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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 12:54 PM
Original message
Mossad in hot seat over murder of Hamas man
<snip>

"Mossad is in the hot seat on Wednesday over the murder of a top Hamas man in Dubai, as at least seven Israelis said their identities were stolen by the assassins, widely thought to be agents of the Jewish state's storied secret service.

The killing of top Hamas militant Mahmud al-Mabhuh while on a weapons purchasing trip to Dubai last month has widely been blamed on the Mossad, although no evidence has yet linked the agency, which in keeping with tradition has kept mum on the affair.

But suspicions deepened after Dubai this week released details of the case that at times seem to have come straight from the pages of a spy thriller.

Mabhuh was killed by a hit squad of 11 Europeans -- six from Britain, three from Ireland, one from Germany and one from France -- with all but Berlin saying the passports had been faked.

A senior British lawmaker on Wednesday called for Israel's ambassador to be summoned over the affair."

more


UK probes fake passports in Hamas killing

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3850659,00.html

British PM Brown pledges 'full investigation' into how fake British passports were linked to killers of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. 'We are looking at this at this very moment," he notes, day after Britain says it believes six British passports held by members of 11-member hit team were fraudulent

<snip>

"British Prime Minister Gordon Brown pledged a "full investigation" Wednesday into how fake British passports were linked to the killers of a Hamas chief, amid calls here for Israel to explain its role.

"We are looking at this at this very moment," he told London's LBC radio, a day after Britain said it believed six British passports held by members of an 11-member hit team which killed Mahmud al-Mabhouh were fraudulent.

"We have got to carry out a full investigation into this. The British passport is an important document that has got to be held with care," he told London's LBC Radio.

"The evidence has got to be assembled about what has actually happened and how it happened and why it happened and it is necessary for us to accumulate that evidence before we can make statements."



Following alleged Dubai mess, the Mossad chief must go

<snip>

"An important figure with many followers goes overboard and gets exiled to a faraway village in the north. That creative solution comes courtesy of the rabbinical forum "Takana." But the sanction meted out to Rabbi Mordechai Elon should also be applied to another gentleman, who anyway already resides in the north: Maj. Gen. (ret.) Meir Dagan, the belligerent, heavy-handed chief of the Mossad.

The State of Israel did not claim responsibility for the assassination of Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai. The entire matter is treated as AFMR - According to Foreign Media Reports. We can still argue both sides of the broader issue at hand: assassinating senior officials in hotels (see under Rehavam Ze'evi) and in public (Imad Mughniyeh, Fathi Shkaki, Abbas Mussawi, Ali Hassan Salameh, and the list goes on). But we could also narrow the question to the quality of the performance in Dubai. And what must have seemed to its perpetrators as a huge success is now being overshadowed by enormous question marks.

If the perpetrators were from the Mossad (AFMR, of course), Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu must be walking around with an acute sense of deja vu. Once again, an assassination of a senior Hamas leader in a friendly Arab country; once again, an operation designed to kill someone quietly and inconspicuously; once again, a diplomatic mess; and once again, it is all happening on Netanyahu's watch. In 1997, it was Khaled Meshal in Jordan. This time, it's Mabhouh in Dubai.

The anticipated diplomatic crisis is not, so far, with Dubai, but with the countries whose passports were used by the assassins. The United Kingdom and Ireland were used once again, and this time, a French connection topped it off. It is as if Israeli governments had never apologized to London for using British documentation; as if they had not promised solemnly, when passports of Her Majesty's subjects were found in a certain phone booth, that this would never happen again.

This time, they didn't mess with feisty New Zealand. But other countries also do not tend to be forgiving of such insolent violations of their sovereignty. Italy, for instance, has engaged for the last few years in a merciless attack on the CIA, which abducted a suspected Egyptian terrorist on Italian soil (Mordechai Vanunu's abduction came decades too early), as well as on its own intelligence agencies, which assisted the American one. As soon as the abducted man's wife filed a complaint, the Italian judiciary ruled that it could not possibly avoid investigating and pressing charges. In Italy, like in Dubai, meticulous work was invested in collecting evidence against the suspects, mostly by going through cellular communications data and tracing credit card trails in hotels and other businesses."

more

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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
1. On the BBC tonight, one of the commentators/experts was saying Brown (or UK gov't)
has known about the fakes for a while now. And is only acting/investigating now since Dubai police went public.
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lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 01:01 PM
Response to Original message
2. Has Mossad become so sloppy now?
I mean, this sounds like amateur hour.
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unabelladonna Donating Member (483 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. which is why
it isn't the mossad.
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Please, it's not like mossad hasn't been caught being sloppy in the past.
They probably were counting on Dubai not going public with this stuff and being so thorough investigating. Foolish I know, but it's not the first time they've been foolish. Remember the time they got caught trying to poison someone in Jordon and Israel had to send the antidote? There was even forged Canadians passport involved.

"In 1997, two Mossad agents were caught in Jordan, which had signed a peace treaty with Israel, on a mission to assassinate Sheikh Khaled Mashal, a leader of Hamas, by spraying him with poison at a pro-Hamas rally in Amman. Again, they were using fake Canadian passports. This led to a diplomatic row with Canada and Jordan. Israel was forced to provide the antidote to the poison and to release around 70 Palestinian prisoners, in particular the Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, in exchange for the Mossad agents, who would otherwise have faced the death penalty for attempted murder."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mossad
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. Still touting the "guilty until proved innocent?"
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Where did I say they were most definitely 100% guilty anyways?
I did use the word "probably" somewhere in there, and that's a very strong probably at this point by the way. But no, nothing has been proven 100% as of yet, okay? Are you happy? Jesus Christ...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Where did I say you said anything about "100%?"
So, it is as I said, still "guilty until proved innocent." G-d, why not just own up to it?!
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Own up to what? My opinion isn't the word of law. Get over it.
Edited on Thu Feb-18-10 01:58 AM by Arrowhead2k1
How ridiculous to expect people to hold the same standards of reasonable doubt required by a freaking judge or whatever just to be able to carry on a discussion.

I think I've made my position clear enough, but of course I'm still open to being proven wrong. Let's see what happens. What might the defense morph into *if* Mossad is proven to have been behind this in the coming weeks *if* ever.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Another strawman?
I said nothing of your word being law, so why pretend otherwise? I am not erxpecting the same standards as a judge in regards to "reasonable doubt." (another strawman) However, I thought it was supposed to be "innocent until proved guilty." I guess you don't hold that standard to be true. Good to know.
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. What? My god man, this "innocent until proven guilty" line you keep tugging is meant only for the
courts! It's merely a constitutional right. Not a, "this is how you must form opinions about stuff going on around you, right." :rofl:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presumption_of_innocence

"First, the presumption is not a true presumption at all.<1> An objective observer in the position of the juror would reasonably conclude that the defendant probably committed the crime.<2> The observable facts clearly support such an inference - the defendant has been charged with a crime, is present in court, represented by an attorney and all the participants in a criminal trial are also present and ready to proceed.<3>

The presumption of innocence is in fact a legal instrument created by the law to favor the accused based on the legal inference that most people are not criminals.<4> It is literally considered favorable evidence for the accused that automatically attaches at trial.<5> It requires that the trier of fact, be it a juror or judge, begin with the presumption that the state is unable to support its assertion.<4> To ensure this legal protection is maintained a set of three related rules govern the procedure of criminal trials."


You see, it doesn't mean a damn thing when people make opinions. I find it ridiculous that you keep waving it around like they are magic words designed to shut people up.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Whatever.
You have shown you are what you are...Israel is guilty until proved otherwise.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. They never claimed or implied Israel is guilty until proven otherwise...
All they're guilty of is apparently not checking their PMs, but I wouldn't expect you to know anything about that side of things :)
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:24 AM
Original message
I wouldn't expect you to actual know of what you speak.
This isn't the first exchange with him/her about this topic.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. They didn't claim or imply what you said they did...
But I wouldn't expect you to actually knwo of what you speak...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. If you say so.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. Yr acccusing someone else of something they didn't say...stop pretending otherwise...
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Arrowhead2k1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. At this point, I'd be thoroughly surprised if they weren't.
They were certainly guilty of the same type of behaviour in the past. What reason would one have to believe that they aren't continuing with such policies? What's stopping them from forging more foreign passports in the future? You can't expect these things to change so long as they keep getting away with it with minimal diplomatic consequences.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. You didn't. Nor did you make out Israel was 'guilty until proven innocent' n/t
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 01:22 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. No, they weren't. Unabelladonna was touting the 'innocent until proven innocent line'
The poster yr claiming is 'still' touting a line merely pointed out that the Mossad had been sloppy in the past in response to the other posters claim that beacause it was sloppy it couldn't have been the Mossad. Hope that clears up any confusion! :)
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. if there are no consequences involved for the assassins, why not play amateur hour?
If the international community is willing to sanction Mossad hits on foreign soil (which it looks ready to do), then there's no need for a more professional operation. They could have held up signs in front of the video cameras reading "Brought to you by Mossad" and the outcome would still be the same.

Face it, in this world, Palestinian lives are valued . . . well, not at all.
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
7. arrogant would be a much better defination n/t
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Chulanowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. Mossad's never been subtle
They've just been immune to scrutiny.

When you're in the line of work like Mossad, you want people to know, or at least suspect who did it. it's a form of intimidation. Mossad also has the trump card of "...And there's nothing you can do about it."

It's just the Stern Gang with badges.
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stranger81 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-17-10 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. surprise, surprise . . . forged passports match the names of foreign residents living in Israel.
British authorities are investigating how six British nationals apparently had their identities stolen by suspected Mossad agents on a mission to assassinate a Hamas leader in Dubai.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office confirmed that the identities used by six members of the 11-strong hit squad were those of real British passport holders living in Israel. “We believe the passports used were fraudulent, and have begun our own investigation,” a spokesman said.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7029553.ece

But remember, kids, this wasn't a Mossad operation. Had nothing to do with Israel whatsoever. Move along, nothing to see here.
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
9.  Peace is impossible
until we reign in the Israelis madness.
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Yes, because clearly they are the only ones involved.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #10
19. I think you may have committed a strawman there! Could you throw in a free logical fallacy?
The poster said nothing at all about Israel being the only one involved...
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:22 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. You obviously don't recognize sarcasm. Perhaps I should have included the icon.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. Perhaps you should have. But you didn't, so you score a Strawman point! n/t
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:24 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. Not my fault you failed to understand. But it isn't at all surprising.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-18-10 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. I understand perfectly well. I wouldn't expect you to know of what you speak n/t
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