Who Won The 60 Year War?

[hack89]

Interesting article that argues that Israel has in fact made itself safer vis-a-viz its Arab neighbors. It interestingly points out how US military aid to Eygpt and Saudi Arabia makes Israel safer.

It’s a well-known fact that more and more Arab nations are losing their enthusiasm for making war on Israel and are adopting an air of either ambivalence, or normal diplomatic relations, with the Jewish state. What is less apparent, largely because of the latest round of fighting in the Gaza Strip and the rhetoric coming from Iran, is how far the Israelis have come in 60 years, with their nation becoming progressively safer and more secure with each passing decade.

As time has gone by, the Israelis have combined military force with some shrewd diplomatic maneuvering to progressively reduce the numbers of dangerous enemies opposing her. When the nation was founded, Israel was under threat of being destroyed almost immediately after its creation, being set upon by the entire Arab world. Fast forward to the present day, and Israel has not been invaded in over 30 years. Egypt and Jordan have both resigned themselves to the fact that they can’t beat the Israelis and the Jordanians have always been more pro-Western and sensible than most of their Arab brothers, having retained a lot of British influence in their military and government sectors.

Furthermore, the Arab states, primarily Egypt, that are well-equipped and moderately well-trained, owe their military power to the United States, which provides billions in equipment every year. Making war on Israel again would be the quickest way to lose that aid. This is something Egypt can’t risk since it can hardly afford to maintain and buy a complete range of up-to-date equipment on its own.

After 60 years, Israel has pared the number of real military threats down to Iran, and the militant groups operating in the West Bank and Gaza, areas at which their forces can strike at will. Although Iran continues to threaten the Jewish nation and Hamas still fires rockets into their territory, the days when Israel very existence was threatened have long passed into history. Today, the Arab militaries are either too broke, too dependent on Western arms supplies, or just simply resigned to Israel’s permanent existence. Any Arab nation, most likely Syria, planning a new conventional attack on Israel in the future will find itself without the benefit of the substantial allies of the past. Such an attack would be not only ill-advised, but almost suicidal.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htlead/articles/20090417.aspx

[Teaser]

1. funny they lost to Hezbollah, though

.

[hack89]

2. I don't think it is that clear cut.

One thing for certain - the IDF learned its lessons from 2006 and applied them in Gaza. In Lebanon, the IDF depended on air power to take out the rocket launchers - when they found out that they couldn't they sent in ill prepared infantry without a coherent plan.

For Gaza the infantry underwent extensive focused training before the operation started. More importantly, the IDF set up a system of constant surveillance using UAVs that fed real time targeting information directly to the troops on the ground. The Israelis were detecting and destroying targets within minutes.

Hamas tried to recreate 2006 in Gaza using Hezbollah tactics and got their asses handed to them. Warfare is about constant adaption - I think that the IDF has figured out how to counter Hezbollah. I think Hezbollah knows that too considering how quiet they were during Gaza.

[shira]

3. Hezbollah has been pretty quiet since

so it seems as though that "loss" turned out otherwise for Israel. Just the same, their "route" of Hamas hasn't led to the cessassion of rocket attacks Israel hoped for. Odd how things turn out in the ME, just when you think you have it figured out.

[Sezu]

4. Some loss. A few more like that and there will be no Hezbollah

and very little of Lebanon. talk about post-modern drivel.

[Idealism]

5. Yes, lets rejoice when Lebanon is reduced to rubble.

Maybe next time, they'll finish the job and just scorch the entire place, right?

You are sick.

[shira]

6. no, let's ignore that Hizbullah deliberately puts Lebanese citizens in harm's way

and wants as many of them dead as possible.

That's sick. And it's disgusting to ignore it or pretend it doesn't happen.

[Idealism]

7. Even if Hizbullah did that, we had 500 deaths. If Israel were to "wipe Lebanon away" it would dwarf

500 deaths. You compare several million to 500?

[shira]

8. right........"even if"

sorry, but you cannot pretend to know what happens in the region if you're going to continue to ignore and deny facts.

[Idealism]

9. Someones opinion are not facts, and as the issue is highly disputed

it stands as an accusation. You should learn the difference between fact and opinion, or perhaps look into Plato's theory of True, Justified, Belief.

[shira]

10. you've seen the evidence for yourself, read the news reports

and you say you care for Palestinian and Lebanese citizens who are exploited as human shields by Hamas and Hezbollah?

[Idealism]

11. Unlike you, I don't believe everything I read

Well, I take that back, you only believe everything that JPost, YNET, and a few other sites say

[shira]

16. your denial is disgusting....you saw plenty of evidence for yourself outside of Jpost, Ynet, etc..

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9404EFDA123FF93BA15754C0A9609C8B63

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article700920.ece

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=b4923801-9def-4606-af6a-bc5eea30b89b

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Sky-News-Archive/Article/20080641228713

=============

Robert Fisk

Pity the Nation, 2001, pp. 670-673
“Lebanese would drift from the truth -- claiming that there was no Hezbollah men firing from the village,”
“It was not the first time the guerillas had fired their missiles at the Israelis from near a U.N. position,” Fisk observed.

http://www.counterpunch.org/fisk07312006.html
How can a villager prevent the Hizbollah from firing rockets from his street? The Hizbollah do take cover beside civilian houses just as Israeli troops entering Bint Jbeil last week also used civilian homes for cover. But can this be the excuse for slaughter on such a scale?


==============
Hala Jaber – Hezbollah born with a Vengeance, p. 156

http://www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/0231108346

“The continued presence of civilians in the area is vital for the movement and protection of Hezbollah fighters: the success of the Islamic Resistance depends upon the cooperation and hospitality of the villagers for their support,”

“Hezbollah therefore demands that civilians remain in their homes and villages in the face of Israeli threats and reprisals. In return, it guarantees them assistance and ensures that they are provided with all the requirements necessary for their-day-to-day survival.”

[Idealism]

17. It is quite odd how the articles you posted are literally all allegations

made by people that weren't there.

Hezbollah uses UN posts as shields

The words of a Canadian United Nations observer written just days before he was killed in an Israeli bombing of a UN post in Lebanon are evidence Hezbollah was using the post as a ``shield'' to fire rockets into Israel, says a former UN commander in Bosnia.

So the UN official claimed because the US building was bombed, that instead of Israel fucking up (as they did often in Gaza with UN buildings), it must have been Hizbullah's fault. The evidence he has of this? Because the UN post was hit. Now that is classic, not to mention from a right-wing rag in Canada.

'Hezbollah aren't suckers, they know how to fight. You're scared all the time'
Israeli soldiers recount stories of a terrifying week facing the snipers and missiles of Hezbollah in southern Lebanon

Terrified into thinking that "everyone was an enemy" somehow equates to "everyone is Hizbullah and they are hiding among civilians?" Cmon.

Lebanese Christians, who hate Hizbullah because they are Islamists, accusing them of doing wrong? Yeah, you don't see that everyday...

[shira]

31. you didn't touch the last 3 sources like Sky News, Robert Fisk, and Hala Jaber

none of which can possibly be accused of having a pro-Israel, anti-Arab slant.

[Alamuti Lotus]

27. define 'quiet'

if by 'quiet', you mean used their enhanced national prestige to make steady gains in local and national government, forged alliances that will dominate the next parliament, and advanced their training, weaponry and surveillance tactics (including remote piloted aircraft)...yes, they have been practically silent.

[leftynyc]

34. Really?

How many Israeli's were killed? How many from Hezbollah?

[IndianaGreen]

12. It is clear that Israel has lost, not the 60-year war, but the 40-year war

Israel's standing in the world went from a David fighting a Goliath, to a rogue lawless state engaged in the most onerous human rights abuses.

[Vegasaurus]

13. in the "most onerous human rights abuses"?

You mean, worse than burying a woman up to her head, and then publicly stoning her to death?

Or hanging gay people?

Or forcing women to be covered for all but their eyeballs, not allowing them to work, or even drive?

Not allowing them even basic rights, and flogging or killing them if they are seen with someone other than a male relative?

You mean, Israel engages in more onerous human rights abuses than those?

You really are delusional.

[IndianaGreen]

14. If the crazies take over and re-establish the corrupt priesthood and the irrelevant temple

you can bet they will restore Leviticus as the law of the land, and you will see women being stoned to death simply because they offended the "chastity keepers," and LGBTs will be killed on the spot.

Israel will not make it to the middle of this century if it continues on its present course.

[Vegasaurus]

19. Women have never been stoned to death

or been denied of human rights in Judaism.

The extreme right wing ultra-orthodox is a very small minority, not the majority belief.

All over the middle east, OTOH, millions and millions of women are denied the most basic of rights.

They are treated as chattel, or worse.

Islam has managed to make it to the early part of the 20th century, all the while keeping their women in the dark ages with their sharia laws.

And you criticize Israel, while millions of people in those countries live with no human or civil rights?

Delusional!

[Vegasaurus]

20. Crickets!

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. you don't know ANYTHING about Islam or the Arab world or the Middle East

You seem to have the impression that the whole of the Middle East except for Israel is like a cross between the Talaban and Disney's Aladen.

Your whole view of the Middle East is delusional and deeply bigoted. It is no more a picture of reality then to imagine Africa as a place where savage native cannibals dance around a fire while cooking their white captives.

[Vegasaurus]

22. Apparently you know more than Human Rights Watch

and other organizations that have written for decades about the horrific human rights abuses in the middle east.

Glad you know more than these people, who are directly in the field studying and documenting the situation.

[Vegasaurus]

23. This is but one of hundreds and hundreds of articles

Do you think that these are "bigoted" views of the way women are treated? it IS savage behavior, and should never ben excused.

Before 9/11, the world had barely squinted at women covered like blue mushrooms under burqas, living under the Taliban's house arrest. They had no public face, no public voice. They couldn't work. They couldn't go to school. They were beaten for an exposed ankle and killed for a supposed violation. They were even forbidden to laugh out loud.

Some saw this as the continuation of an ancient repressive culture, but the truth was far more chilling. Afghan women had slowly gained rights through the 20th century. They helped write their country's 1964 constitution. They served in parliament and went to universities. They were 40 percent of the doctors and 70 percent of the teachers. Then the Taliban turned their homeland into a patriarchal jail.

After we invaded the country that had given safe haven to al Qaeda, even President George W. Bush repeatedly described the emancipation of women as one thing that made the war worthwhile. In his 2002 state of union speech, he declared: ''Today women are free and are part of Afghanistan's new government.'' Mission accomplished?

Indeed, women in Kabul and elsewhere threw off their burqas and girls went to school. The new Afghan constitution enshrined equality and things were far better. But gradually, American attention wandered and the Taliban and warlords began to return.

Taliban, the Sequel? In 2007, 236 schools teaching girls were burned down. In 2008, there were attacks on 256 schools that left 58 dead. Teachers have been killed in front of students and schoolgirls attacked with acid. Honor killings are up, burqas are back in many places. A 75-year-old woman was nailed to a tree and killed, and an Afghan member of parliament had her daughter legally taken away by a husband after he married a second wife.

http://www.miamiherald.com/opinion/other-views/story/993235.html

[Vegasaurus]

24. Human Rights Watch speaks

Millions of women throughout the world live in conditions of abject deprivation of, and attacks against, their fundamental human rights for no other reason than that they are women.


Abuses against women are relentless, systematic, and widely tolerated, if not explicitly condoned

Afghanistan: New Law Threatens Women’s Freedom
Shia Personal Law Should Be Repealed or Amended to Protect Rights

APRIL 14, 2009



President Karzai should not sacrifice women for short-term political deal-making. He is playing with fire. How will he be able to refuse demands for similar discriminatory laws from other communities?


(New York) - The government of Afghanistan should listen to the Afghan women who are planning to hold a protest on April 15, 2009, at great personal risk, and repeal or reform the Shia Personal Status law, Human Rights Watch said today.

The new law regulates marriage, divorce, and inheritance for the country's Shia population. It includes provisions that require a woman to ask permission to leave the house except on urgent business, a duty to "make herself up" or "dress up" for her husband when demanded, and a duty not to refuse sex when her husband wants it.

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/14/afghanistan-new-law-threatens-women-s-freedom

Again, this is an OK way to treat women, Douglas?

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. well its good to see Human Rights Watch finally well respected

Of course your Human Rights Watch reports which you have posted concerns Afghanistan - not part of the Arab world and I'm not sure one can say it is part of the Middle East. Even remote regions of Saudi Arabia are centuries ahead of Afghanistan under the Talaban.

Throughout most of the Arab world woman compose more than 50% of University students and are rapidly evolving into the majority of the professional class. There is still a long, long, long way to go even in the most modern part of the Arab world - but it is still a far, far cry from Afghanistan and a far, far cry from how thing were only two decades ago.

I have in fact lived in the Middle East approximately half my life and yes, I do know something about. I have seen with my own eyes the changes and the progress that have been astounding over the past decades. I am even vain enough to be grateful that I have at times and in very small ways done what I could to improve things in this part of the world.

I do in fact rejoice in the work of the good people from Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International and other groups. They deserve at least as much credit for their work in the Arab world as they deserve credit for their good work in Israel and the Occupied Territories. I even rejoice in pressure that the Arab and Islamic countries have at times received from Western governments as well as NGO's and at times and in some circumstances even the International media in focusing attention on these issues.

The Middle East, like Latin America, Africa and Asia and even Israel and the Western world have plenty of human rights abuses which no reasonable person denies.

What is not accurate is this fantasy view of the Middle East - a place which encompasses several countries and several cultures and several different standards.

There is no ONE single picture of the Middle East that reflects the entire region anymore than there is one single picture of Latin America, Africa, Asia or even the Western world.

I have every bit of confidence in the motives of organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International. Unfortunately there are those who are determined to derail any possibility of reconciliation between the Arab and Islamic world and Israel and the western world and they love to bring up the most extreme examples in order to convince people that peace is impossible.

Nothing discredits modernity and western democracy more than when western governments including the United States and Israel preach democracy and human rights out of one side of their mouth while undermining democracy and human rights with their actions.

One of the greatest advantages of a just and lasting peace between Israel and the Arab world would be the shift of focus that would occur. A just and lasting peace between the Arab world and Israel will do more for facilitating democracy and human rights throughout the region than all the military power and force in the world.

[Vegasaurus]

29. Have there not been cases of women being stoned to death in Gaza?

I understand that Afghanistan is in a human rights abuse class of itself.

And what you see is encouraging.

However, there continues to be poor treatment of women (do honor killings make any sense in the modern world?) in many or most of those countries.

If it is religious law, even having a state wouldn't change the situation for Palestinian women.

Sharia law exists in countries where the US and Israel have no influence.

[Douglas Carpenter]

30. no the vast majority of Middle Eastern countries do not practice stoning to death

and if they do observe Sharia Law (with some exceptions like Saudi Arabia) they practice it is a very lose form.

Most honor killing has nothing to do with Sharia Law or any religious law or any civil law either and it happens completely outside the legal system. It still occurs, but in perspective there are still far more domestic homicides in the United States then there are in the Middle East, even with honor killing. It is relatively rare.

Palestinian society has long had woman holding significant roles, being part of the professional workforce and holding positions of leadership and it cannot even remotely be compared to say Saudi Arabia much less Afghanistan.

Palestinian women do not want the occupation any more than Palestinian men. Nothing discredits western democracy more in the eyes of both Arab women and Arab man than America's all-too-often support for a one-sided policy. This weakens throughout the entire Middle East the whole appeal of Western values, including the credibility and appeal of western style democracy. If one wants to politically marginalize organizations like Hamas, it can only be done when people have secular and democratic alternatives that can deliver and the western world will deal with fairly. Hamas was a small and marginal organization until it became apparent to the Palestinian people that their hope for freedom and independence under a more secularist movement was not being fulfilled and could see no hope that they would be fulfilled.

[Vegasaurus]

37. There were four honor killings in a week in Gaza

just this month.

[Douglas Carpenter]

38. self delete - sorry, an over reacton

.

[Vegasaurus]

39. That story was reported in Ma'an news

or do you consider that to be an "extremist hate site"?



Bethlehem – Ma’an – A woman was killed on Monday morning in the Gaza Strip in the fourth killing related to so-called “family” honor in the last week.

According to information collected by the Palestinian Center for Human Rights (PCHR), 28-year-old Rihab Al-Hazin, from An-Nusseirat Refugee Camp was killed by her 21-year-old brother, who told police he killed his sister to ‘maintain family honor.’

Al-Hazin’s body was brought to the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Hospital in the city of Deir Al-Balah at 3am on Monday, according to PCHR. The body was then referred to the forensic medicine department at Ash-Shifa Hospital in Gaza City.

Last Thursday, three members of the Olaiwa family were killed in Gaza City. Police found three bodies belonging to Sufian Arafat Olaiwa, 45, his wife, Miriam Al-Majdoub Olaiwa, 30, and their son, Jawhar Sufian Olaiwa, 5, in their houses in the Ash-Shuja’iyya neighborhood in the east of Gaza City. Each had been shot several times. Later, police arrested three members of the same family.

http://maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=37098

Also, quit with the negatives--I am ALL for people working together.

I am, however, opposed to human and civil rights abuses, and see no reason to herald a government (Hamas) that routinely kills or kidnaps people, just for not following their hatefilled agenda.

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. please note that the Palestinian media and Palestinian human rights organizations are in fact

addressing these issues. The fact that the Palestinian media and Palestinian human rights organizations are treating it as a very serious crime - is a very good thing. I would doubt very much that even Hamas would approve.

Fortunately, honor killing is a relatively rare event - but it does occur - almost always outside of the law and without any recognized authority - just as domestic murder in the United States does occur even more often.

In an utterly lawless place like Gaza - especially in the aftermath of massive military destruction - I would venture an educated guess that honor killing like any domestic murder anywhere occurs much more often. Domestic abuse of all sorts skyrockets everywhere in the world when people are living in chaos - especially chaos found in the after effects of war. This is true everywhere.

If you check google - you will find one extremist hate site after another running with the story - and I doubt they are motivated by concern for Arab women.

Sorry, about my earlier harshness. I was already upset about comments made to another poster on another thread.

[Vegasaurus]

41. Apology accepted

I know a lot of extremist sites were running that story, but most linked back to Ma'an anyway.

I understand that many are not concerned for Arab women, but I actually AM concerned about all of these human and civil rights abuses.

Including those perpetrated by Israelis.

While cases of domestic violence do rise in times of chaos or stress, I am more worried about religious law either sanctioning or condoning violence against women.

Although there is plenty of violence against women in the US, these are crimes, punishable by law.

It is not the law that punishes the victim, as under Islamic religious law.

Stoning women for having their ankles showing or not having sex with their husbands or being adulterous?

This violence is horrible, barbaric behavior and people all around the world must speak up about it, so that the perpetrators are punished, not the women victims of misogyny.

[Douglas Carpenter]

42. again, what I am not sure you grasp is that this kind of extreme form of Sharia

that would stone women "for having their ankles showing or not having sex with their husbands or being adulterous" is practiced regularly in very few places in the Middle East. Such punishments would very much be an exception even in Saudi Arabia. It would have not been as exceptional twenty years ago. I doubt that there are more than a few cases of such punishments being carried these days, even in Saudi Arabia. Now outside the Middle East in Afghanistan or the northern tribal regions of Pakistan, such practices might very well be common. I cannot say that I know very much about that area.

For a punishment to actually be carried out under the official sanction of Sharia law, it is actually fairly complicated. For example, the law which in theory can lead to the death penalty for adultery - or other sexual acts requires under Sharia law a minimum of four eye witnesses who would swear under oath that that they personally watched an act of sexual penetration. Needless to say that is highly improbable unless they are prosecuting makers of porn or producers of live sex shows. In other words, to carry out a punishment under Sharia law for a sex crime is not that common and is extremely complicated.

Honor killing of course, almost always occurs outside the law or any official sanction. Given the nature of clan society in Arab culture, there has been a tendency of authorities to stay outside of matters that they consider "family business." As we can see there are those who are raising this issue. As you have pointed out, the Palestinian media and Palestinian human rights organizations are raising the issue. People like Queen Noor of Jordan have made the issue a personal cause. It is after all illegal in every Arab country. I agree that the laws have not been adequately enforced. But again, I feel it is important to understand that it is simply not that common and certainly less common than domestic homicide in the United States. Even in a country as strict as Saudi Arabia - the only Arab country which seriously tries to enforce Sharia law, there are probably no more than a few honor killing per years in the entire country of more than 27 million people.

Most major Arab cities these days are modern, vibrant and cosmopolitan. All the pleasure and luxuries of life and even vices and sins of the flesh are as abundantly available as they are anywhere on earth - in fact probably more so - though social custom may require a bit more discretion.

[Vegasaurus]

43. Your optimism on women's rights in the middle east is not shared

by those who fear fundamentalist control of Islam. These crimes against women are based in the Koran, which needs a modern interpretation. Let's hope it is changing. But flogging a teenage girl for going out of the house alone doesn't sound like much of a change.

This was in today's New York Times.

In Afghanistan, 300 brave women marched to demand a measure of equal rights, defying a furious mob of about 1,000 people who spat, threw stones and called the women “whores.” The marchers asserted that a woman should not need her husband’s consent to go to school or work outside the home.

In Pakistan, the Taliban flogged a teenage girl in front of a crowd, as two men held her face down in the dirt. A video shows the girl, whose “crime” may have been to go out of her house alone, crying piteously that she will never break the rules again.

-snip-

If the Islamic world is going to enjoy a revival, if fundamentalists are to be tamed, if women are to be employed more productively, then moderate interpretations of the Koran will have to gain ascendancy. There are signs of that, including a brand of “feminist Islam” that cites verses and traditions suggesting that the Prophet Muhammad favored women’s rights.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

[Violet_Crumble]

44. Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East., but you've already been told that...

..and I find it particularly pathetic that yr trying to tell someone who actually lives in the Middle East that you know more than they do about what goes on there when it comes to reform.

[Vegasaurus]

45. Afghanistan and Pakistan are usually lumped with the middle east and you know it

I am only posting an oped from today's New york Times, not claiming to know more than someone who lives there.

But as long as there continue to be weeks of four honor killings in Gaza (just last month), stonings and floggings of women for leaving the house unaccompanied, etc., there are still big problems in the way the Koran suggests women should be treated.

There hasn't been nearly enough reform.

If you don't like Kristoff's op ed, talk to him.

I only posted it, he wrote it.

[Violet_Crumble]

46. I'm quite sure Islamophobes lump it all in together...

..but that doesn't mean they're right. See, trying to conveniently lump Afghanistan as part of the Middle East means you have to also include countries like Georgia and Armenia, along with a bunch of other ex-Soviet countries with too many syllables for me to get out at this time of the evening. And the way you keep on morphing from going on about the Middle East to going on about Islam makes me suspect that you seem to think if a country has a Muslim majority, then it's the Middle East, though I'm at a loss as to how you'd include the most populous Muslim country in the world, Indonesia into it....

If you were not trying to make out you know more than someone who lives in the Middle East, you wouldn't have told him that his optimism on women's issues in the Middle East isn't shared. You wouldn't be repeating the same stuff over and over, even though Douglas has been explaining things to you. Ignoring what other people say is something you should work on overcoming, because you might actually learn something...

I've read a lot of stuff from feminists who are concerned about women's rights in some Middle Eastern countries, and I strongly encourage you to do the same. As a feminist, I've got no patience with those who hide behind a claim that their concern is for women when it's abundantly clear that they're using those women to peddle their moronic hatred of Islam and Muslims....

[Douglas Carpenter]

47. actually the Koran does not teach that. and Judeo/Christian Bible is also full of some pretty

shocking punishments as well,

As far as the Arab world is concerned, only Saudi Arabia even attempts to enforce a strict version of Sharia Law. And even Saudi Arabia is not enforcing things the way you describe.

Most Arab cities are modern, cosmopolitan and vibrant places.

I would encourage you to take a quick side trip to Amman Jordan or perhaps Abu Dhabi or Dubai - next time you are visiting in the Middle East. Yes you can visit Jordan or the UAE even with an American passport with an Israeli visitors visa stamped in it.



Again, if one sited a practice say in Peru and Bolivia as examples of what happens in Christian countries - I think that would be a bit of a stretch if one called it an example of what goes on in Christendom.

I have never in my life heard of Pakistan or Afghanistan being considered part of the Middle East. Although maybe some people do think of it that way. I don't know.

[IndianaGreen]

26. "Never?"

9. Death penalty for adultery

“If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.” (Lev. 20:10)

http://www.pflagdetroit.org/admonitions_in_leviticus.htm

And on the Xtian side of the ledger, there is the story of the woman that was going to be stoned to death for adultery, and Jesus intervened to stop it.

[Vegasaurus]

28. So are there cases of Jewish adulterers being put to death?

in Sharia law, women are put to death for even more minor offenses.

So, while religious texts may condone this, only modern day Islam has religious law in place where women actually ARE put to death for adultery.

[Douglas Carpenter]

32. actually Saudi Arabia is the only Arab country where that would be likely to occur

and even there it is quite rare and it is far less likely than it would have been - say twenty years ago. I cannot say it has not happened elsewhere - but it would be extremely rare.

Most so-called honor killings occur outside any recognized judicial process including Sharia law. As I mentioned above, to give an idea of how rare it would be, there are still far fewer domestic homicides in the Middle East than there is in the United States, even with the barbaric practice of honor killing.

Actually Saudi Arabia is the only Arab country which comes anywhere close to imposing a strict version of Sharia Law. Some other countries have Sharia Courts, but mostly for handling civil matters and their interpretation of Sharia would rarely (but I cannot say never)follow the hardline approach. Even Saudi Arabia's Sharia courts are not at all comparable to Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Still, less I be misunderstood, let me make it crystal clear that I agree that the Middle East has a lot of work to do to improve on human rights - especially the rights of woman. As much as I rejoice in the incredible progress that has been made in the past few decades, I strongly, strongly support the work of groups like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.

One of the great side effects if America changes its attitude toward the Arab and Islamic world and becomes more critical of the Israeli Occupation - is that it will remove a lot of the defensiveness and increase western credibility on issues of human rights in the Arab countries. One of the great side effects of a just and lasting peace between the Arab world and Israel is that this will open real opportunities to change the focus and open the doors for greater self-criticism.

[azurnoir]

15. The premise is silly as who won implies the "war" is over

last I looked Israel rejected a Peace Initiative presented by the Arabs the war as it were is far from over, Israel did sign treaties with Egypt and Jordan but that could be called a draw

[Alamuti Lotus]

18. clearly chauvinist, military-complex propaganda

[Bragi]

33. Israel lost the war and lost legitimacy; not sure who won /nt

[Kurska]

35. If Israel lost the war it wouldn't exist

[Bragi]

36. I think that's where Israel is now headed /nt