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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 06:04 AM
Original message
Israel's war on Gaza killed 252 children, report claims


Israeli human rights agency challenges army's figures

By Donald Macintyre in Jerusalem


The Israeli official figures seriously underestimated the civilian Palestinian death toll exacted during its onslaught in Gaza early this year, according to painstaking research to be published today.

The first detailed casualty figures from an Israeli human rights organisation since the war ended puts the number of children under 16 killed in the offensive at 252 as opposed to the 89 cited by the military. B'Tselem says its fieldworkers gathered death certificates, photos, and testimonies relating to all 252 of the children.

B'Tselem, which said it had carried out "months of meticulous investigation and cross-checks with numerous sources" has, unlike the Israel Defence Forces (IDF), made public the names of all those it said were killed in the war. It said that since the IDF had refused to furnish the agency with its own detailed list, it was impossible to compare the names but that "the blatant discrepancy between the numbers is intolerable."

The new figures came as it emerged that the Israel Defence Forces have opened a criminal investigation into allegations by Khaled Abed Rabbo and his mother Suad that three of his daughters were shot – two fatally – as the family, carrying a white flag, walked from their house in eastern Jabalya on January 7, early in the military's ground offensive.

read on...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israels-war-on-gaza-killed-252-children-report-claims-1783877.html



So... when we're debating this war, can we all at least agree that over 250 children were murdered?
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 07:08 AM
Response to Original message
1. just a note on hamas stupidity.....
the concept of "no rockets on israel" no attacks on gaza has finally sunk in........(for those who doubted it, the proof is the post gaza war)

after 3 years of 6,000+ missiles and the return fire from israel that included helicopter strikes, mini incursions, assassinations, limited artillery fire, limited tank fire, closing the borders all of which did not stop the kassams.....it took a full blown invasion, destruction of a few neighborhoods and buildings, killing of 1600+ Palestinians

and the kassams have stopped.

_______

cause and affect....its a shame hamas didn't figure it out earlier. Of course it means that their liberation war is "on hold"...
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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Obviously you've never heard of the Geneva Convention
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 04:17 PM by FarrenH
Or disagree with it. Most of us don't. Regardless of what arguments you make, deliberate or even easily avoidable slaughter of innocents is considered a war crime. And yes, Hamas rocket attacks on Israeli civilians are war crimes too. But that does not justify much war crimes that are far greater in magnitude.

Unless you're a psychopath.
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thanks for the note on Israeli depravity. nt
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. no problem....
Edited on Thu Sep-10-09 12:25 AM by pelsar
i think we should forget this whole idea of "the most moral army in the world" stuff. Lets assume (as you believe) that israel is in fact a depraved, violent, values less society (army) and deal with that as the reality.

Lets assume that if one shoots at israel a mortar or kassam, that israel will infact overreact and perhaps blow up some buildings in Gaza, wipeout a nursery or two. (russian style)

At least then we'll be clearer as to what are the expectations, and it will be easier to work out a settlement. Presently what israel will or won't do is very confusing...its makes for too much confusion.

the basic illusion being that the various groups can attack and terrorize israel, and israel can only react in limited and a confusing fashion......
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ProgressiveMuslim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Pelsar. My relatives literally bear scars from torture by your co-countrymen.
Edited on Thu Sep-10-09 05:51 AM by ProgressiveMuslim
The Israeli occupation as implemented by the IDF and Shin Bet isn't army as usual. And FWIW, these scars were inflicted long before any suicide bombs went off.

It is depraved to rape a 14 year old boy. It is depraved to extinguish your cigarette on the neck of a bound man for fun. Period. Always.

I also believe it is depraved to shoot live ammo at a kid throwing a rock at you.

Of course I don't believe the IDF is the most moral army in the world. I'm not holding it to a higher standard.


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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. and so do mine....
scars from your "tribe"......long before the suicide bombers started.

and its depraved to go in to a house and shoot the kids, celebrate blowing up buses etc etc etc etc etc....

____

I'm afraid we're not going to get very far comparing who do what to who and how many times.....there is no real "computer" model to define who is "more of a victim"......each will believe what they prefer.

And yes the israeli occupation is certainly a "one of a kind"....just depends upon which occupation you would like to compare it too......you'll find much worse and more benign...choose the model you prefer for comparison.
_____

your know going to get much out of me, when it comes to the evilness of the occupation or many individuals within the IDF, Shinbet etc....for every example you give, i can easily toss back ten that the hamas, etc have done. I have some very real experience with what the IDF tries to to, prefers to do.. sometimes things work (mostly) and sometimes they don't, sometimes its the individuals who screw it up, sometimes its a dumb idea......

You believe with all your heart that liberation is the end all and whatever it takes, i get that, and to that end everything that israel does, that isn't enough, will be translated into something evil.......but its that evilness that keeps the rockets away, which i see as the greater evil.

I don't see liberation as the end......i see a working democracy as the end.....and a "liberation" as in gaza, can make that liberation into a nightmare for everyone.
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. war crimes? when the ratio of combatants killed to civilians killed is 1:1?
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 06:18 PM by shira
if that's what constitutes war crimes, then how do you describe NATO or any other western nation that has done worse than Israel (and that would be all western nations - perhaps all nations in the history of warfare). Every other nation is worse. But Israel commits war crimes?

Are you serious?

note that B'tselem counts close to 700 (of 1400) as non-civilians (combatants) and that's under their F'd up definition which states that if a Gazan fires a rocket at Israel, runs off to hide, but is then killed in a crowd - presumably unarmed - that guy counts as a civilian. Consider that Hamas claims 20,000 in their army out of a population of 1.5 million and that women to men are 50/50, children make up a rather large percentage, etc....and compare to the actual numbers (percentages) of those killed. It takes a hell of a lot of nerve to argue that Israel committed war crimes.

Compare to the USA and UK effort in Afghanistan and Pakistan and the ratio of civilians/combatants there (check out casualties due to drones alone).

There is no comparison - because that's considered a just war whereas none of Israel's wars are considered just. Jews aren't supposed to defend themselves - they should just take it. Even though the wars they wage are fought more justly than any other nation.

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FarrenH Donating Member (485 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-09-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. In 2007, the civilian to combatant casualty ratio in Afghanistan
Edited on Wed Sep-09-09 10:20 PM by FarrenH
was around 1:2, with an estimated 30% attributed to NATO forces, meaning that the ratio for coalition forces was 3:20 (since a vanishingly small number of insurgent kills were actually NATO forces)<1>. And the chief prosecutor at the ICC has announced he is investigating possible war crimes by NATO and insurgent forces<2>. Insufficiently discriminate bombing and drone use has been widely criticised, by many of the same people who criticise Israel.

So not only does your comparison lose one leg and fall over on factual numerical accuracy, but your willful delusion that the standards Israel is being judged by are not applied elsewhere are shown to be just that. Delusion. Other western nations often draw accusations of war crimes for far less. And the nations you're comparing Israel to, from the record, kill far less civilians in their military campaigns.

<1> Civilian casualties of the War in Afghanistan_

<2> http://www.reuters.com/article/gc05/idUSTRE58871K20090909
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. why just 2007? did you read the rest of that wiki article? i also mentioned drone strikes...
Edited on Thu Sep-10-09 06:24 AM by shira
...in Pakistan. Here's one example:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/carne-ross/us-drone-strikes-and-civi_b_203968.html

"They have an undeniable benefit, because we have disrupted AQ operations and damaged AQ cells in Pakistan. But they have a negative strategic effect in that they incite Punjabi militancy, which is the biggest problem in Pakistani right now." Mr Kilcullen said the hit rate on drone attacks was "unacceptably low". He said the US had killed 14 mid-level or lower level al-Qaeda leaders since 2006 but the strikes had killed 700 civilians. "That's a hit rate of two per cent on 98 per cent collateral. It's not moral."

That quote was from 4 months ago. Where are all the cries of war crimes?

There are also comparisons between Israel and NATO coalition forces:
http://www.isracast.com/article.aspx?id=1072

And one Colonel Kemp from the UK:
http://zionism-israel.com/issues/Israel_human_rights_kemp_gaza.htm

Kemp was commander of the British forces in Afghanistan - but maybe you believe since then, he's a paid off zionist shill? :eyes:
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-10-09 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. morality vs morality.....
i didn't know you have 'god like qualities" to be know which morality is the greater one?

6,000 rockets over 3 years, with no end in sight terrorizing over 100,000 people on a daily basis....controlled by the hamas govt vs endless and varied attempts at stopping it for over 3 years that failed by israel.... except for the war- which did.

but since you mentioned it...

even easily avoidable slaughter of innocents

perhaps instead of some general comment, have the gumption to be specific (if you can back up the assertion).





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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
10. How many civilians were killed in Gaza - Ben Dror Yemini
http://middle-east-analysis.blogspot.com/2009/07/how-many-civilians-were-killed-in-gaza.html

How many civilians were killed in Gaza?


Ben-Dror Yemini

Maariv 20.07.09

Every week new reports are published on the number of civilians killed in the Gaza Strip during Operation Cast Lead. Again and again, Israel is blamed for "disproportionate casualties among civilians." Here and there, claims of "war crimes" are raised. It must be said that, first, any civilian death is deplorable and everything possible must be done to prevent such deaths. Second, any reasonable allegation must be investigated. There is not an army in the world that has not made mistakes, and the IDF is no exception. But apparently there are many entities that are enamored of lies. Hamas claimed from the start that only a small number of those killed in Gaza were fighters. Many human rights organizations adopted the claims made by Hamas and other Palestinian organizations. So the time has come, if truth has any meaning whatsoever, to present the real story.


Abdullah Abdel Hamid Muammar, a 22-year-old student from the village of el-Nassar north of Rafah, was killed in Operation Cast Lead. So we are told by the official report of the Palestinian Centre for Human Rights (PCHR). This report contains details about the war casualties that purport to be accurate. The purpose is obvious: to prove to the whole world that most of the casualties were innocent civilians who were hurt by the bombing of the civilian population.

Many human rights organizations, including Amnesty, B'Tselem and Human Rights Watch (HRW), relied, in whole or in part, on the PCHR data, which turned Muammar into an innocent victim. But there's a problem with that. According to a publication issued by the Press Department of the Al Qassam Brigades, Muamar was a member of Hamas, and he appears in a picture on an Arabic website in which he is carrying a Qassam missile. This is also the case with many other "innocent civilians." They were terrorists. It turns out that, to discover that lie - which was just one of many - meticulous investigations were required. Dr. Tal Pavel of the Interdisciplinary Center, Herzliya, and Jonathan Dahoah-Halevy, a researcher at the Jerusalem Center, investigated each name on the list of casualties.


The various organizations announced that between 1,200 and 1,400 were killed in Gaza. The number may have been inflated, as claimed, for example, by journalist Lorenzo Cremonesi, reporting from the Gaza Strip for the Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera about inflation of the numbers and the manipulations by Hamas. We should also mention the investigation conducted by the IDF which appears to be a bit more reliable and puts the number of killed at 1164, as well as the fact that Hamas issued explicit instructions to conceal and deceive.


According to Pavel's research, 564 of the dead were members of Hamas. All of them were honored, as fallen fighters, on Hamas websites. In addition to them, according to IDF investigations, about 100 Islamic Jihad members were killed. Assuming that other terrorists were killed, for example those belonging to Fatah, then most of the dead were not innocent civilians. And that's just the beginning.


The bombing of the Hamas Police Academy earned wall-to-wall condemnation because, according to international law, police are considered civilians. Here we will go into the results of the research conducted by Dahoah-Halevy. According to a name-based investigation of each of the "policemen", it turns out that 88.4% of them belong to the security - i.e., terrorism - mechanisms of Hamas. One of them, Muhammad el-Dasuqi, a member of the Resistance Committee, is suspected of being one of the perpetrators of the terrorist attack on the American convoy in 2003.


One of the most prominent events in the Gaza operation was the bombing of the UN school in the Jabalya refugee camp on January 6. All the media around the world publicized horrific pictures of "over 41 killed in the Al Fakhura school." The condemnation was worldwide, from the UN Secretary General, through the President of the United States, to the Prime Minister of Great Britain.


Many long weeks passed before it was shown to be a libel. First, the three artillery shells did not hit the school at all. Second, Hamas people were firing from the area and the IDF aimed its fire at them. Third, the number of killed was far smaller than originally reported. Most of the media and human rights organizations that publicized the original news did not bother to publicize the information that was disclosed. Those who are infatuated with libel are not prepared to be confused by the facts.


There were still many killed who are not identified as fighters. That is also worth investigating. If the IDF strike lacked discernment, the demographic breakdown of the casualties (erroneously called "uninvolved civilians") should have been identical to the demographic breakdown of the general population. However, a different picture emerges. A quarter of the population are adolescent girls. Actually, 8% of those killed were adolescent girls. A quarter of the population are adult women. Only 14% of those killed were women. The higher percentage of male casualties – much higher than their proportion of the population – proves that among them were a higher percentage of men involved in the fighting. In other words, the percentage of civilian casualties was dramatically smaller than the claims made against Israel. According to a more in-depth investigation by a team of researchers from the Interdisciplinary Center, between 900 and 1,070 of the casualties (63% - 75%) were killed because they were involved. If we add to that the fact that Hamas used civilians as human shields, or adolescent boys who were forced to participate in the fighting, the percentage of the casualties who were involved in the fighting only increases.


It is interesting to note the behavior of the armies of western countries when they had to conduct a similar war. Let's assume that there is no comparison with the World War II Allied bombing of Tokyo and Dresden. We'll deal with something more similar and closer in time. In 1999, NATO forces conducted a similar war, mainly by aerial bombing, against Yugoslavia (Operation Allied Force). 462 soldiers, 114 policemen and 489-512 civilians were killed.


Because there, the policemen were actually policemen, and in Gaza they are terrorists, the general balance shows that Israel hurt far fewer civilians than NATO did. And with regard to the demographic breakdown and the forced use of adolescent boys and civilians, the number of innocent casualties is apparently far lower.


The Israeli media, which publicized the stories of soldiers from the pre-military preparatory course - which turned out to be rumors and outright fabrications - did not publish the results of the serious investigations below. On the contrary. An editorial by Ha'aretz stated that it involved the "criminal killing of dozens of policemen…knowing that these policemen were nothing but enforcers of civilian order." Hamas is snickering. They publicize pictures of the "policemen" armed with Qassams, and Ha'aretz calls them "enforcers of civil order." The West reads Ha'aretz in English, not Hamas in Arabic. So sometimes, when Ha'aretz is around, Hamas does not need a propaganda department.


Even when this research was available, no one bothered to make corrections. On the contrary. The hara-kiri continues. The media, in Israel and around the world, are tainted with a peculiar selectivity. Any serious research that proves that there were no war crimes is rejected. Any fabrication that doesn't have a shred of basis in fact rates enormous headlines. That is what happened with the bombing of the Al Fakhura school in Jabalya, and in other cases as well.


Prof. Arnold Toynbee, who was no friend of Israel, wrote in one of his books, "In the history of man's endeavors to develop culture, there has never been a society whose progress and cultural level were so advanced that in time of revolution or war, its members could be depended upon not to commit evil acts." That is true of Israel and it is true of every country that finds itself in a state of war. So I will reiterate that every deviation should be investigated. But by the same token, there is no need to hide the true picture: with regard to the fact that Gaza is controlled by an entity whose way is terrorism, whose platform is anti-Semitic, and whose official objective is the destruction of the State of Israel, the number of innocent casualties in the course of the operation was far smaller than the stories fabricated by Palestinian organizations, human rights organizations and newspapers in Israel and around the world, such as Ha'aretz, which feeds many news agencies worldwide. We can, and should, publicize serious claims of deviations. But we also can, and should, at least to the same extent, present the serious research.


Ben-Dror Yemini is a researcher and a columnist in Maariv, daily newspaper

(bdyemini@gmail.com)
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shira Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 05:14 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. very detailed 36 page study - Hamas Casualties from "Operation Cast Lead”
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Countdown_3_2_1 Donating Member (778 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 11:23 AM
Response to Original message
13. Darwinian lesson to be learned: "Don't attack a superior enemy,"
Israel has a military superior to anything Palestine can muster.
Its a proven fact that for every rocket launched into Israel, the response will be far greater than the attack.

I don't see the reason's for Palestinian complaints.
Palestinians KNOW what the reaction will be but act surprised every time it happens.

Bottom line:
Palestine earns its casualties, by provoking a superior foe.

Conclusion:
Stop doing the same thing over and over again, and expect a different result.

Lesson to be learned:
Stop fighting Israel. Declare statehood. Devote time to your economy, create jobs, and live in peace by recognizing a Jewish state next door. Its not really that hard to do.

Launching missiles into other countries is an act of war. Don't be surprised when that other country invades you. Nor should you be surprised when you suffer civilian casualties.
----If you are not prepared to face such casualties, then don't make war.
The best way to be left alone and avoid things like war: is to not provoke military reactions by doing stupid things like launching missiles.
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Vegasaurus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-12-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Best post of the day
The Palestinians seem to think that they have something to gain by their "violent resistance".

All it has brought them is more restrictions and much more misery.

Instead of learning from that, they continue to provoke with their resistance, knowing that eventually, they will get clobbered/.

They wait a bit, and then try it again.

One has to wonder why they couldn't put the incredible energy spent "violently resisting", into something like building a state.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
15. I see the usual deniers and justifiers
refuse to even say that murdering Palestinian children is something they condemn. In the past some who share that same sort of supremacist outlook have even made comments to the effect that killing children just meant that the "terrorists" would have fewer young recruits available.

Those types of "argument" have a very long history in the US. They were recognized as racist by anyone with half a claim to being slightly progressive, and were openly, even proudly, acknowledged as being racist by the groups promoting such slaughters.

I suppose it's fortunate that arguing "killing kids is good practice and it was only a few hundred and they were of a lesser race anyway and some of their relatives or neighbors might have done something bad" is only encouraged in this one of the very many DU forums.
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pelsar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-13-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. that outlook .....is so irrelevant here
Edited on Sun Sep-13-09 01:16 AM by pelsar
the gaza war was not about supremacist views, racists views etc.....its was about stopping israelis from being terrorized as over 100,000 of them were for over 3 years.

perhaps its you who believe that they (israelis) are the "lesser" people and its ok to terrorize them at will...i don't know.....I am pretty sure that you dont have a realistic solution that would have actually stop the terrorism within a few days time....that hamas would agree to....and given the limited options i would bet your preference is that israel do nothing military to stop the kassams...with the result being continued terrorism.....
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