Gaza under intense bombardment

[Tom Joad]

Since the start of April, Israeli forces say they have fired more than 2,000 artillery shells into the northern Gaza Strip.

I was in Beit Lahiya a few days ago just after the latest accident.

An artillery round had crashed through the roof of a house.

Israel said Palestinian militants had fired a rocket from the area two hours earlier. Its artillery had struck back.

One boy wept as he told me the rocket had injured members of his extended family.

"About 10 were injured", he said.

Has anyone died, I asked.

"A girl, about eight years old."

The round killed eight-year-old Hadil Ghaben - and injured her brothers and sisters.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4910810.stm
____________________________________________________________________________
"As long as calm does not prevail on the Israeli side, neither will it do so on the Palestinian side. Our operations are going to intensify." Israeli Defence Minister Shaul Mofaz

This quote is nothing less than a threat to increase the terror upon the civilian population of Gaza in an effort to stop the rocket attacks on Israel. In turn, rocket attacks on Israel are an attempt to put pressure on the civilian population of Israel so they may change Israeli govt. policy.

When will this cycle of violence stop?
Why does the US continue to fund this insanity?

Remember Hadil Ghaben, killed by U.S. taxpayer funding. Thank a congressperson.

[marbuc]

1. The cycle of violence will stop

only when Israel is no longer artificially fortified with US support. When they realize they have to get along with others for self preservation, they will stop bullying Palestine right quick. In other words, never.

[DELUSIONAL]

2. The Settlers (illegal land occupiers) could be sending the missiles

because they know that the Israeli army will knee jerk lob heavy bombs in the direction of the Palestinians.

Organized Religion is a horrible invention -- personally I just see death and coming from the religiously insane.

[cali]

4. That's unlikely.

The shells are coming from Gaza. There are no Israels in Gaza. Nevertheless, the Israeli response is not appropriate. It doesn't stop the problem and it kills mainly innocent civilians.

[Tom Joad]

3. Gush Shalom ad in April 14th Haaretz It is a war crime.

The shelling Of a civilian neighborhood
Is a War crime.

The murder of 8-year old Hadil Raban By a tank shell
Is a War crime.

Those responsible Are Defense Minister

Shaul Mofaz And Chief-of-Staff Dan Halutz.

Ad in Haaretz,, April 14, 2006
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en

[Coastie for Truth]

7. Quick - Hire Tom Clark's son, Ramsey Clark

[Scurrilous]

5. Petition: Gaza shelling illegal

Six Israeli, Palestinian human rights groups petition High Court of Justice after army permits troops to fire at sites closer to Gaza residential homes; IDF playing Russian roulette with Palestinian lives, attorney

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3240382,00.html

<snip>

"A recent order given to IDF forces to fire shells closer to the homes of Gaza residents is illegal and should be rescinded, according to a High Court of Justice petition filed by six human rights groups Sunday.

"The order given to IDF forces to aim shells to a distances of only 100 meters (roughly 300 feet) from residents' homes harms the lives of civilians and places officers and soldiers at risk of committing war crimes," the petition charges."

<snip>

"According to the six Israeli and Palestinian petitioners, the new order in fact constitutes the annulment of the protection given to residents in the face of IDF shelling.

"This is a decision that has a black flag hanging over it," the petitioners wrote, and noted that a Palestinian girl died and several family members were hurt in an IDF shelling last week made possible because of the new order.

"This constitutes genuine danger to the lives of residents in the Strip, but beyond that, it is also an order that could lead to many problems for soldiers who follow it," the petitioners warn. "This is an opening for accusations regarding war crimes."

[pelsar]

6. the way to stop it....war crimes

the israelis like to travel.....hit them where it hurts...get the names of the soldiers shooting, guarding, their commanders...and have the Brits or the Hague charge them with war crimes....that should do it.

its simply criminal to shell within 100 meters of peoples homes...some of those shells will hit the homes not to mention the shrapnel....and kill more civilians

[Burning Water]

8. Israel has

the right to defend itself. Israel has the right to exist.

The sooner the Palestinians recognize and acknowledge these facts, the sooner peace can break out all over.

[Tom Joad]

9. When will Israel recognize Palestinians right to exist?

For their children to live? the right of their homes to stand? Since 1948 until this day, Israel has not recognized such a right. Always more terror, ethnic cleansing. From Deir Yassin in 1948, that was commemorated this week, until now... always the same thing.

[Burning Water]

11. Oh, that's total nonsense.

you know it, too.

The Palestinians could have had a state any time they wanted one. Just not one that encompassed all the territory that they wanted. Learn the facts.

[Tom Joad]

16. Anytime they wanted to???

It was not until the 90's that there was any serious discussion in Israel regarding the possibility of any Palestinian state. That is because Israel created the necessary "facts on the ground", namely settlements & such that break up the West Bank into pieces (Let no one say Israel does not want real "piece").

What is being offered now, on a take it or leave it basis (no talks have taken place for several years) is the creation of several bantustans, that will leave Palestinians with a few population centers ... without the best farmland or water (taken by Israel), without access to Gaza (taken by Israel) without most of Jerusalem the center of Palestine economic life, as well as very important culturally and religiously.

[Coastie for Truth]

15. When will the Palestinians recognize the right of the Jews to a Homeland

For their children to live? the right of their homes to stand? Since Hebron in 1928 (see, www.jimena.org) until this day, the Arab states have not recognized such a right. Always more terror, ethnic cleansing. From Hebron in 1928, ... always the same thing.

[pelsar]

10. to defend yes...

but not at the cost of innocent lives..havent the palestenains suffered enough...now the israelis have not only closed off gaza but are shelling them......

[Burning Water]

12. Obviously,

the Palestinians haven't suffered enough to cause them to change their behavior. Their suffering is their own fault.

As for the "innocent lives", naturally all decent people agonize over them. However, the responsibility of the Israeli government is only for the protection of the innocent lives of its own citizens. The PA has the responsibility for preserving the innocent lives of its citizens. A responsibility which they constantly seem to shirk.

[cali]

13. What a thoroughly

callous statement. Why not turn it around to read: Obviously the Israelis haven't suffered enough to change their behavior and dismantle the Occupation? and the Israelis damn well do have a responsibility for innocent Palestinian lives. Would you claim that the US has no responsibility for innocent Iraqis? As for claiming that all decent people agonize over innocent life, that appears to place you out of such a designation.

[Burning Water]

14. Why not read it

like what you actually mean: Obviously the Israelis haven't suffered enough to commit national suicide and extinguish their nation.

The Israelis and Palestinians are at war, whether they acknowledge this publicly, or not. I expect them both to act as if they were at war, which means people are going to get killed. The killing will stop when the war does.

As for your last despicable comment, do you routinely dehumanize people that disagree with you? Or do you reserve this for the I/P forum only?

[Tom Joad]

17. A transparent call of support for state terrorism, Burning.

Very similar to the one put out by Israeli War Minister Shaul Mofaz.

Punishing civilians in this way, as a means of making a change in policy, is nothing less than terror.

The same can be said for blowing up cafes or buses as can be about shelling villages in Gaza. It is all very similar, and must end.

[Burning Water]

18. A call for terrorism?

I don't think so.

I have not expressed approval, only mentioned that in a war, one side has as much right to defend itself as does the other. And that the aggressors here are the Palestinians.

I think we can agree that the killing must end. Our disagreement is on how best to do this. If the Palestinians stopped their terror activities, the Israelis would not attack them. The same cannot be said in the reverse situation, where the Israelis ceased their military activities. Or would you care to point out where I am wrong on this point? I didn't think so.

[Tom Joad]

19. See Levy's article and the thread here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x122492

[bemildred]

20. Aiming artillery at cities is not "defending yourself".

And it is fatuous to call the Palestinians, whatever their failings, the aggressors here.
One has not even the fig leaf of "we don't intentionally aim at civilians" in this.

If it is bad for the Gaza nuts to shoot their stupid rockets without knowing what they will hit, it is bad to shoot artillery back without knowing what it will hit.

Morality, if it means anything, requires you to decide what YOU won't do.

[Tom Joad]

21. What is the difference in aiming artillary at cities and aiming planes

at office buildings? Yeah, obviously there is much higher death toll very quickly when you completely destroy a office building... but in both cases, it is deliberately targeting civilians to "teach them a lesson"

It is also no different than destroying Fallujah to "teach them a thing or two" about resisting a foreign army. There the death toll was probably in the thousands.

Osama Olmert Bush bin Laden. They have so much in common.

[pelsar]

25. morality is not flexible...

if the IDF shoots artillary knowing full well that civilians may be killed, then there is no difference between the IDF and the jihads....both intend to kill people.

how can the palestenains be the aggressors? it is they that are in a prison camp, virtually surrounded by israel, with no viable economy, no exports, while israel controls their imports, watched day and night by towers, by passing jets, they live like ants in an ant farm' totally exposed to to israel.....

they can hardly be the aggressors, those few and insiginficant groups firing rockets that rarely hit anything can hardly threaten such a regional power such as israel...its impossible.....

[pelsar]

24. killing civilians is killing civilians...

its doesnt matter "the intention"......a shell landing in a house is no better than a bus being blown up...both kill equally

[Burning Water]

26. That is totally

erroneous.

Intention is everthing.

[Violet_Crumble]

22. They can stop their own suffering...

Let the terrorists firing the rockets know that enough is enough. But they don't do that. And unlike the terrorists Israel isn't intentionally aiming at innocents. They sometimes make mistakes but that's understandable seeing as how they fire the rockets from residential areas. When that 7 year old girl was tragically killed by mistake, the IDF apologised to the parents and offered them Israeli citizenship...

Violet...

[pelsar]

23. the palestenains dont have the control the way the IDF does....

its obvious that amongst the various palestenain resistant groups non has any real control..hence its not realistic to "ask them to stop". In fact any attempt to stop them will probaby cause a mini civil war.

Israel, one way or another is the cause for the chaos, be it meddling in the palestenains affairs, arresting certain members, killing others...its up to israel to find a way...a non violent method

[Burning Water]

27. If the Palestinians

are the ones doing the suffering, their interest in stopping it is greater than anyone else's.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. Hamas must have control...

They managed to kick the butt of a joint Israeli/PA offensive against them back before Hamas won the election. Therefore they must wield the power needed to make the groups that are firing the missiles to stop, but they don't want to make them stop....

Violet...