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Human Rights Watch: Israel/Gaza: Israeli Military Investigation Not Credible

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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-23-09 11:13 PM
Original message
Human Rights Watch: Israel/Gaza: Israeli Military Investigation Not Credible


Israel and Hamas Should Cooperate With UN Investigation
April 23, 2009

link:

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/04/23/israelgaza-israeli-military-investigation-not-credible

" (Jerusalem) - The Israeli military's findings about the conduct of its forces in Gaza, announced on April 22, lack credibility and confirm the need for an impartial international inquiry into alleged violations by both Israel and Hamas, Human Rights Watch said today. Israel and Hamas should cooperate with Justice Richard Goldstone, the eminent international jurist appointed by the UN Human Rights Council to investigate serious laws-of-war violations during the recent conflict.

"The investigative results make clear that the Israeli military will not objectively monitor itself," said Joe Stork, deputy Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. "The conclusions are an apparent attempt to mask violations of the laws of war by Israeli forces in Gaza. Only an impartial inquiry will provide a measure of redress for the civilians who were killed unlawfully. "

After major hostilities ended in Gaza, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) created five teams headed by colonels to investigate the conduct of Israeli soldiers during "Operation Cast Lead," from December 27, 2008 to January 18, 2009. The teams examined attacks in which the military fired upon United Nations facilities, attacks on medical facilities and crews, claims of harm to civilians not involved in hostilities, the use of white phosphorous munitions, and the destruction of civilian structures.

The military's investigation concluded that "throughout the fighting in Gaza, the IDF operated in accordance with international law." The investigation found "a very small number of incidents in which intelligence or operational errors took place" that were "unavoidable and occur in all combat situations, in particular of the type which Hamas forced on the IDF, by choosing to fight from within the civilian population."

Human Rights Watch's investigation into the fighting in Gaza concluded that Israeli forces were responsible for serious violations of the laws of war, including the use of heavy artillery and white phosphorus munitions in densely populated areas, the apparent targeting of people trying to convey their civilian status, and the destruction of civilian objects in excess of military need. Some of the cases of white-phosphorus use demonstrate evidence of war crimes, Human Rights Watch said last month in a 71-page report.

The military's finding that "no phosphorus munitions were used on built-up areas" is blatantly wrong, Human Rights Watch said. Immediately after major fighting stopped, Human Rights Watch researchers in Gaza found spent white phosphorous artillery shells, canister liners, and dozens of burnt felt wedges containing white phosphorus on city streets and apartment roofs, in residential courtyards, and at a United Nations school. Artillery shells containing white phosphorus also struck a hospital and the headquarters of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestinian Refugees (UNRWA), both in central Gaza City.

Human Rights Watch has also found that Hamas committed serious violations of the laws of war by deliberately and indiscriminately firing Qassam and Grad rockets into civilian areas in Israel. Hamas has shown no inclination to investigate or prosecute alleged war crimes by Palestinian fighters, and its spokesmen continue to justify the unlawful rocket attacks that target Israeli civilians, Human Rights Watch said.

Human Rights Watch said that the Israeli military's investigations were inadequate to determine whether and when Israeli forces violated the laws of war. Without access to Gaza, the military's investigators could not have adequately interviewed Palestinian victims and witnesses of the alleged violations.

In addition, the officers who headed the investigations, all colonels, were of insufficient rank to address abuses that resulted from policies set by senior commanders, Human Rights Watch said. In June 2006, after an explosion apparently caused by an IDF artillery shell killed seven members of a Palestinian family on a Gaza beach, the Israeli military appointed a major-general to lead the inquiry.

"Credible investigations need to be thorough, transparent, and run by a senior officer," said Stork. "These investigations are none of the above."

In its investigative conclusions, the Israeli military said that a "central operational IDF investigation" of the entire Gaza operation is ongoing, and "additional issues" are undergoing "a process of verification or investigation at various levels within the IDF."

The investigative results released today try to justify civilian deaths by saying that the military warned Gaza's population of impending attack. Human Rights Watch noted that warnings do not permit a force to conduct attacks that would otherwise be unlawful. Moreover, in the case of Gaza, the warnings were frequently too vague and therefore not "effective," as required by international law.

"If the IDF believes it did no wrong in Gaza, then Israel should cooperate fully with the Goldstone investigation," Stork said. "Both Israel and Hamas should welcome this investigation."

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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. what's not credible is HRW not reporting vigorously on Hamas human shield activity
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 05:42 AM by shira
Who thinks HRW's reports against Israel are credible when HRW doesn't even report on Hamas human shields?

Also, when HRW calls Israel's responses "disproportionate", it is incumbent on HRW to define "proportionate" before condemning Israel for not complying. What's the point accusing Israel of a disproportionate response when there is no set definition of what a proportional response would look like?
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. What is not credible is your claiming HRW does not criticise Hamas.
http://yalibnan.com/site/archives/2009/04/hrw_hamas_shoul.php
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/03/16/eu-demand-accountability-gaza-conflict-laws-war-violations

And that's just from the last few weeks.

I know you'd prefer it if HRW did nothing but criticise Hamas and the Palestinians, and ignored Israel's human rights abuses, but for most of us the fact that they don't (unlike many groups) makes them more credible, not less.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Human Rights Watch puts out far more reports critical of Arab governments
then they do of Israel. I am grateful that they like Amnesty International and the International Committee of the Red Cross don't cut anyone slack when it comes to speaking out on human rights issues.

They are doing a great service for the people of the Arab world by exposing human rights abuses - just as they are doing a great service for the people of Israel and of the whole world.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
12.  HRW does not put much energy into Hamas human shield activity
Edited on Fri Apr-24-09 02:00 PM by shira
Here's a very recent IDF video, released just days ago, on Hamas human shield exploitation during OCL, which HRW is virtually ignoring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQa5-gmqys

The more that groups like HRW ignore this problem, the more that Palestinians will suffer as expendable pawns of Hamas. Hamas then feels as if it can do whatever it wants because no one (and Israel doesn't count) holds them accountable for what they do to their own Palestinian citizens.

Does it concern you that HRW doesn't think this rates very high on their priority list WRT the very recent OCL in Gaza?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Wow the CGI in that video was amazing
will it be coming out for PSP or X-box soon?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. you don't mind HRW practically ignoring Hamas use of Palestinian human shields, including kids?
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. It has been point6ed out to you several times that
neither HRW or AI or the UN for that matter ignore Hamas abuses, it is just you want Israeli abuses ignored because you seem to have taken on the "cowboys and indians" philosophy of this conflict and no amount od criticism where Hamas is concerned will ever be enough-for you
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. right......Hamas and Hizbullah human shield exploitation has for some time been dealt with
Edited on Sat Apr-25-09 11:56 AM by shira
...sufficiently by HRW, AI, the UN, etc.

Tell me, do you REALLY believe that, as someone who is "proPalestinian" and would rather not see Palestinian children deliberately used as shields or combatants in war?

The few cases of IDF human shield usage has merited probably less than 1 in 1000 the amount of international focus that Hamas/Hizbullah human shield exploitation has merited. No one pro-Palestinian who cares for children can possibly be happy about that.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #19
32. I see Palestinian children deliberately being
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 12:14 PM by azurnoir
denied clean water, food, shelter, medical care you name it and that is at the moment for me a far more pressing concern than "exonerating" the IDF but we all have our priorities


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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
3. Amnesty International: Israeli army probe lacks credibility and is no substitute for independent
investigation.



Israel/Occupied Palestinian Territories: Israeli army probe lacks credibility and is no substitute for independent investigation


23 April 2009

link:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/israeloccupied-palestinian-territories-israeli-army-probe-lacks-credibil

The Israeli army should make public the full details of the findings of its probe into some of its attacks during the 22-day Gaza military offensive, Amnesty International said today in reaction to the army’s conclusion that its forces had committed no violations and only rare mistakes, some of which may have resulted in the killing of Palestinian civilians.

A briefing paper distributed by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) to journalists yesterday, which states that “All findings are to be used as background information to be attributed to the reporter only”, lacks crucial details. It mostly repeatsf claims made by the army and the authorities many times since the early days of Operation Cast Lead, but without providing the necessary evidence to back up the allegations. Amnesty International sets out below its initial reactions to the limited number of specific incidents addressed in the army’s briefing paper.

There is a strikingly large gap between the “very small number” of mistakes referred to in the IDF’s briefing paper and the killing by Israeli forces of some 300 Palestinian children and hundreds of other unarmed civilians. The army briefing does not even attempt to explain the overwhelming majority of civilian deaths nor the massive destruction caused to civilian buildings in Gaza.

In the absence of the necessary evidence to substantiate its allegations, the army’s claims appear to be more an attempt to shirk its responsibilities than a genuine process to establish the truth. Such an approach lacks credibility.

Ultimately, it is up to those who carried out bombardments and artillery and other attacks to provide evidence that their strikes were indeed against legitimate military targets – not for the victims to prove that they were not involved in combat activities. The information provided by the army so far fails to do so.

The deaths and injury of many civilians and the large-scale destruction in attacks which often violated international humanitarian law demand a full, independent and impartial investigation. The Israeli army must provide specific, detailed information about why targets were chosen and the means and methods of attack used in order to assess their conclusion that the IDF complied fully with international humanitarian law. The information provided in this briefing is insufficient and, in parts, contradicts evidence gathered by Amnesty International and others.

Since the beginning of February Amnesty International has repeatedly asked to meet the Israeli army to discuss concerns about violations of international humanitarian law during Operation Cast Lead, and has also submitted a detailed list of cases and issues about which it has requested information. To date the IDF has not responded to the organization’s requests.

The Israeli army’s probe is no substitute for a thorough, independent and impartial investigation. Amnesty International therefore calls on the Israeli authorities to reconsider their refusal to cooperate with the fact-finding mission set up by the UN Human Rights Council and headed by Judge Richard Goldstone, who has made clear its intention to investigate violations of international law by all parties to the conflict in Gaza and southern Israel.

The organization also renews its call on the UN Security Council to set up an independent international investigation into alleged war crimes and other violations of international law by all parties.

Amnesty International’s initial reactions to specific incidents mentioned in the briefing paper distributed by the Israeli army

Regarding the incident which occurred near the UNRWA school (Fakhoura School) in Jabalia on 6 January 2009, the army briefing states that “the soldiers responded with minimal and proportionate retaliatory fire, using the most precise weapon available to them”. The reality is that the soldiers fired at least four mortars into a crowded street. Mortars are area weapons, which cannot be directed at a specific target and have a wide margin of error. The use of such a notoriously imprecise weapon in a crowded civilian area was virtually certain to cause civilian deaths and injury and it should have never been used. While the army contends that that a total of 12 people - five combatants and seven civilians – died in these strikes, in fact some 30 people, mostly civilians, were killed.

Regarding the use of white phosphorus and artillery strikes on the UNRWA Headquarters in the centre of Gaza City on 15 January 2009, the army claims that “it appears that fragments of the smoke projectiles hit a warehouse located in the headquarters”. In reality it was not only fragments which hit the UNRWA compound. Amnesty International researchers saw several white phosphorus artillery shells which had landed and exploded inside the compound, together with at least one high explosive artillery shell. Amnesty International has no reason to doubt the army’s assurances that it did not target the UNRWA compound, as artillery is too imprecise to be used for pinpoint targeting. The issue at stake is the unlawful use of a weapon as imprecise as artillery, and moreover, artillery carrying a substance as dangerous as white phosphorus, in the middle of very densely populated residential areas.

The army’s contention that “these results could not be predicted” lacks any credibility, as the army knows full well the difference between precision weapons and area weapons. Artillery is an area – not a precision – weapon.

This section of the briefing also mentions the “Red Cross Pharmaceutical Storage facility” in Tal al-Hawa district of Gaza City (which actually belonged to the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, PRCS, and not to the Red Cross), but does not specify what munitions were fired by Israeli forces. The reality is that the facility was completely burned down, seemingly as a result of being struck by white phosphorus.

The briefing does not mention that white phosphorus shells also landed on the nearby PRCS al-Quds hospital compound on 15 January 2009, causing extensive fire and forcing the hospital to be evacuated. There too Amnesty International researchers found material evidence of the use of such weapons: a white phosphorus carrier artillery shell and remains of burned-out white phosphorus lumps.

Regarding the use of white phosphorus in densely populated residential areas, the army’s assertions that “no phosphorus munitions were used on built-up areas” and that the “pieces of felt dipped in phosphorus… are not incendiary” could not be further from the truth. Amnesty International researchers on the ground found hundreds of white phosphorus-impregnated felt wedges in residential areas all over Gaza, still smouldering weeks after they had been fired. They similarly found dozens of artillery shells which had delivered the white phosphorus all over Gaza. As well, there is ample photographic and TV footage of white phosphorus artillery shells fired in airburst mode exploding over densely populated residential areas and white phosphorus literally raining down over these areas.

The Israeli army is fully aware of the dangers of white phosphorus for human beings. Documents written during Operation Cast Lead by the office of the Israeli army Chief Medical Officer and Medical Field Operations headquarters highlight some of the effects. A document signed by Colonel Dr Gil Hirschorn, head of trauma in the office of the army’s Chief Medical Officer, states: “When the phosphorus comes in contact with living tissue it causes its damage by ‘eating’ away at it. Characteristics of a phosphorus wound are: chemical burns accompanied by extreme pain, damage to tissue... the phosphorus may seep into the body and damage internal organs. In the long run, kidney failure and the spread of infection are characteristic... In conclusion: a wound by an ordnance containing explosive phosphorus is inherently dangerous and has the potential to cause serious damage to tissue.” (1)

Another document entitled “Exposure to White Phosphorus”, prepared by Medical Field Operations headquarters and sent from the Health Ministry, notes that “most of the data on phosphorus wounds stems from animal testing and accidents. Exposure to white phosphorus is highly poisonous, according to many lab experiments. Burns covering a small area of the body, 12-15 percent in lab animals and less than 10 percent in humans, may be lethal as a result of its effects, mostly on the liver, heart and kidneys.” (2)

Concerning “incidents involving shooting at medical facilities, buildings, vehicles and crews", the army briefing contends that “Hamas systematically used medical facilities, vehicles and uniforms as cover for terrorist operations” but provides no evidence for even one such case. Amnesty International does not exclude the possibility that such cases may have occurred, but found no evidence during its on-the-ground investigation that such practices, if they did occur, were widespread. Crucially, the army failed to provide any information or explanation of several well-documented cases of ambulance medics and paramedics killed and injured by IDF fire – including by precision air strikes and in one case in a tank strike with a flechette round. As well, no explanation was given for the many cases where Israeli soldiers deliberately blocked medical care to the wounded.

The section of the army briefing concerning “incidents in which many uninvolved civilians were harmed” is strikingly poor in details. It mentions a mere four cases, which resulted in the death of some 50 unarmed civilians, while remaining silent on the killings of hundreds of other unarmed civilians, including some 300 children.

In the case of the tank strikes on the home of Dr Abu al-‘Eish in Jabalia (north Gaza) on 17 January 2009, the army contends that “IDF forces identified suspicious figures on the third floor of the building, raising suspicions that the figures were observing IDF forces in order to direct sniper fire from another building” and that “the regional commander took a series of measures to ensure that the suspicious figures were gunmen”, and contends that “four women who were in the same house as the spotters were hit”. The four women were three of Dr Abu al-‘Eish’s daughters and one niece – three of them children and one of them aged 21. Crucially the army provides no evidence whatsoever to substantiate its allegation that any gunmen or spotters were in Dr Abu al-‘Eish’s house, nor does it provide any evidence to substantiate its claim that it had “urged Dr Abu al-‘Eish to leave his house”.

In the case of a missile strike on a truck carrying oxygen canisters on 29 December 2008, the army acknowledges that its assumption that the truck had been carrying Grad missiles was mistaken, but claims that “the strike killed four Hamas operatives”, as well as four uninvolved civilians, and “that the oxygen tanks being carried in the truck were likely to be used by Hamas for rocket manufacturing”. However, it provides no evidence that the four were in fact Hamas combatants nor any evidence to substantiate its allegation about the likely use of the oxygen canisters.

Similarly, in the case of a missile strike inside an UNRWA school in al-Shati’ (Beach) Refugee Camp on the night between 5 and 6 January 2009, which killed three young men by the school’s toilet, the army alleges that the strike was launched “following specific intelligence and relying on suspicion that led to the conclusion that they were participating in terrorist operations”. However, the army provides no evidence or information to substantiate its allegations nor any information about the measures taken to verify the suspicions on which it says the attack relied.

Finally, the section of the army briefing about the damage to infrastructure and destruction of buildings by ground forces contains only general statements and does not identify even the one incident which it says was investigated. The army provides no evidence to substantiate its assertion that “overall the extent of damage caused to buildings was a direct result of the extensive use by Hamas of those same buildings for terrorist purposes and targeting IDF forces”. Amnesty International does not dispute that some of the destroyed buildings may have contained weapons or explosives or may have been booby-trapped by Palestinian armed groups. However, such cases and the targeting of legitimate military targets and incidental damage resulting from such attacks or from armed confrontations only accounts for a small percentage of the large-scale destruction.

The only evidence of explosives found by Amnesty International researchers in destroyed properties were the remains of Israeli mines, clearly identified as being Israeli from the Hebrew writing and markings. In addition, Israeli soldiers at times destroyed and frequently vandalized the houses they had taken over and used as military positions. They defaced the walls with insulting or threatening graffiti, deliberately smashed and soiled furniture and possessions and often left excrement all over the houses when they left – along with other evidence of their stay, such as ammunition boxes, spent munitions, food rations, army medical kits and other supplies, the army magazine Bmakhane and Hebrew prayer leaflets.

(1) Extract of Hebrew-language document obtained and translated into English by Amnesty International.

(2) Extract of Hebrew-language document obtained and translated into English by Amnesty International


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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
5. "The criminal himself cannot be the judge."
Israel killed more than 1,300 Palestinians during the Gaza attack, most of them women and children. It bombed crowded civilian areas, ambulances, aid compounds, UN facilities, mosques and several schools. Hamas spokesperson Ayman Taha dismissed the Israeli investigation as a sham.

Ayman Taha: “This is a mockery of all the crimes that have been committed against our people. And the reason that the Israeli army cannot consider what has happened in the Gaza Strip as criminal is because the criminal himself cannot also be the judge. Therefore, these findings of Israeli army innocence are unreliable. The crimes that have been committed are crystal clear.”

The Israeli probe comes ahead of a UN investigation headed by former international prosecutor Richard Goldstone. Bill Van Esveld of Human Rights Watch called the IDF move a preliminary reaction to the UN’s anticipated findings.

Bill Van Esveld: “This appears to be a whitewash investigation that is happening just before the Goldstone investigation mandated by the United Nations. And it seems to prove the point that Human Rights Watch has been making all along, which is that there needs to be an independent and impartial United Nations investigation into these allegations of laws of war violations, because the IDF has not lived up to the job.”

http://www.democracynow.org/2009/4/23/headlines
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Dick Dastardly Donating Member (741 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 02:58 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. He is talking about himself since he is a member of the Hamas terrorist group and hence a criminal
Anyone putting the statements and claims of a Hamas terrorist as some kind of truth pretty much puts the credibility of anything they say into question.

Its guilty until proven innocent views like this is why Israel would be certified morons to agree to any third party investigation.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
6. link to Human Rights Watch Video: Rain of Fire: White Phosphorus in Gaza

I hope EVERYONE watches this film, downloads it and passes it on to EVERYONE on their address book!!

The most powerful and moving 6-minute film I have ever seen!!

Please do this NOW!!


Rain of Fire: Israel's Unlawful Use of White Phosphorous in Gaza

link:

http://www.hrw.org/features/rain-fire-white-phosphorus-gaza

link on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRuzEs9Y5KE



link to 71-page Human Rights Watch Report on the use of White Phosphorus in the Gaza:


http://www.hrw.org/node/81760



.
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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. OMG Douglas, I honestly don't know what to say.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-28-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #7
33. disturbing isn't it
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Purposeful targetting of schools, UN facilities, hospitals. Utterly unconsionable, inexcusable,
immoral.

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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. “We found out that the IDF operated under the international law and according to a very high
of professionalism and moral standards..." General Dan Harel

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=124&topic_id=272762&mesg_id=272795

Is it possible to believe anything this jackass says from hereafter?

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Jefferson23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. No different than Cheney, same level of crediblity.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-24-09 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. Thankyou n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
15. If the IDF are so sure they've done nothing wrong, they should cooperate with Goldstone n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. what's stopping Goldstone and company from fully investigating Hamas right now?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Nothing that I'm aware of, but this thread is about the IDF...
Which is why my post was about the IDF. You appear to have a strong desire to change the subject away from the IDF. Feel free to do so somewhere else, and don't waste my time replying to my posts with irrelevent shit that's got nothing to do with what I said...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 04:42 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. I thought it was about the loss of human life, like children, which Hamas exploits and places in
combat roles. You know, stuff like that, which "good" people on the UN commission may want to investigate regardless of whether the IDF complies or not.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. You thought wrong. This thread's about the IDF's 'investigation' of itself n/t
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 06:29 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. and the IDF found in its own investigations that Hamas used children in combat roles
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 07:13 AM by shira
The exploitation of children by Hamas in combat situations should be as much a focus by any independent third party commission as Israeli WP usage. But it's not. It's given short shrift and we all know this.

How can anyone respect an "independent" third party commission that practically turns the other way at Hamas exploitation of Palestinian children - thereby giving Hamas a green light to keep it up and continue to use children in combat roles in future I/P conflict?

The commission is a joke and we all know this investigation into Israel is nothing but a witch hunt.

Clean up the UNHRC first. Allow them do their job properly and prove to be an impartial organization committed to human rights everywhere, for everyone, and against all violators (they don't even do a proper job with Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, etc). Once the UNHRC starts doing its job properly, Israel should have no problem with them. Until then, the hypocritical bigots in the UNHRC can fuck off. Maybe it's time the UNHRC started really doing its job all around the world so that their efforts in I/P would appear to be legitimate.

Let's also not assume that there exists no internal debates on WP and other issues within Israel. Israelis realize that from both a legal and moral standpoint, they must address humanitarian issues knowing that there will be future upcoming conflicts. The public which serves in the IDF must be assured that the country is trying to do its best to protect those who deserve protection. Israel is a very self-critical society that will not abide by IDF whitewashing.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Feel free to start a thread about it, but this thread's about the IDF investigating itself...
If you haven't got anything to say about the subject of the thread, then there seems little point to you going off on multiple tangents about other stuff. Not unless you like talking to yrself, that is...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. you brought up Goldstone....I responded to that
Also, do you disagree with the following, WRT an IDF investigation of itself:

"Let's also not assume that there exists no internal debates on WP and other issues within Israel. Israelis realize that from both a legal and moral standpoint, they must address humanitarian issues knowing that there will be future upcoming conflicts. The public which serves in the IDF must be assured that the country is trying to do its best to protect those who deserve protection. Israel is a very self-critical society that will not abide by IDF whitewashing. "
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Wrong, You didn't talk about Goldstone at all...
Just hopped on board the same Hamas uses human shields!!! hobby horse you flood countless threads with and went flying off from there. Should I just jump off here and let you continue to talk amongst yrself like you usually do?
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Goldstone's commission was appointed by the UNHRC, remember?
Or does that have nothing to do with the discussion according to your narrow POV?

And what about Israelis' own internal discussions about the IDF? I mentioned that twice. You think the Israeli public, which serves in the IDF and will serve in future conflicts, will abide by an IDF "whitewashing" of humanitarian crimes?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. And Goldstone is carrying out the investigation...
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 08:11 AM by Violet_Crumble
It's not rocket science, and I'm so sorry my 'narrow POV' doesn't extend to thinking that going on about Hamas and human shields like you did has got anything at all to do with the topic of the thread...

Seeing as how you don't seem to be all that quick on the uptake when it comes to the bleeding obvious, I don't waste my time answering questions put to me by someone who's called me a liar in another thread, something which you've done several times now. I hope you can comprehend that, as I'm expecting to come back to find another post full of question marks that I can't be bothered reading, let alone answering...
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. so since you won't answer questions, don't ask any
Edited on Sun Apr-26-09 08:15 AM by shira
take your inquisition somewhere else and don't pretend you're interested in serious discussions about the IDF's internal investigations (or the Israeli public's perception of such investigations).
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-26-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. I didn't ask any questions....you might want to back up and read my original post in this subthread.
Inquisition? WTF? I didn't even ask you any questions, and you were the one that replied to my post first, not the other way round. And stop pretending that what I said was aimed at anyone else but you. It appears yr having some difficulty comprehending this, so I'll make it very clear. There's no lack of interest on my part in serious discussion of many issues that appear in this forum. There's more than a few folk who I'm more than happy to engage in that sort of discussion with, but unlike you, they're rational sort of folk who actually read and comment on what they're replying to, and don't run round calling me or others liars the way you do...
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-25-09 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
17. B’Tselem’s response to the Israeli Military’s investigations of operation “Cast Lead”
<snip>

"On the 22.4.08, the Israeli Military made public the conclusions of five internal investigations held by teams headed by officers, who "were not a direct part of the chain of command, and who were appointed by the chief of staff to investigate several issues in regards to which questions were raised during the fighting." The military did not publish the investigations themselves .

The chief conclusion of the investigations is that "the IDF acted in accordance with the principles of international law, while keeping a high professional and moral standard; all of this, against an enemy that was deliberately engaging in terror activities against Israeli civilians." However, "the investigations shed light on a very small number of mistakes and incidents in which intelligence or operational mistakes occurred during the fighting."

However, the IDF spokesperson is quick to qualify the military’s responsibility for these cases. Thus, it determines in its statement, “the fighting in Gaza took place in a complex battlefield against an enemy who chose, as a conscious part of its doctrine, to position itself in the midst of the civilian population, booby trapping their houses with explosives, firing from schools attended by their own children and even using their own people as human shields."

These are only some of the issues investigated by the military, and the IDF spokesperson stated that a central operational investigation is still being conducted, and is expected to be finalized in two months. However, even at this stage it is possible to point out several central problems in the way the military investigates the suspicions of violations of international humanitarian law (IHL) during operation "Cast Lead."

more
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