Pro-Mideast in America

[dtotire]

Pro-Mideast in America: Getting past 'Pro-Israel' and 'Pro-Palestine'
By Bradley Burston



Let's face it. Viewed from North America, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a dismal read.

Seen in full context, the confrontation is suffocatingly complex. As literature, it is paralytic, sullenly wordy. The plot, for all its spasms and blood, goes nowhere. As drama, the Israel-Palestine morass is the geopolitical equivalent of James Cameron's 1997 film "Titanic": interminable, exorbitant, unwieldy, dumb without just cause. Titanic-like, it tempts the observer to bail out in mid-course, seething under the breath "Sink, already! Just #*%&-ing sink!"

This may explain why it often seems that the only participants left standing - that is to say, still interested - in the debate over the future of Israel and Palestine, are extremists. These are the evangelists of the zero-sum. They are the activists for the One State Solution, that is, One State for My Side Alone. They are the misers of spirit who believe that this land cannot be big enough for the both of us.

They are the Jews for whom compromise is spelled Auschwitz, for whom pro-Israel is the same as anti-Palestinian, for whom pro-Israel also means there is no Palestine, there never was, nor will there be. For this brand of pro-Israeli, there are no Palestinians, and these Palestinians - who do not, in fact, exist, and who all came from somewhere else - lack all claims to morality, compassion, and historical legitimacy.

They are, as well, the Palestinians for whom accommodation is spelled collaboration, for whom pro-Palestinian also means There is no Israel, there never was, nor will there be. For this brand of pro-Palestinian , the Jews of today are not real Jews, descended from people who were once here, and these Jews - who are not, in fact, Jews, and who in any case all came from somewhere else - lack all claims to morality, compassion, and historical legitimacy.



read the rest;
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1150311.html

[LeftishBrit]

1. Really good article; says it all IMO

'At root, the struggle for peace in the Middle East is the fight of the Israelis and Palestinians against the extremists in their own midst.

We know this much, if nothing else. If we allow the extremists their victory, everyone will have lost'

Indeed!

'..someday, far in the future, we may find ourselves grateful for those who finally decided to navigate with their eyes and minds open, and steered an unfamiliar course, a route as yet uncharted, that took them to a Holy Land that, for once, was big enough for the two peoples that deserve to be there. '

I hope so.

www.allmep.org

www.onevoicemovement.org

www.bsst.org.uk

[Violet_Crumble]

4. Bradley Burston never used to impress me much. Lately he's on fire...

I dunno. Maybe he's going through a stage where his writing is awesome, or maybe I didn't pay enough attention to him and missed it, but I really like everything I've read from him lately. This article is one that no-one here at DU should have any sort of problem with...

[Ken Burch]

5. Was that BOTH of my "ignored's" posting back to back in posts 2 and 3, Violet?

n/t.

[stranger81]

7. Looks like one single "ignored." Five letters and starts with an "s."

You get three guesses, but the first two don't count.

[Ken Burch]

10. That means "ignored" answered HER OWN post.

:wtf:

[stranger81]

11. Yes, well, that poster particularly enjoys her own echo chamber. [n/t]

[Violet_Crumble]

31. Just the one replying to itself again...

You haven't missed anything at all :)

[shira]

2. What Does "Pro-Palestinian" Really Mean?

In recent years there has been a significant rise in the number of non-Palestinians who describe themselves as “pro-Palestinian” activists. These people can be found mostly on university campuses in North America and Europe.

What is striking is that many of these “pro-Palestinian” activists have never been to the Middle East, let alone the West Bank or the Gaza Strip. In most cases, they are not even Arabs or Muslims.

What makes them “pro-Palestinian”?

In their view, inciting against Israel on a university campus or publishing “anti-Zionist” material on the Internet is sufficient to earn them the title of “pro-Palestinian.” But what these folks have not realized is that their actions and words often do little to advance the interests of the Palestinians. In some instances, these actions and words are even counterproductive.

It is hard to see how organizing events such as “Israel Apartheid Week” on a university campus could help the cause of the Palestinians. Isn’t there already enough anti-Israel incitement that is being spewed out of Arab and Islamic media outlets?

If anyone is entitled to be called “pro-Palestinian,” it is those who are publicly campaigning against financial corruption and abuse of human rights by Fatah and Hamas. Those who are trying to change the system from within belong to the real “pro-Palestinian” camp.

These are the brave people who are standing up to both Fatah and Hamas and calling on them to stop killing each other and start doing something that would improve the living conditions of their constituents.

more...
http://www.hudsonny.org/2009/11/what-does-pro-palestinian-really-mean.php

[shira]

3. 3 examples in which "pro" Palestinians prove they are more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian

1. "A human rights group criticized Jordan on Monday for stripping the citizenship of nearly 3,000 Jordanians of Palestinian origin in recent years. Concerned about increasing numbers of Palestinians, who make up nearly half the population, Jordan began in 2004 revoking the citizenship from Palestinians who do not have Israeli permits to reside in the West Bank."

2. In 1990, Saddam Hussein ordered Iraqi forces to occupy Kuwait, claiming it was a province of his country. After the Iraqi military was ousted, Kuwaiti officials ordered the expulsion of 300,000 - 400,000 Palestinians who had been living in the country, in some cases for decades. The Palestinians were accused of having served as a fifth column for Iraq. Out they went.

3. Or how about the situation of Palestinians living in Lebanon? According to UNRWA, there are over 400,000 Palestinians registered with the UN agency. Most have been there for decades. In line with UNRWA policy, there is no mandate to resettle these Palestinians or future generations. Rather, they are deliberately kept as "refugees," unlike any other such population in the world. Meanwhile, the Lebanese government has adopted resolutions and decrees over the years effectively aimed at the Palestinians in the country. "Foreigners," meaning Palestinians, are restricted from working in over 70 different professions in Lebanon, including medicine, dentistry, law and accounting. Moreover, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon cannot today purchase property, and those who bought land before 2001 are barred from passing it on to their children. Only Lebanese citizens have the right to form non-governmental organizations. Palestinian refugees must do so through others since they are not accorded the chance to acquire Lebanese nationality.


Pretty draconian stuff. Yet, once again, where is the moral outrage of those who claim concern for the welfare of the Palestinian people? Why the telling silence?

Oh yes, I had forgotten. It's not Israel placing the stiff restrictions on Palestinian professional activity, land purchases, or the formation of civic associations, so it doesn't pass muster as a cause worth pursuing.

If this isn't a case of rank hypocrisy and transparent double standards, then what is?

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/harris/entry/rank_hypocrisy_and_transparent_double

[Tripmann]

6. Just to clarify...

....are you claiming a person cannot be pro-palestinian without being anti-israeli also?

[shira]

8. no, not at all

what do you think of those 2 articles?

[Tripmann]

17. I see. So you concede that it is possible to be pro-palestinian without being anti-israeli?

Its just that one of your posts is titled '3 examples in which "pro" Palestinians prove they are more anti-Israel than pro-Palestinian'.

You can see how some people might be getting a mixed message from you.

Could you amend your post to read 'some "pro" palestinians'

Thanks

[shira]

18. of course!

Do you disagree with the 2 articles?

[Tripmann]

19. Well I don't comment on blogs for starters

As for the article, I wouldn't agree with most of it.

Please feel free to create a thread to discoss it, we don't want to derail this one now, do we??

[stranger81]

9. Telling silence? The text you posted for your first example says plainly

that a human rights group protested Jordan's decision.

How is that silent? Did they protest in sign language?

[shira]

12. yes, if you had continued reading the original article you would have seen this...

"Apart from the scanty news coverage of what is, after all, an important story - thousands of people losing their citizenship as a country seeks to tilt its delicate demographic balance - there is, of course, another issue.

Apart from the group that blew the whistle on this years-old policy, where is the outcry?

When Israel is accused, however unjustly, of any alleged misdeed against the Palestinians, the din is immediate and deafening. But when fellow Arabs are shown to be inflicting real damage on the Palestinians, there's hardly a peep.

Since the story surfaced nearly a week ago, I've looked in vain for editorials, columns, op-ed pieces, or letters-to-the-editor on the citizenship policy. Couldn't find a thing.

I checked on the usual addresses that profess to care about the Palestinian fate - the UN General Assembly, UN Human Rights Council, UN Special Rapporteur on the Palestinian Territories, Arab League, Organization of the Islamic Conference, and Non-Aligned Movement, among others - and found nothing.

I looked at the usually loquacious individuals and groups for whom the Palestinian issue is the alpha and omega of human rights questions - the first and last example of refugees ever produced by conflict - and met a blank slate.

Silence from the mayor of Malmo. Silence from the London School of Economics Student Union. Silence from the British trade unionists who want to boycott Israel. Silence from the Norwegian academics who wish to shun their Israeli counterparts. Silence from those who seek to remove Israeli products from Trader Joe's and Carrefour supermarkets. Silence from the media outlets that can be counted on to slam Israel for every perceived violation of Palestinian rights. Well, you get the point.

In other words, when Israel takes action to defend itself, pro-Palestinian forces around the world are ready to mobilize at a moment's notice with emergency sessions, self-righteous indignation, heated resolutions, angry protests, boycotts, letter-writing campaigns and over-the-top ads.

Yet, these very same forces are AWOL if Israel is not involved. They simply can't be bothered. Suddenly, their self-described anguish over the Palestinian plight evaporates."

[stranger81]

13. I did see that.

The part that says, apart from the people protesting this, where are the people protesting this?

It's such a lame argument it deserves no response.

[shira]

14. i rest my case

I'm sure it just tears you apart that besides one lone organization there hasn't been a peep from the usual "pro-Palestinian" crowd about Jordan's abuse of their Palestinians.

[stranger81]

15. Umm, okay.

I have no idea why you think this has proved your point, but hey -- I can't figure out half of your posts anyway.

[shira]

16. it goes to show that the usual "pro Palestinian" crowd is really "anti Israel"

They couldn't care less about Palestinians. They do, however, love to irrationally hate Israel.

You think only one organization would report on this problem if Israel were responsible?

[Tripmann]

20. I'm sure if jordan started dropping bombs on gaza

there would be protests.

By the way, the same 'usual pro-palestinian crowd' are exactly the same people that marched against the invasion of Iraq.

I'm failing to see your point.

[shira]

24. I doubt it

Egypt just recently closed off all humanitarian aid to Gaza and there has been virtual silence from the pro-Palestinian world in comparison to what they normally protest...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1141345.html

Need more examples?

[stranger81]

21. It does nothing of the kind, Shira.

That story tries to argue that no one is protesting this decision, while in fact pointing out that people ARE protesting that decision. And HRW is by no means the only voice challenging Jordan. As you well know, there has been a lot of discussion about that decision here, much of it critical (and not just from folks like you who don't care about the ramifications of the decision itself, but find it a useful tool to deflect criticism of Israel).

[shira]

22. oh come on

You know damned well those 3 examples are enough in themselves to show that most "pro-Palestinians" are silent on such MAJOR issues in comparison to anything perpetrated, real or imagined, by Israel.

No big rallies. No UN declarations. No blog explosions on these matters.

Just virtual silence in comparison.

No different than the silence WRT Hamas' exploitation of Palestinians as expendable pawns...

In light of the sweeping conclusions regarding Israel, the very careful phrasing regarding Hamas abuses is particularly conspicuous. The mission did not find conclusive evidence regarding Hamas' use of mosques and civilian buildings for military purposes, nor does it criticize Hamas' firing from and shielding themselves within civilian areas. The evidence accumulated over the past eight months regarding both these phenomenon cannot be ignored.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jessica-montell/the-goldstone-report-on-g_b_306500.html

You see, something that Btselem says shouldn't be ignored is ignored by HRW, AI, Goldstone, and most anti-Israel "pro" Palestinians. Why is that? I shouldn't have to explain to you how horrible Hamas' behavior is towards Palestinians in Gaza, should I?

[Tripmann]

23. So, lets get this straight....

the fact that people weren't out protesting palestinian expulsions, citizenship strippings and restrictions, but protested Israel dropping bombs and blockading Gazans, proves that they're anti-israel?

[shira]

25. why can't they do all the above since they're "pro"-Palestinian?

Protest Egypt blocking all humanitarian aid to Gaza.
Protest Jordan's stripping Palestinians of citizenship.
Protest conditions in Lebanon for refugees.
Protest what Kuwait did in expelling hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.
Protest against Hamas using Palestinians as shields.
Protest and work for democracy and real human rights within Gaza.
Protest against incitement and antisemitism within the Palestinian territories.
Fight against corruption in the PA.

As well as protest against Israel?

=========

If the protests were half as strong as they are against Israel, we'd be a lot closer to real, lasting peace.

[azurnoir]

26. So you decided to post the link this time

thanks for saving me the trouble the complete quote

This is not to say that the report has no faults. I was disturbed by the framing of Israel's military operation as part of "an overall policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population for its resilience." The facts presented in the report itself would not seem to support such a far-reaching conclusion. In light of the sweeping conclusions regarding Israel, the very careful phrasing regarding Hamas abuses is particularly conspicuous. The mission did not find conclusive evidence regarding Hamas' use of mosques and civilian buildings for military purposes, nor does it criticize Hamas' firing from and shielding themselves within civilian areas. The evidence accumulated over the past eight months regarding both these phenomenon cannot be ignored.

I have a question for Ms Montell what was Hamas shooting at? If IDF was not trying to attack civilian targets? as to the use of mosques and civilian buildings that may be true but it still does not explain why IDF would chose to attack said mosques during prayer services care to finally comment on that?

[shira]

27. so you doubt what Montell from B'tselem is reporting?

As for the mosque incident that Goldstone brings up in TV interviews, it's difficult to know what to believe - him, his witnesses, or his report?
http://harris-adhoc.blogspot.com/

When you figure out what really happened at the Mosque, let me know. Goldstone didn't handle this episode well at all.

[azurnoir]

30. There is no question what happened

IDF bombed the mosque during evening prayers whether or not so and so's mum was on the first floor or in the basement at the time changes nothing

as to Ms Montell I do not question what she said I asked a question regarding the circumstances once agian if Hamas was shooting from civilian area's what were they shooting at? It would seem that IDF was attacking civilian centers would it not, what is being called human sheilding by Hamas is in reality modern urban warfare

[Violet_Crumble]

32. Az, yr letting her derail yet another thread...

I'm getting sick of seeing every thread she appears in getting derailed into being about Goldstone or Montell. It's even more annoying in this case because the OP was an excellent one which deserves to be discussed, and unfortunately you and Tripmann are allowing Shira to steer discussion away from it...

on edit: btw, my annoyance isn't at you, Tripmann, stranger or anyone else in this thread who takes the bait. I just wanted to come back and make sure you guys know that coz I've been sucked into pointless thread derailments plenty of times before :)

[shira]

34. the OP was about being pro-Mideast......my posts were about "pro-Palestinians"

It was AZ who took this off track by focusing on Montell, who brought up the issue of Hamas human shields - which for some reason pro-Palestinians couldn't give a shit about, leading us back to what defines "pro Palestinian".

[azurnoir]

35. Post # 22 shira

you not I brought Montell into this and I will admit I was being lazy in answering you here

[shira]

37. so you should have focused on why pro-Palestinians cannot be bothered with

...the facts that B'tselem says shouldn't be ignored.

You could have either written that pro-Palestinians are VERY concerned about the welfare of Palestinians under Hamas control, or that it's a shame pro-Palestinians aren't doing enough to help Palestinian human shields of Hamas.

Then there wouldn't have been any derailment.

[azurnoir]

39. Lol nice try doesn't wash

VC is right you were trying to derail and I humored you

[shira]

45. poor form.....why not get back to the point?

Do you feel pro-Palestinians are doing what they can to help Palestinian victims of Hamas, or regrettably they're not doing enough? Same question applies to Jordanian citizenship, Lebanese treatment of Palestinians, state-sponsored incitement and brainwashing by the PA and Hamas, etc.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. No, yr posts were other articles where you didn't discuss the OP at all..

You tried to derail this thread as you constantly do to others. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't give a shit what you define pro-Palestinian as, as it's bound to be ugly and hateful where you pretend that people who support the Palestinian cause are all exactly the same and that you somehow know better than any of them how and why they think. So unless you have something to say about the OP itself, I won't be helping you derail this thread any further and I hope the others do the same thing. Continue talking to yrself, Shira...

[shira]

38. whatever you say

[azurnoir]

40. Sorry but there were misrepresentations

being presented as facts which did have bearing IMO on the OP

[Violet_Crumble]

41. Like what? n/t

[azurnoir]

42. The Jordanians expelling Palstinians

to change the demographics of Jordan, which is quite demonstrably ludicrous, it was part of the proPalestinian often means antiIsraeli post, ms s brought up something from another thread that I had not yet replied to as a distraction and yes I was being lazy in doing it here

[Violet_Crumble]

43. Okay...

To be honest I didn't even bother reading past the first few lines of those two derailing articles that were posted. I think I might go back and reread the OP though and address it in some detail and maybe get the thread back on track :)

[azurnoir]

47. Not a big but I must correct my term expelling

the Jordanian government apparently revoked the citizenship of 3000 Palestinians they did not expel them as such but it should be pointed out that during the same time period Jordan also granted 5000 Palestinians citizenship

that was necessary lest some "truth troll" happen by

[shira]

33. you need to read more carefully about the Mosque incident

It isn't just contradictions that you mentioned, but it's about when the compressed prayers started, whether an airborne missile or some flat-trajectory mortar grenade from the ground was shot at the entrance of the mosque, which wouldn't BTW cause secondary explosions if it didn't detonate inside the mosque.

It's about Goldstone modifying his story each time, to the point that in one of his later interviews the casualty count went up from 15 to 21, the missile turned out to be shot from IDF ground troops, which contradicts his eyewitness testimony of nothing militarily happening outside on the ground, and of course contradicts the findings in the Goldstone Report (which makes it seem an IDF helicopter or Jet just randomly fired at the mosque). Also, in these later interviews Goldstone for the 1st time mentioned tungsten squares found by his mission in the walls of the mosques - amazingly strong evidence which for some reason never made it into the Goldstone Report.

Seven out of 15 dead at the Mosque were Hamas and Islamic Jihad, which means that if Goldstone were right that the IDF intentionally tried to bomb the mosque, they did a really bad job of firing only at the outside of the mosque and not the mosque itself. They also somehow were fortunate to get 7 fighters in their dastardly quest to kill only civlians.

:eyes:

=========

As for Montell, you were shown evidence Hamas deliberately wore civilian attire to mix in with civilians while fighting. Is that part of what you perceive to be "urban warfare"? When they commandeered ambulances and hid in hospitals, boobytrapped homes and schools, fired rockets from densely populated neighborhoods, that's just "urban warfare"?

[azurnoir]

28. I have read several articles on the issue of Jordan

stripping Palestinians of citizenship and jpost's hyperventalating on this issue crosses the line to sheer dishonesty the group which the article fails to mention was HRW and the reason for that failure IMO is because the premise as you posted here is ridiculous on it's face

"Apart from the scanty news coverage of what is, after all, an important story - thousands of people losing their citizenship as a country seeks to tilt its delicate demographic balance - there is, of course, another issue.

let's look closer

this is the thread posted 2/2/10 about this were the athour of the article attempts to sneak in that demographics issue too but there is a problem HRW doesn't mention it why because as any 4th grader with a calculator could tell you 3000 out of 3,000,000 is less than 1%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=124&topic_id=299396

this issue was discussed here last July, this is a article from that thread that gives a more complete picture and a link to the thread it self

AMMAN - Authorities are not withdrawing nationalities from Jordanians of Palestinian origin in an unjustified manner, a parliamentary representative said on Thursday.

Chairperson of the House Freedoms Committee Fakhri Daoud said the committee received many complaints from people saying that authorities withdrew their Jordanian passports without cause.

“We summoned the minister of interior to clarify this issue, and found that what was said is not true,” Daoud told the press following the meeting with the minister.

“Authorities were only implementing the 1989 administrative and legal disengagement between Jordan and the West Bank,” Daoud said, adding that figures provided by the ministry this year are almost similar to the previous years.

In 1989, when Jordan disengaged from the West Bank, all Palestinians residing in the West Bank were considered Palestinian, while others in the diaspora with Jordanian passports were considered Jordanian.

The decision was made to allow the Palestine Liberation Organisation to act as the sole and legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.

Following the disengagement, Jordan issued yellow cards to Palestinians in Jordan and the diaspora holding Jordanian passports, which entitled these individuals to the full rights of Jordanian citizenship.

Palestinians in the West Bank who had family living in Jordan were issued green cards, which entitled them to temporary Jordanian passports to facilitate travel but did not grant them citizenship rights.

Palestinians with yellow cards who return to Palestine and receive recognition as nationals under either Israeli or Palestinian law revoke their right to a yellow card and are issued a green card when they renew their passports. Conversely, Palestinians with green cards may be granted yellow cards in certain circumstances, such as when their parents reside in Jordan and hold yellow cards.

According to figures cited by the deputy, authorities replaced 190 yellow cards with green ones and 5,130 green cards with yellow ones in the period between March 1 and June 30, 2009, compared to replacing 204 yellow cards with green and 4,139 green with yellow in the same period in 2008.

The figures also show that 244 people were issued green cards, while 2,696 were issued yellow cards in the same period of 2007.

“The rumours about this issue are the result of the political developments in the region,” Daoud quoted the minister as saying.

Interior officials have defended the procedures saying that they are meant to counter Israeli policies to “empty the Palestinian lands from their legitimate residents”.

http://www.jordantimes.com/?news=18480&searchFor=citize...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

also here is HRW's press release on this issue but still I would commend HRW for taking up this issue and hopefully there will be justice for the people affected

http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/02/01/jordan-stop-withd...

[shira]

29. it was reported in the NYT by AP

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/02/world/middleeast/02briefs-Jordan.html

This all happened between 2004-2008 and was just reported by HRW in 2010. Where were they all that time when they could have made a difference?

Revoking the citizenship of 3000 Palestinians isn't anything to scoff at.

Since HRW's press release, where have all the usual 'pro' Palestinian suspects been on this issue?

[LeftishBrit]

44. I agree that the Arab states are far less pro-Palestinian in actions than in words

and that there is a lot of Middle Eastern and related hypocrisy on the whole matter.


I also agree that Westerners, whether they consider themselves 'pro-Israel' or 'pro-Palestinian', often tend to be only aware of Middle Eastern problems, when they involve the West directly, or when they involve Israel which is seen as allied to the West. I think it was Pelsar who said something to the effect that the statement 'If not for Israel, the Middle East would be at peace' really means 'If Israel isn't involved, the wars in the Middle East probably wouldn't appear very much on my Western television screen'.

However, I think that the author is getting somewhat embroiled in petty matters here. It is certainly relevant that the UN does not do much about Arab abuses of Palestinians, and that the Arab League is quite ready to permit them. It is relevant (to a number of issues, not just this one) that the Western media tends not to focus so much on the majority of non-Western conflicts. (A parallel issue is that Al Quaeda and other terrorist organizations are much more likely to be reported when they attack Western than non-Western targets. E.g. I wonder how many British or Americans are fully aware that most victims of Al Quaeda are Muslims?)

But I don't think it matters very much what a small noisy minority of British trade unionists, members of the LSE students union, some Norwegian academics, or the Mayor of Malmo do or don't do with regard to Jordan, or Israel if it comes to that. Speaking as a British citizen, and an anti-boycott member of a British trade union where activists have proposed such a boycott, I can say that no British trade union has got close to a real boycott of Israel; a small group of activists passing a resolution does not mean an actual boycott of Israel. Most activists of this sort couldn't run, or even boycott, a whelk stall, let alone Israel or Jordan. The LSE students union also has no real power. Most Norwegian academics weren't collaborating with their Israeli, or for that matter Jordanian, counterparts anyway (but I myself do collaborate with some Norwegian academics, and can assure you that there is no boycott there either!). And who the hell is the Mayor of Malmo?

In any case, though even Israeli-Palestinian peace would hardly solve all of the problems of the Middle East, it is a worthy goal to work for, and is after all the main subject of this forum.

[shira]

46. but the same goes for most people who fancy themselves as being 'pro' Palestinian

Where's the UN? Where are all the street protests? Online petitions?

Either they don't know (which tells us something about the "pro" Palestinian blogosphere, websites, wherever they get their I/P information, etc...) or they simply don't care.

[LeftishBrit]

49. True of many. But the same goes for many who call themselves pro-Israel

Many in both categories can see Israel only in its role as American ally; and include xenophobic-isolationists and mirror-image-ists (my term for those who simply reverse the roles in the Bushian concept of the 'axis of evil') on the one side, and culture-warriors and neocon-imperialists on the other. That's even when you leave the frank antisemites and Islamophobes out of it.

[Violet_Crumble]

48. I remember how you roused on someone for putting all pro-Israel supporters in the same basket...

Yet here's a thread where Shira's doing the exact same thing to pro-Palestinian supporters and you don't rouse on her at all.

[LeftishBrit]

50. Huh? I've just said that the same strictures can often apply to both groups...

and I'm not quite sure which post you're talking about; but it would depend on what sort of 'basket' the person put them in. If they said that all pro-Israel people are ignorant or biased or hypocritical, I probably would have reacted as here. If they said that all pro-Israel people are genocidal or traitors or something, I would have reacted more strongly - as I would if they said that all pro-Palestinians are terrorists.

[Violet_Crumble]

51. I think yr message would have gotten lost amongst the 'I agree with you' bits...

See, I do remember where you roused on someone for doing the same thing to pro-Israelis and the person wasn't putting them in the genocidal traitor basket. There was none of the 'I agree with you that...' stuff that there was with Shira. It was something I noticed, that's all...

[shira]

52. another false accusation? where did I write all?

[Violet_Crumble]

53. I didn't say you wrote all. You really need to read more carefully n/t