Free Barghouti

[Violet_Crumble]

Before his trip to the United States and during the visit, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert announced that he was bringing with him a large number of surprises if only Mahmoud Abbas (Abu Mazen) would agree to meet with him finally. The chairman of the Palestinian Authority cannot even imagine what would await him during such a meeting, which has been delayed for months and years: One meeting on the bush is better than two to three fulfilled promises in the hand. That's how it always is when one travels to the Oval Room: mountains and hills on the way there, plains and valleys on the way back. The road to Ramallah passes through Washington, and it is about 10,000 kilometers long.

Marwan Barghouti is not going anywhere. He is sitting in Hadarim Prison and serving five life sentences, to which he was sentenced by a civil court. "Informed sources" made sure to publicize the fact that there is no chance of releasing him in the context of the deal for exchanging prisoners and kidnapped soldiers - the deal that will free Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. The Israeli government does not agree to release Barghouti, and that's final. And that is another of its mistakes.

Not that Barghouti is a righteous man in a place where there are no righteous men, but he does not have "blood on his hands." At worst, his blood rose to his head in the wake of the targeted and unfortunate assassination of his friend Raed Karmi. It is possible that Barghouti bears responsibility for terror attacks, but this is the "responsibility of the dispatcher" (which in itself is serious and grounds for conviction). The problem is that there is no person on the other side who is entirely free of such responsibility - and who is free of it on our side? Everyone here has already immersed himself once in the river of blood, and it is in fact possible to immerse twice in this river, in the same blood of the innocent. Everyone with whom we have sat at the negotiating table (and will sit with in future) is unfortunately stigmatized as a dispatcher of terrorists, and Barghouti is no better and no worse.

Chaotic Palestinian politics is also divided into two main camps, and all the rest are splinter groups and splinters of splinters: The moderate camp recognizes Israel and is willing to accepts its existence, and the radical-extremist camp, which is adhering to its refusal, is unwilling to compromise and considers Israel a foreign element that must be uprooted. Although Israel is making every effort to blur the boundaries between the two camps and to turn them into one, Barghouti still belongs to the camp of the reconciled, and there is no authorized body in Israel that would deny this assessment. From prison he supported the election of Abu Mazen as PA chair, although he had the power to interfere with this choice.

Inside prison he formulated the "prisoners' document" drawn up by Fatah and Hamas members, which calls for the establishment of two states based on the 1967 borders, adopts previous agreements between the sides and abandons the armed struggle in the unoccupied territories. This is not a perfect document that Israelis are invited to sign, but it is unquestionably a reasonable basis for discussion.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/789917.html

[Tom Joad]

1. It would take a "De Klerk moment" to free Barghouti. I tell you, Olmert is

no De Klerk.

[eyl]

2. and Barghouti

is no Mandela

[Violet_Crumble]

3. Mandela was considered a bit of a terrorist type, wasn't he? n/t

[Behind the Aegis]

4. Mandela oversaw groups that committed attacks on civilians? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

5. That's coz I didn't say that

I'll repeat it for the hard of reading: Mandela was considered a bit of a terrorist type, wasn't he?

As the question was intended for eyl, who is in the habit of indulging in constructive and civil discussion, I won't be responding to any more of yr posts in this thread, bta...

[Behind the Aegis]

6. Didn't say you said that, did I?

Nope, you said Mandela was considered a terrorist type. While true, there is a difference in being called one and heading a terrorist organization.

[eyl]

8. As BTA pointed out

Mandela, AFAIK, didn't make a habit of being involved in attacks against civilians. Whether or not the SA regime considered him a terrorist or not is beside the point.

[Englander]

12. The ANC was involved in 'armed resistance'.

They were determined to overthrow the brutal apartheid regime, as they saw it, & any such attempts
wouldn't be successful by just asking the SA govt nicely if they would dismantle the apartheid
system.
Some of that 'resistance' involved sabotage against military, civilian, & economic targets, & plans
were made to fight a guerilla war if the sabotage failed.

Umkhonto we Sizwe = not hippies.

[eyl]

13. Was Mandela involved in those activities

either directly or in command?

Also,what does "sabotage" mean, in this context?

[Englander]

14. He was the commander-in-chief of MK.

(Umkhonto we Sizwe). It would mean blowing up components of the SA infrastructure, which was how MK
announced their formation.

History of Umkhonto we Sizwe
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mk/mk-history.html

On edit.

More details;

A brief historical overview of Umkhonto We Sizwe (MK), 1961-1994
http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol115rw.html

[eyl]

16. Not what I asked

Was he involved in those attacks beyond being the organizations titular chief? He was, after all, in prison for most of that time.

[Violet_Crumble]

25. That's not what I asked...

I asked if the SA regime considered him a terrorist type, which I believe isn't beside the point at all. It's the attitude of the regime towards the person they're freeing that's important. The SA regime freed Mandela even though they considered him a terrorist type. The Israeli govt considers Barghouti a terrorist type, and I think the SA example shows that some natural leaders have to be freed regardless of how they're considered by those who imprison them...

[eyl]

29. OK, now I understand what you were getting at

Yes, you could make a case that there's a pragmatic argument to releasing Barghouti despite his actions. But the OP, in part, tries to argue for his release on the basis of "he's not that bad" - and in that respect, whether he's a terrorist in the "absolute" sense does matter.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Yeah, I personally believe he's got innocent blood on his hands...

How much and the exact details of which I'm not sure, but I wouldn't mind reading up on him from somewhere that isn't out to put him on a pedestal nor paint him as responsible for all the world's ills....

I think given the circumstances, the innocent blood on other hands, and with Hamas at the helm, a pragmatic argument for his release can be made...

[Tom Joad]

22. You mean like Olmert? Nothing as gruesome as what Olmert has done

But that takes a special kind of criminality.

[Behind the Aegis]

28. So now, Olmert = Barghouti? Interesting.

[Englander]

15. From 2003;

Mandela's name comes off US terror list

By Charlene Smith

The good news is that the United States government has removed Nelson Mandela, Tokyo Sexwale and Sidney Mufamadi from its list of global terrorists.

The bad news is that the removal is only for the next 10 years. George Bush, the US president, and consular officials privately informed the three men during Bush's recent visit to South Africa, according to an official US source.

The US state department is reviewing the status of hundreds of listed South Africans. Some were listed for having convictions against them for terrorism, sabotage, treason or related offences against the apartheid state. Others were members of the guerrilla army, Umkhonto we Sizwe.

In all instances, if they apply as government ministers, they receive special dispensation to travel to the US, but if they apply as private citizens, their visas are rejected, particularly since the US has tightened visa applications in its "war against terror".

One US embassy official, who preferred to remain anonymous, denied that Mandela, Sexwale and Mufamadi were listed as terrorists, but refused to clarify what they were listed as.

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=3&art_id=ct20030810102700522T600578

[Tom Joad]

21. The USA and the ADL considered the African National Congress a terror

organization, yes. And they did carry out attacks that caused harm to civilians. That is what the Truth and Reconciliation Commission was all about, though of course most of the crimes were committed by the government to keep the apartheid system in place.

The US helped locate Mandela and told the south african regime where he was leading to his arrest in 1962.

The ADL spied on many people involved in the anti-apartheid movement (and sent that info to South Africa and Israel), and many of their actions were illegal. The ADL wasn't prosecuted but were warned, and had to apologize publicly for the despicable behavior. They were successfully sued by activists.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Sows' ears and silk purses.

[Englander]

10. Worn-out cliche.

*Again*.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. But so appropriate here.

[Englander]

23. Simplistic platitude.

*Again*

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Sometimes, simplicity is all that is needed.

[Englander]

9. Which isn't really relevant.

Since he won't be released, whilst the ultra-nationalist currently in the PMs office remains as PM.

[Englander]

11. Olmert = Botha. n/t

[Boston Critic]

17. Why free an actual terrorist?

Barghouti was a leader of the al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade, a terrorist unit of the PLO. He planned activities and funded them.

It takes an incredible blindness to pretend he was merely a politician unconnected with the violence he directly planned and controlled.

Everytime I think the Palestinian apologists can go any lower, they surprise me further.

For the facts about Barghouti the terrorist:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/4/Information%20on%20Marwan%20and%20Ahmed%20Barghouti%20-%2015-Apr

[furman]

19. CAMERA: Marwan Barghouti's Links to Terror

http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=102&x_article=351

<snip>

Marwan Barghouti Served as Secretary General of Fatah in Judea, Samaria and Gaza, a member of the Palestinian legislature, head of the Tanzim, and the founder of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades which has carried out a large number of deadly terrorist attacks killing scores of Israelis and wounding hundreds.

<snip>

he following are some of the more heinous terror attacks for which Marwan Barghouti is responsible:

Jun 12, 2001 - The murder of a Greek Orthodox monk on the road to Ma'ale Adumim.

Jan 17, 2002 - The shooting attack during a bat mitzva celebration at a banquet hall in Hadera. Six Israelis were killed in this attack, 26 were injured.

Jan 22, 2002 - The shooting spree on Jaffa Street in Jerusalem. Two Israelis were killed, 37 wounded.

Feb 25, 2002 - The shooting attack in the Jerusalem residential neighborhood of Neve Ya'acov. One Israeli policewoman was killed, 9 Israelis were wounded.

Feb 27, 2002 - The murder of an Israeli at a coffee factory in the Atarot industrial zone of Jerusalem. Feb 27, 2002 - The suicide attack perpetrated by Daryan Abu Aysha at the Maccabim checkpoint in which two policeman were injured.

March 5, 2002 - The shooting spree at the Tel Aviv Seafood restaurant. Three Israelis were killed, 31 wounded.

March 8, 2002 - A suicide terrorist was killed in Daheat el Barid as he was on his way to carry out an attack in Jerusalem.

March 27, 2002 - The interception of an ambulance and the confiscation of an explosive belt which was being smuggled from Samaria into Barghouti's terrorist infrastructure in Ramallah.

<snip>

More information about the vicitms here:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2002/8/Marwan%20Barghouti%20Indictment%20-%20Appendix-%20Terrorist

[Violet_Crumble]

26. Do you have information from more credible sources?

Both CAMERA and the israeli govt website are incredibly biased and are pretty full-on with the propaganda routine. Do you have a less biased and more credible and balanced source with information on Barghouti?

[furman]

20. Incorrect description of the "prisoners' document"

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2006/11/post_12.html#more

The Prisoners' Document does not call for a two-state solution.

More at:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=34&x_article=1132

and: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/talking/45_referendum.html

[Violet_Crumble]

27. Do you have any links that aren't propaganda sites?

Just curious...