First, we'll shoot a bit, flex a muscle

[bemildred]

The pictures are familiar, and so is the automatic response: fighter aircraft bombing a "bank of targets" and Israeli tanks positioned on the outskirts of Gaza. The justification is also present: The State of Israel cannot refrain from responding to the firing of Qassams. But the protection of Sderot residents is not the issue here, since the state could long ago have built a protective mantle for the homes and schools of Sderot. Rather, again, it is the state's prestige that is on the line.

It is the same prestige that contributed quite a bit to creating the real strategic threat facing Israel. This threat is not expressed by the terrifying Qassams that are causing Sderot residents to flee from their city, but rather by the disintegration of Gaza, by the subjection of its million and a quarter residents to the reign of gangs, by the neutralization of the ability to build a strong, united Palestinian leadership, and by the establishment of a state of terror in Gaza, which operates almost in isolation from any central Palestinian administration.

The reason for the state's prestige being in question is its need to justify the decision not to recognize the Hamas government and to impose an economic siege on the territories. At the same time, Israel has conditioned the Palestinians' ability to exist on a matter of honor - on Hamas' recognition of Israel. How ridiculous now is the tally of triumphs and defeats of Fatah versus Hamas, of corpses on one side versus corpses on the other side, and the mathematical determination that Hamas is winning on the street. Is it not the same Hamas that already won over the street in the elections last year? The same Hamas that maintained the welcome cease-fire for many long months? The same Hamas that signed the Mecca Agreement and accepted the Arab Initiative?

Hamas is not a pleasant movement. It includes elements of terror and draws its sources from a fanatical religious ideology. But Hamas and the Palestinian unity government, as long as the latter still holds up, are the best address Israel has at the moment. This government is not just the only one that has the potential to control the "State of Gaza," it is the only one that is still interested in the fate of its public and, therefore, is influenced by the pressure of that public. It is the only one that is also threatened by the firing of Qassams on Sderot. But without the means to provide benefits for its citizens, it is also paralyzed.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/861221.html

[Violet_Crumble]

1. That's a good article, bemildred...

This bit especially: 'For the thousands of residents of Sderot, who again are becoming pawns in the hands of the government of prestige, it would not have mattered how the government achieved the quiet that it enjoyed in recent months. Whether the government speaks with Hamas or opens the gates of the border passages, whether it conducts comprehensive peace talks or just suffices with a cease-fire - from their perspective, and from the perspective of most of Israel's citizenry, the quiet is the main thing.'

[bemildred]

2. I thought it was quite good. nt

[Shaktimaan]

3. I love it!

The same Hamas that maintained the welcome cease-fire for many long months?

The cease fire that consisted of daily Qassam attacks on Israel?

This government is not just the only one that has the potential to control the "State of Gaza," it is the only one that is still interested in the fate of its public and, therefore, is influenced by the pressure of that public. It is the only one that is also threatened by the firing of Qassams on Sderot. But without the means to provide benefits for its citizens, it is also paralyzed.

So Fatah and Hamas are engaged in this struggle for power, with security teams from either side executing members of their rivals because their schoolteachers aren't being paid? Of course, there seems to be plenty of money for the various security teams, doesn't there? Wait? Doesn't that mean that the ones committing the violence are in fact, the ones who ARE being paid? I wonder how Israel organized that?

Seriously, this is even more retarded than the usual tripe.

[pelsar]

4. does the author live in israel?

it would not have mattered how the government achieved the quiet that it enjoyed in recent months....er...i guess the kassams for this guy (and others) dont really count much if its below 20 a day.....

and the ever...its israels fault...

But the government will refrain from doing the essential thing - letting the Palestinian government work

correct me if i'm wrong...but the PA govt was working very well when they decided to send more rockets over to the residents of sederot.....i guess according to this guy, its ok..as long as the israeli govt doesnt interfer with the PA govt.

[bemildred]

5. Dunno. He is a Haaretz correspondent, apparently for some time.

Can't find any biographical information in a short look around. You can find lots of his articles though, and he is definitely in the "blame Israel" camp, or at least the "blame the Israeli government" camp. It's a bit odd to have no biographical info out there, I'll try some more.

[bemildred]

6. He is the Haaretz "Arab Affairs analyst"

It appears he has been around quite a long time in that capacity, and he seems to get around a lot. I would guess that he is israeli, since I see no comment otherwise. He always seems to be referred to as "Harretz correspondent" or "columnist" or "Arab Affairs analyst", and you can google up his stuff going back into the early 90s. I don't see any books of his at amazon, but he gets referenced in other peoples books.

[Shaktimaan]

7. Seriously, this article is nonsensical.

Anyone looking for analogies and rushing to compare Gaza to Somalia or Iraq, would be well advised to complete the analogy. Iraq also lacks a strong government capable of imposing order and security, but the government in Iraq, as well as the American administration, is ready to talk with everyone, including Ba'athist terror gangs and Shi'ite terror organizations, in order to achieve quiet. No reasonable person in the American administration would reject a year-long ceasefire - not to speak of a 20-year ceasefire - because of matters of prestige or recognition. The American government did not stop channeling money to the Iraqi government, even though a considerable part of it is being used to acquire weapons or ends up in private pockets. The main thing is to be able to maintain some semblance of normal life.

OK, if America won't stop funneling money to the current Iraqi government it is because we are directly responsible for them BEING the government, and are thus heavily invested in their state's welfare. The only reason America has left for having entered Iraq at all is the "building democracy" line. Should Iraq end up in a worse state than it was under Saddam, the blame lies squarely with America. Needless to say, Israel did NOT install Hamas. Should Al Qaeda win the next election in Iraq do you honestly think that we will continue to give them money? Really? Because Al Qaeda is to America as Hamas is to Israel. That's the difference.

When Saddam WAS in charge however, we did not hesitate to slam Iraq with crippling economic sanctions. At one point it was estimated that one million children died as the result of the sanctions against Iraq leading to the start of the famously corrupt oil for food program. Which slightly resembles the practice of the EU and America continuing to fund NGOs in Palestine while keeping money out of the hands of the government as best we can.

Another important distinction that is being overlooked is that any weapons that America accidentally gives to extremists in Iraq will never ever ever, no matter what, end up being used against American civilians while they are taking the bus to pick up their son at playgroup. We are invested in Iraq's stability, sure. But if we mess it up, we always have the option of leaving. Israel lacks that luxury.

Finally, requiring Hamas to recognize Israel has nothing to do with pride. If your neighbor swings by to ask if he can borrow your steak knife set but refuses to promise not to sneak back into your house later that evening to kill your whole family with it, you should not give him the knives. Especially if he has been bragging all week to your other neighbors about how he is going to kill you with your own steak knives. In that scenario, not giving him the knives is a matter of self-preservation. Not PRIDE.

Seriously, PRIDE? Who is this person?

[Violet_Crumble]

8. Yes, clearly he should blame the Palestinians for everything...

Then there would have been a torrent of posts praising him!

Finally, requiring Hamas to recognize Israel has nothing to do with pride. If your neighbor swings by to ask if he can borrow your steak knife set but refuses to promise not to sneak back into your house later that evening to kill your whole family with it, you should not give him the knives. Especially if he has been bragging all week to your other neighbors about how he is going to kill you with your own steak knives. In that scenario, not giving him the knives is a matter of self-preservation. Not PRIDE.

Seriously, PRIDE? Who is this person?

What a lame analogy. Israel is not being asked to arm Hamas. Also yr analogy fails to mention that yr neighbour lives in a house that you are occupying and treating the residents who live in it like shit.

While it would be a good move for Hamas to uncategorically recognise Israel within Israel's internationally recognised borders (this does not include any part of the West Bank or East Jerusalem), Israel would still claim that Hamas doesn't recognise Israel. That's what happened when the PLO recognised Israel, so I don't think it's about pride, but more about trying to make out that Israel shouldn't have to negotiate with groups that don't recognise it (even though Israel expects groups it doesn't recognise to talk to it and treat it with respect)...

[Shaktimaan]

9. What are you talking about?

Israel negotiated with the PLO, even signing Oslo with them and all the stuff that went along with it. Including helping to ARM THEM! (it was part of the treaty, remember? Besides, giving liquid funds to Hamas IS arming them.) Anyway, Israel accepted the letter of mutual recognition on the premise that the charter would eventually get changed which never happened.

Hamas doesn't need to recognize Israel as owning Jerusalem or admit to any set borders. They have to agree to Israel's right to exist and promise to adhere to the treaties signed by their predecessors. That's it, there's no need to make this into more than it is. They need to WANT to be a partner for peace as opposed to swearing that they will never ever ever make peace with Israel until all of Palestine is liberated (re: Israel is destroyed.) Most governments do not have the chutzpah to simutaneously declare war on a nation and then whine that they are not being given enough aid. (Where has all that aid GONE anyway? Seriously, they have been receiving a tremendous amount of aid for years, where has it all gone?)

(even though Israel expects groups it doesn't recognise to talk to it and treat it with respect)...

what group are you talking about here? Israel formally recognizes the Palestinians right to exist and has for years, so it isn't them. Hamas? Do you want Israel to formally acknowledge Hamas? Why?

[Violet_Crumble]

10. I'll make it even clearer...

Yes, Israel accepted the letters of mutual recognition, but claimed regularly in the years afterwards the the PLO didn't recognise Israel. There is absolutely no doubt at all that the PLO did recognise Israel, but that didn't matter because the Sharon govt totally ignored that and claimed that the PLO didn't recognise Israel and Israel had no-one to negotiate with...

When has Hamas complained that Israel isn't giving it enough aid? Are you confusing Palestinian tax revenue (which isn't Israel's money) being withheld with actual aid?

If Israel formally recognises the Palestinians, then why does the Likud Charter contain a bit about the West Bank being part of Israel?

[Shaktimaan]

11. The Likud charter?

Are you serious?

What does the Likud charter have to do with anything? Who cares. When has ANYONE spoken about changing the LIKUD charter? It doesn't matter. If Arafat or the PLO cared about the Likud charter then they would have asked for it to be changed. But they didn't because it doesn't mean anything. But the PLO charter does. Even if it only matters in terms of a demonstration that the Palestinians are willing and able to follow through on their comittments, in a purely symbolic way. And they haven't. Besides, the PLO is out and Hamas is in and Hamas doesn't abide by any of the previous agreements anyway. Since we KNOW that Hamas doesn't recognize Israel, what the PLO did or did not do doesn't matter much.

No one is suggesting that Israel has not stood by their decision to recognize Palestine's right to exist.

Israel's collected tax revenue being turned over to the PA is contingent on Oslo. Regardless of that, why would anyone turn over resources that could (and would) be used to buy weapons to arm a military that has declared war on it and is actively attacking? Again regardless, Hamas has been complaining quite loudly about the global decision to cut off direct aid to the PA following their refusal to consider peace. So they want their money and actually have the nerve to try and guilt trip us by painting pictures of starving Palestinian children and blaming the west for it. BUT they refuse to consider the fact that the aid is not a right and that they are expected to stop trying to eradicate Israel if they want it. We don't want to give them aid if they are just gonna spend it on guns again. That said, where the heck has all their money gone anyway? They receive more aid than almost any other nation on earth, especially in the early 2000's. I can see what Israel spent their billions of dollars on. What exactly did Palestine spend theirs on? Why don't they even have functioning sewer pipes in Gaza for all this money?

[Violet_Crumble]

12. Yes, I'm serious...

Seeing as how Sharon was the leader of Likud, and that was in their Charter, it sure as hell matters just as much as the PLO Charter matters. Do you really think it's acceptable to have stuff like that in a Charter if you haven't heard of anyone wanting to change it?

No, Israel is obligated to turn over Palestinian tax revenue and there are no excuses why it should keep money that doesn't belong to it. And you claimed Hamas was complaining because Israel wasn't giving it aid, but now you say what you meant was that Hamas has been complaining about the Israel-led boycott. That's not the same thing, and it's not just them who have had a problem with that boycott....

Gosh, do you think the reason they don't have functioning sewer pipes in Gaza for 'all this money' (btw, how much money do you think it takes to run a government?) is because Israel has this nasty habit of bombing the crap out of Gaza?

I've got a question for you. I've noticed that every time there's attempts to talk of solutions or steps that don't involve violence or things that have negative effects on the Palestinian population, you belittle it or argue that it won't work. So, what are yr ideas for steps that could be taken to at least start down the path to a solution to the conflict?