?

[Renaissance]

I would really like to know what went so terribly wrong. I thought the law was supposed to stop such horrific atrocities.

[teach1st]

1. Lady ran a stop light last year and hit me...

...I thought the traffic laws were supposed to stop that sort of stuff.

[Xipe Totec]

2. That's not a counter argument

I think he's making the same point; that the law did not prevent the Columbine tragedy.

[teach1st]

5. Counterpoint

The AWB didn't prevent some specific crimes so it's worthless.

THEREFORE

Traffic laws don't prevent specific accidents so they're worthless.


We don't know how many crimes the AWB did prevent.

[Renaissance]

17. I'm sure it prevented countless bayonettings.

Considering that the "ban" didn't actually ban anything (all pre-ban weapons were still perfectly legal)...I'd say with confidence that it didn't prevent a single crime.

[Xipe Totec]

18. Much Better

That's a valid counter point, one I can support.

[krkaufman]

20. "We don't know how many crimes the AWB did prevent."

Nor do we know how much more horrific some crimes may have been had the AWB not been in place.

[UNIXcock]

4. Great analogy

The Columbine-Killers did not violate any provision of "Assault Weapon" ban.

The firearms used in Columbine included two shotguns (like those used for duck hunting), a pistol and a legally-produced TEC-9 "assault weapon". The AWB did not stop those two UNDERAGE killers from illegally acquiring them or illegally bringing them to school or illegally murdering 13 people.

THE "ASSAULT WEAPON" BAN DID NOT TAKE GUNS OUT OF THE HANDS OF CRIMINALS.

[teach1st]

10. And traffic laws didn't prevent my accident

So traffic laws are worthless.

[realisticphish]

30. while yours is a valid point

the original post refered specifically to columbine. the poster was answering that original reference


:hippie: The Incorrigible Democrat

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renaissance]

9. Thanks for the name-calling.

I am asking an honest question. If the "assault weapons" ban was such a landmark effective piece of legislation, why didn't it work?

[DBtv]

21. How do you know how many senseless killings were avoided?

Just because a couple of psychotic kids committed mass murder doesn't prove that the legislation "didn't work".

I also question whether this is actually an "honest question".

[Renaissance]

25. It's as honest as I can be.

I really want to know exactly what part of a ban on bayonet lugs and folding stocks could have possibly prevented such terrible crimes.

[greendeerslayer]

56. none

As anyone who has handled and operated such weapons knows - flash hiders, bayonets, and collapsable stocks in no way increase the lethality of a weapon. The AWB was bullshit legislation, all it did was assure that yuppies could buy any gun they wanted and average working class guys were priced out of the market.

[UpsideDownFlag]

61. i'd like to know how you consider this not to be flaimbate.

nt

[krkaufman]

24. No, many on DU are against the AWB.

Democrat != AWB supporter

[Renaissance]

26. I am a proud gun-owning, anti-AWB Democrat.

I'm voting for John Kerry in spite of his misguided stance on this issue.

[Name removed]

36. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renaissance]

41. You don't believe that a Democrat could possibly be anti-AWB?

Perhaps you should hang out in the Justice/Public Safety forum more often. There's lots of us in there.

I'll gladly send you a scan of my voter registration card if you'd like.

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Renaissance]

48. Yes, I tripped over a river of bayonet lugs today.

I hope no cops were hurt.

[skippythwndrdog]

57. What more powerful and deadly?

The only thing the AWB could have possibly affected the potential lethal effect of any firearm was the restriction on magazine capacity. OH! WAIT! Pre ban, normal capacity (incorrectly called high cap mags by the controllers) were available throughout the ban period.

Magazine capacity over 10 rounds does not make any give round magically more powerful or deadly. It take one round to kill. Would you rather be shot with a muzzle loader or a single round from a tec-9? It's a circular argument. Both get you dead unless you're lucky enough to be hit in a non-vital area.

Try another straw man.

[FatSlob]

35. No, AWB supporter = Authoritarian

[DBtv]

40. Right, limiting socially destructive and dangerous activity is

evil authoritarianism.

Why forbid toxic and irresponsibly dangerous activities at all?

Let polluters pollute, allow defecation in the streets, don't force motorists to drive on the right side of the road,let business sell any item irrespective of it's safety.

"Hey, man, you're limiting my freedom!"

[TexasSissy]

6. No, it's not intended to stop all shootings by guns.

It's intended to stop the high-volume killings, I thought, which are primarily aimed at law enforcement officers. That's what I thought.

Hunting rifles were used at Columbine, is that correct? We can't ban those. People have a right to hunt, don't they?

I'm not in favor of banning all guns. But I see nothing wrong with bans that halt the sale and purchase of certain types of guns that the police tell us present a special danger to them, such as the type used in warfare, or whatever.

I have a 38 revolver. I don't want that banned, for sure. I have it for protection, and I think of it as the only chance I have if I'm ever faced with a thug in my home. But cops can cope with revolvers. Even hunting rifles. I don't really understand the semi-automatic thing or the importance of the grip, except I am guessing that there are some guns in particular that are popular with wackos and that have posed a problem in the past (like oozies?).

[Renaissance]

11. Cops can "cope" with revolvers and hunting rifles?

Please elaborate. Really, I want to know where you are going with this.

[UpsideDownFlag]

62. do you think a cop would rather face an ak47 or a glock? nt

[enfield collector]

12. err, handguns are the crime gun of choice~70% according to ATF,

so banning your 38 revolver would prevent more crimes than banning my FN-FAL did.

[enfield collector]

7. because crims don't obey laws?

[UNIXcock]

16. True

It's all about personal responsibility. IIRC the Columbine murders also used (or were intending to) propane tanks purchased at any grocery store rigged as bombs to kill humans.

[stopbush]

8. Did those attacks involve assault weapons (semi-automatic) or

conventional weapons? I don't know, I'm asking.

This looks like a red herring, false choice to me.

[Renaissance]

13. I don't know the difference.

Please define what a "conventional" weapon is.

[stopbush]

28. The kind that can't shoot 200+ rounds per minute. Service revolvers,

for example.

[FeebMaster]

34. Ed McGivern would disagree

if he were still alive.

I'm glad to see someone using more conservative figures than the usual 600+ rounds a minute we've been seeing a lot of lately.

[Renaissance]

42. For an "assault weapon" to fire 200 rounds per minute...

...you'd have to pull your trigger finger almost four times a second. That would create quite a cramp.

[enfield collector]

19. they used a tec-9, that was an assualt weapon. so no the AWB

didn't work in the case of columbine or any other crime. because crims don't obey laws.

[skippythwndrdog]

58. The tec-9 is not now, nor was it ever an assault weapon.

It was mis-named an assault weapon by the inane AWB.

[stopbush]

14. No law is meant to "stop" anything. Laws are enacted to prevent

acts from happening - as much as they can. If a law is broken, then penalties are incurred by the law breaker.

We had laws on the books against trading with the enemy, but that didn't stop Big Dick Cheney from doing just that with Saddam when Dickhead ran Halliburton.

What's your point?

[krkaufman]

15. Another perspective would be....

... think how bad Columbine could have been had assault weapons been legal at the time. How much more firepower could those idiots have brought w/o the AWB in place?

As for the DC snipers, assault weapons weren't their thing. They were all about the long-distance sniping.

[FeebMaster]

22. Yes their AB-10 would have been far more deadly

if it had a barrel shroud and was called a Tec-9.


On edit: Whoops forgot the DC snipers. Yes, their post-ban rifle would have been far more deadly if it had a bayonet lug and flash suppressor.

[Renaissance]

23. The Columbine kids had lots of firepower.

There was no provision in the AWB that prevented them from having more.

And as for the D.C. Snipers...they used a Bushmaster XM-15 rifle, which is a clone of the semi-auto AR-15. It is not a "long-distance sniper rifle" by any stretch of the imagination.

[krkaufman]

33. "no AWB provision prevented them from having more"

> The Columbine kids had lots of firepower. There
> was no provision in the AWB that prevented them
> from having more.

I'm speaking totally without any direct knowledge of how the Columbine boys acquired their weapons, but figure it's safe to say that sans AWB assault weapons would have been much more easily acquired and at a lesser price; therefore, the AWB likely prevented the twits from walking into Columbine with assault weapons and ammunition across the board. I expect they could have replaced those shotguns with auto-assault weapons, making them incrementally more lethal.

Re: DC snipers. I didn't speak to their weaponry; I commented on their approach. It was all about one-at-a-time and get away.

[Renaissance]

37. The AWB prevented the Columbine bayonettings I guess.

There is no provision in the ban that would have made the outcome of that massacre any different. Please feel free to read the law and decide for yourself.

You'll notice that pro-AWB people rarely encourage you to read the law and form your own opinion. There's a reason for that.

[minavasht]

32. True

Think of all the bayonetings that were prevented. I'm not sure how a flash suppressor or collapsible stock increase the killing power of a rifle, but their ban helped too.
The DC snipers were into long distance sniping? Yeah, right. For me 100 yards is a TROWING distance.

[Longhorn]

27. As reported on CBS tonight

the DC snipers used an imported automatic weapon.

Also, police associations support the AWB because even though these weapons account for a small percentage of all guns, they account for 20 PERCENT of cop killings.

The expiring AWB didn't go far enough to be truly effective but it was better than nothing, in my opinion.

[FeebMaster]

31. Hahah are you serious?

"As reported on CBS tonight the DC snipers used an imported automatic weapon."

And here I thought it was a domestic post-ban rifle.


Also, police associations support the AWB because even though these weapons account for a small percentage of all guns, they account for 20 PERCENT of cop killings.

Last time I heard the 20% claim it was some anti-gun group making it. They were counting SKS rifles that weren't part of the AWB and any handgun that could accept a magazine with more than 10 rounds in it. Interestingly enough, lots of cops carry handguns like that.



"The expiring AWB didn't go far enough to be truly effective but it was better than nothing, in my opinion."

In my opinion, it basically was nothing.

[slackmaster]

43. If CBS really said that they are mistaken

The Bushmaster semi-automatic rifle used by the DC serial murderers was made in the USA.

Also, police associations support the AWB because even though these weapons account for a small percentage of all guns, they account for 20 PERCENT of cop killings.

Utter bullshit. I don't suppose you have a cite for this. (If you post some bullshit from the Violence Policy Center I will laugh out loud.)

[Renaissance]

45. Also, the Snipers' weapon was AWB-compliant.

A fact that often gets lost in the mix.

[Gman]

29. Flame bait

by a newbie.

[Renaissance]

39. Meaningless accusation...

...by someone who can't contribute an argument of substance to the discussion.

[UpsideDownFlag]

60. good eye.

i'd say its roughly equivelent to "democrat gun owners show off your collections".

[VOX]

38. Being anti-AWB is, by and large, antithetical to Democratic Party ideals.

Since being against it is the foursquare stance of the NRA and gun lobby (the most powerful lobby in D.C.), who are big right-wing supporters and enablers of the current administration. They are doing everything in their power to elect *.

The NRA has declared today's lapse of the AWB a "great victory," but Howard Dean, a true Democrat **and** a person who has worked with the NRA, sees the folly (and the politics) involved in the lapse:

An Expiration Date on Safety
By Howard Dean
Monday 13 September 2004
<snip>
However, I have never met a hunter who thought owning an assault weapon was necessary to shoot a deer or a bear. I have met a lot of law enforcement officers who think that the federal assault weapons ban saved a lot of their colleagues' lives. I have met parents whose kids were killed by assault weapons years ago and are bracing for more of the same.

The expiration of the assault weapons ban also showed me something that is becoming a frequent occurrence with this administration: politics trumps conviction. The ban expired because Rep. Tom DeLay (D-Tex.) refused to let the ban come to a vote in the House of Representatives. President Bush, knowing the ban has overwhelming political support among American voters, said he would support the extension of the ban when he was a candidate for President in 2000. Like so many of his campaign promises on education, health care, balanced budgets and foreign policy, there was no truth to this promise either.
<snip>

[Renaissance]

44. I thought personal liberty was a "Democratic ideal"

My ownership of a semi-automatic rifle presents a threat to nothing except paper targets and the occasional tin can.

[DBtv]

49. Bullshit, it's very existance is a danger.

You cannot guarantee that it will not fall into the hands of a criminal.

Your cheap thrills do not justify the social danger the existance of assault weapons in your community creates.

[Renaissance]

51. There's no guarantee that your car won't be stolen...

...and used in the commission of a crime, either.

My semi-automatic rifle is a piece of steel and plastic. It is a threat to nobody.

[DBtv]

52. And nuclear bombs are just boxes of chemicals.

It's the airplane bombadiers that are dangerous.

[Renaissance]

53. Yes, my semi-auto rifle can kill millions in a millisecond.

Great analogy.

[DBtv]

54. It is as analogous as your auto reference.

Killer.

[Renaissance]

55. Please clarify.

How does owning a rifle make me a killer?

By the way, you are treading awfully close to a personal attack. Just so you know.

I really want to know what legislation you propose to prevent criminals from stealing your car and using it to commit a crime.

[UpsideDownFlag]

63. hey! i have the right to have whatever gun i want!

you can take my popguns when you pry them out of my cold, dead, hands!

(sarcasm)

[FeebMaster]

64. Most of the people who voted in your poll agree. (nt)

[Mojambo]

46. I really hesitate to even post in this thread

because I don't want to get involved in a whole big discussion on an issue that I really don't have much of an opinion on either way but...

Who is exactly is being hurt by this ban? Gun manufacturers and collectors but who else?

I feel like the issue of whether it works or not (or how well it works) is pretty difficult to ascertain. It'd be pretty tough to find out it was working by losing someone close to you.

So is this thing really causing big problems for most Americans? And if not, why not keep it going until we can come up with a more effective solution.

Unless Congress swings completely to the Democrats I'm sure we won't see a better replacement measure. It seems like bad timing for this thing to go out now.

JMO though, I'm not super knowledgeable on this issue.

[Renaissance]

50. Because "at least it's something" isn't a good enough reason.

The law doesn't accomplish anything. It had no effect on the mechanical operation of any firearm.

I mean this with no sarcasm...this ban was akin to a ban on spoilers, ground effects and big tailpipes as a legislative solution for speeding.

Sure, there's no "need" for those features...but what real purpose does such a ban serve if 400 horsepower engines are still perfectly legal?

[UpsideDownFlag]

65. maybe we should toss them out of helicopters.

[slackmaster]

67. Hyperbole doesn't help JibJab

It just provides ammunition for the other side (meaning the GOP and the Bushistas) to say "Look at all those crazy Democrats on DU!"

They're doing it right now.

[UpsideDownFlag]

68. no, what helps the other side is when people

talk crap about moveon and others, while having nothing to say about their NRA counterparts in the 'gun rights' movement.

[slackmaster]

66. The point is the ban produced ZERO increase in public safety

Nothing. Nada. Goose egg.

Any law that restricts peoples' choices but doesn't give back something at least as valuable in return is fundamentally bad.

Unless Congress swings completely to the Democrats I'm sure we won't see a better replacement measure. It seems like bad timing for this thing to go out now.

A "better" replacement measure that does what exactly? I'd support something that addresses the root causes of violent crime: Poverty, prejudice, lack of good public education, poor health care, drug addiction, dysfunctional families, etc. Banning some types of guns but allowing others to be sold is never going to do that. Banning all guns is utterly out of the question.

Both houses had Democratic majorities when the ban, including its sunset clause, passed in 1994. Without the sunset clause it never would have passed.

The AWB was a noble experiment that failed just like the Prohibition. Fortunately it didn't require a Constitutional amendment to correct the mistake.

[UpsideDownFlag]

59. wow.

let's see how this one goes...i hope no one gets tombstoned, lol.

[Renaissance]

69. Laugh it up.

The only thing worth "laughing out loud" at is how worked up people are about this worthless law...yet they didn't see fit to do anything about it until two days before its scheduled sunset.

[slackmaster]

70. A lot of mistakes led to Columbine

I blame parents who did a lousy job of watching what their sons were doing.

I blame school officials who let chronic bullying go unanswered.

I blame police who knew Klebold and Harris were up to something but didn't take proactive measures to stop them.

I blame every kid who knew Klebold and Harris were up to something but didn't report the problem to authorities.

I blame the two adults who made illegal straw purchases and supplied Klebold and Harris with guns and ammunition.

I blame Klebold and Harris.

[Wickerman]

71. Locking - I am serious about the AWB thread containment

Please, follow isntructions and contain all AWB to the official thread or one of the numerous AWB threads previous of the official