Bil'in protesters say bean bags are army's latest weapon

[Lithos]

Correcting to conform to I/P guidelines for subject header which needs to match article title.

[idontwantaname]

1. bean bags are army's latest weapon?

would i rather have a bean bag or rubber coated steel bullet fired at me?... hmm...

--------------------------------

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/636630.html

Last update - 02:38 21/10/2005
Bil'in protesters say bean bags are army's latest weapon
By David Ratner, Haaretz Correspondent

<snip>

About two months ago a Haaretz investigative report revealed two new
types of ammunition used for the first time at Bil'in: a pepper ball
that splits into several smaller projectiles on contact and causes
burning and dizziness, and blue sponges.

Bil'in protest leader Abdallah Abu Rahma said that after Haysam Hatib
was shot, other demonstrators searching the area found a bullet that
could be fired from a hunting rifle with the word "super sock" on it.
According to the demonstrators, Hatib was hit by a small sack filled with
tiny balls.

<snip>

However, users are warned that the impact of the bean bag can be
fatal if it hits a sensitive area of the body like the head or neck.

Research by the Canadian police in 1999 showed that if a person is
hit by a bean bag fired from under three meters, of the type used in
Bil'in, the blow can cause death.

<snip>

[losdiablosgato]

2. These round have been used by police in the US for more then 10 years

[Behind the Aegis]

4. hmmm...

I guess we will just have to see...is it better to use non-lethal or lethal weapons. Although used in the US for 10 years, the fact that a potentially non-lethal weapon is being used in Israel is a "bad" thing.

[Violet_Crumble]

5. They're lethal...

From the article:

"However, users are warned that the impact of the bean bag can be
fatal if it hits a sensitive area of the body like the head or neck."

A normal bullet is also non-lethal if it doesn't hit a sensitive area of the body or misses altogether. And if the US has been using it for ten years, then it's just as bad as Israel using it...

Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

6. So, Israel should just continue with the bullets...

...save the added expense of the 'bean-bag?' Gotcha.

[Violet_Crumble]

9. No, I didn't say that..

What I said was it was definately not a non-lethal thing. Gotme?


Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

10. But both are non-lethal and lethal...

...so Israel should sacrifice the one that is potentially less lethal for the one that is more "hit or miss?"

[Violet_Crumble]

16. It is NOT non-lethal...

I posted the words from the article that said it wasn't....

Here's what might be a stunning idea. How about embracing the idea of supporting something that's actually non-lethal, rather than something that's 'less-lethal' being good enough?


Violet...

[Behind the Aegis]

17. Hmmm...

How about accepting that sometimes that is not an option!

[Violet_Crumble]

18. Not until it's proven that there is no other option...

Sorry, but I consider human life a bit too important to accept non-lethal measures aren't an option until it's proven without a doubt that's the case...

Violet....

[eyl]

19. next paragraph

"Research by the Canadian police in 1999 showed that if a person is
hit by a bean bag fired from under three meters, of the type used in Bil'in, the blow can cause death."

I'm not aware of any "nonlethal" weapons which won't kill ubder the right circumstances (that includes tear gas*).


*And no, I don't mean by hitting someone in the head with the grenade

[Englander]

7. Yes, it is a 'bad thing'.

The reason it is a 'bad thing', is because these weapons are not
designed for crowd control, they are designed to cause injury, &
to stop a potential assailant, and they should not be used as a
means to control political protesters. They're designed to be used
against armed criminals, not against demonstrators. Are these weapons
used against political protestors in the US? Are they used as a form
of crowd control in the US?

[Behind the Aegis]

8. So...maybe tear gas would be better?

As they are designed to stop a potential assailant, perhaps that is why it was used. :shrug:

[Englander]

12. Yes, it would. Tear gas is designed for crowd control.

Projectiles designed to hurt, fired from a shotgun are not.

--As they are designed to stop a potential assailant, perhaps that is why it was used--

Mislead, much? An assailant, which I clarified as being, 'an armed
criminal'.

[Behind the Aegis]

15. Assailant...

...one who assails....no weapons needed.

[Englander]

3. Appartently, they're 'less-lethal'.

They're bags of plastic pellets, fired from a shotgun, & they're
sold as an alternative to the taser, but if you call them 'beanbags',
they sound cute, & fluffy, don't they? Just make sure that the
Super Sock doesn't hit the 'head, neck, thorax, heart, or spine'.
From the manufacturer's website;

'12ga Super-Sock™ Rounds

Description
Combined Tactical Systems, Inc. is pleased to announce the development of a new revolutionary concept in a 12ga. Bean Bag design.

After extensive testing, the new bag has proven to be the next generation of less-lethal impact munitions.

The patented design incorporates an aerodynamic shape, which retains velocity and energy at longer ranges. This design also enables the bag to be loaded with a slightly lower muzzle velocity, which makes minimum distance deployment safer.

Because of the enhanced flight characteristics, the new bags are much more stable. It does not tumble or spin in flight. The direct result of the improved flight characteristic is greater accuracy.

Accuracy and efficiency of less-lethal munitions is becoming more and more important. Existing Bean Bag rounds are notoriously inconsistent at longer ranges. Our new design significantly increases consistency and therefore accuracy, especially at longer ranges. An extra five or ten yards of usable deployment accuracy can be expected.

Operation
These rounds can be fired from most 12ga smoothbore shotguns such as the Remington 870 and Mossberg 500.

Danger
For use only by qualified personnel trained in the use of these products.

http://www.less-lethal.com/12gasuso.htm

Compatibility Cylinder and Improved Cylinder 12ga.
Shotguns chambered for 2.75” and 3”
cartridges.
- Terminal Velocity 280 fps (average) at 10 yards
- Accuracy 4” or better at 20 yards using a cylinder
bore Remington 870.
- Terminal Effects Super-Sock™ is designed to deliver its
kinetic energy over a relatively large
area and impart a Less-Lethal impact to
the target. It may cause bruises, skin
abrasion and other injuries associated
with blunt trauma.
- Deployment The Super-Sock™ projectile is in its
deployed state immediately upon
exiting the weapon barrel. It does not
require a minimum range to “unfold” or
“stabilize”. Optimal ranges are between
5 and 20 yards. However, it is stressed
that shot placement rather than
deployment range is the critical factor in
determining the extent of injury caused.
Shots to the head, neck, thorax, heart
or spine can result in fatal or serious
injury.

pdf document;

http://www.less-lethal.com/pdf_specs/2581%20Rev%20N%2012ga%20Super-Sock.pdf

[Behind the Aegis]

11. And that is bad?

Or do you prefer to the lethal or potentially non-lethal bullets?

[Englander]

13. Oh, great. Another round of Spot-the-Rhetorical-Question.

What tf are 'potentially non-lethal bullets'?

[Behind the Aegis]

14. I'd hate to do that to you.

I know that is problematic for you. So, you can just ignore it.