Barak: Gaza probe shows IDF among world's most moral armies

[Scurrilous]

<snip>

"The Israel Defense Forces announced on Wednesday that an internal investigation has determined that no civilians were purposefully harmed by IDF troops during Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip.

Following the release of the investigation results, Defense Minister Ehud Barak said that the army's willingness to probe itself "once again proves that the IDF is one of the most moral armies in the world.

"The IDF is not afraid to investigate itself and in that, proves that its operations are ethical," said Barak. The defense minister added that he has "complete faith in the IDF, from the chief of staff to the last of the combat soldiers."

The inquiries were performed by five IDF colonels who were not involved in the fighting in Cast Lead, and examined reports of attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure, medical personnel and facilities, United Nations facilities, and also the use of white phosphorous.

The investigation, which was supervised by IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi, did find cases of civilians killed by mistaken fire on the part of IDF troops, but said the incidents were isolated.

Deputy IDF Chief of Staff General Dan Harel said that in the dozens of cases they examined, they found that throughout Cast Lead the IDF "adhered to international law and maintained a high level of professionalism and morality."

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[Crunchy Frog]

1. After my own careful self examination, I've concluded that I'm

the most beautiful, charming, intelligent, moral and humble human being in existance.

See how easy that is? :)

[Scurrilous]

2. ROFL

:thumbsup:

[JohnyCanuck]

7. Of course, there will always be those who disagree.

The old man sat in the light of a kerosene lamp and looked bleakly ahead. His wife sat in the opposite corner, crying loudly “They soiled our sheets, haram, haram, they broke our bed, fired guns in our bed and,” the old man said, “they took all our money. The day after they left, we found a 100 shekel note in the garden, that’s all”

He was talking about the Israeli occupation of his house to a foreign photographer who had come to film the destruction in North of the Gaza Strip.

SNIP

What happened next? “The Israelis came and pointed their guns at us. They told us to get into the back room, where the shots had been fired, and to stay there, and they went on to the roof. They told us that if we moved, they would shoot us. They went upstairs, they stole my money, soiled the beds, left condoms everywhere. They fired holes in the bed -- for what? While people were dying they were making love with each other in our bed, and then they destroyed it. All our money was in the mattress, everything for the whole family, and they took it all. then after three days, they left. Just left”

His family of seven children and his wife listened in the gloomy light. “There is no glass in the windows, and we cannot afford even to buy plastic sheets,” said Mrs Al Atar. “The UN gave us some blankets, but we have no money to repair anything and no one helps us. No one. And it is cold, even our clothes they cut up and soiled -- look, look at these cuts, why, why they do this, why?”

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_4614.shtml

[TheMadMonk]

3. Oh really? So why do they try so hard to make sure...

...it's their version of events which gets out and do their damndest to prevent truly independent reporters from having their say?

[Crunchy Frog]

4. Even the talkback over at Haaretz isn't buying this.

I wonder if we'll see anybody over here trying to defend this.

[shira]

10. you think the people of Israel who are in the IDF....like all of them....think the IDF report is BS?

Or do you think maybe they're not critical enough of their own IDF and don't know (like you apparently believe) how terrible the IDF really is? As if they don't read Haaretz or Ynet, watch their own TV, or listen to their own radio criticizing IDF actions?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. Some do, some don't.

Reading talkbacks on sites like ynetnews and the Jerusalem post website, it's clear that most of the Israeli posters there have an incredible capacity for double-think, and completely ignore and dismiss evidence of IDF abuses because they don't want it to be true.

But there are some Israelis taking a more responsible attitude - e.g.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1239710762794&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1080460.html
http://www.ynet.co.il/english/articles/0,7340,L-3705630,00.html

but, unfortunately, while you're doing it, look at the talkback responses to them - it's clear that most Israelis just don't want to know, and hate being told.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't stop him spewing propaganda.

[azurnoir]

5. Does Ashkenazi have a daughter named Snow? n/t

[Sebastian Doyle]

6. Orwell would be proud

War is Peace
Freedom is Slavery
Ignorance is Strength
IDF is Moral.

[IndianaGreen]

8. Donald Rumsfeld would be proud as well.

Barak gives me flashbacks to Tony Blair's lapdog behaviour in following Bush into Iraq.

[Jefferson23]

9. Yes, this means a lot, has the similar level of confidence we had with Bush and

the DOD report.

DOD Pundit Report Finds No Wrongdoing
By Zachary Roth - January 16, 2009, 4:30PM

The DOD's just-released report on its TV pundit hiring program finds that the department did not violate prohibitions on using public finds for propaganda by ceding the networks with retired military analysts (RMAs).http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/01/dod_pundit_report_finds_no_wrongdoing.php

Yep, some folks believed that one too.

[Alamuti Lotus]

12. And so Barak passes completely into delusion

This kind of jibberjabber would be cute if he didn't have such a (growing) body count to his name.

[Scurrilous]

13. Israel's Gaza report 'lacks credibility': Amnesty

<snip>

"The Israeli army's investigation into its recent war in Gaza "lacks credibility" and is no substitute for an independent probe, London-based rights organisation Amnesty International said Thursday.

The Israeli army on Wednesday defended its conduct during the 22-day offensive against Hamas, saying five investigations carried out by the military found the army "operated in accordance with international law."

But Amnesty said the army briefing "lacks crucial details" and failed to explain the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths during the war, including incidents involving shooting at medical facilities.

"In the absence of the necessary evidence to substantiate its allegations, the army?s claims appear to be more an attempt to shirk its responsibilities than a genuine process to establish the truth," it said in a briefing note.

"Such an approach lacks credibility."

Amnesty urged Israel to cooperate with a UN commission headed by former international prosecutor Richard Goldstone to probe allegations of crimes during the offensive."

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[Douglas Carpenter]

14. Human Rights Watch: Israel/Gaza: Israeli Military Investigation Not Credible

Israel and Hamas Should Cooperate With UN Investigation
April 23, 2009

link:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/23/israelgaza-israeli-military-investigation-not-credible

" (Jerusalem) - The Israeli military's findings about the conduct of its forces in Gaza, announced on April 22, lack credibility and confirm the need for an impartial international inquiry into alleged violations by both Israel and Hamas, Human Rights Watch said today. Israel and Hamas should cooperate with Justice Richard Goldstone, the eminent international jurist appointed by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate serious laws-of-war violations during the recent conflict.

"The investigative results make clear that the Israeli military will not objectively monitor itself," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "The conclusions are an apparent attempt to mask violations of the laws of war by Israeli forces in Gaza. Only an impartial inquiry will provide a measure of redress for the civilians who were killed unlawfully. "

After major hostilities ended in Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) created five teams headed by colonels to investigate the conduct of Israeli soldiers during "Operation Cast Lead," from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009. The teams examined attacks in which the military fired upon United Nations facilities, attacks on medical facilities and crews, claims of harm to civilians not involved in hostilities, the use of white phosphorous munitions, and the destruction of civilian structures.

The military's investigation concluded that "throughout the fighting in Gaza, the IDF operated in accordance with international law." The investigation found "a very small number of incidents in which intelligence or operational errors took place" that were "unavoidable and occur in all combat situations, in particular of the type which Hamas forced on the IDF, by choosing to fight from within the civilian population."

Human Rights Watch's investigation into the fighting in Gaza concluded that Israeli forces were responsible for serious violations of the laws of war, including the use of heavy artillery and white phosphorus munitions in densely populated areas, the apparent targeting of people trying to convey their civilian status, and the destruction of civilian objects in excess of military need. Some of the cases of white-phosphorus use demonstrate evidence of war crimes, Human Rights Watch said last month in a 71-page report.

The military's finding that "no phosphorus munitions were used on built-up areas" is blatantly wrong, Human Rights Watch said. Immediately after major fighting stopped, Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza found spent white phosphorous artillery shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets and apartment roofs, in residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school. Artillery shells containing white phosphorus also struck a hospital and the headquarters of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), both in central Gaza City.

Human Rights Watch has also found that Hamas committed serious violations of the laws of war by deliberately and indiscriminately firing Qassam and Grad rockets into civilian areas in Israel. Hamas has shown no inclination to investigate or prosecute alleged war crimes by Palestinian fighters, and its spokesmen continue to justify the unlawful rocket attacks that target Israeli civilians, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch said that the Israeli military's investigations were inadequate to determine whether and when Israeli forces violated the laws of war. Without access to Gaza, the military's investigators could not have adequately interviewed Palestinian victims and witnesses of the alleged violations.

In addition, the officers who headed the investigations, all colonels, were of insufficient rank to address abuses that resulted from policies set by senior commanders, Human Rights Watch said. In June 2006, after an explosion apparently caused by an IDF artillery shell killed seven members of a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach, the Israeli military appointed a major-general to lead the inquiry.

"Credible investigations need to be thorough, transparent, and run by a senior officer," said Stork. "These investigations are none of the above."

In its investigative conclusions, the Israeli military said that a "central operational IDF investigation" of the entire Gaza operation is ongoing, and "additional issues" are undergoing "a process of verification or investigation at various levels within the IDF."

The investigative results released today try to justify civilian deaths by saying that the military warned Gaza's population of impending attack. Human Rights Watch noted that warnings do not permit a force to conduct attacks that would otherwise be unlawful. Moreover, in the case of Gaza, the warnings were frequently too vague and therefore not "effective," as required by international law.

"If the IDF believes it did no wrong in Gaza, then Israel should cooperate fully with the Goldstone investigation," Stork said. "Both Israel and Hamas should welcome this investigation."

[bemildred]

15. Barak: Israel can and must make peace within three years

"I am certain it is possible and certainly necessary to act with all our might to achieve peace even before I turn 70, which will be in three years," said Defense Minister Ehud Barak in his first extensive interview since joining the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.

"You have to understand that in their consciousness, the leaders are not so far apart in terms of what the final settlement will look like," Barak said, adding that he believes Netanyahu will present the U.S. administration a diplomatic plan in line with the principle of "two states for two nations" during his upcoming visit to Washington.

"Bibi accepted the Oslo accords at the time. And it is clear that when a political settlement is signed with all the neighbors, it will stipulate a Palestinian state alongside the State of Israel, with the two living side by side. I believe that even now, during Netanyahu's visit to Washington, Israel should come up with a formula about how it intends to move ahead, and that formula will not propose three states for eight nations," he said. "Bibi has a hard choice to make: Does he want to be Shamir or Begin?" he asked. "There is deep understanding between us on the need to address the political issue, and that it is impossible to leave things in a state of paralysis. If we sink into paralysis, we may find the world losing interest in Israel and in this conflict - or, in an even worse scenario, acceptance by the world that the solution is not two states for two nations, but one state for two nations, which for us is a concrete risk, a slippery slope."

On Iran'a nuclear program, Barak struck a blustery yet pragmatic tone. "There is no one who will dare try to destroy Israel. We are not in a position of being able to tell the Americans whether to talk to the Iranians. I told American leaders: First learn from the professionals about what is going on in Iran, what they are doing behind the smoke screen, acquaint yourselves with the intelligence material, and from this you will understand they are working determinedly to deceive, confuse and blur things, and that under the headline of 'nuclear power for peaceful purposes,' they are trying to achieve military nuclear capability.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1081727.html

[rateyes]

16. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

No credibility.

[shira]

17. is IDF more moral than US military in Pakistan?

"I realize that they do damage to the Al Qaeda leadership," he told the House Armed Services Committee. But that, he said, was not enough to justify the program. "Since 2006, we've killed 14 senior Al Qaeda leaders using drone strikes; in the same time period, we've killed 700 Pakistani civilians in the same area. The drone strikes are highly unpopular. They are deeply aggravating to the population. And they've given rise to a feeling of anger that coalesces the population around the extremists and leads to spikes of extremism. ... The current path that we are on is leading us to loss of Pakistani government control over its own population."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-mcmanus3-2009may03,0,7133284.column

14 Al Qaeda leaders killed and 700 civilians for a civilian to combatant ratio of 50:1.

Noah Pollack (neo-con that he is) nails it:
"Where are the shrill denunciations of disproportionate force and extrajudicial killings? Where are the UN investigations? Where are the condemnations from Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the UN Human Rights Council? Where are the front-page New York Times exposes of American war crimes? Where are the indictments of U.S. officials by European judges? Why hasn’t Pat Buchanan compared the United States to the Nazis? Why hasn’t the Guardian compared Waziristan to a concentration camp? Where are the bloody front-page pictures of dead Pakistani children? Where are the sympathetic stories of lives ruined and communities destroyed because of the United States’ indiscriminate use of force? Why hasn’t Andrew Sullivan commenced a discourse on America’s violations of international law? Where is the hand-wringing from liberals about how our attacks are only perpetuating the cycle of violence and recruiting more terrorists? Why aren’t Zbigniew Brzezinski and Steve Clemons lecturing us that diplomacy is the only solution? Why isn’t anybody detailing the outrageously disproportionate force the Army is employing against a group of rural tribesmen armed only with RPG’s and rifles?"

So why is the Israeli left far more self-critical and vocal than the American left WRT damage done to innocent civilians?

For that matter, why is the international "peace camp" so silent WRT this show of force but yet so vocal against Israel - where in Gaza and Lebanon combined, the ratio of civilians killed to combatants was a combined 4:3 rather than a monstrous 50:1? Can we say double-standard? At least with a 4:3 kill ratio, the IDF can claim that Israeli civilians were under attack in both wars. What's the USA's excuse with the 50:1 ratio in which American civilians are at no risk whatsoever?

Apparently, getting all hysterical and bent out of shape WRT Israeli actions against Palestinians makes for better and more entertaining sport.

[shira]

18. US kills 147 more........so is US military more moral than IDF?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/08/AR2009050800924.html?wprss=rss_world/wires

Note that this is not to compare Israel to 3rd world militias, Russia, or China. I'm told that the IDF should behave more morally than those nations. So let's assume they do since it's "no big deal" that the IDF is better than the Saudi or Russian militaries.

How about a comparison to the US military based on these recent articles? Is the IDF better?

And after that, we can move onto the UK and France to see how Israel matches up to other major Western powers whose militaries have seen some action recently.

After that, we can honestly discuss why Israel's military deserves to be singled out internationally at least 10x more than any other runnerup. Maybe we can figure out together what truly motivates outsiders to single out the IDF and Israeli policies moreso than any other country (western or non-western countries).