Israeli jets clash with German ship near Lebanon

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"Two Israeli warplanes and a German navy vessel have clashed off the Lebanese coast, the Defense Ministry in Berlin said on Wednesday without giving further details.

Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

The jets also released infra-red countermeasures to ward off any rocket attack, the paper quoted him as saying.

The minister did not say when the incident happened or what had caused it, the paper said.

"I can confirm that there was an incident," a ministry spokesman told Reuters on Wednesday. An investigation was underway and he therefore was unable to provide further information, he added."

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-10-25T162410Z_01_L25388477_RTRUKOC_0_US-GERMANY-ISRAEL-INCIDENT.xml&WTmodLoc=IntNewsHome_C2_worldNews-4

[Name removed]

1. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[acmavm]

2. And Israel's justification? (This will be a good one.)

[Tesha]

6. It was a clear case of "SMD": Sausages of Mass Destruction. (NT)

[KittyWampus]

3. WTF?

Off the coast of Lebanon.

So I suppose this was Israel's way of marking their 'territory'?

What is Israel hiding?

What don't they want Germany to see?

[Amonester]

4. Oh, sweet. So who is it that really want to start WW3 now?

Rapture Ready?

or

Nu-kul-air Winter Snow-flakes?

Pick-a-BOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :scared:

[Kagemusha]

5. Uh Germany doesn't have nukes, does it?

So I don't know what you're talking about.

[Tempest]

9. Israel does

Do you think maybe that's what he was talking about?

[Kagemusha]

29. No.

Because if I have a nuke and I send a conventional 500lb bomb after one of your ships, and you don't have nukes, how can I be starting WW3? So no.

OTOH, it's like, not very important.

[Solo_in_MD]

7. This could be interesting...

Lack of detail is par for the course. Couple of quick thoughts

- Ships don't shoot rockets at airplanes
- Flares are not normally launched unless there is a threat

What is left unsaid is the mode of the ship's radar, which is important (acq vs track) and what was launched by the Israeli's other than the flares. Have to assume if it was ordinance something more would have been said.

Going to be interesting to see what really happened, hopefully the details will be forthcoming soon. Would not be surprised to see if the recent French sabre rattling over IAF recon flights contributed to this.

As for the Liberty, there is little doubt it was a deliberate attack...

[John Gauger]

54. Forgive me, but I don't recall the Liberty.

When did that happen and what did it entail?

[Poll_Blind]

8. "Clash" involves two sides fighting. From this article, it's all Israel.

The F-16's fired "two shots" and then defensive flares. The Germans don't appear to have fired back or attempted to harm the Israeli jets in any way.

  Also, shouldn't "two shots" be "two bursts"? F-16's have 20mm autocannons not revolvers on them.

  What caused this Israeli pilot or pilots to open fire on a friendly ship?

PB

[Solo_in_MD]

18. It will be interesting to see what actually happened

The two shots comment is ambiguous, and a key item will be the state of the ship's radar.

[gordianot]

10. Germany is there on official buisness.

see link: http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-10-25T162422Z_01_L25380969_RTRUKOC_0_UK-GERMANY-ISRAEL-INCIDENT.xml&WTmodLoc=World-C1-Headline-9

"Germany assumed command of a United Nations naval force off the coast of Lebanon 10 days ago and has sent a force of eight ships and 1,000 service personnel to join the international peace operation in the region."

So they (Israel) do not want the U.N. in the region?

[phrenzy]

11. A 65 Years Belated Retaliatory Strike Against Germany (n/t)

[Amonester]

12. Seems like. At first "sight" (maybe). But for what??

A (sick) "desire" to... "get even"??

If so, how much "even" would be "even" enough?

65 years after means 95+ percent of criminals are dead now, so what would murdering their kids and their grandchildren (who never did anything wrong) even accomplish?

For What??

:scared:

[Poll_Blind]

13. Just a note on Israeli culture which might be relevant to this incident.

  Israeli culture is extremely independent and Israelis, even members of the military, pride themselves on their independent decision-making ability. In the American military, for instance, soldiers follow a very strict subordinal relationship with their superiors. In Israeli culture, however, there is much wider latitude given to dissenting opinion. It is not unusual to see soldiers appearing to "argue" with their commanding officer if they have questions or disagreements. The same is true in business situations, by the way. Most of the time these disagreements (albeit impassioned) still exist within the framework of hierarchy. However, members of the Israeli armed forces are not taught to follow orders blindly but to continually appraise the situation and "tweak" as necessary.

  What might this imply about the incident? To me, it's much more likely that incidents like these reflect individual choices by the pilots as opposed to a grander, possibly spookier, "signal-sending" exercise.

  These psychological and decision-making differences are very well described in the book Border Crossings: American Interactions With Israelis.

FWIW,

PB

[Amonester]

16. So, any "suddenly gone insane for who knows what" pilot could...

"decide" to murder any number of innocents, and nobody could "prevent" such stupidly criminal act to happen??

Who would be "brought" to justice afterwards, then?

:scared:

[Solon]

19. That's the most insane thing I ever heard...

Granted, its not outside the realm of possibility that these two pilots just decided to take potshots at an ally's ship for the hell of it, but, even if they did, shouldn't they get punished for it?

I mean, a fuckup is still a fuckup, culture or no, any "independent" action by ANY military personnel can lead to disaster, even war, if not held in check, that IS the primary reason why soldiers cannot act, usually, without a chain of command.

[Poll_Blind]

24. Of course they should be punished for it. You're absolutely right...

..."a fuckup is still a fuckup". The point was not that somehow this absolves the pilot or pilots but that Israeli military are more likely to "make their own moves", even at the level of fighter jet pilot which is pretty much the pinnacle of air-force service.

  Many were reading grander actions into this and I think it's important to recognize that Israelis have a different mindset than, say, Americans would.

  That's all.

PB

[Solon]

31. And every other organized military around the world, apparently...

This is what I'm trying to understand, because, basically, even fighter pilots are ONLY drones when they are still linked to the chain of command. Any military that ENCOURAGES insubordination is asking for the dissolution of any form of military disipline, or even cohesion, a disaster for any type of national security.

[Poll_Blind]

38. The somewhat pugilistic relationship between commanders and...

...underlings is not what it may seem.

Americans perceive the behavior as insubordination. But it's a difference in cultures. Israeli culture is not American culture, no matter how much Israelis happen to look or dress like Americans. When they behave differently we overlay our cultural template onto them and are puzzled by their apparent differences and maybe even wonder how they can operate successfully as a culture. But it's an unfair comparison: Israelis (it's more apparent in Sabras, native-born Israelis) think differently than Americans. I can't condense a book or books on the cultural differences between America and Israeli cultures into a few paragraphs.

The point is, America is a very structured society. If an average American were in a business meeting with his boss and a client and his boss commits to more work than the worker's team is able to do, it's likely that the worker would remain quiet during the meeting until they could talk to their boss afterward.

In a similar meeting and situation between Israelis, it would not be surprising for the worker to speak up at that moment, even though it's "in front of the customer" and hash things out right there.

None of these things are meant to imply, in any way, that we should accept the behavior of military pilot or pilots. My point is that there in situations like this, one has to figure in the fact that the pilot or pilots are approaching whatever situation differently than American pilots would. This in no way absolves them from their actions. But it goes a bit farther to explain why they might have been more likely to engage in actions like this.

Let's say the German ship locked onto the Israeli planes with some sort of defense system (but of course, did not fire) and this became known to the F-16's. American pilots might radio the German ship to clarify their intentions or radio their commanders for a request on how to respond. In a similar situation, an Israeli pilot may choose to make a decision then and there to attack under the impression that the lock-on from the German ship was a purposeful indication that they were going to be fired on. And his wingman would likely follow suit to support the first pilot. This example is just that, purely an example, and no reflection on the facts of this story.

PB

[gordianot]

20. Fascinating. Is it related to their terrorist beginnings?

The German Prussian model in the U.S. military can be traced to the Revolutionary War. If they live long enough in the Middle East maybe someday Israel will have something in common with the PLO, and Hamas. Everyone seems to be on a short fuse.

I wonder what kind of precautions Israel takes with their (nonexistent) Nuclear weapons in this culture? The United States and Soviet Union were obviously very very careful (we are still here), both had an authoritarian military to the point of paranoia when it came to such weapons. Individualism, personal agendas would not seem to mix well with Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[Poll_Blind]

27. I assume that any military with nuclear weapons usually does...

...screening of candidates who may be required to launch those weapons to test for "level-headedness" and ability to obey orders. From things that I've read it appears promotion of this mindset in culture comes from Israel's early beginnings where an individual's resourcefulness and quick thinking was sometimes required for survival. By the way, the "frank speaking" (which is sometimes interpreted by foreigners as pushiness or worse) is called "dugri" (as in "speaking dugri") and it is the verbal manifestation of this individual, pragmatic, mindset.

PB

[breakaleg]

44. Even if that were the case, and these pilots or any soldier acted

on their own, someone has to be resposible for their actions as they are wearing an Israeli uniform and are representatives of Israel.

And on another level, it's pretty convenient if Israel claims they acted alone, and if they don't face severe consequences, then it just reinforces the message that it's ok to do such things. Kind of like saying we are behind you, but we can't say so publicly. I wonder what kind of effect it has on soldiers at the border crossings.

[razors edge]

14. certainly all permanent members of the security council

will condemn this action if the ship posed no threat, right?

:sarcasm:

[gordianot]

22. Germany is there on U.N. business.

Similar to shelling U.N. observer posts.

[mom cat]

36. All but one!

:sarcasm: duly noted and dittoed!

[goforit]

15. Omert? Need more testosterone?

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

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[Demeter]

21. Are The Israelis CRAZY???

I can't believe anyone with half a brain would do such an irresponsible, dangerous thing.

[Solo_in_MD]

25. Take a deep breath

There is so little facts out from anyone, that its immpossible to come to any conclusion.

- What mode were the ships radars in?
- Flares are defensive and only used when being targeted
- What was "dropped"
- Ships don't use rockets against airplanes

More questions that data, and what data is out there can not be correct. Lets see what comes of this.

[muriel_volestrangler]

63. Ships do use rockets against airplanes

For instance, the Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, mentioned in reports of the incident:

# 1 Mk 41 Mod 3 vertical launch system, 16 cells Seasparrow surface-to-air missiles
# 2 Mk 49 launcher with 21 RAM surface-to-air/CIWS-missiles each

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_class_frigate

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a warship without surface-to-air missiles.

[Poll_Blind]

23. Berlin: IAF jets fire shots over German ship off coast of Lebanon

From Ha'Aretz(emphasis mine):

Defense Minister Amir Peretz on Wednesday denied reports that two Israel Air Force warplanes clashed with a German navy vessel off the Lebanese coast.

The Germany daily Der Tagesspiegel earlier on Wednesday quoted a junior German defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee that two Israeli F-16 fighters flew low over the German ship and fired two shots.

--snip--

PB

[Grebrook]

26. Nothing happened and we all know it. These stories always fall flat

[Kagemusha]

30. With all due respect, we don't know squat.

I don't feel you deserve any more reply than that here.

[Solo_in_MD]

34. That is the real problem, not nearly enough data to know what happened.

[John Gauger]

55. What do you mean, always fall flat?

Usually nothing happens from these incidents, but not because nothing happened. Any other nation would face consequences for such actions, but since Israel is our client, they are safe from all reproach except ours. In my experience these incidents are very real. I would guess that this story has progressed much further than we have been told, if the German military is telling us about it. They usually avoid comment for as long as possible, but when they can no longer entirely hide it, they release a sparse statement like this.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stu DeBeouf]

32. The German skipper should be sacked....

Those two planes should be sitting at the bottom of the Med. If he can't defend his ship, he should sail it back to port and resign.

[Solo_in_MD]

33. If the F-16 wanted a fight...

The ship would be at the bottom of the Med. It was only a frigate.

Seriously, there is not nearly enough detail here. This started as a third hand report. There is much that is not know, and what is out there makes no sense. Key data like the modes of the ship radars are not known. Any number of scenarios are can be made from what is there. Lets take a deep breath and wait until the facts come out. Per the JPost, Germany and Israel are already talking about it.

With the memory of the Liberty and such, this will be quite interesting to watch. For now, no one was hurt and nothing damaged, a good start

[mare]

42. That's a great idea!

I mean, a GERMAN ship shooting down two ISRAELI planes. Because who cares about history and de-escalation as long as the skipper doesn't look like a wuss.

[John Gauger]

56. His ship was fired upon.

It is his duty to defend the ship with which he has been entrusted. Returning fire would have been a legitimate response to attack. It's quite simple really. He's under attack, he shoots back. It's simple self-defense. If he didn't return fire, then the shots must not have been a threat.

What's more, you can't just haul the Holocaust out to defend every action the state of Israel ever commits. The Holocaust does not make Israeli aggression legitimate. You can't just say they can shoot at German ships because of the Holocaust.

[Solo_in_MD]

61. Still no inidcation it was fired upon

or any data as to what mode its radars were operating in, a key data point.

Another point is that if the IAF was attacking there would have been bloodshed and or damage (ship and or airplanes), neither occurred. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/779428.html has an update, and Germany and Israel are talking directly.

This may indeed be a non-event.

[Phx_Dem]

35. The IDF is disputing this incident--did not happen

JERUSALEM (Reuters) -
Israel denied a German newspaper report on Wednesday that two of its air force planes had fired twice as they flew over a German navy vessel patrolling the Lebanon coast.

However, Germany's Defense Ministry said an incident had occurred, without giving details.

The German daily Der Tagesspiegel quoted a German junior defense minister as telling a parliamentary committee two Israeli F-16 fighters had flown low over the ship, firing twice.

The jets also activated infra-red countermeasures to ward off any rocket attack, the paper quoted him as saying, in an advance release from Thursday's edition.

"There was no such incident," an Israeli military spokeswoman said.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061025/ts_nm/germany_israel_incident_dc_3

[Solo_in_MD]

37. JPost indicates that the are discussions going on at the minsterial level

which is a good thing. Not nearly enough data out there to acertain what really happened.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

49. Israel denied it?

case closed then, right?

;)

[John Gauger]

57. What makes the IDF more credible than the German military?

One of them could be lying. Germany could be lying. But so could Israel.

[Phx_Dem]

60. I did not say they were more or less credible

just that the GOI was disputing the claim.

[Scurrilous]

39. Israel and Germany at odds over air incident

<snip>

"Israel denied a German newspaper report on Wednesday that two of its air force planes had fired twice as they flew over a German navy vessel patrolling the Lebanon coast.

However, Germany's Defence Ministry said an incident had occurred, without giving details."

<snip>

""I can confirm that there was an incident," a German defence ministry spokesman said on Wednesday. He declined to give further details because an investigation was underway.

Israel's Channel Two television, quoting military sources, described one undated incident where jets had been scrambled when a helicopter took off from a German aircraft carrier close to Israeli waters without identifying itself.

The planes realised the mistake, did not engage the helicopter and returned home, Channel Two said.

In another incident described by the television station, jets deployed anti-missile chaff off the Lebanese coast. This may have been detected by the German navy, Channel Two said."


http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=UKNews1&storyID=2006-10-25T185110Z_01_L25380969_RTRUKOC_0_UK-GERMANY-ISRAEL-INCIDENT.xml&WTmodLoc=HP-C1-TopStories-6

[arikara]

40. Why does LBN like this get shoved into the basement?

n/t

[Kagemusha]

41. Because it involves Israel and it is not WWIII.

nt

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KansDem]

45. The USS Liberty incident was "a mistake"

Israeli forces swiftly attacked the Liberty with both jet fighters. The Liberty responded by turning its only weapons, the four. 50 caliber machine guns, on the assaulting forces. The Israelis responded by launching napalm canisters and torpedoes from warships. The Liberty broke radio silence and tried to contact Israeli forces to identify the vessel as an American intelligence ship. However, Israeli forces had jammed the ship's communications systems with extensive static. Finding an open channel, Liberty communications officers radioed U.S. air forces in Crete for assistance. Receiving the distress call, jet fighters were deployed to aid the besieged Liberty. However, U.S. military officials recalled the planes after discovering that the jet fighters were not equipped to repel the attack. Without defensive weapons or fighting assistance, the Liberty was quickly crippled. Crewmembers later reported that Israeli forces opened machine gun fire on men trying to escape the flaming wreckage. Radio operators onboard the American ship finally sent a successful communication to Israeli forces, identifying the Liberty.

The barrage ceased, and Israeli forces notified government and intelligence officials, that they had mistakenly fired upon an American vessel. The Israeli government reported the incident immediately to the United States embassy in Tel Aviv, and notified U.S. officials in Washington, D.C. United States Naval Command deployed nearby ships in a belated rescue effort. Before U.S. aid vessels arrived, Israeli and Soviet vessels in the area both offered assistance to the crew of the Liberty. McGonagle and his crew refused their aid.

Though the incident was shrouded in secrecy for numerous years, the U.S. government declassified most of the documents surrounding the Israeli attack on the Liberty in the mid 1990s. Though some people, including various crewmembers, remain skeptical about the motive and nature of Israeli military actions against the ship, the Liberty Incident was officially ruled a "friendly fire" accident. Volumes of documents and diplomatic evidence materials support this conclusion.


Israeli planes and one or more torpedo boats mistakenly attacked this U.S. Navy research ship, the USS Liberty, in the Mediterranean Sea near the Sinai Peninsula in 1967. ©BETTMANN/CORBIS.

http://www.espionageinfo.com/Ul-Vo/USS-Liberty.html

[gordianot]

46. The American flag which was flying is very hard to recognize.

Also the American commander refused all help offered by the Israeli's. So I guess we made the mistake. :sarcasm:

[KansDem]

48. Maybe we need to get those really, REALLY big flags...

...that you see fly at some used-car dealerships and chain restaurants. THEN these "mistakes" won't happen!

[IndianaGreen]

51. The Israeli torpedo boats that strafed the Liberty's lifeboats

(and also saw the American flag) had no intention of leaving a single American crewman alive.

Israel's apologists hurt Israel's already tattered reputation when they defend the indefensible. The 2-hour long attack on the USS Liberty was premeditated and indefensible. The US should have sunk the torpedo boats, bombed the bases from which they came, and shot down the Israeli jets that attacked the USS Liberty.

That's the response America would have expected from their government when our ships come under attack. That's what America would have done had the attackers been anything but Israeli Jews. Had the attackers been Israeli Arabs, we would have retaliated, I am certain.

The fact that USS Liberty had Jews among its crew did not protect her, nor it prevented the subsequent smearing of the crew by the Israel Lobby!

Unfortunately for America, there are two political lobbies that hold us hostage. One is the Cuban-American lobby, which wags the dog when it comes to our relations with Cuba, the other is the Israel lobby which does the same with American-Israel relations.

We are long overdue for a change!

[Poll_Blind]

52. IG, if the U.S. had sunk the boats, bombed the bases from...

...which the planes came and shot down the planes we would have had retaliation from them right in our own back yard.

  They still lovingly commemorate the King David Hotel bombing. If something like that happened today and the U.S. responded that way, there would be Neo-Irgun getting all into our shit over here. Some of the worst acts of violence perpetrated against Arabs were done by newly-immigrated zealots home-grown right here in the U.S.

  I'm not saying we should give a pass to violent acts like that but we've got a leg in the noose to Israel just like Israel's got a leg in the noose to the settlers.

  Something like that goes down and the new Irv Rubins are going to start yanking.

PB

[John Gauger]

59. Our government's decisions

regarding Israel and Cuba are based on the "interests" of this country and this country alone. We support the Cuba lobby because we hate Cuba; we don't hate Cuba because of the Cuba lobby. They are our enemy because they have challenged our hegemony. The Cuba lobby appears to have power because our government happens to support their policies. They have no sway on policy decisions. The only time our leaders cater to their wishes is during election season. The same is true of the Israe lobby. They appear to have power because our government happens to support their positions. If Israel gets in our way, as occasionally happens, we do not hesitate to fuck them over with the same predujice that we wield against official enemies. There are several examples throughout history for those who care to look. Israel deplores our arming of Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan, but we do it without their lofty approval. And our government has no love of Jews. They were afforded special treatment because of the flag they flew. The considerations were political, not ethnic. While I do feel that our government values Arab lives less than, say, Jewish lives, and is more wont to bomb them, it seems more logical to me that their considerations would be for other reasons. We spent an awful lot of money paying for those Israeli planes, bombs, and bases. Why should we go and blow them up?

[pelsar]

62. to believe it was preplanned.....one has to ignore basic facts.....

The first thing one learns as a combat soldier, before going out on a mission, one takes the proper weapons:


if your going to sink a ship, taking napalm and 20mm doesnt do the trick. Taking 500lb bombs from two flights (4 planes) would sink the ship in mere minutes.

and further more....a flag flying hardly means it will be seen:....there are quite a few examples during WWII where american pilots flying slower planes killed their own even while the US flag was visible.

for combat pilots and soldiers it was obviously a "target of oppertunity"....which in turn was a mistake. A common enough occurrence in wartime...and for those who would rather not know......well for them it was an attempt to kill american soldiers for whatever strange reason one prefers to believe , and an incompetent attempt at that.

[John Gauger]

58. Whom did they think they were firing upon?

What country did they mistake our ship as belonging to?

[rman]

67. changing story;

first Russians, then Egyptian transport ship...

BBC docu:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6595846710992512471

USS Liberty Memorial
http://www.ussliberty.org/

[rman]

68. And by whom did USS Liberty sailors think they were fired upon?

Unmarked planes of Russian design...

Imagine the possibilities if the Liberty would actually have been sunk...

[rman]

66. Israeli military knew exactly which radio frequencies to jam

And it's not like all ships use the same radio frequencies for communication.

Radio frequencies used by US military ships are specific to the US navy.

[Phx_Dem]

47. If you really believe that

then take your concerns up with the mods.

[rman]

65. Same reason why LBN about Hillary Clinton is moved in the Hillary Clinton support group

support group...

[IndianaGreen]

50. Gee, I didn't know that Germany was now part of I/P conflict

Considering Israel's track record of strafing ships on the high seas, as they did the USS Liberty, and its recent admission that it used outlawed weapons in Lebanon, we shouldn't be surprised about anything that comes out of the increasingly psychotic Olmert government.

[Poll_Blind]

53. Crimethink! Europa everwar Zion. n/t

PB

[rman]

64. Shades of the USS Liberty?

USS Liberty: Dead in the Water (BBC, 2002)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6595846710992512471
http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/dead_in_the_water.shtml

During the Six-Day War, Israel attacked and nearly sank the USS Liberty belonging to its closest ally, the USA. Thirty-four American servicemen were killed in the two-hour assault by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats. Israel claimed that the whole affair had been a tragic accident based on mistaken identification of the ship. The American government accepted the explanation.

For more than 30 years many people have disbelieved the official explanation but have been unable to rebut it convincingly. Now, Dead in the Water uses startling new evidence to reveal the truth behind the seemingly inexplicable attack. The film combines dramatic reconstruction of the events, with new access to former officers in the US and Israeli armed forces and intelligence services who have decided to give their own version of events.

Interviews include President Lyndon Johnson's Secretary of Defence Robert McNamara, former head of the Israeli navy Admiral Shlomo Errell and members of the USS Liberty crew.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

70. USS Liberty was a premeditated attack

Israel is prone to lie as much as the Bush regime is. We have seen enough lies from Israel to realize by now that the IDF is not the much ballyhooed "most moral army in the world" and that Israel has learned the wrong lessons from the Holocaust. "Never again" does not mean we won't allow genocide to take place again, instead it means that we won't let it happen to us, but it's okay if we do it to someone else.

[pelsar]

71. premeditated?.....pretty incompetent israeli air force then

The first thing one learns as a combat soldier, before going out on a mission, one takes the proper weapons: The IAF proved they understand this a few days earlier when they wiped out the various arab air forces....


if one is going to sink a ship, taking napalm and 20mm doesnt do the trick. Taking 500lb bombs from two flights (4 planes) would sink the ship in mere minutes....this was proven clearly in WWII

and further more....a flag flying hardly means it will be seen:....there are quite a few examples during WWII where american pilots flying slower planes killed their own even while the US flag was visible. (WWII PT boats 347 and PT 346 for one example)

for combat pilots it was obviously a "target of opportunity"....which in turn was a mistake. A common enough occurrence in wartime...and for those who would rather not know......well for them it was an attempt to kill american soldiers for whatever strange reason one prefers to believe , and an incompetent attempt at that.