Holocaust museum opens in Palestinian village

[oberliner]

A museum commemorating the Holocaust was inaugurated on Tuesday in the Palestinian village of Na'alin, which has become a symbol for the struggle against the separation fence.

At noon the residents, led by Mayor Ayman Nafaa, were scheduled to hold their own "march of the living" to mark Holocaust Remembrance Day and protest the fence.

"If leaders on both sides know and remember what Hitler did, maybe we'll have peace," Ibrahim Amira, a Na'alin resident and one of the leaders of the fight against the fence told Ynet.

Last year 11-year old Ahmed Moussa and Yousef Amira were killed by IDF gunfire during an anti-fence demonstration in the village. Lawyer Khaled Mehamid from Umm al-Fahm, who four years ago established a Holocaust museum in his hometown, came to console the families.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3704400,00.html

[safeinOhio]

1. If there is a just God

These will be the new Chosen People.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

2. If there was a just God then this museum would never have been built

because there would not have been a holocaust to commemorate.

We can't be sure that there is no God or gods. We can be sure that, if there is a supreme being, they aren't remotely just.

[aranthus]

3. One of the hardest things for people to understand and come to terms with,

is that there can be a just God who allows people to be unjust. The Holocaust does not prove that God is unjust anymore than the actions of these Palestinians proves that God is just. The actions only prove the character of the people doing them. The concept of a just God does not mean that God will enforce justice on us in this world. Rather it means that God expects us to be just. That expectation would be meaningless if God forced us to act a certain way.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

4. This will be interesting.

Firstly, I don't buy the notion often promoted here that Palestinians are completely ignorant of the Holocaust.

I'm sure Oberliner can provide umpteen links to disprove me and show 99.9% of paletsinians are complete ignoramouses. However, every Palestinian I knew -- in Ramallah, in Gaza... were all very well aware of the Holocaust, and felt as they they were paying a steep price for what European Jews experienced in WWII.

What I think some Palestinians don't have is the emotional connection. They might know facts, but there aren't avenues in which to experience the event.

I remember watching Schindler's List with my BIL who was visiting from Gaza. it was the first Holocuast movie he'd ever seen. He cried watching that... unusual for this big, burly guy. The reality is though, that for people who have experience in the Palestinian narrative, once they experience an emotional response to that event, a common reaction is to ask: how can they turn around and do what they do to us?

Ultimately, I think sharing an understanding of our human suffering is a good thing. Hopefully, there can one day be museums in Israel that testify to the suffering that Zionism has caused the people of Palestine. Surely we can all agree that it's equally important for Israelis to understand Palestinian suffering and the ways in which it informs life in Palestine today.

[cali]

5. "for what European Jews experienced in WWII"?

You mean the destruction of European Jewery? I'm sorry but suggesting that what the Jews of Israel are doing to Palestinians, terrible as the occupation is, is not what even close to what happened to European Jews. Not in scope, not in intent, not really in any meaningful way.

So though I agree that understanding human suffering is a good thing, and I don't think a museum in Israel dedicated to the suffering of the Paletinians under Israeli occupation would be amiss, your comparison is morally odious.

[Douglas Carpenter]

6. oh come on, you know perfect well PM was not suggesting that

You could have focused on how moved her Palestinian husband was when he watched Schindler's List instead of looking for things to pick at from the one person on this forum who genuinely understands the reality of the occupations.

just a couple of days ago - PM told off someone for making the comparison between the occupations and the Nazis -

From Progressive Muslim's Thread - The quintessential Palestinian experience

Sat Apr-18-09 03:42 PM

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x271747

Progressive Muslims reply to another poster who made a comparison to the Nazis:

"I posted this so people could read about this woman's experience, raising these 2 kids, trying to go home... and identify with her as a fellow human being.

When you equate her experience with a Jew during Nazi times, you shift the whole conversation.

it hijacks the thread, and now we'll have a huge debate about anti-semitism.

I don't know you, don't know if you're pro-Palestinian, but these kinds of statements don't help our cause. They hurt us.

Palestinians face many difficulties, especially those who can't travel, who are stuck in camps, who live in Gaza.

But Leila El-Haddad's experience is not the equivalent of a Jewish person under Hitler. She's back home, safe and warm, in the arms of family here in the States."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=124x271747

[cali]

7. I agreed with her where I agreed with her

I didn't see that post by PM, and I'm glad to see that, but sorry, she did express that the Israeli Jews were doing to the Palestinians what was done to them.

And I've seen too many statements by PM that lead me to take her at her word when she writes something like the comment in post that I responded to.

[Violet_Crumble]

28. PM didn't say that Israeli Jews were doing to the Palestinians what was done to them...

I'm assuming it was this line you've read like that: 'a common reaction is to ask: how can they turn around and do what they do to us?' If so, she wasn't saing they're doing to another people what was done to them. She's saying that a common reaction of people who are suffering is to ask how a people with such a terrible history of suffering can turn around and mistreat them. There's no trying to compare the level of suffering at all....

One of the problems when it comes to this conflict is that some on both sides think that only their suffering counts. There's a real need for both Israelis and Palestinians to acknowledge the suffering of the other, and to stop seeing doing that as some sort of *letting the team down* betrayal type of thing...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

29. Don't waste your breath, VC.

Cali is vested in her categorization of me. What I actually write or believe is hardly the point anymore.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. Ah, I didn't consider it a waste of breath...

And what you write and believe is most definately the point, especially when you share stuff like you did about yr nephew* watching Schindler's List and crying. That sort of post is worth a million of the white-noise, yelling and screaming type of posts that are more often than not what appears in this forum. Cali and I used to yell at each other a fair bit, but those days are long in the past, and when it comes to my discussions in this forum with her at least, I've found her to be reasonable and someone who leaves thoughtful and constructive replies to my posts. Which is why I don't see it as a waste of breath to explain to her why you didn't say what she thought you did....

* one word was inserted cleverly in this post to give Oberliner something to chew on and post about for the next twenty posts. Can anyone else spot it? ;)

[ProgressiveMuslim]

35. What turned the tide?

Frankly, I have no idea who to try to dialogue with someone who can read what I wrote above and attack me. I just don't know how to move forward from that!

It bewilders me. One of the downfalls of cyber communication, I guess.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. I honestly don't know...it just seems to have evolved that way...

All I can suggest is that when someone misunderstands or gets the wrong idea of something that's said, to go back and explain why they got the wrong end of the stick. Many times it'll do the trick and other times it doesn't and then when it's time to give it a miss...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

38. Done that many times.

Met with increasing invective. I guess I don't really care enough to continue to try.

No biggie.

[oberliner]

10. There was no reference to the poster's husband watching or being moved by Schindler's List

Maybe you should re-read the post.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

12. Brother in law. Big dif.

As always... focus on minutia and miss the point.

[shaayecanaan]

22. That should be "minutiae"

just wanted to save Oberliner the trouble of a post.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

37. ROTFLOL!

[Douglas Carpenter]

24. oh that's what BIL means, silly me

Well I guess that totally changes everything - if it was your Palestinian brother-in-law rather than your Palestinian husband that was moved to tears by watching Schidler's list.

I guess that makes the whole point of the story totally different. :sarcasm:

:crazy:

[Violet_Crumble]

31. This reminds me of a meeting I was in a while ago...

Our manager was running through a list of changes that were happening in the restructure and referred to another team with the acronym they were known by. Immediately the anal-retentive guy in our team jumps up and interjects with 'you got their name wrong! They've been known as ASS since last week when they changed their name from WANK!' And when my manager tried to move on and fill us in on what were pretty important changes, Big B interjects again with: 'ASS sent out an email to everyone informing them of their name-change.' And a few minutes later right in the middle of something I really wanted to hear, he pops in again with 'Obviously email isn't a very effective form of communication as the message seems to have been lost that WANK are now known as ASS.' By this point the loud sighs and eye-rolling from everyone else present was firing him up more, and he finished off with a killer blow to show that the meaning of the restructure hadn't been lost on him at all in favour of pointless minutae: 'I really think we have to ensure that in future we accurately reflect the correct name of other teams. We have to go back through all our dealings with them since they changed their name to ASS and make sure we haven't been inaccurately referring to them with the wrong name. I can head up the team to do this!'

From what I've read in this thread and the Desmond Tutu one, Big B has finally met his match!

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. Can you even conceive of the principle of honesty? Not just whether or not something is technically

true?

Is this some kind of game for you?, how can to trick and deceive people while saying things that might plausibly be argued to be technically accurate?

You could have said, "actually it was her brother-in-law" that would have been both technically correct and honest.

But intentionally phrasing things in ways that might hold technically accuracy while being completely misleading is certainly not honest.

[oberliner]

26. What is the trick or deception?

I urged you to re-read the post because you clearly misread something.

It happens to the best of us!

[ProgressiveMuslim]

11. Don't waste your breath Doug.

Honestly, I regret ever sharing anything real on this forum.

Those who hate Palestinians will hate me.
Those who support palestinians might find something in what I've shared.

It's really quite pointless to try to get a real dialogue going here because it's always the same result.

[oberliner]

16. What is the dialogue that you want to get going?

Are you open to having some of your views challenged?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

18. And really, are you suggesting my views of the Holocaust need to be challenged? nt

[oberliner]

19. More the relationship between the Holocaust and the I/P conflict

I think there is a lot of misinformation around that relationship that is out there.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

20. How do you see that relationship?

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Violet_Crumble]

33. Now yr in the thread, all chance at any constructive dialogue is gone...

Why don't you try reading the thread before hitting that reply button? And stop accusing other posters of things they haven't said...

[ProgressiveMuslim]

34. Self-delete. Hardly worth it.

[Crunchy Frog]

23. Are you?

[oberliner]

27. Absolutely

I have gained such a better understanding of this conflict from the messages I have read on this board and the articles to which they have linked.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

9. I am making no comparison of any kind. I'm talking about two group sof enemies getting

to know one another.

Are you suggesting only one side has a story worth learning about? Parsing 4 words I've written, as though I didn't express enough horror at the holocaust is really over the edge Cali.

Honestly, you owe me an apology.

I am seriously trying to discuss how an emotional experience of holocaust awareness will impact people in Palestine. I really see no reason why I should be attacked for that.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

21. I reiterate: There is NOTHING wrong with what I said or how I phrased my post.

Your attack on me is completely unfounded.

[oberliner]

8. I have never ever made any claim about Palestinians being ignoramuses

I have no idea why you would invoke me in that manner but I find it to be grossly unfair.

Do you think the establishment of this museum is a positive or negative development?

[ProgressiveMuslim]

13. Maybe you should re-read my post.

I am sure you can find links to invalidate what I'm saying about palestinian knowledge of the holocaust. I apologize for being over the top in my characterization of your zeal for accuracy lately.

[oberliner]

14. I don't have any such links

I have no idea why you would think I would have any information of that nature.

[ProgressiveMuslim]

15. Lately you have exhibited much

zeal for accuracy in what is discussed. I absolutely would not be surprised if you had data to disprove me.

Sorry for going over the top.