Torture widespread in Palestinian jails

[Vegasaurus]

RAMALLAH, West Bank - One detainee told of being beaten with pipes and having a screwdriver rammed into his back. Another said interrogators tied his hands behind his back then lifted him into the air by his bound wrists.

Two human rights groups on Monday decried widespread torture of political opponents by bitter Palestinian rivals Hamas and Fatah, and Associated Press interviews with three victims and a doctor backed the reports of abuse.

The Palestinian human rights group Al Haq said Monday that arbitrary arrests of political opponents have been common since Hamas' takeover of Gaza, with each side trying to defend its turf.

"Arrests for political reasons haven't stopped for a second," Al Haq director Shawan Jabarin told reporters. He estimated that before the latest sweeps, more than 1,000 people had been seized by each side.

An estimated 20 to 30 percent of the detainees suffered torture, including severe beatings and being tied up in painful positions, said Jabarin, citing sworn statements from 150 detainees.

He said three died in detention in Gaza and one in the West Bank.

"The use of torture is dramatically up," added Fred Abrahams, a senior researcher for Human Rights Watch, a U.S.-based group that is releasing its own report on abuse this week.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080728/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_torture;_ylt=AvMXnIFIsNDAr7rycmz3dC1vaA8F

Will any "progressives" get upset about this prisoner abuse and torture, or will it be excused, because it is Muslim on Muslim, as a good amount of the worldwide violence is (including four female suicide bombers in Iraq today, killing 50+ people)?

I hope to see some outrage by the very people who would be screaming if this were an Israeli or American detainment center being discussed.

[Vegasaurus]

1. Whereas Mr. Kuntar comes out of an Israeli jail

obviously malnourished and tortured

:sarcasm:

Look at the size of him: downright fat.

[iamjoy]

2. I Have Observed This Seeming Double Standard

That Muslim on Muslim (or Arab on Arab) abuse is ignored, while much is made of Israeli atrocities against Muslims/Arabs. Now, I am not saying it is OK for Israel to abuse Palestinians (or anyone else for that matter) but it is curious that it seems to provoke less outrage when Muslims or Arabs do it to their own.

Sigh. Why must people be so hateful to one another?

[LeftishBrit]

3. This is awful. Every country needs to respect basic human rights of prisoners.

[sui generis]

4. of course it's terrible

put anyone in power over an already oppressed population and you're going to have problems that don't require jewishness, israeliness, political-ness, or even chosen-ness to justify.

When we stop viewing people as chattel, when we start teaching our children that life is valuable, that there is no such thing as "the chosen people", that both actively victimizing and actively being a victim is dehumanizing, that law exists to preserve the rights of individuals and that enforcement of the law is meaningless when it sacrifices the rights of individuals, THAT's when you stop having torture in the jailhouse.

[Vegasaurus]

5. Is it Israel's fault that Muslims all over the world murder each other

because they have disagreements about religious philosophy, or for tribal reasons, or whatever reasons?

I don't think you can blame Israel for these prisoner abuses any more than you can blame Israel for the rest of the sectarian violence worldwide.

These are internal problems, not the problems of Israel.

Israel has created many problems, but not the internal problems among Muslims.

[sui generis]

6. I wasn't blaming Israel for anything

If I had I would have used plain language and left nothing to guesswork.

No, I blame religion, tribalism, poverty, fundamentalism, hopelessness and lawlessness (although having laws didn't stop our guantanamos and abu ghraibs either).

I blame US, adults, for not having any real desire to innovate for change, for not teaching our children that torture is wrong, for not leading by example in ANY jail, here, in Israel, in Egypt, in some render-to compound in Poland.

Blame aside, community law enforcement is kind of like a weed garden closed to outside inspection, where judge, jailor, and jury are all from the same tribe and you are SOL if they all agree you're a terrorist and merit special handling.

I think you got my reference to "the chosen" people, but that was quite general; god aren't we Americans the "chosen" people? Ask any talking head anchor who can't seem to finish the word "fighting" without the phrase "for our freeeeedom" what the hell he means by freedom AS IF any of us were ever even remotely threatened.

Give people the power to do evil in the absence of a moral code or a personal ethos and they must surely do it. Teach them to be caretakers, to have integrity, to believe in the why of the law and not just the what, and they may choose otherwise.

[Violet_Crumble]

7. Unfortunately, abuse often happens in prisons

even against Palestinians by Israel.

It doesn't make it right for Hamas or Fatah to do this, but they have plenty of company.

Prisoner abuse is a big problem.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=216030&mesg_id=216047

Now, unlike that example I showed from another thread, I have a problem with trying to justify or downplay torture depending on who does it. It's wrong no matter who carries it out and no matter who the victims are. But I am curious to know why would someone call this 'Muslim on Muslim' violence when the reason it's happening is political and not religious?

[Vegasaurus]

8. The conflicts between Sunni and Shia are religious

in origin, which have become political, as the two religious groups have politicized.

The more radical groups are also the more religious, less secular ones.

You can't separate things that easily.

Religion clearly plays a role.

[notfullofit]

9. And what would you call

the revitalized conflict between Hamas and Fatah happening now in Gaza?

[notfullofit]

10. "Torturing Each Other"

Al-Haq, a Palestinian human rights group, in a report released on Monday, claims that the instances of arbitrary arrests and acts of torture have increased since the internal political split between Fatah and Hamas began.

The report, “Torturing Each Other: The Widespread Practices of Arbitrary Detention and Torture in the Palestinian Territory," claims that an increase in political infighting has sparked the growing use of torture and ill-treatment of detainees by both the security forces of the de facto government in Gaza and those of the caretaker government in Ramallah. Most of these cases are politically motivated and seen as a means of exacting revenge on political enemies.

Al-Haq have carried out extensive investigations into the practices of the Palestinian security forces, through monitoring the situation in prisons and relying on the testimony of victims, eyewitnesses and lawyers and claim to have discovered a host of disturbing facts.

more
http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=30876

[Violet_Crumble]

11. Well, duh, of course. But 95% of Palestinians are Sunni, so which group do you think are Shia?

Hamas? Nope, they'd be Sunni. And it's not Fatah, who aren't even a religious group, but a secular organisation with socialist and nationalist roots. This is just a suggestion, but maybe it'd be a good idea to make sure you get simple things like this straight before going on about 'Muslim on Muslim' violence. The violence is of a political nature, and yr comment about Muslim on Muslim violence was every bit as ugly as if someone had replied to the article about a settler attacking an IDF troop with a comment saying 'Jew on Jew violence'.

Religion only plays a role in cases like these where someone wants to slap the Muslim label on just about everything. A crime happens. The person who commits it happens to be Muslim. It's suddenly Muslim violence, even though the crime had nothing to do with the person's religion. See what I mean?

[Vegasaurus]

12. You are deluding yourself if you think much of the sectarian violence in Iraq

Afganistan, Gaza/WB, etc has no religious basis.

There are more secular groups at war with more fundamentalist groups of Islam, and while these have political basis, they also differ in religious philosophy.

If there was such a thing as "Jew on Jew" violence, we would hear about it.

There isn't, so it isn't an issue.

But it is an issue that Muslim on Muslim violence as they are murdering each other worldwide.

The daily suicide bombings in Iraq are both political and religious in nature.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. I'm talking about you labelling Hamas and Fatah violence as 'muslim on muslim'...

Here's what you said in the OP about Hamas and Fatah: 'Will any "progressives" get upset about this prisoner abuse and torture, or will it be excused, because it is Muslim on Muslim,'

I'm not sure why you so pointedly ignore facts when they're pointed out to you, but I mentioned the obvious fact that 95% of Palestinians are Sunni, and Fatah is a secular organisation. The violence going on in the Occupied Territories is a power struggle. It's political, though I suspect there would be some anti-Muslim bigot types who'd stick their heads in the sand and ignore the obvious...

If there was such a thing as "Jew on Jew" violence, we would hear about it.

I want to make it very clear that I think that going on about 'Muslim on Muslim' or 'Jew on Jew' violence is a rather bigoted type of thing to say. But as you have no problems at all with labelling Palestinian political violence as 'Muslim on Muslim', then using yr standards, a settler attacking an Israeli troop, Haredi abusing and attacking Israelis who they consider to be immodest are all examples of Jew on Jew violence. Hey, and let's turn it global! I remember when an Israeli tourist was attacked and left to die in Sydney and straight away RW segments of our media blamed Muslims. Turned out it was another Israeli who'd done it after they'd had a big fight about something. More 'Jew on Jew' violence! ;)

[Vegasaurus]

14. Are Jews blowing each other up every damn day?

No.

Rest my case.

[Violet_Crumble]

15. I'm pretty sure Hamas and Fatah aren't either...

Do you have any sort of point, apart from displaying moving of the goalposts of what violence is as soon as the ugliness of what you said is applied to another religion?

[Vegasaurus]

16. What's ugly? I am just pointing out the facts

I know people don't like dealing in facts, but facts don't lie.

The fact is that Hamas and Fatah members are torturing each other.

They have also kidnapped and murdered each other.

The fact is that every single day there are suicide bombings perpetrated by Muslims, on Muslims.

I am sure you read the news and are well aware of these facts.

Moving the goal posts is to somehow try to deflect from these facts and blame all of this on Israel, or Western colonialism, or whatever else.

[Violet_Crumble]

17. What's ugly is labelling political violence as 'Muslim on Muslim' violence...

It's pretty damn clear you don't like dealing in facts, and the reason is abundantly clear.

Where did I say that Hamas and Fatah weren't engaging in torture and violence against each other? I didn't. What I've said more than once now (so it's amazing that you can't read it) is that the violence between Hamas and Fatah is political, not religious. One of the groups is secular. Do you know what secular means?

You moved the goalposts when you insisted that people blowing each other up is the violence you meant, not people merely murdering each other like the example I gave you from Sydney. And where the hell do you come up with the nonsense about me trying to blame all this on Israel? I didn't say or imply anything of the sort, so try sticking to what I actually say and think, okay?

Boy, opened a newspaper lately? There's sure a hell of a lot of 'Christian on Christian' violence happening here and in the US!! ;)

[Vegasaurus]

18. Please share

I wasn't aware of suicide bombings by Christians in Australia and and the US.

[Violet_Crumble]

19. So now yr restricting the term 'violence' to only suicide bombings...

Want to explain why you described the violence (everyone except for you would agree that it's violence) between Hamas and Fatah as violence, seeing as how they're not carrying out suicide bombings against each other?

See, that's the problem with shifting the goalposts. It ends up making yr original comment looking even more ugly and bigoted sounding than it originally was....